Wobbly image?

[Norbert]

I have recently got my HV20 and I love the image quality. However, I'm trying to figure out if there is something wrong with my camera because as soon as I move the camera I get an extremely wobbly image that resembles a jelly, even at full wide. Not even the OIS takes care of these wobbles.

Here's a handheld clip full wide with OIS ON where I am walking up a hill: http://files.filefront.com/7340877
Should it wobble like that? I did not expect such a wobbly image at full wideangle.

I put the camera on a home made stabilizer device and tried it with both OIS on and off, but that did not take care of the wobbles either. Here's a clip with stabilizer and OIS on: http://files.filefront.com/7340999

I have an old Sony DV handycam with EIS that produces far better results even with the EIS off. I've also owned a DVX100 with OIS which did not behave like this either. I've never seen anything like it before.

Am I just spoiled? Is it supposed to behave this way? Or is there something wrong with my HV20?

[scharky]

Wish I could help you out but your server is SUUUUPER slow, and at 58.7MB for the file size I'm only getting 7.5kbps download, as comparded to 300kpbs normally. You might try and post a smaller clip.

[Norbert]

Smaller files uploaded on Filefront. Edited my first post ^^

[rawfa]

I just watched the first clip and it looks like normal regular very shaky camera footage. The automatic stabilization is off, right?

[rawfa]

I just watched the second clip and it DOES look weird! It's like the image stretches and shrinks at the time. Very weird. I have no idea what's going on, but it's the first time I've seen it on a HV20 video. Other than that the image quality looks amazing. Did you color correct it or is it stragith from the cam?

[Norbert]

Both clips have image stabilization ON. It does look weird doesn't it? It's like half the image jumps and then the rest of the image follows.
No color correction or anything though, just straight from the camera. The image quality from this camera is amazing but it's a shame I can't get a stable image.

Just to be a bit clearer, this is the PAL version of the camera so I don't need to remove any pulldown or anything. I still see these wobbles when I connect the camera directly to my tv.

[rawfa]

I may be wrong here, but I'm thinking there might be something wrong with YOUR hv20. I've seen many moving HV20 clips online that don't look like this at all. Can't you call your seller and tell him the camera is defective so he'll take this one and give you another HV20?

I had an issue the first couple of days I bought my A1 and the minute I told the store they sent UPS to pick it up at my place and sent me a new one. I even wrote down the serial number to be sure it was a new one (hehehe I trust no one)

[Norbert]

That's the kind of comment I was hoping for. I want this to be just a defective unit so I can return it and get a new one that works properly. I will contact my seller about this, thanks!

[Kholi]

I dunno abotu your camera wobble, but this wobbly-ass image is the best I've seen from the HV20.

What are you doing in camera man? This brings up a question that I'm about to ask to this entire forum.

[rawfa]

This is actually the first image I've seen from the HV20 PAL. I hope this is not some general pal thing, or I'm going to be pissed as hell.

[Sacksnack]

I think if you put the camera on a tripod and shoot, and the wobbling is still there, then you'll know it's the camera. From the little I've shot with the HV20, I found that it's so light, any movement of your hand will show up in the footage. It's like a leaf in the wind. I put my Vidled light on it and the extra weight steadied the shots quite a bit. But you still have to be very careful with moving the camera. Having said that, your footage does look extra wobbly. And watching it is making me ill.

On a side not, I shot some random stuff yesterday, and I was blown away with how it looked on my 50 inch plasma. This camera has no right looking this good for $1000. I hope I never use the word wobbly ever again.
-Kevin

[Barry_Green]

Were you at maximum telephoto or something? I tried just walking around with it and at full wide-angle the shots were very steady.

[Norbert]

I dunno abotu your camera wobble, but this wobbly-ass image is the best I've seen from the HV20.

What are you doing in camera man? This brings up a question that I'm about to ask to this entire forum.No magic here, I shot this with Tv mode, AWB and underexposed a tad. As for settings, contrast was set to -1, brightness +1, color depth +1 and sharpness left at 0. I found that the contrast affects the incoming image so -1 contrast actually appears to give you slightly more latitude.

This is actually the first image I've seen from the HV20 PAL. I hope this is not some general pal thing, or I'm going to be pissed as hell.I don't know many owners of PAL HV20 so it's hard to tell if this is a problem with the PAL version. I'll try to return it and if I get one back that has the same issue I will send it back and wait until it's fixed. It's a great camera and I want to be able to use it but I can't use it with this unstable image.

I think if you put the camera on a tripod and shoot, and the wobbling is still there, then you'll know it's the camera. From the little I've shot with the HV20, I found that it's so light, any movement of your hand will show up in the footage. It's like a leaf in the wind. I put my Vidled light on it and the extra weight steadied the shots quite a bit. But you still have to be very careful with moving the camera. Having said that, your footage does look extra wobbly. And watching it is making me ill.The image doesn't wobble when the camera is still. The thing is I have another handycam that's even lighter than the HV20 and I have no problems shooting a steady image with that one, even with it's EIS turned off. The HV20's image stabilizer doesn't seem to help getting rid of these wobbles at all.

