Quicktime PN versus P2 PN

[jam100]

Hi. A newbie to version 3.0 Firestore, and am trying to figure out which format to use. I am shooting a documentary, and I am editing ultimately in FCP (will be backing up all footage to a hard drive and then later on editing).

I'm not sure what the difference is between the two modes- Quicktime PN and P2 PN - that one selects on the Firestore - is there a quality difference? Why would you choose one over the other? Any help appreciated.

Also, and this is a bit of a doozy - I am looking for a straighforward description of a production workflow when using the HVX with Firestore- how to back up at end of day, tips on folders to create for minimum confusion later on during post, etc. - I have used the Firestore before and found the file naming confusion to be terrible- especially when one has shot a bunch of footage.

Thanks.

[Jason Ramsey]

Probably not any quality loss. Just a quicktime wrapper which makes the workflow for FCP users a bit more efficient. If you are editing on a mac, I don't see why you wouldn't want to just record quicktime p2. That way you don't have to have both an mxf and a quictime wrapped version of your footage on your HDD, taking up space. And you don't have to spend time re-wrapping your footage. But, like I said I'm not familiar with the worklfow, so there may be some circumstances where this isn't the optimal workflow for you.

There is a short article by barry in the article's section called Rescuing.... when you forgot.... something... something...

You might check it out as a starter.

Later,
Jason

[RossS]

I was hoping someone would be answering jam as I am going to be in the same boat very shortly. Has anyone posted a stick here or on Creative Cow regarding this workflow?

[THoff]

Panasonic has a document on their website that explains the FCP workflow, and it covers P2 cards as well as the FS-100:

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/papers/WP_P2Workflow_FCP.pdf

[David Saraceno]

I've shot both.

There is no quality difference as far as I or my staff can see.

[yachtclubav]

I have had problems with some quicktime clips not being read after copying them to my drive. you then need to go into the fs100 and repair those clips and from what i can tell it gets the clip repaired, but leaves a bunch of vid noise at the tail. i quit using qt Pn because this was more of a pain than converting the p2 files overnight which i've never had a problem doing.

anthony

[shm]

Barry- can you weigh in on this workflow? P2 pn vs QT pn

[David Saraceno]

Barry- can you weigh in on this workflow? P2 pn vs QT pn

What specific questions do you have about workflow?

There are many of us who own FS and v.3 and use it in FCP.

I don't think Barry uses FCP.

[Luis Caffesse]

I've been shooting 2 online series for the past few months using the FS-100 and the HVX (and the occassional P2 card).
There is absolutely NO difference in the quality of the footage when shooting P2 vs Quicktime modes. The quicktimes you get on the FS-100 are identical to the quicktimes you get after importing P2 footage into FCP. Both are DVCproHD files (or DVCpro50, etc) with identical specs - no difference in quality whatsoever.

Why would you choose one over the other?

P2 MXF files come with alot of 'metadata' goodies that some people find very helpful.
Quicktime files do not.

Some editing programs out there can edit MXF files directly, most cannot.
When using FCP, I personally like being able to just copy my footage over to my system, and import the quicktimes directly - as opposed to having to go through the P2 import process.

SO - in the end, it's really just personal perference.

NOW - as far as organizing. If you are shooting a longform project over a long period of time - you MIGHT want to consider shooting MXF files instead of quicktimes. It will take you alot longer to import the footage into FCP, but it will give you the option of logging the footage upon import - in which case you can go through it, change file names, make notes, etc. Granted, it's alot more work, but your FCP project will be much more organized that way.

My projects at the moment are essentially shortform one offs.
I have a 1 day shoot - and all the footage from that shoot is used on 1 episode.
So, I don't have alot of footage to keep organized and I don't mind keeping the QT files named as they are out of the FS100.

If you do wind up using QT on the firestore - I can't stress to you enough that you should make sure your Date/Time is set correctly on your firestore. The FS100 names clips and folders based on the Date/Time they are created. It's much easier to make sense of the names if the FS100 has the correct date/time to go off of.


One last time - as far as backing up at the end of the day - I highly recommmend backing up the FS100 immediately upon getting back from the shoot.
Copy over your files, verify they copied correctly, and then wipe the FS100 clean by formatting it again as soon as you are done.
The only reason I stress that you do it immediately is so you get into the habit - train yourself so that the shoot is not 'over' until the footage has been copied and the FS100 is empty once again. That way, you'll never do what I did the first time...

