Sony's Dirty Marketing - A Rant

[nsoltz]

Just back from NAB and trying to dig out from the information overload and the work backlog.

We expect competition between manufacturers and formats. Competition is good. It gives users options and forces all of us to strive for our best. But we live in a society guided not just by law but by ethics. Whatever our perspectives in life might be, there are certain basic moral principles to which we strive. Among these is honesty.

Some Sony reps were telling booth visitors that P2 cards would lose data if you kept them in your pocket with change or if they came into contact with any CRT display. As a test, Barry tells me that he kept a card in his pocket all day (presumably with all the change he won in the casinos) and then rubbed it across the CRT of a slot machine. The P2 card lost no data and I sincerely hope that Barry lost no money. It's just a blatant untruth and it crosses the line of what is appropriate in a professional industry.

There was also a little red circular sign with P2 and a red slash. That's just dirty and I also think untrue. P2 is here and will remain here. Yes, formats and technologies change. I suppose in retrospect we could have a nice little graphic of a Quad machine with a red line through it or include Ampex in our memorial thoughts. Technological evolution, yes; lies, no.

My message to Sony is just to put your new camera and card format out in the marketplace and see what the users think. Me-- I'll take an I frame codec any day over a GOP codec. But compete on the merit of your own product and not by false representation of the competition.

End rant.

Ned Soltz

[Take_1]

Not surprising at all.

I have attended many Sony presentations over the years and they are always doing some kind of BS railing against Panasonic. (or as they call it "the P company")

This kind of behavior would suggest that they are really feeling the presence of Panasonic in the marketplace. And as such, they are reacting like scared children do by resorting to name calling and dirty tactics.

What they should do is get of their A$$es and create something that will sell to compete with the market Panasonic is harvesting.

[HVXguy]

Just back from NAB and trying to dig out from the information overload and the work backlog.

We expect competition between manufacturers and formats. Competition is good. It gives users options and forces all of us to strive for our best. But we live in a society guided not just by law but by ethics. Whatever our perspectives in life might be, there are certain basic moral principles to which we strive. Among these is honesty.

Some Sony reps were telling booth visitors that P2 cards would lose data if you kept them in your pocket with change or if they came into contact with any CRT display. As a test, Barry tells me that he kept a card in his pocket all day (presumably with all the change he won in the casinos) and then rubbed it across the CRT of a slot machine. The P2 card lost no data and I sincerely hope that Barry lost no money. It's just a blatant untruth and it crosses the line of what is appropriate in a professional industry.

There was also a little red circular sign with P2 and a red slash. That's just dirty and I also think untrue. P2 is here and will remain here. Yes, formats and technologies change. I suppose in retrospect we could have a nice little graphic of a Quad machine with a red line through it or include Ampex in our memorial thoughts. Technological evolution, yes; lies, no.

My message to Sony is just to put your new camera and card format out in the marketplace and see what the users think. Me-- I'll take an I frame codec any day over a GOP codec. But compete on the merit of your own product and not by false representation of the competition.

End rant.

Ned Soltz

Hello Ned,
It was nice meeting you. This is the first year I have worked with Panasonic at NAB.
Many Panasonic reps were mentioning what you are talking about. The Panasonic folks were above the trash talk. Many customers were running back and forth between the Panasonic and Sony booths. Many were mentioning the "sites" they saw at the Sony booth and were disgusted with such dis-information pervading from the S company. Many of these shooters were coming from DV and wanted to step up to HD. Once they understood the difference between I-frame and Long GOP, it was a no brainer. I could talk from a shooter/editor perspective and many of the NAB convention goers could appreciate that.

[mule ferguson]

Being an old Mll user. I remember all the the old BS about Mll being no good. It sure worked for me.
Mule

[David Saraceno]

My message to Sony is just to put your new camera and card format out in the marketplace and see what the users think. Me-- I'll take an I frame codec any day over a GOP codec. But compete on the merit of your own product and not by false representation of the competition.


I agree Ned.

Let the marketplace decide.

I hope everybody gives Hoodman the same consideration.

BTW, have you posted any great photos of the booth ladies?

[nsoltz]

While slightly OT here, this is the first year I did not shlep a camera other than my cell phone camera. And the only babe I shot with cell phone camera was Natasha, one of the Red prototypes.

Ned

[kwoff]

I used Sony camcorders until I got an HVX, and they were fine, but I think Sony has been playing catch up ever since the DVX came out, at least in that market segment, which may be the reason for these kinds of unsavory tactics. I don't know why they would think this could possibly help them in the long run.

[Xhenchmen]

Sony has problems all the way up the corporate ladder. They have lost touch with a majority of their consumers in all markets of their products.
They are losing their asses to an overpriced playstation.
Remember their online music site and their mp3 player?
And their HDV cameras just plain suck.
They know they are losing customers and their products are not what they used to be.
But hey. thats only my opinion.

[David Saraceno]

Sucks means nothing to me, so I can't comment on that.

"losing their assess on . . . playstation." Who cares?

Playstation, music sites, and mp3 players are not part of the company's professional and prosumer video market.

The company makes some great cams, and its newest offering with digital card acquisition looks sweet.

We had a two HDV cams, the Z1U and the FX1 and they produced some great images. Post was tough, but the images were great.

But that's my opinion.

[Look 1st]

as my old boss used to say "blowing out another mans candle doesnt make yours shine any brighter"

Its a shame when a company attacks another companys efforts. Its just flat out WRONG to lie about your competitions products.

I remember when I was shopping for a hi-def cam and it was between the sony stuff and panny stuff. I bought panny beacuse of features and overall picture quality (to me) and I didnt want to go with the GOP compression. I didnt listen to any of the marketing from panny, it was the PRODUCT that sold me on the HVX.

Shame on you SONY

[David Saraceno]

That's what causes us to move to the Panny.

I was the GOP issue, which really arose in post.

