should I get PAL or NTSC?

[Eric H]

we are in the market to get the HVX....we travel, use the camera mostly in 720 or 1080, if not exclusively. Although we do most of our final output downconverting to PAL.......we thought of getting the NTSC version since we can shoot 60fps rather than 50fps which is the top speed for the PAL version. it is not much of a speed difference, but every little bit counts.
any PAL users out there that use the NTSC version? any feedback?
thanks,
Eric

[majormorgan]

Hiya,

I'm a PAL user. The thing that would clinch it for me is that the NTSC or 60hz version as they prefer it to be called needs to compromise on something to record those extra 5 frames per second. And it does this according to Barry's HVX book by recording a smaller frame width for 1080 mode.

50 Hz is recorded 1440 x 1080 I remember [apologies if thats wrong] whilst the 60hz is recorded at 1280x1080 resulting in a smaller resolution in the horizontal. Then on playback all the images get blown up to 1920x1080 so the Pal will have a quality edge in the horizontal.

Of course we've been used to seeing TV with almost half the horizontal resolution being blown up to 16x9 from a full height anamorphic 4x3 transmission, but the TV qualities are lower so the wider shaped pixels on the TVs blur anything thats a problem. On HD screens and expecting higher quality that may be a more noticable issue.

No doubt people will say that its potentially hard to see the difference between 50Hz 1080 and 60hz 1080 but the camera image data is still there.

If you end up in PAL then I'd say stick to it otherwise you have to do frame rate conversions of real time footage to get it to go from 29.97 or 24 to 25 fps.

Its up to you but that's my thing.

Thanks

Majormorgan

[iDV8]

I've heard that some PAL users try to get ahold of NTSC but I wasn't aware of what the advantage was but now that makes sense to me.
This won't matter to most people but if you have any intention to transfer to film, PAL is the way to go because I've been told there is a "noticable" difference.

[gi-jones]

How about the framerates? I have a PAL version of the camera and apparantly it doesn't have the option of shooting 24p. That might be something to consider as well.

[majormorgan]

No 24p in PAL, yes you are right. The way round is when you output to film, frame print each frame from your film based on a 24p timeline and by using every frame you end up with a film that is 1/25th or 4% longer. You then have to correct your final soundtrack by slowing it down so that it is 104% of the original length, but you'll need to ensure that the retiming isn't a pitch shift method.

Its the reverse of what happens when a 24fps film [all cinema releases] is transferred to video, TV or DVD. They frame print each frame on a 25p timebase and then speed up the soundtrack with no pitch shift. This has been done for many many years now.

It all depends on what you need the camera for.

Majormorgan

[Filip Staresinic]

So is there any way to achieve 24p look with PAL version, may be in post production? Because 24p from 25p is not that far.

[Barry_Green]

Yes, the 25p mode is very filmic and is the appropriate mode to shoot in if you're in a PAL country and will be showing your work on a PAL television.

[lawriejaffa]

Ugh i know, how many times do you have to say FILM is shot at 25frames too... so its not like it has to be the sacred 24 to look like the film...

24/25 i wish folks would just know this!!! I mean even when you shoot film in the UK for example, you would be psychotic to shoot it at 24 (given the post work) so obviously... OBVIOUSLY it will be 25p for pal, and obviously will still look filmic *breathes deep* okay... must take a sedative!

[majormorgan]

Except if I shot FILM in the UK for a primarily theatrical release I'd shoot it 24 FPS and then the DVD and TV distributors worry about it as they have done for over 40 years at least.

If I shot FILM and its target was primarily DVD or TV with no theatrical release then I'd shoot 25fps. Then if a seperate blow up to film was required, we'd print out framewise [like I said before] with the increased length soundtrack.

25P is still very filmic. so don't let it put you off the 50Htz camera

Majormorgan

[Simon Höfer]

So what do you think how handicaped would somebody be, working in a PAL country but using a ntsc camera (hvx200)?

For example if you want to do some work for normal television companies?

Especially looking forward to the High Definition time. Actually there is no more PAL or NTSC, right? How about the HD frame rates? Which framerates are the broadcasting companies using? Of course only if they have any HD channels. And also thinking about the fact that German/European countries are using the P2 system more and more. (thread by Barry Green: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=98062)

And as far as I know, all LCD, TFT and plasma displays can show 25p and 30p, but only very few are able to display 24p, or?