I was worried about formatting the FS100 again for some reason. I didn't want to erase it until I absolutely HAD to.
Of course, that meant the next time I went to go shoot, I got on set - realized the FS100 was full of footage...and then had to sit there and second guess myself. "Did I dump this footage?" "I must have" "Well if I dumped it, then why didn't I erase it?"

Get in the habit.
Find a routine that works for you and stick to it, so that it becomes second nature.
That way you'll never be second guessing yourself as to when and where your footage got backed up.
http://www.pitchproductions.com/pics/wookiethumb.gif

Good luck with your project.

[shm]

Thanks David...I do have some questions....

We have been using the P2 format with the Firestore up until the update. I have not yet shot with the QT format option. We have also tried the the P2 PN format. Is there any difference between the two? Should FCP users always use QT? Why would you use the P2 format (over the QT) with the FS-100?

Also - I can't get the Firestore to recognize the TC from the camera when set to Rec run. Is there another setting I need to set up?

Also, P vs pn...if the project is NOT going to film..can I shoot in PN and edit in a 29.97 format?...or is that a goofy workflow? I know it saves HD space but is it going to cause me headaches in post?

Thanks David (in advance)

Steve

[shm]

Thanks Luis...you just answered some of my questions :)

How about my TC question? and PN vs P?

Thanks
Steve

[Luis Caffesse]

I'm not the guy to answer your TC question - I haven't gotten that deep into the TC ramifications of the FS100, as it doesn't really affect my shoots.

As far as PN vs P with a 29.97 timeline ?
I guess I'm confused.

If you are recording PN - then I assume you are recording 720
(as the PN mode is only used in 720 as far as I know)

I'm not sure why you'd want to edit in a 29.97 timeline?
Are you shooting 30fps in 720?

Maybe you can clarify a bit for me as to what format & framerates you plan on shooting in, and what your final output is going to be for this project.

[David Saraceno]

Two reasons: meta data and the ability of other NLEs to access the mxf files.

There does appear to be any difference between pn and QT pn in quality to my eye and others as well.

[shm]

I'm not the guy to answer your TC question - I haven't gotten that deep into the TC ramifications of the FS100, as it doesn't really affect my shoots.

As far as PN vs P with a 29.97 timeline ?
I guess I'm confused.

If you are recording PN - then I assume you are recording 720
(as the PN mode is only used in 720 as far as I know)

I'm not sure why you'd want to edit in a 29.97 timeline?
Are you shooting 30fps in 720?

Maybe you can clarify a bit for me as to what format & framerates you plan on shooting in, and what your final output is going to be for this project.


sorry for the confusion...here's some history

we have been shooting with the DVX and HVX in progressive mode and NOT Pa or PN respectively
we have been importing as normal "DV 29.97" basically just to have the look or feel of 24p
final output is interlaced DVD

our workflow is obviously changing....I suppose now using PN we can keep the project Progressive all the way thru the process....meaning

shoot 720p 24pn

edit 24 p timeline

output progressive DVD


...so I guess my question is since there is a conversion in DVD studio pro so that someone with an interlaced TV can watch the program...when best does that conversion take place? meaning

example one -

shoot 720p 24pn

edit 29.97 timeline (if possible) (conversion)

output interlaced DVD

OR example two-

shoot 720p 24pn

edit 24 p timeline

output progressive DVD (with pull down conversion to an interlaced setup)


I can't think of a situation where one would shoot standard P over PN......would it be just to get the look of 24p in an interlaced product? ...and also not care that it's eating up more HD space on the Firestore?

...sorry for all the questions...I have done searches but it's hard getting all the pieces together...THANKS all for responding...hope these examples make sense

Steve

[Luis Caffesse]

Okay, now it's making sense.
So now all your footage will be 720?

I would definitely say you should shoot 720PN @ 24fps, edit on a 23.98fps timeline, and encode your DVD from your 23.98fps master.

You'll take up less space on your hard drives.
You won't have to render any footage or audio when you drop it into the timeline.
AND, you'll actually get a slightly higher bitrate on your DVDs because you won't be encoding duplicate frames.