Not that I'm a huge fan of some of Panasonic's positions, but the cam speaks for itself.

except the flimsy 4 pin FW port, fairly inadequate LCD, and the battery mounts. I know they will break in the middle of a shot.

[n8ture]

I think they're still pissed about the Betamax.

[kamikaze1213]

I don't see why they even bother. HVX has proven itself in the marketplace for quite some time already. I'd have a better position on them (Sony) if they'd just put their money where they're mouths are and give people what they want in a prosumer camera. What happened with Sony originally claiming the Z series to have a true 24fps when it didn't? Cheap tactics don't sell products. I bought the HVX because I had plenty of time to learn about the great features and see the awesome footage and work that people are putting up everyday, Whilst saving that enormous amount of money. If Sony wants a dime from me they better get it right like Panasonic did. Seeing a press release with a picture of a new camera and a bunch of slurrs isn't going to cut it. Show me the footage, Show me what it can do, Don't tell me what it might do. Until then I'm staying right where im at with the time proven HVX :)

[Hi-Def Moments]

Y'know, I had an FX1 and liked the camera, until I started editing with the footage.... Total nightmare, not only with rendering times, but also something so simple as log and capture. If I did not actually stop the capturing process, it would not capture anything at all. I don't want to sit there and keep a sharp eye on the capturing process, that wastes too much time.

Long story short: sold the FX1 to buy 2 HVXs and have not looked back since...

[arrestthisman]

Sony's just pissed because even their progressive 24p video looks like webcam footage. With their rotating shutters, and their insane edge enhancment..

If they could come up with something worthy and didn't compress their video worse than consumer DV, they wouldn't have to resort to mudlinging.

[David Saraceno]

Sony's 24P does not look like webcam footage.

C'mon. What purpose do hyperboles like this serve.

The HVX200 shoots beautiful footage, as does the Z1U. But the former is more versatile and holds up in post so much better.

[Jeff Anderson]

We have a client with two FX-1s they use for corporate work. We get hired to DP/Direct/Produce with thier equipment. Besides the whole "I hate editing HDV" thing and the cineframe or whatever it is, I just cant stand trying to use the camera. The controls on the HVX make alot more sense and are much more useable to me. I just get the feeling that Panasonic designed a camera to be used by camera operators and Sony designed one just based on a features list.

[Blaine]

RED is about to give them a wake-up call...:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[TedRR]

Thanks for the thread. I sat for the Sony Demo of that camera. Every statement they made was against the P2 technology. The claim that the P2 technology has reached it's limit and "IS DEAD" must have been said a dozen times. It sounded like a poo poo on Panasonic rather then a rah rah for Sony's new sub 10k camera. And it's still going to be GOP??? When will they dump that concept? Next year?

Don't get me wrong. I've been in broadcast since 1976 and Sony has made some great technology. I still make bank with my 10 year old Camera/Deck. That's quite an accomplishment by today's standards.

But the release and discontinue rate of Sony over the last 10 years has made me re-think investing in thier products. The products Panasonic has been producing the last few years helped me find a replacement. :happy:

I love the concept of bragging about your product and let the market decide.

[arrestthisman]

David lighten up, I was obviously exaggerating.

But, yes, sony does suck. Flame aside I'll change my tune when I see sony footage that I actually find aesthetically pleasing.

[David Saraceno]

I know you were kidding, but what Sony is doing is simply "puffing" -- its both an advertising and legal term.

Sony cams are nice. The objection with them for me and others who own a HVX200 is the GOP issue.

Get I-frame acquisition, and I'd look at them again.

[Barry_Green]

but what Sony is doing is simply "puffing" -- its both an advertising and legal term.
No, what Sony is doing is simply "lying" -- and yes, that is exactly what they're doing.

Over a dozen people said that Sony was telling people "you can't put a P2 card in your pocket if you have loose change in there, because the coins will rub against it and create static charges that'll erase the card." That's a blatant, bald-faced lie. I put it to the test, loaded my pockets with change, carried around a card all around the casino floor of the Planet Hollywood, all on the bus ride over to the convention center, all through the convention center... surely that'd be enough to put it to the test, right?

Plugged the card in and -- guess what -- it worked. No lost footage whatsoever.

They also said "you can't get a P2 card too near a CRT monitor because it'll erase it." So I took the card and rubbed it all over the CRT-monitor slot machines. Front side, back side, left side, right side, any possible way I could find to make that card make contact with the CRT. Guess what -- it didn't lose a single frame. Then I decided to get pre-emptive on 'em, so I kept the card in my pocket with my cell phone, because sooner or later they'll probably start some cell-phone-based claim, right? Surprise, surprise, the card performs perfectly even when having been in direct contact with a cell phone for hours.

Bernie Mitchell and Robert Lane got so fed up with people repeating the "loose change/static" thing (which they'd just heard from the Sony people) that Bernie and Robert started tossing the P2 card on the floor and using their foot to grind it on the carpet, generating as much static as they could. Then they'd put it in the camera and -- guess what -- it worked flawlessly.

I find Sony's tactics shameful. For a Japanese company to conduct themselves with such a lack of honor is surprising. It smacks of desperation.

[Simon Wyndham]

Sorry, but this is utterly absurd. I have had the misfortune to listen to Panasonic talks and demos about P2 and they have usually spent around half of it running down the XDCAM disc system. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

In fact one of my colleagues had to do a public talk for Sony about the XDCAM system. In his original draft he pointed out some disadvantages to the P2 system. Nothing nasty, just observations he had made. But he was told by the Sony management that under no circumstances was he allowed to make any such comments about the competition.

Even when I talk on a private level with Sony reps they refuse to make any derogatory comments about Panasonic. Because, and I emphasise this, *it is Sony company policy not to do that*. If any Sony rep was badmouthing Panasonic then they would probably be in a lot of trouble if their bosses found out.

Regarding the static thing, well, the various memory card manufacturers do recommend that the contacts be kept away from static charges. The P2 cards are made from electronics chips and as you know, stuff like motherboards and other circuit boards with chips on them don't like static. Thats why you should wear an anti static wristband and earth yourself when handling them. So it is a legitimate concern if only because the various memory card makers themselves have warned in the past about undue contact with the metal contacts.