Were you at maximum telephoto or something? I tried just walking around with it and at full wide-angle the shots were very steady.Nope, it's all full wide. That's what surpriced me. I would've understood if the footage was a little shaky at full tele but that looks even worse.

[Barry_Green]

I'd say it's broken then. At full wide that shot should have been relatively smooth unless you have, like, five knees or something... :thumbsup:

[Norbert]

I'll just have to convince my seller that I don't have five knees then. :P

[San-Ban]

he norbert

i am in pal land i took my hv20 out today in the park footage on tripod was super duper but when i did some handheld shots with the pod connected something like a glidecam(but not as smooth)i got very unnatural jerky footage could not tell on small lcd but on playback monitor its weird so i am wondering if its the same as yourself its like the OIS was trying to correct any movement but i did not have OIS on so tried it on no difference tried other things new tape change settings but still the same any ideas ? anybody

camera was on wide set at 120 shutter speed tried 50 no change

[Norbert]

San-Ban, I think we might have the exact same problem. I can't get any useful footage from my HV20 even at full wide with OIS and with a stabilizer.
I have talked to another guy that recently got his PAL HV20 and he has encountered the same problem. I think I am going to draw the conclusion that this is something that all PAL HV20's suffer from.

Also, did you notice a blue vertical line a little to the left in the picture when you shoot in poor light so the camera has to add gain? That's another problem I and some other PAL users have discovered.

[jenningsp]

your making me paranoid... i'm buying mine today.

[Norbert]

jenningsp: If you encounter any of these issues (wobbly image and blue vertical line) with your HV20, please let me know.

I'm getting a new unit next week and if that unit has the same problems I will return it and try to get my money back so I can wait until these problems are fixed.

[jenningsp]

i've got it now. how would i test it?

[Cinetastic]

I hope you guys can get your PAL lands 25p cameras fixed so not so wobbly/shaky. Could there be any electronic part of the image stabilising that is coming unstuck in 50Hz mode(s), as the code was probably written for 60Hz - just putting some ideas out there, I have no real idea why it is happenning.

I sincerely hope that the HV20 50Hz 'wobbly' is not going to be a problem like the recent Sony 25p HVR V1E color debacle, but that alone got me scared enough to buy a 60Hz 24p HV20 (even though based in the UK) - because of my following thoughts: like in the world of video game consoles, these cameras are developed in NTSC lands - and any PAL compatability is an afterthought. Is that too strong a statement? Not if based on my video game console analogy - a multi million pound buisness where PAL was repeatedly shafted. I hope I am not dismissing the ability of these camera to do their 25p job, but the examples are stacking up of something wacky in bringing these camera to 1080 50Hz worlds...

GAME'S GUIDE TO 60Hz GAMING (http://www.game.co.uk/lowdown.aspx?lid=4511)

[Norbert]

i've got it now. how would i test it?Take it for a walk at full wide-angle, put it on a simple stabilizer if you have one. If you have the same problem I have with wobbly image you will notice it sooner or later.
Also, shoot some really poor light footage so the camera has to add lots of gain and look for a blue vertical line a little to the left in the picture. If you have this problem you will even see this line in the display when you are recording.

[San-Ban]

hi norbert

i will post some footage of me wobbly bits(from the camera)
and maybe you can tell me if its the same as your getting

link

http://www.sendspace.com/file/grrc82


thanks

[Gordon Prince]

jenningsp: If you encounter any of these issues (wobbly image and blue vertical line) with your HV20, please let me know.


...any finding jenningsp?

[Zim]

so does this just seem to be a 24p low shutter speed thing? maybe just a few bad cameras? I read a post and the guy said at 1/48 24p everything was ok.

[Norbert]

San-Ban: In the beginning of your clip it looks like the wobbles I'm getting. Hm.

[San-Ban]

hi norbert

heard any info on this "wobbles" is this just the way of the camera cmos hdv
ois etc or is this faulty cameras i am contacting my dealer in uk to see if anymore complaints regarding this issue cant seem to get any info from
canon uk as i would like to know your thoughts and everbody elses does
the ntsc version have the same"wobbles"or is it in pal land only and are people returning them for exchange etc


thanks

[Norbert]

That is what I am trying to find out also.

[Gordon Prince]

And we all here monitoring your findings... Going or not with PAL, here's the question!

[jenningsp]

here is my test of trying to walk as smoothly as possible and keeping the camera steady with two hands. you can hear my heavy breathing as proof that i tried really hard to get a smooth image :)

CINE MODE - F/5.6 - 1/50 shutter

http://www.box.net/shared/g9fxc3xs9n

it seems that this is just an inherent issue with the bayer filter on the camera, all bayer filter cameras suffer from it (PAL and NTSC), it's not a fault. here are some other discussions about the same thing.

current
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92486

older
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89865

[jenningsp]

here is a video of the same thing but I'm using a shoulder mount. the ground is completely uneven so there are still shakes BUT it's a hell of a lot smoother!!!

http://www.box.net/shared/bz37qhmbdj

[Norbert]

jenningsp: Your footage looks a lot better than mine.