Even though it might not be the right part of the forum, is it possible to convert ntsc footage into pal in a good way? Or maybe just HD footage using 24 frames or 30 frames into 25 frames? I know it is quite a complicated topic itself, so I just would like to know, if there is a possibility that European tv staions would accept the provided video.

Thanks for any answers and hello to all by the way :)

Simon

PS: I am sorry that I posted an ebay link in the marketplace area. Reading here for a few month, but not reading the marketplace rules *shame on me*. Such a great community here! Sadly nearly everybody is from America. I wish we had a community like this in Germany.

[Filip Staresinic]

25P is still very filmic. so don't let it put you off the 50Htz camera

Majormorgan[/quote]

You say 25P is still very filmic, from other side it means it is less filmic than 24P. And that is the main reason that bothers me. Among other things this camera is known to have 24P(not25P) to give a film look.
I will buy HVX200 a famous 24P camcorder, pay more than people in america and actualy won't get 24p camcorder? I am not so woried about missing of 60P as I wont use it that much.
Are you want to say that all movies that we wach on TV here in europe are 25P. I don't think soo. If it is filmed on location with 24P I think it will allways have that look, that feel of objects moving in the film. Normal video is recorded about 30p, and you see there how movings are more detailed and smooth, and that is video look. So 25 is closer to video look than 24. One of the MAIN reasons if not the main,I think why we like this camera is ability to come closer to film look than other digital cameras in this price range. So I will get camera that will have less film look than cameras of people in the NTSC area, for the same money?
If somebody can say PAL version footage when all ases of acheeving film look are on is not closer to a video look than NTSC version in the same presets then I will be calmed. Can anybody say that?

[lawriejaffa]

Look man, check what film is shot on!

It is shot on 25 and 24 frames per second. Its not 24 that has the sacred cow look, its the fact that there full frames.

If you check the recommended book The Guerilla Guide to Filmmaking by Chris Jones, the point is made very clearly there.

Its very noobish thing i think to imagine that 24 is more filmic than 25, in the UK or PAL land you are nuts to shoot a low budget film on anything but frames especially given the editing and all the other issues that would result.

[THoff]

Filip, if you think the 4% extra frames per second is what will be holding you back rather than the lighting, audio, composition, color correction, editing etc., then by all means go ahead and get the NTSC camera. I think your energies and funds should be focused elsewhere.

[iDV8]

It depends on what the end product is. If you're shooting for UK Tv then you probably don't want to mess with NTSC. Since you're trying to achieve a "film look" you're probably shooting short films. NTSC and PAL footage is shared all over the world, you have to do some slight altering if you want a perfect look but most people don't notice when you play an NTSC DVD on a PAL tv and visa versa. Most people will watch a standard 4:3 tv show stretched to 16:9 (makes me crazy). I live in France (PAL) but I bought an NTSC HVX camera because I could almost buy two in America for the same price as one here. A lot of my stuff will go to the US so it's ready to go. The other stuff for Europe will be altered a bit. Unless you've got two giant HD tvs next to each other are you really going to see the difference?

[Filip Staresinic]

I've done lot of editing.composition, lighting and audio etc. And everyone says that the frame rate is what makes it most look like film. And I allways heard that 24 is standard in film, I don't know what to espect from 25. Hence my worry.
My worry about this and look for small detail is in every aspect of film making. You know there are lot of tiny details that we worry about when we make film but 99% of people will never be aware of those details but it goes in their under consciousnes, and takes huge inpact on their judgment at the end. I repeat I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO ESPECT FROM 25. Just this camera costs and is kinda no return way. If I mistake with light or could find better angle to shoot I can return and make it better. I can try more color corrections but I am not able to try camera here where I live before I buy it.
But I will buy it, in a fact I allready bought it cause there is no better solution for this money, and I will buy PAL, trusting everyone. I am 95% convinced that this is good, the rest 5% I'll judge when I see it.

[Simon Höfer]

So what do you think how handicaped would somebody be, working in a PAL country but using a ntsc camera (hvx200)?

For example if you want to do some work for normal television companies?