If anyone plays dirty I can you that Panasonic more than take the award for the most public slagging off of other companies. They even make snipes in their adverts!!

[THoff]

I find Sony's tactics shameful. For a Japanese company to conduct themselves with such a lack of honor is surprising. It smacks of desperation.Nationality has nothing to do with it, honor goes out the window when money gets involved, the same thing happens in every other country.

But let's not forget that these are the same people who brought us the Sony Rootkit which f'd up countless computer systems in a misguided attempt to protect their intellectual property. These people aren't playing with a full deck.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Why are you guys so worked up on ? Just sit back and watch sony $#@$@# up and shoot themselves on the foot. Look at the once meanacing 3 cmos "TRUE" 24p Sony V1u.

[Simon Wyndham]

But let's not forget that these are the same people who brought us the Sony Rootkit which f'd up countless computer systems in a misguided attempt to protect their intellectual property. These people aren't playing with a full deck.

I think you'll find that all Sony's are not the same. Sony is an umbrella under which all the different parts come under. Sony electronics is not the same as Sony Music. Even the consumer and broadcast divisions are totally separate with one not knowing what the other is doing.

With all the piracy going about why shouldn't they try and protect themselves from it? How they went about it was wrong, but the way people talk anyone would think that they have no right to protect themselves from people (perhaps those who are complaining) who want to copy music and get it for free.

[Simon Wyndham]

3 cmos "TRUE" 24p Sony V1u.

Yes, whats the problem? It is true progressive scan. CMOS sensors are natively progressive. Oh, and it was me that discovered the problem with the filtering. Thats nothing to do with whether it is true progressive or not (it is, and anyone that says it isn't is talking the same kind of falsety that they are accusing Sony reps at NAB of doing).

[Simon Wyndham]

) if they'd just put their money where they're mouths are and give people what they want in a prosumer camera.

If the talk on other forums is anything to go by, they have.


The claim that the P2 technology has reached it's limit and "IS DEAD" must have been said a dozen times.

Have you entertained the notion that perhaps they may be right? Sony have stayed out of solid state until now because they didn't feel that the technology was good enough or cheap enough, at least not for the prosumer section of the market. P2 has been out for 4 years now. The interface was superceded almost as soon as it was released. This isn't a rundown of P2, merely an observed fact.

Now consider whether JVC, Canon, and any of the others bring out cards that work with the SxS Express Cards. Even if the recording codecs are different it makes good sens for the different companies to start using the same sorts of cards. That too will help drive prices down.


And it's still going to be GOP??? When will they dump that concept? Next year?

Yes they are going to stick with it, for the following exceptionally good reasons.

1. They are extremely experienced with that method and have got it down to a fine art.

2. While the cards are cheaper than P2 long GOP is still the only way to achieve sensible recording times with it.

3. It is the same 35Mbps format as the current XDCAM HD. That means that the files are totally compatible with existing NLE's (ie so you won't have to wait for NLE makers to catch up and release updates to their programs after the camera is released).

4. The 35Mbps codec is accepted on the current XDCAM 1/2" cameras for unrestricted delivery by THE most fussy broadcasters on the plenet who torture tested the codec to destruction. It passed with flying colours. With that in mind would someone please tell me why they keep going on about how restrictive the codec is?? Its has been proven over and over and over and over and over again how good it is. When will people listen or at least have the courtesy to actually try it for themselves? Am I to believe that the most rigorous broadcasters on the planet have much lower standards than a video hobbyist doing wedding videos?

[Tim Le]

Now consider whether JVC, Canon, and any of the others bring out cards that work with the SxS Express Cards. Even if the recording codecs are different it makes good sens for the different companies to start using the same sorts of cards. That too will help drive prices down.
I could see this happening because ExpressCards is an open format and an IT format at that. JVC is no longer associated with Matsushita and Canon has been acting like a wild animal lately. If they all adopted ExpressCards, it would benefit them as a whole and they would all be basically ganging up on P2, their main competitor in solid state.

[LuckyStudio 13]

It can be express card, it can be super duper express mexpress, it dont have the panasonic picture "mojo". End of story.

[David Jimerson]

Sorry, but this is utterly absurd. I have had the misfortune to listen to Panasonic talks and demos about P2 and they have usually spent around half of it running down the XDCAM disc system. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

In fact one of my colleagues had to do a public talk for Sony about the XDCAM system. In his original draft he pointed out some disadvantages to the P2 system. Nothing nasty, just observations he had made. But he was told by the Sony management that under no circumstances was he allowed to make any such comments about the competition.

Even when I talk on a private level with Sony reps they refuse to make any derogatory comments about Panasonic. Because, and I emphasise this, *it is Sony company policy not to do that*. If any Sony rep was badmouthing Panasonic then they would probably be in a lot of trouble if their bosses found out.

Regarding the static thing, well, the various memory card manufacturers do recommend that the contacts be kept away from static charges. The P2 cards are made from electronics chips and as you know, stuff like motherboards and other circuit boards with chips on them don't like static. Thats why you should wear an anti static wristband and earth yourself when handling them. So it is a legitimate concern if only because the various memory card makers themselves have warned in the past about undue contact with the metal contacts.

If anyone plays dirty I can you that Panasonic more than take the award for the most public slagging off of other companies. They even make snipes in their adverts!!
Sorry, Simon -- I was there and I saw what Sony was doing. What's mentioned here is only the highlights.

And considering the large numbers of random people who all had the same stories about what the Sony reps were saying, there's no way they all made it up.

(Now, has ANYONE, ANYONE at all, EVER reached into their pocket and gotten a static shock off their change? Ever?)

As for the Panasonic reps, while I don't know what every single sales rep said, the ones I heard didn't say a word about Sony at all. And I know for a fact that none of the consultants working in booth did any Sony "slagging," and in fact went out of their way to refuse to.