Anyhow, Mal over at hv20.com has figured out what's happening to the image when you get these wobbles. It seems that vertical lines get skewed when you do a fast horizontal pan on a tripod.
Here's the thread: http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=889#post889

[Emanuel]

I had a different opinion before. After downloading all the files (or almost), my guts are:

There's some with these PAL version units -- too much sensitive in terms of roller shutter comparing with other units. Austin Meyers' sample, for instance:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=668760&postcount=15

Is there better example?

The question is:

Is there or not a noticeable difference between NTSC vs. PAL versions regarding the roller shutter issue?

Taken these examples I'd say: YES.

To notice that there is a similar problem with the NTSC version units, it's to put a mask on it. 'cause of course the CMOS is there too, the roller shutter as well. But taking both examples (Norbert vs. Meyers) there's a great difference.

What's up? Defective units? Or "just" a defective PAL manufacturing?

Unless, other units may prove this conclusion as a wrong conclusion.


Norbert, I'm waiting for your feedback on your replaced unit. If you'll have the same result with a quite different serial number, I'd advise any future PAL user (going to 25p route) if the NTSC wouldn't be better to the progressive purpose and speed-up 4% from the 24p all the shooting material (there's a problem under the fluorescent lights flickering that I'm not sure if it has solution since there's no 1/50 shutter speed or am I wrong?)


[Canon should present an urgent satisfaction to the PAL customer on this. They shouldn't be silent 'cause we won't.]

[Barry_Green]

The rolling-shutter image artifact is well known, and yes it skews lines on horizontal pans. There are some nice extreme examples on dvinfo that show when the rolling shutter becomes more of an issue such as shooting a ceiling fan, etc. None of that really matters too much in actual practice; I mean, how many times will you shoot a ceiling fan or desk fan?

Where it could be a problem is under circumstances like flash photography, especially with lots of flashes going off; I would think maybe something like red-carpet interviews would be a worst-case scenario for a rolling shutter system.

That said, I can't see how the wobbles exhibited in Norbert's first clip would be rolling shutter. It just looks like the stabilizer was off and he had a case of the DTs while shooting. My HV20 has a rolling shutter and on full wide and handheld shot it is quite stable. So indict the rolling shutter for the things it is guilty of, but don't be so quick to blame it for things that may not be its fault.

[Norbert]

The strange thing is that someone on dvinfo had the same problem (wobbly image like mine) with his NTSC HV20 a while ago when it had recently been released. So, are we talking about a few defective cameras from both worlds? Since it seems that not everyone has this problem.

A little update: I tried recording some DV footage with the HV20 on my stabilizer yesterday and it looked a lot better than the wobbly HDV footage I'm getting. Could it be a problem with just the HDV side of the camera?

I have yet to return my camera but I will get back to you on this as soon as I have tried the new one.

[Artscroll]

I completely agree with Barry. I've had my NTSC HV20 for about a month and the rolling shutter for everyday use is not a problem but could be in the scenerios he described.

[Emanuel]

The rolling-shutter image artifact is well known, and yes it skews lines on horizontal pans. There are some nice extreme examples on dvinfo that show when the rolling shutter becomes more of an issue such as shooting a ceiling fan, etc. None of that really matters too much in actual practice; I mean, how many times will you shoot a ceiling fan or desk fan?

Where it could be a problem is under circumstances like flash photography, especially with lots of flashes going off; I would think maybe something like red-carpet interviews would be a worst-case scenario for a rolling shutter system.

That said, I can't see how the wobbles exhibited in Norbert's first clip would be rolling shutter. It just looks like the stabilizer was off and he had a case of the DTs while shooting. My HV20 has a rolling shutter and on full wide and handheld shot it is quite stable. So indict the rolling shutter for the things it is guilty of, but don't be so quick to blame it for things that may not be its fault.OK Barry and thanks for your reply.

But compare the Norbert's finding with these two Austin Meyers' samples:

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20issues%20720p.mov

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov

On the 1st it's the same thing but on the 2nd? There's no "the" same outcome. Why?

The most confusing is that we can't say the same when Norbert tries to smooth from his stabilizer. Still...from a slower move (comparing with Austin Meyers). It doesn't make sense at all.

[Emanuel]

The strange thing is that someone on dvinfo had the same problem (wobbly image like mine) with his NTSC HV20 a while ago when it had recently been released. So, are we talking about a few defective cameras from both worlds? Since it seems that not everyone has this problem.

A little update: I tried recording some DV footage with the HV20 on my stabilizer yesterday and it looked a lot better than the wobbly HDV footage I'm getting. Could it be a problem with just the HDV side of the camera?