Especially looking forward to the High Definition time. Actually there is no more PAL or NTSC, right? How about the HD frame rates? Which framerates are the broadcasting companies using? Of course only if they have any HD channels. And also thinking about the fact that German/European countries are using the P2 system more and more. (thread by Barry Green: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=98062)

And as far as I know, all LCD, TFT and plasma displays can show 25p and 30p, but only very few are able to display 24p, or?

Even though it might not be the right part of the forum, is it possible to convert ntsc footage into pal in a good way? Or maybe just HD footage using 24 frames or 30 frames into 25 frames? I know it is quite a complicated topic itself, so I just would like to know, if there is a possibility that European tv staions would accept the provided video.

Thanks for any answers and hello to all by the way :)

Simon

PS: I am sorry that I posted an ebay link in the marketplace area. Reading here for a few month, but not reading the marketplace rules *shame on me*. Such a great community here! Sadly nearly everybody is from America. I wish we had a community like this in Germany.
Does nobody have any more experience in this field of work? I would really appreciate any suggestions.

[Jason Ramsey]

Normally I would of course say to get the camera that is appropriate for your region... but I just want to throw this into the mix...

I am in Indonesia and we shot some 24p NTSC stuff and burned a 24p NTSC dvd... it has played back perfectly in every dvd player and every tv we have put it on so far... From a crappy little dvd player on a crappy little tv, to a ntsc/pal dvd player on a crappy tv, to a decent dvd player on an hdtv... all glass smooth.

As a matter of fact (being that everyone here is so poor) most of the movies people buy are black market ntsc dvd's... and they play fine in their pal equipment...

Just so you know....

if there is a reason you really care about one fps then ntsc 'should' work fine... but that is not a guarantee... I would say if you are shooting ntsc, then make your final output ntsc, rather than messing around with converting, etc. But, that only works depending on where your product is headed. To an individual, mastering an ntsc dvd should be perfectly fine....

Anyways, we are only doing this for a demo reel of footage, that will ultimately be displayed in hd anyways, and not on dvd... We are using one of my NTSC HVX's out of short-term necessity... in the future, we will be investing in the pal equivalent...

jason

[majormorgan]

At the end of the day it all depends on what you are going to end up on.

Are you shooting for TV or are you shooting for film?

The average human eye wouldn't really be able to perceive the difference between a 24P sequence and a 25P sequence. What makes it filmic is that there are 24 or 25 whole frames being played in front of your eyes. A film specialist could probablly tell but most people wouldn't.

With 60i or 50i you are getting a less strobey image as it is updating smoother due to the eye seeing 60 or 50 half frames, ideal for sports where the action is fast and looks live. Thats the video look.

The film look is the whole frames played at half that rate. Motion is more strobey [if you've ever tried to pan across with film or 24 or 25p video if you go too fast the pan is very choppy unless you have a moving point of focus such as a person or a car to follow]

With video frame rates such as 60i and 50i the same pan would appear smoother as there are more updates to the screen that your eye sees.

Feature films printed frame for frame into a 25fps timebase are no less filmic than the original shown in the cinema [apart from not being on the big screen, a comfy red seat and a bucket of popcorn by your side accompanied by 300 people gagging to see the film]. It will just be shorter in duration [by 4%].

So again, it boils down to what you want the look of and what you are shooting for.

If you want the film look in a PAL country and you are shooting mainly for TV then grab a PAL camera and then shoot 25P with exposure times close to what film people shoot [that bit needs researching]. Get your lighting to match film ratios and try to get as much detail in the shadows without making your blacks milky. Try pulling the blacks back in post but try to keep the low tp mid tones normal to keep the detail.

If you want to go all out for filmic, either shoot zoomed, with a lower F stop [f2.8-F4.0] to get a shallower depth of field with the stock lens. Or invest in a 35mm adaptor such as the SGPRO. REDROCKMICRO M2 or the Brevis or anyone's out there and grab some 35mm lenses for depth of field close to film.

But then again unless you light well & plan shots, even film itself will look less filmic and crap.

Enjoy and make it what you can !

Majormorgan

[Filip Staresinic]

Thank you very much Majormorgan for that info. I apreciate it. I went for PAL version. By the way, SGpro is on the way and some nikons.

[majormorgan]

Hey Filip,

Good call on the HVX and SGPRO.