Now, if you consider putting the various codecs up on plasmas, side-by-side for comparison, to be "slagging," then you have a different definition than I do.

What Sony was/is saying about P2 is just plain flat-out, bald-faced lying.

(And never mind all the Sony guys coming into the booth with their name tags turned around and huddling around the equipment, keeping cameras low and taking pictures. It's not that they were taking pictures -- it's that they were being sneaky about it. They obviously felt a need to hide something. Contrast it with the guys who said, "Hi, we're from Canon. Do you mind if we ask some questions?")

[Simon Wyndham]

What Sony was/is saying about P2 is just plain flat-out, bald-faced lying.

I didn't say anyone was lying. I was saying that it is Sony's policy not to do so and that those reps should not have been slagging off Panasonic. And I'm sorry, but I have been at Panasonic talks where their reps have been openly critical of their rivals. And I urge you to read what I said about a talk the guy I know did for Sony at the Video Forum. Like I said, its the pot calling the kettle black. Panasonic reps do not walk around with glowing white halos above their heads.

[Barry_Green]

But he was told by the Sony management that under no circumstances was he allowed to make any such comments about the competition.
Did you go to the show Simon? Did you see the booth? Did you watch their projection system where they showed a P2 logo with a circle and a slash through it and where they proclaim that "P2 is dead"? If not, please recognize that you're way off base here. We're talking about what actually happened.


Even when I talk on a private level with Sony reps they refuse to make any derogatory comments about Panasonic. Because, and I emphasise this, *it is Sony company policy not to do that*. If any Sony rep was badmouthing Panasonic then they would probably be in a lot of trouble if their bosses found out.
It was pervasive throughout the show. It was company-sponsored. They know exactly who was doing it because -- it was their booth. They did it.


Regarding the static thing, well, the various memory card manufacturers do recommend that the contacts be kept away from static charges. The P2 cards are made from electronics chips and as you know, stuff like motherboards and other circuit boards with chips on them don't like static. Thats why you should wear an anti static wristband and earth yourself when handling them. So it is a legitimate concern if only because the various memory card makers themselves have warned in the past about undue contact with the metal contacts.
Are you trying to say that P2 users should only handle P2 cards while wearing anti-static wristbands?


If anyone plays dirty I can you that Panasonic more than take the award for the most public slagging off of other companies. They even make snipes in their adverts!!
Like "When Sony Innovates, Others Imitate"? I don't recall anyone else producing blu-ray camcorders, but it seems like every major manufacturer is now offering solid state (Panasonic, Red, Thomson, Ikegami, and -- oh yes, Sony). Sorry, you're completely off base on this one. We were at the show. We saw the presentations. We heard the customers. We heard the reports from the CML party on Tuesday where the general gist was that Sony has lost all credibility.

Sony conducted themselves shamefully this year.

[David Saraceno]

No, what Sony is doing is simply "lying" -- and yes, that is exactly what they're doing.

Barry, you and I are talking about two different things.

I agree it is incorrect to state the a p2 card will be damaged when carried in a pocket with change.

But I was talking about saying that the p2 card is dead, and that Sony's products are better than Panasonics.

However, what I don't understand it why this thread isn't locked by now.

Exactly what is being achieved by discussing Sony's reps at NAB?

All the thread does is simply bash Sony's conduct there.

Exactly what is being achieved by this thread?

[David Jimerson]

I didn't say anyone was lying. I was saying that it is Sony's policy not to do so and that those reps should not have been slagging off Panasonic. And I'm sorry, but I have been at Panasonic talks where their reps have been openly critical of their rivals. And I urge you to read what I said about a talk the guy I know did for Sony at the Video Forum. Like I said, its the pot calling the kettle black. Panasonic reps do not walk around with glowing white halos above their heads.

What's "openly critical" for you? We're talking about deliberate misinformation spreading. If the Sony people had simply been pointing out where they honestly felt their products were superior, then hey, that's what they should be doing. But that isn't what were talking about here.

If you've got a Panasonic rep telling someone that you can't carry an XDCAM disc next to loose change for fear of it being erased, then that's one thing. If you've got that rep describing why 35 Mb Long-GOP is technically inferior to intraframe DVCPRO 100, that's quite another.

[Simon Wyndham]

Did you go to the show Simon? Did you see the booth? Did you watch their projection system where they showed a P2 logo with a circle and a slash through it and where they proclaim that "P2 is dead"? If not, please recognize that you're way off base here. We're talking about what actually happened.

I'm sorry I am NOT way off base. I can't speak for NAB, but I can tell you that my friend who did talks for Sony at Video Forum was catagorically told he could NOT under ANY circumstances slag off Panasonic in any way or form. I'm talking about what actually happened in that circumstance. At the same show Panasonic were doing talks about P2 and were openly slagging off XDCAM. Again, I was at that show. So I'm sorry Barry, but I think you just have to admit that Panasonic are not above the tactics that you are criticising even if at NAB they may have restrained themselves. Perhaps Sony had had enough of the way Panasonic has openly criticised XD in the past and they haven't retorted. But this time around they decided to be a lot tougher and play them at their own game.


Are you trying to say that P2 users should only handle P2 cards while wearing anti-static wristbands?

No, I'm making the valid point that in the past memory card manufacturers instructions have included advice not to touch the contacts due to the risk of static. Don't blame the messenger!


Sorry, you're completely off base on this one. We were at the show. We saw the presentations.

Just as you weren't at the show here in the UK Barry.

[David Jimerson]

No, I'm making the valid point that in the past memory card manufacturers instructions have included advice not to touch the contacts due to the risk of static. Don't blame the messenger!
You can't touch the pin contacts of a P2 card.

And again, I ask -- have you ever gotten a static shock off loose change?

[Simon Wyndham]

Okay you guys have beaten me down. Panasonic can do no wrong. They are angels from heaven and their only purpose on earth is to make people happy and joyous despite evil Sony who have come to assimilate everyone and only manufacture products so that people will hate them even more. Panasonic reps walk around in white glowing suits, they never swear, and they never have sex until after they are married.