I have yet to return my camera but I will get back to you on this as soon as I have tried the new one.Are you talking about this one?

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=668509&postcount=7

In his opinion, it's not a defective unit problem.

'cause if it is about Austin Meyers, compare your sample with those links one post before and you'll agree that if it appears on the first one, the same doesn't occur on the 2nd one. But not on yours. Yours is frankly worst. Why? (here's the question)

[Norbert]

This is the thread I was talking about: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89865&highlight=stable
So yes, it was Austin Meyers. Look at the sample clip he has posted in the first post. It shows the same kind of distortion that I'm getting.

i am doing my best to hold it steady, but you'd think at full wide one should be able to hold the camera (the way it's meant to be held) and have it render useable video.This is what I would say too. No matter how hard I try I can't get useable video, but everyone seem to dismiss his footage as just regular shaky handheld footage. I really hope this issue is not normal for this kind of camera.

[Emanuel]

Yeah, I agree. That's the same link I posted two posts above. However, his stabilizer footage (2nd link) doesn't show it. Why?

When will you have your new unit, Ron?

[Norbert]

I'll probably have it some time next week. I sent mine back yesterday so I guess they will want to have a look at that unit first.

[Emanuel]

Thanks Norbert/Ron. I'll be surely buying it but only after your next report (you can also report it to Canon if you wish or need, probably have no need -- nevertheless your useful posts have been stopping several purchases; I know one more buyer/a customer of mine waiting...) -- PAL users.

[Norbert]

I'll let you guys know as soon as I know.

I'm still confused though, if this should be considered a problem with PAL cameras only, then how come Austin had the same problem with his NTSC camera?
This is just a theory and I can't prove it in any way, but what if all HV20s have this problem and only a few owners see it as a problem?
Either that or there are just a few defective units of both PAL and NTSC.

[Emanuel]

I share the same POV, Ron.

I'm afraid the only member who can give us a proper enlightenment is Barry. I hope he may read our thoughts and findings here @dvxuser.com, @dvinfo.net and @hv20.com:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=124&page=3

...and maybe he may help us to get a conclusion on the issue. And, of course. your own experience with your replacement unit.

In meantime, can you Barry help us once more until a last word on this whole hassle?

[Emanuel]

And here are the dvinfo.net links left by Patrick Jennings before:


current
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92486

older
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89865

[Barry_Green]

Wow, just played with it, trying to recreate Austin's shot. It's wobbly as heck! Bizarre. Slight rotation of the camera causes very weird squishing/stretching effects. Rolling shutter artifacting perhaps? Weird... weird weird weird.

Anyway, I don't know that what Austin and Norbert are getting is actually unusual for an HV20, nor do I think it's limited to PAL cams. Here's an example video that shows what I'm getting, trying to recreate that shot (handheld, holding it out in front in both hands, trying to be reasonably stable, full wide angle, etc). For comparison I did it in 24p with OIS and without OIS, and then I recreated the same shot on the HVX with & without OIS.

As always, right-click and "save as..." and remove the trailing "X".
http://www.icexpo.com/HV20/HV20-wobbles.mp4X

I mean, we hear a lot of complaints about the HVX's OIS, but even with the OIS off the HVX still looks like a steadicam as compared to the HV20's bouncy/jumpy/wobbly/stretchy image. Canon usually has great OIS, so I'm guessing it's a rolling shutter issue, but I really don't know. The OIS doesn't seem to make that much of a difference either.

[Zim]

when I right click with my mac there is no save as. All I get is a text.

Well I guess I can forget this camera!!

[Barry_Green]

Not sure how to do it on a Mac, but the file's there on WinXP Windows Explorer.

I don't know that the HV20 needs to be "forgotten"... that seems a bit extreme. All depends on what you want to use it for. If you're using it as a helmetcam for a mountain biking show, yeah, I don't think you'll be happy. If you're shooting dramatic narrative on a tripod, the HV20 delivers amazing results for the price.

[Zim]

Not sure how to do it on a Mac, but the file's there on WinXP Windows Explorer.

I don't know that the HV20 needs to be "forgotten"... that seems a bit extreme. All depends on what you want to use it for. If you're using it as a helmetcam for a mountain biking show, yeah, I don't think you'll be happy. If you're shooting dramatic narrative on a tripod, the HV20 delivers amazing results for the price.



Barry I'm not planning on doing any hemet cam stuff!!

But I would like to be able to hand hold the camera sometimes. Man I can get a great set up from Zotz for like $1300. Camera, mic, wide angle, UV. For my limited use right now it might work pretty good. But if stuff moving in the video , wobbling around! That might suck.

I'm going to need to know more and see it. I thought this camera was going to be a good choice. But,,,,,,next choice $2600 for a DVX100b. I'm about ready to buy too.

[Barry_Green]

Hopefully someone on a Mac will tell you how you can download that file, so you can see for yourself and decide whether it's an issue for you or not.