Glad you went Nikon for the mount as there are some excellent Zeiss Nikon mount lenses. Nikons are great, but the Zeiss's in the Nikon mounts are faster [F1.4 in the 50mm & 85mm, F2.0 in the 35mm and F2.8 in the 28mm]. They produce pictures that are very sharp !

I got my 50mm Zeiss from Robert White in the UK. http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/zeiss.htm#ZFlens

The Zeiss are bigger than the Nikons and so have a better picture.

Ask Theo on the boards [his username is iposiniditos] he has shot some fantastic footage with SGPRO, HVX, NIKON and ZEISS !

Enjoy your purchases and let's see some great stuff !!!

Richard
[Majormorgan]

[hawk1]

Hi to all,

This is my first posting in this forum. I’ve read the thread with a great interest. I am purchasing soon an HVX200 and am facing some problems. First, I have a problem finding the camera. The reason for this is my location. Here, in Bulgaria the camera can be found only at the official distributor (I’m not at all considering a grey-market purchase) and it has the shocking price of approximately $9600 (incl. VAT). I think it’s a PAL version but I didn’t even ask, because I am not going to pay this amount.

My options are – purchasing an NTSC version from B&H or flying to UK and purchasing a PAL version. It’s a difficult choice not only in terms of the differences between the two cameras, but the way in which it will be purchased.

I may need a little help first in choosing between the NTSC and PAL version. From what I know and understand till know the PAL version has a higher resolution (1440 x 1080) in HD mode, but the NTSC version has the capability of the higher frame rates. My greatest concerns are related to the slow-motion effect which I will be able to utilize. Reading the “Invaluable Guide” to the HVX200, I understand that both PAL and NTSC are capable to achieve a 50% slow down in 30p/60fps and 25p/50fps modes. So, my question is – are these results relatively comparable? If I shoot a very fast moving object, let’s say a very fast moving sports car, will I gain more usable frames with the 30p/60fps mode of NTSC? Also, will there be much difference in terms of resolution? I guess my question is – if the resolution of the NTSC version is less, is the number of additional frames hopefully achieved worth the loss of resolution (if any) when shooting fast moving objects?

I know that for many of you these are lame questions or may be even meaningless, but I hope that if someone has experience in shooting in these modes, will be able to shed some light on the subject.

Thanks,
Val

[JitCam]

Fil,

trust me you wont regret getting the PAL hvx.. 25p is amazingly filmlike, i had the same concern before i got the camera, also you will have great SD footage which has a higher res than ntcs, for example shooting dv50 at 720x576 rocks.

[majormorgan]

Welcome Hawk1

Its tricky. Though the higher frame rate is available in the 60Hz [NTSC] its directly comparible to the highest frame rate in the 50Hz [PAL] version.

In both cases you get half speed when you compare 50FPS played at 25FPS with 60FPS played at 30FPS. You'll get an even slower option when you play back 60FPS at 24FPS.

So you could buy the NTSC and shoot 60FPS and then frame print that into a 25p timeline to achieve slightly slower than half speed, but would you notice that much of a difference?

Maybe, maybe not. To be honest if you want higher frame rates than half speed slow motion then you should rent a higher speed film camera just for those shots. Many HD film productions that shot on Vipers, hired a high speed 35mm for the explosions only.

If you went 60Hz HVX. you'd still have the headache of shooting 60FPS, 30FPS or 24FPS footage that would need to be conformed to 25FPS in PAL countries.

It all boils down to what your final footage is ending up on. If its mainly film then NTSC could be the way to go. If its mainly TV and you are in PAL land then go PAL.

Whatever you go, the HVX is a great camera so go for it !

in terms of where to buy, have you tried places in Germany, Italy or France? They're closer to you and might have a lower VAT than the 17.5% in the UK. Might be worth looking into.

thanks and lets see some fantastic stuff whatever you get !!!!

Majormorgan

[hawk1]

Thanks for all your help!

It turns out finally that I will by flying to UK to get the PAL version.
I'm sorry if it's offtopic, but I wanted to ask - will I be able to carry the HVX on board the plane provided that the bag fits the limitations?
Also, do you think I will have problems if a carry the money in cash? Is this allowed?

Thanks,
Val