[taormina]

Hey Simon....why bother defending Sony on a predominantly Panasonic board? You aren't going to make many proselytes here.

BTW....what camera do you have?

[David Jimerson]

Okay you guys have beaten me down. Panasonic can do no wrong. They are angels from heaven and their only purpose on earth is to make people happy and joyous despite evil Sony who have come to assimilate everyone and only manufacture products so that people will hate them even more. Panasonic reps walk around in white glowing suits, they never swear, and they never have sex until after they are married.
Simon, I've asked you for specific examples of what Panasonic reps have done. Care to give any?

But even if you saw a Panasonic rep behaving like a chump, what makes you think we would defend it? (Give it a shot -- what did they do? Specifically? What was slagged, and in what way? I have no doubt that some rep somewhere has done it in some way, so lay it on us.)

And how does it exonerate Sony's behavior at NAB, which is what this conversation is about?

You're deflecting, and trying to make this about something other than what it is. Not sure why, but it's what you're doing.

[William_Robinette]

BTW....what camera do you have?


Why should this matter? All that matters is any given person's particular skills with the set of tools they have chosen to use. Who cares as long as the product is what the client/creator intended.

That questions provokes an inflammatory response.

[Barry_Green]

I'm sorry I am NOT way off base.
Yes, you are, because you're saying that what's being discussed here is "absurd" and that it wouldn't have happened. Yet it did. Did you see who started the thread? Ned Soltz. Not some "panasonic fanboy" or "anti-Sony crusader" but a moderator at 2-pop and a respected journalist for Videography.


I can't speak for NAB, but I can tell you that my friend who did talks for Sony at Video Forum was catagorically told he could NOT under ANY circumstances slag off Panasonic in any way or form.
And yet at NAB, that's exactly what they were doing. But they were doing it by LYING.


So I'm sorry Barry, but I think you just have to admit that Panasonic are not above the tactics that you are criticising even if at NAB they may have restrained themselves.
Sorry, no I don't -- because I don't recall any instance ever of Panasonic flatly lying and deceiving customers and potential customers. Panasonic has openly pointed out the faults of XDCAM and HDV, repeatedly, and quite openly -- by showing the actual product, showing where HDV falls apart, demonstrating how XDCAM doesn't hold up to multiple generations, etc. But at no time did they ever say "and XDCAM is already obsolete and the discs will burst into flames if you store them next to videotapes" or any idiocy like that.

So clarify what you're saying -- are you saying "it's okay for Sony to rag on P2 because Panasonic rags on MPEG-2" or are you saying "it's okay for Sony to lie through their teeth to deceive customers, even though Panasonic has never done that"? Because those are two very different things.


Perhaps Sony had had enough of the way Panasonic has openly criticised XD in the past and they haven't retorted. But this time around they decided to be a lot tougher and play them at their own game.
Their own game? No, more like Sony's game -- "lie through their teeth". That's a totally different game. I think it's more likely that Sony has had enough of plummeting sales and decided that they had to resort to desperation tactics. Which is, again, shameful.


Just as you weren't at the show here in the UK Barry.
And -- what does that have to do with anything? Did anyone come on here and accuse Sony of engaging in deliberately false claims and slagging at the UK show? Did anyone accuse Panasonic of doing such, and I came around saying "oh, of course that's not true, Panasonic has halos and would never do such a thing?"

Point is: the behavior happened, was seen by thousands and thousands of witnesses, and was an orchestrated and deliberate move on Sony's part. And it was pathetic.

[Simon Wyndham]

Yes, you are, because you're saying that what's being discussed here is "absurd" and that it wouldn't have happened.

No, what I said was absurd was the idea that panasonic reps are holier than thou, and that somehow Sony are evil while Panasonic can do no wrong, ever. Please inform me of the exact sentence where I said that anyone here lied? I didn't, you read what you wanted to read.


And yet at NAB, that's exactly what they were doing. But they were doing it by LYING.

you mean in the same way that the Panasonic paper on P2 claims that optical disc (meaning XDCAM) is susceptible to dropouts, errors, and heat and humidity?


demonstrating how XDCAM doesn't hold up to multiple generations, etc.

Actually it holds up better than AVC Intra, but anyway... Why would you be putting it through multiple generations of MPEG compression anyway unless you were constructing a fake scenario that doesn't happen in the realworld workflow. It passed Discovery HD and National Geographics tests for multiple compressions through the broadcast chain with flying colours. How does that tally with Panasonics claims Barry?


XDCAM is already obsolete and the discs will burst into flames if you store them next to videotapes"

No, they do that sort of stuff in the P2 brochures instead ;-) But Panasonic can't be too hard on optical disc because the techy guru they hired in to advise on P2 workflow said that Blu-Ray was one of the main solutions for archiving P2 footage!


"it's okay for Sony to rag on P2 because Panasonic rags on MPEG-2" or are you saying "it's okay for Sony to lie through their teeth to deceive customers, even though Panasonic has never done that"?

No Barry I'm not saying any of those things even though you seem to wish to read it that way. I don't believe I've made a statement on what I think in that regard. So I'll clarify. I don't think it is the right thing to do to slag off any company or tell lies about other companies products. As I said, if they did that then it was against their main policy. Period.


I think it's more likely that Sony has had enough of plummeting sales

Really? What, the plummeting sales of that most unsuccessful of cameras, the Z1 for instance? ;-) And the plummetting sales of XDCAM which is selling so badly that they can't make them fast enough to keep up with the orders? Yep, the sales figures are awful Barry.


And -- what does that have to do with anything? Did anyone come on here and accuse Sony of engaging in deliberately false claims and slagging at the UK show?

Barry, you make me laugh. If you can't get the point I was making then there is no hope. You want to stop arguments on these forums and yet you try to do so with all the finesse of a bull in a Chinashop. I was trying to counter the general concensus here that Sony are evil laying bastards by telling you what I know of their policy. If you want to try and blow things out of proportion, fine Barry.