[maverickstunts]

I right clicked and got save as and I am using my powerbook. don't know what to tell you. Same with ctl click.

[Emanuel]

Wow, just played with it, trying to recreate Austin's shot. It's wobbly as heck! Bizarre. Slight rotation of the camera causes very weird squishing/stretching effects. Rolling shutter artifacting perhaps? Weird... weird weird weird.

Anyway, I don't know that what Austin and Norbert are getting is actually unusual for an HV20, nor do I think it's limited to PAL cams. Here's an example video that shows what I'm getting, trying to recreate that shot (handheld, holding it out in front in both hands, trying to be reasonably stable, full wide angle, etc). (...) Canon usually has great OIS, so I'm guessing it's a rolling shutter issue, but I really don't know. The OIS doesn't seem to make that much of a difference either.Thanks Barry for your effort and test.

Your impression on the rolling shutter is mine too though my non-techie background.

Check the two Austin Meyers' samples:

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20issues%20720p.mov

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov

On the 1st it is the same thing than the Norbert's clip @post #1. But on the Austin's 2nd clip? There's no "the" same outcome. Why?

It seems this problem affects the PAL version more than the NTSC version. That's only that what I can conclude from the comparision.

At hv20.com we can find more complaints (it seems something similar):

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=171

PAL unit again.

Shall it be fair to call it more noticeable with PAL than NTSC? I mean the rolling shutter issue?

[Zim]

I right clicked and got save as and I am using my powerbook. don't know what to tell you. Same with ctl click.


when I right click on barry's link there is no save as . Only

Open Link in New window
Download Linked file
Add link to bookmark
Copy Link

If I just open it I only get a text file. If I download it to my desk top. Only a text file and if I right click that still no "save as"

[pelai]

Hi Zim,
once you've got the file on your mac, just change the name of it by taking away the extention x.txt = that should give you a file with mp4 as extention and you can open it in quicktime.

[Zim]

Hi Zim,
once you've got the file on your mac, just change the name of it by taking away the extention x.txt = that should give you a file with mp4 as extention and you can open it in quicktime.


that did the job thanks....

[Zim]

Wow, just played with it, trying to recreate Austin's shot. It's wobbly as heck! Bizarre. Slight rotation of the camera causes very weird squishing/stretching effects. Rolling shutter artifacting perhaps? Weird... weird weird weird.

Anyway, I don't know that what Austin and Norbert are getting is actually unusual for an HV20, nor do I think it's limited to PAL cams. Here's an example video that shows what I'm getting, trying to recreate that shot (handheld, holding it out in front in both hands, trying to be reasonably stable, full wide angle, etc). For comparison I did it in 24p with OIS and without OIS, and then I recreated the same shot on the HVX with & without OIS.

As always, right-click and "save as..." and remove the trailing "X".
http://www.icexpo.com/HV20/HV20-wobbles.mp4X

I mean, we hear a lot of complaints about the HVX's OIS, but even with the OIS off the HVX still looks like a steadicam as compared to the HV20's bouncy/jumpy/wobbly/stretchy image. Canon usually has great OIS, so I'm guessing it's a rolling shutter issue, but I really don't know. The OIS doesn't seem to make that much of a difference either.

The HVX looks great on both. The HV20 without OIS looks like crap. With OIS is ok. Still kinda of jumpy or something.

Barry run your DVX100 out on the porch!!

[Emanuel]

Thanks Barry for your effort and test.

Your impression on the rolling shutter is mine too though my non-techie background.

Check the two Austin Meyers' samples:

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20issues%20720p.mov

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov

On the 1st it is the same thing than the Norbert's clip @post #1. But on the Austin's 2nd clip? There's no "the" same outcome. Why?

It seems this problem affects the PAL version more than the NTSC version. That's only that what I can conclude from the comparision.

At hv20.com we can find more complaints (it seems something similar):

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=171

PAL unit again.

Shall it be fair to call it more noticeable with PAL than NTSC? I mean the rolling shutter issue?Here is another problem report related:

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=189

[Jason Rodriguez]

This issue is definitely rolling shutter. The reason the PAL version seems more affected than the NTSC version is because of the higher clock speed to get to the 60i/60P required for NTSC, rather than the 50i/50P for PAL. Higher clock speeds equate to faster read-out times (faster time for the read-out from the top to the bottom of the sensor), which means less rolling shutter.

[Emanuel]

Thanks Jason for your contribution here. If Barry is the Pana guru, you are the 2K one (your SI/Cineform camera rocks -- I've seen the clips and you have there a quite achievement, Congrats and Kudos) and you can have something to tell considering your experience with the CMOS technology.

A few minutes ago, I posted there on subject (but taken this your input only 50% seems valid, granted your point):

http://hv20.com/showpost.php?p=1097&postcount=45

Posting that example:

LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=669024&postcount=21)

25p@1/25 where the problem seems away.

What do you think? Is the shutter speed a good solution to handle with it?