[Barry_Green]

No, we were countering it by pointing out the evil lies. You trid to counter it by talking theory, we were talking about actual instances.

A prime example: let's take your quote of:

Actually it holds up better than AVC Intra,

Would you care to explain that?

[David Jimerson]

No, what I said was absurd was the idea that panasonic reps are holier than thou, and that somehow Sony are evil while Panasonic can do no wrong, ever.
Who said that, Simon? Where and when? Wait, YOU did. You were the first one to bring it up.





you mean in the same way that the Panasonic paper on P2 claims that optical disc (meaning XDCAM) is susceptible to dropouts, errors, and heat and humidity?
Are you saying it isn't? Are you saying you never get dropouts, errors, or that heat and humidity have no bearing on performance? Are you saying that solid-state, with no moving parts, isn't more resistant to these things?

And you think this is in the same league as saying that carrying a P2 card in your pocket with loose change will erase the card? As saying that getting a P2 card near a CRT screen will erase it?

Heck, for good measure, I just took a consumer compact-flash card and rubbed it against a CRT, then rubbed it all over the floor, then purposely held it in my hand while I generated a static shock. It still works and my files are fine.

Not long ago I accidentally washed a consumer USB thumb drive with my clothes. The case broke. The inside was exposed to the wash. It still worked.

The point is, Sony is making outlandish, ridiculous claims to scare people away from P2. There is no comparison between it and saying that optical disc is susceptible to those things, because optical disc quite simply is, just anything with moving parts is.




Actually it holds up better than AVC Intra, but anyway... Why would you be putting it through multiple generations of MPEG compression anyway unless you were constructing a fake scenario that doesn't happen in the realworld workflow.
The highest number of generations Panasonic demonstrated was three.

1) Capture.

2) Edit>Output.

3) Uplink.

This never happens in the real world?



It passed Discovery HD and National Geographics tests for multiple compressions through the broadcast chain with flying colours. How does that tally with Panasonics claims Barry?
Apples and oranges. There were no claims about about what network broadcast standards are. Only what the footage looks like after a few generations compared to other codecs/formats at the same number of generations. No matter what DHD and NG's standards are, better-looking footage is better-looking footage.




But Panasonic can't be too hard on optical disc because the techy guru they hired in to advise on P2 workflow said that Blu-Ray was one of the main solutions for archiving P2 footage!
You don't do your archiving in field conditions.




I don't think it is the right thing to do to slag off any company or tell lies about other companies products. As I said, if they did that then it was against their main policy. Period.
Then you should be condemning it, instead of trying to damn others, because they did it. And there's no way it wasn't with corporate sanction. It was their booth. It was even in their theater presentation.




I was trying to counter the general concensus here that Sony are evil laying bastards by telling you what I know of their policy. If you want to try and blow things out of proportion, fine Barry.
Dude, YOU WEREN'T THERE. You didn't see what they did.

[Raven Dixon]

What is the matter with you guys? arguing like this. Wouldn't it be more constructive if you actually went out and completed a worthwhile production or something?

Panasonic, or Sony, who cares. I don't believe there is such a thing as a crap camera, only crap cameramen.

So forget the Interframe, Intraframe thing. Most people wouldn't spot the difference on a HD monitor if their lives depended on it anyway, so what does it matter.

And for the record, XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. That's like saying DVCPRO50 is just DV, when we all know it is not as it uses a higher and superior bitrate, just like XDCAM HD does over HDV.

Move on guys, this is really boring.

[David Jimerson]

So stop reading it.

[Raven Dixon]

Wow, that was a really educated response; were you sitting at the computer just waiting for this post David or what?

[Simon Wyndham]

Are you saying you never get dropouts, errors, or that heat and humidity have no bearing on performance?

Yes I am, totally and utterly. And to my knowledge nobody else I have ever come across has either.



The highest number of generations Panasonic demonstrated was three.

Then kindly explain how it passed Discovery HD and National Geographics torture tests that include many more recompression cycles? I trust them far more than a Panasonic demo thanks.


Dude, YOU WEREN'T THERE. You didn't see what they did.

Why do you keep saying this? I never said that they lied! Please read that line and embed it into your mind!

[David Jimerson]

Wow, that was a really educated response; were you sitting at the computer just waiting for this post David or what?

What would you say, if you were a moderator, and someone signed up just so he could post how "boring" a thread is (as well as lecture on stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the actual thread), and then when you gave him the quite sensible and rather easy fix for his boredom, he responded as you did?

Would, mayhaps, the word "troll" come to mind? Think about that and get back to me. :)

[Raven Dixon]

Troll, I doubt it. That's what all you guys say when somebody actually challenges your intellect.

My post had everything to do with the thread. Here it is again as you have obviously forgotten during the past, 9 seconds.

"What is the matter with you guys? arguing like this. Wouldn't it be more constructive if you actually went out and completed a worthwhile production or something?
Panasonic, or Sony, who cares. I don't believe there is such a thing as a crap camera, only crap cameramen.
So forget the Interframe, Intraframe thing. Most people wouldn't spot the difference on a HD monitor if their lives depended on it anyway, so what does it matter.
And for the record, XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. That's like saying DVCPRO50 is just DV, when we all know it is not as it uses a higher and superior bitrate, just like XDCAM HD does over HDV."

There, so pretty relevant to me.

[David Jimerson]

Yes I am, totally and utterly. And to my knowledge nobody else I have ever come across has either.

That was a general "you," and not meant for you specifically, but if that's your experience, then fine. But that's not the same as saying it doesn't happen or that solid state isn't inherently more reliable under those conditions than any mechanism using moving parts.




Then kindly explain how it passed Discovery HD and National Geographics torture tests that include many more recompression cycles? I trust them far more than a Panasonic demo thanks.

Who cares? The demo wasn't about whether or not the footage would make it on TV (I've seen some pretty serious crap on both those networks). It was about how the various codecs looked, comparatively, after the same number of generations, regardless of the use you would put them to thereafter. It was completely up to you to decide which one you liked better.




Why do you keep saying this? I never said that they lied! Please read that line and embed it into your mind!

You seem to think I'm talking about Panasonic here. I'm not. I'm talking about Sony's bald-faced lies. And yes, you never did say that Sony lied. I cannot argue with that.

[Jeff Anderson]

Raven

Umm this thread is about the sony booth at NAB and how people were taken back by Sony's marketing ploys which directly trash the big brother to the camera which is this boards namesake.

Your post is talking about how xdcam is not hdv. and crap cameras. its not a matter of what the footage looks like but that GOP formats are a pain in the ass in post.

[David Jimerson]

Troll, I doubt it. That's what all you guys say when somebody actually challenges your intellect.

My post had everything to do with the thread. Here it is again as you have obviously forgotten during the past, 9 seconds.

"What is the matter with you guys? arguing like this. Wouldn't it be more constructive if you actually went out and completed a worthwhile production or something?
Panasonic, or Sony, who cares. I don't believe there is such a thing as a crap camera, only crap cameramen.
So forget the Interframe, Intraframe thing. Most people wouldn't spot the difference on a HD monitor if their lives depended on it anyway, so what does it matter.
And for the record, XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. That's like saying DVCPRO50 is just DV, when we all know it is not as it uses a higher and superior bitrate, just like XDCAM HD does over HDV."

There, so pretty relevant to me.

The thread is about Sony's conduct at NAB, not about the respective merits of cameras or codecs. Like I said, if it bores you, find something else to read.

Like, for example, the posting guidelines which you'll find at the top of every forum. Particuarly the part about personal insults. :thumbsup:

[taormina]

Sony sucks. There, I said it. Does that "challenge anybody's intellect"?

[puredrifting]

Hi all:

One thing nobody has mentioned in this thread and I am surprised none of you more experiences NAB goers have mentioned it.

Most of the so-called "reps" at NAB booths might as well be transients off of the streets of Vegas for all of the actual correct information they have. I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

My hypothesis is that the companies need so many bodies on the floor to handle the crowds that the real reps are mainly relegated to dealing with the large established clients like the Networks and studios and as you know, they meet in the special off of the floor rooms or at hospitality suites away from the hoi-polloi on the main floor.

Perhaps Jan can verify this but in my experience, it is common for the majority of the "reps" to be people who can stand out on the floor in a suit, handing out brochures and business cards and "trying" to answer questions, many of them uninformed and inane from the general public. Many have told me that they were hired just for NAB. Namy of them are clueless and it would not suprise me one bit if any of them lied or disparaged a competitors product.

FWIW, IMHO Sony is running scared and as a company, they are headed for dire times. As someone who has dealt with Sony consumer electronics division as a retailer and with Sony's broadcast division as a producer and DP, Sony in general is an arrogant company that has lost touch with their customer base. They do make some great products but Panasonic, as a whole, has surpassed them in the marketplace. Sony used to own the industrial/broadcast market and Masushita was a distant second. Now Sony seems to be on the long, slow downhill slide and Masushita/Panasonic is leading the way. And then with companies like RED coming in, all of the rules are changing. But back to the subject at hand, yes, many of the so-called reps at NAB are really clueless and would probably say things that are disparaging.

Best,

Dan

[Jeff Anderson]

Here's my quick stick up for Sony piece - I used to skydive a fair bit and the only consumer camera that would hold up consistently to being tossed out of an airplane are sony handycams. For that they dont suck. Otherwise I concur! Hotels without elevators suck too! (sorry i stayed in one in wichita a couple of weeks ago and I guess I'm still angry about hauling luggage up stairs)

[David Jimerson]

Hi all:

One thing nobody has mentioned in this thread and I am surprised none of you more experiences NAB goers have mentioned it.

Most of the so-called "reps" at NAB booths might as well be transients off of the streets of Vegas for all of the actual correct information they have. I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

My hypothesis is that the companies need so many bodies on the floor to handle the crowds that the real reps are mainly relegated to dealing with the large established clients like the Networks and studios and as you know, they meet in the special off of the floor rooms or at hospitality suites away from the hoi-polloi on the main floor.

Perhaps Jan can verify this but in my experience, it is common for the majority of the "reps" to be people who can stand out on the floor in a suit, handing out brochures and business cards and "trying" to answer questions, many of them uninformed and inane from the general public. Many have told me that they were hired just for NAB. Namy of them are clueless and it would not suprise me one bit if any of them lied or disparaged a competitors product.

There's a possibility that there's some truth to this -- but it doesn't explain what appeared on the screens in Sony's theater, or the conduct of the Sony people in the Panasonic booth, or a number of other things Sony did, etc..

But I would think that most, if not all, of the booths were set up similarly to how Panasonic did theirs -- so that the only people who would be in a position to answer questions or say things like that would be actual employees of the company, independent sales reps, or like us, independent consultants who don't work for the company but use the product and are knowledgeable in the areas of operation and workflow.

I would also think that there would be a vetting process so that anyone hired locally ("off the street") would act according to company policy. If I were running a booth, I would make sure of it -- too much at stake not to.

And additionally, if someone was hired who didn't know a thing about Sony's products, how would they know enough about the competitor's products to make such specific claims about it?

So . . . maybe, but Occam's razor does seem to cut both ways in this case.

[HVXguy]

Hi all:

One thing nobody has mentioned in this thread and I am surprised none of you more experiences NAB goers have mentioned it.

Most of the so-called "reps" at NAB booths might as well be transients off of the streets of Vegas for all of the actual correct information they have. I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

My hypothesis is that the companies need so many bodies on the floor to handle the crowds that the real reps are mainly relegated to dealing with the large established clients like the Networks and studios and as you know, they meet in the special off of the floor rooms or at hospitality suites away from the hoi-polloi on the main floor.