Cheers,
Emanuel

[Norbert]

Wow, so I was right all along? I hate it when I'm right...

EDIT: Emanuel, you are right, that 25p@1/25 clip is the only walking clip I have seen that doesn't wobble at all. How strange.

[Jason Rodriguez]

I looked at the clip, in a couple places the "problem" still exists (it's not a problem though, it's really an inherent attribute of CMOS sensors without global shutters), but the 1/25th of a second shutter has created more motion blur so that you can't see the "wobble" as clearly.

The reason the image get's "jelly-like" to you is because it's remaining in sharp focus, i.e., no motion blur, despite moving on the screen. So you see a sharp skew. Decreasing the shutter speed causes more motion blur which in-turn hides the skew for the most part, because instead of a clear, sharp image "wobbling", you're getting blur on the screen-you won't see the slanted edges because they, and the rest of the scene, will have motion blur instead.

[Zim]

The clip played really bad on my mac.

[Norbert]

Ah, thanks Jason for that explanation. I always did my tests with 1/50 shutter speed. I think I tried 1/25 one time though but to my eye it still wobbled. I also tried shooting DV with the HV20, which did not wobble like that. So, doesn't the problem with rolling shutter and CMOS affect the footage (as much) in lower resolutions?

Anyhow, I want to be able to shoot HDV at a 1/50 shutter speed without wobbles so I have decided to not let them send me a new HV20. I want my money back so I can instead save up for a camera that doesn't have rolling shutter and CMOS, if that is indeed what's causing the problem. I just couldn't have the image behave like that.

[vsansal]

I was at bestbuy doing some tests today. This problem is definitely not only limited to PAL units. NTSC unit has it as well. When I start shaking the camcorder slowly image started squishing/stretching. It was just like the clips I saw in this thread. There was a JVC HD7 right next to HV20. I did the same thing and the result was nothing like HV20. Then I switched the HV20 to 60i from 24p and the result was very pleasing. The squishing/stretching thing was nearly gone. I don't know how it is related to 24p but 60i doesn't seem to produce disturbing wobbly images.

[Emanuel]

I looked at the clip, in a couple places the "problem" still exists (it's not a problem though, it's really an inherent attribute of CMOS sensors without global shutters), but the 1/25th of a second shutter has created more motion blur so that you can't see the "wobble" as clearly.

The reason the image get's "jelly-like" to you is because it's remaining in sharp focus, i.e., no motion blur, despite moving on the screen. So you see a sharp skew. Decreasing the shutter speed causes more motion blur which in-turn hides the skew for the most part, because instead of a clear, sharp image "wobbling", you're getting blur on the screen-you won't see the slanted edges because they, and the rest of the scene, will have motion blur instead.Thank you Jason again. Quite useful your explanation.

So, can I infer the slow shutter speed can solve the problem (at least to my eyes -- I can not understand your reservations Zim) from the motion blur effect?

[Tomtebo]

Have anybody taken this problem to the big guy Canon ? I mean, it's kind of a problem and i think they need to know about this problem so maybye they can fix it...

[Norbert]

I'll have to inform you guys that I called just now and told them to not send me a new camera. Stupid, I know, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of sending another camera back. After discussing this problem here and on hv20.com I am fairly confident that this was not just one defective unit.

However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions? I agree with Tomtebo. Someone should have a nice chat with Canon. If Canon then says that the camera is supposed to behave like this, then we can all base our decision on that and either buy the camera for what it is or just not buy the camera if you can't live with the wobbling.

[Emanuel]

If Canon then says that the camera is supposed to behave like this, then we can all base our decision on that and either buy the camera for what it is or just not buy the camera if you can't live with the wobbling.Ron, I understand you. But my bet would/will be to know how to live with this. As I said, unfortunately Canon have no "Barry Greens" to give support for their potential customers. Jason has given a good help to. At least, in order to understand what's happening there. Maybe he or Barry may give some hint on how to surpass the hassle. Barry gave an useful help on the gain issue.

[Jason Rodriguez]

Rolling shutter isn't going away anytime soon . . . this is the nature of CMOS architectures that don't have a series of charge storage transistors on the pixel (so they can't read-out and capture light at the same time like you can with a FIT CCD).

The extra transistors per pixel needed for charge storage so that you can have a true snap-shot shutter (which means on the chip you are able to store and read-out charge at the same time that you are also integrating) gives you less fill factor, which creates less dynamic range for a given pixel size, and also contributes to more fixed pattern noise and photo-response-non-uniformity (PRNU). So it's a lose-lose situation. There are CMOS sensors out there that have global shutters, but they are typically large sensors with huge pixels to keep the light gathering ability very good despite the fact that they might have double the number of transistors per pixel as what is in a much simpler 3T APS system.

[Zim]

Thank you Jason again. Quite useful your explanation.

So, can I infer the slow shutter speed can solve the problem (at least to my eyes -- I can not understand your reservations Zim) from the motion blur effect?...

Well it is the same reservations others are having. Like you said it might have to be something to live with, but I would rather not deal with that problem. I've seen some awesome footage from the HV20, but I'll wait on for more info on the HV20....I haven't ruled it out yet.

The problem seems to be mostly in 24p ? If the camare is on a tripod does the problems go away?

[Emanuel]

...

Well it is the same reservations others are having. Like you said it might have to be something to live with, but I would rather not deal with that problem. I've seen some awesome footage from the HV20, but I'll wait on for more info on the HV20....I haven't ruled it out yet.

The problem seems to be mostly in 24p ? If the camare is on a tripod does the problems go away?Understood. I was just referring that 25p@1/25 clip, beyond the motion blur (it doesn't bother me so much...or even at all) -- it seems fine at my eyes. Doesn't it at yours?

However, I am like you, following the user reviews. I have here other people (customers of mine) doing the same. Unfortunately, Ron gave up from his HV20 try. He would be a good eye for the task. Maybe he may change of ideas -- who knows?

EDIT -- Here's a fine example of a HV20 clip flying with a Merlin:

LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=663836&postcount=19)

For sure, I have no clue on the shooting specs...

...but since I've had some contact with Charles Papert S.O.C., I can try to send him an email in order to know something on that (+ shutter speed, etc). Or if eventually he may read this post, he may help us to find more on subject (I'll PM the link towards our discussion here).

[Zim]

I have to say that was really good. Some of the footage I've seen could be they way people are downloading too. Thanks for that link.

[Emanuel]

You're welcome.

I have to say that was really good.Are you talking about this one from Charles Papert or that one too from the last page shot at 25p and 1/25th of a second shutter ?

[Zim]

I was talking about the clip from Charles Papert . Not sure about the other one. Is that the one going up the stairs with the stuffed animal in it? If so the download is really bad to my mac. WMV play pretty good, but some downloads are un watchable. Real jumpy and blurry.

[Emanuel]

It is this one too:Posting that example:

LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=669024&postcount=21)

25p@1/25 where the problem seems away.

Blurry? Maybe a little bit but it doesn't bother me. Jumpy? Maybe from the playback and is that all?

I'm trying to figure out if the shutter speed is or not a good solution to handle with the rolling shutter.

Here is another PAL user complaining:
http://hv20.com/showpost.php?p=729&postcount=30

Perhaps Charles Papert can help us in order to know if the NTSC wil be or not better in terms of this issue.

According Jason, it shall be. He already gave us some lights on this.

My only doubt is if we can get a similar result working over the shutter speed. A little bit of motion blur can be not a ugly solution or am I wrong here?

[Zim]

I think using this mac I get video that is real jumpy. It starts and stops. Starts and stops. So it is probably not the source video.

[Emanuel]

For sure, it's not. I have the same problem from an old PC. But not on a 1GB RAM laptop where plays blurry but fairly smooth.

25p@1/25 seems a solution for handheld shooting from a proper stabilizer.

[Zim]

I need to go try one out somewhere.

[rawfa]

What I find weird about all of this is that I've seen many examples of shots done in the same circumstances that do not display the wobble distortion at all. I really don't know what to make of it. Until this wobble thing showed up I was like "wow! look at what this little camera can do! I've got to get me one of these!". Now I'm afraid I might end up with rubber band footage.

[Zim]

it is like two different cameras.

[rawfa]

I'd like to get my hands on one to make sure how things go. But this is kind of hard because it's basically a consumer camera...not many rental houses should have (if any).

[Emanuel]

Rafa,

There are issues IMHO but also methods in order to deal with.

Abraço,
E.

[rawfa]

I haven't been around the forums lately because I've been busy, but the helicopter footage I've seen at hv20.com seemed to me to be "beyond salvation". It's too bad, because I've seen some spectacular stuff shot with this little camera and I was really planning to buy one in the future. I think it would be an amazing B cam with my A1...or even an A cam for extreme shots, travel, and other situations where a smaller portable camera would be required.

[kledster]

great. and i was THIS close to buying an hv20. this is a bummer indeed.

[Fugitive]

What I find weird about all of this is that I've seen many examples of shots done in the same circumstances that do not display the wobble distortion at all. I really don't know what to make of it. Until this wobble thing showed up I was like "wow! look at what this little camera can do! I've got to get me one of these!". Now I'm afraid I might end up with rubber band footage.

Exactly my sentiments. There seems to be no objective explanation that fits all cases. It just seems to happen sometimes, and not at others. Strange indeed.

[rawfa]

At first I thought it was only a PAL thing, but then I saw it on ntsc too...

[Barry_Green]

The rubber band effect seems much more pronounced on 24p footage; maybe that's why you're seeing some clips that exhibit it and some that don't? Maybe the "don't" clips were 60i?

[mozwald]

I just got done reading through this and freaked out....So i went to go test my footage on NTSC 24p mode with 60 in shutter priority.

This is me walking with the camera on a $25 tripod. It shows some small panning distortion with the lines, but other than that, nothing as horrible as i have seen posted.

There are a lot of banding lines (but i could swear that the footage didnt do that in Premire pro 2, it might be some compression thing)
There is also noticable wave distoration around the edges of door and wall, but you cant see it if you arent looking for it.

http://www.stickypod.com/videos/data/597/steady_test.mov

I guess use what you can and work around the problem. Take for example...I can make a video game crash, or reproduce a windows crash on my computer, but that doesnt mean i should keep doing it, I can just work around it, and avoid the problem. I think everyone is in a "oh my god, my camera is broken, let me go see how bad i can make my footage look"-kind of mode. The camera still rocks in my eyes, and i never shoot wide open, because im using the brevis..

[Emanuel]

The rubber band effect seems much more pronounced on 24p footage; maybe that's why you're seeing some clips that exhibit it and some that don't? Maybe the "don't" clips were 60i?No not at all!

Two progressive ex(s)amples:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=97022

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=939690&postcount=59

[Norbert]

There are apparently ways to work around it. Put the HV20 on a commercial stabilizer like a Merlin and it will do great. It seems to do fine stabilized by a tripod even. But I just think it's a little far-fetched since this camera is aimed at the consumers who wants to shoot their kids' birthday, holidays and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, as a prosumer I would gladly just stabilize it with a tripod but as a consumer I personally don't see why I should spend those money on a handycam that doesn't work well as a HANDYcam.

My .02

[Zim]

most people will probably never use the 24p. It will be 1080i/60 all the way.

It will just be a effect that most people won't care about.

[rawfa]

There are apparently ways to work around it. Put the HV20 on a commercial stabilizer like a Merlin and it will do great. It seems to do fine stabilized by a tripod even. But I just think it's a little far-fetched since this camera is aimed at the consumers who wants to shoot their kids' birthday, holidays and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, as a prosumer I would gladly just stabilize it with a tripod but as a consumer I personally don't see why I should spend those money on a handycam that doesn't work well as a HANDYcam.

My .02

Couldn't agree more. I really wish canon would take a closer look at this.

[Tomtebo]

How about somebody will take this problem and speak with canon? I would have done it, if i had one and could expalin the real thing. I don't think i'm to sure about everyting with the problem with the canon Hv20. Somebody how know the problem for sure, and have the camera should call canon..

[rawfa]

Thanks Jason for your contribution here. If Barry is the Pana guru, you are the 2K one (your SI/Cineform camera rocks -- I've seen the clips and you have there a quite achievement, Congrats and Kudos) and you can have something to tell considering your experience with the CMOS technology.

A few minutes ago, I posted there on subject (but taken this your input only 50% seems valid, granted your point):

http://hv20.com/showpost.php?p=1097&postcount=45

Posting that example:

LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=669024&postcount=21)

25p@1/25 where the problem seems away.

What do you think? Is the shutter speed a good solution to handle with it?

Cheers,
Emanuel

Good question. Although being forced to shoot at 1/25 at all times is very limiting.

[Fugitive]

There are apparently ways to work around it. Put the HV20 on a I personally don't see why I should spend those money on a handycam that doesn't work well as a HANDYcam.


I think this camera is more exciting for an indie-film-maker than an average consumer. I would gladly use a decent affordable stabilizer with it.

Zim, what are you talking about? :huh: The whole point I want this camera is 24/25p! Its the reason we are all so excited!

[Barry_Green]

A Canon rep here would be most welcome. I don't know if it will happen; I believe no official Canon rep has ever represented Canon officially on DVInfo, but if they want to come here and support our Canon users we'd be most glad to have them.

[Zim]

I think this camera is more exciting for an indie-film-maker than an average consumer. I would gladly use a decent affordable stabilizer with it.

Zim, what are you talking about? :huh: The whole point I want this camera is 24/25p! Its the reason we are all so excited!


your average person who is buying a camcorder and the HV20 is a consumer camera will probably never use the 24p. I'm not talking about indie film makers.
The average Joe isn't going to do a lot extra to make his vacation look like a movie. It will be a "fun" extra to use sometimes.

Now do I want to buy a $800 stabilizer to make 24p look good? No I sure don't. I would apply the money to the Canon A1.

I just haven't made my mind up yet about the HV20. By the time you add all the extra's up to make it work on 24p you can have a better camera anyway.

Now if your just using 1080i/60 it won't matter.

[Emanuel]

Now do I want to buy a $800 stabilizer to make 24p look good? No I sure don't. I would apply the money to the Canon A1.They're different cameras. One is 4x the weight of another... Besides, an interlaced (3)CCD hasn't the same pic outcome than you can get from a (CINEMATIC) single chip CMOS.

[Zim]

They're different cameras. One is 4x the weight of another... Besides, an interlaced (3)CCD hasn't the same pic outcome than you can get from a (CINEMATIC) single chip CMOS.


I haven't ruled out buying the HV20 yet. I've seen some great video from it. The price is great too.