Perhaps Jan can verify this but in my experience, it is common for the majority of the "reps" to be people who can stand out on the floor in a suit, handing out brochures and business cards and "trying" to answer questions, many of them uninformed and inane from the general public. Many have told me that they were hired just for NAB. Namy of them are clueless and it would not suprise me one bit if any of them lied or disparaged a competitors product.

FWIW, IMHO Sony is running scared and as a company, they are headed for dire times. As someone who has dealt with Sony consumer electronics division as a retailer and with Sony's broadcast division as a producer and DP, Sony in general is an arrogant company that has lost touch with their customer base. They do make some great products but Panasonic, as a whole, has surpassed them in the marketplace. Sony used to own the industrial/broadcast market and Masushi*a was a distant second. Now Sony seems to be on the long, slow downhill slide and Masushi*a/Panasonic is leading the way. And then with companies like RED coming in, all of the rules are changing. But back to the subject at hand, yes, many of the so-called reps at NAB are really clueless and would probably say things that are disparaging.

Best,

Dan

Panasonic hires independent producer/shooters/editors as consultants. I was one this year. All the P2 workflow areas were handled by consultants. We know and understand the workflow. Customers could ask why we choose P2 over another system etc. I will relate one story in particular - A hearing imparied gentleman and his sign language translator came over to our area. His translator was signing as I was talking. He looked very confused. His translator said he wanted to see the HPX500 as he has seen all the ads for it in the trades, but was concerned because he had seen the "P2 is dead" banner over at Sony. I quickly stated P2 was not dead. New larger cards were coming out and Panasonic was expanding the lines with new P2 camcorders. He looked relieved. Later I saw them at the other booths and asked the translator if they had any questions. They had just ordered the HPX500.
I did not see the MicroSoft booth saying QuickTime was dead? I did not see the Apple booth with banners stating WMV HD was dead? The AVID booth never said FCP was dead? Why did Sony do what they did? Some mis-informed Ad Agency genius probably came up with the Sony "P2 is dead" slogan. It actually drove a ton of traffic over to the Panasonic booth. Thanks Sony!

[Tim Le]

I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

I agree with you there. When I was at the last DVExpo show, the Sony reps manning the V1U stand seemed very green. The way they recited information was like they were reading from sales info given to them that morning. I asked one guy why the zoom and focus indicators can't show a numbered scale like the HVX200 and he has no clue what I was asking about. Likewise, a Panasonic rep came over to the Sony booth and asked ME what camera the V1U was. He honestly had no idea what it was despite it being introduced months ago at IBC.

With that said, I would have thought that NAB would have high quality reps being a show targeted at broadcast professionals. Either way, it doesn't surprise me what things are said by any company. My momma taught me to never trust a marketing guy.


FWIW, IMHO Sony is running scared and as a company, they are headed for dire times.
Now this I disagree with. I don't think this is accurate. All this does is fan more flames of hate. Maybe they're having problems at the corporate level or other divisions, but I think both Panasonic and Sony are doing well in the broadcast market and neither is "running scared." Here are sales figured released by Sony:

21,000 XDCAM sales worldwide - with 6,000 XDCAM HD sales in its inaugural year
31,000 HDCAM sales worldwide – including 3,400 HDCAM SR
4,300 live production camera sales globally
6,100 switchers sold around the world - including 1,100 HD models
370 SXRD 4K projectors sold

JVC is also doing well, selling something like 20,000 PRO-HD units. Everyone is doing well. I don't think anyone is "running scared."

If Sony was in such a dire situation and was really arrogant, they wouldn't be releasing the XDCAM-EX which is an extremely competitive product. It's giving us more of what we want: larger sensor, manual lens, variable frame rates, and open format solid-state recording. This is all good--people here should applauding Sony in order to make Panasonic listen. Afterall, it was all the applauding of the HVX200 and DVX100 that made Sony make the XDCAM-EX in the first place. So you should be saying "Hey Panasonic, look at what your competition is doing! You should now do something even better than that!" But instead, I'm hearing a lot of defensiveness again Sony. This is understandable sinse this is a Panasonic-centric board, but the smart thing to do when you want your "camp" to act, is to point out what the "other camp" is accomplishing.

[David Saraceno]

Sony sucks. There, I said it. Does that "challenge anybody's intellect"?

We've owned a HVX200 for more than year.

We had various Sonys before then.

To be honest with you, anyone who uses the word "sucks" in a sentence in a professional video editing forum doesn't challenge anyone's intellect in my view.

Discuss features or lack thereof, post, etc. But do it in a way that explains, rather than condemns.

And I don't known why this thread hasn't been closed.

[David Jimerson]

Everybody had Sonys before. But then, everybody used to drive Chevys. You adapt to the times and give your customers what they want, or you get left behind.

[David Saraceno]

As I said, we owned Sonys and now have owned a HVX200 for well over a year. We bought our last Sony long before the HVX200 was even close to being available.

We moved to it after months of consideration and thought to meet our needs in post, and for DVD production. The Sony long GOPs couldn't produce an image that could satisfactorily be encoded to DVD. The Sony produced a great image in our opinion, and that of our clients. But it didn't hold up in post. We also felt the VFR were an excellent selling point that the Sony couldn't equal.

But Sonys aren't Chevys, and saying that Sonys "suck" brings nothing to an intelligent discourse.

Why isn't this thread closed David?

What does Sony bashing here have to do with the HVX200?

[taormina]

No, you're right. They suck and blow. That's what Bart Simpson, a paradigm of intelligence would say.

[cici]

A friend of mine is XDCAM user and he's reporting 4 dropouts in some thousand hours of footage (btw: XDCAM shows hours of use in the menu). This statistic shows: dropouts definitely HAPPEN with professional discs, but may be very rare....

besides:

I have been using 3 Sony cameras ...... before changing to Panasonic :) - So to say: I grew up with Sony and got adult with Panasonic.

(over 20 years TV-sets from Sony..... and MiniDisc .... DVD-Player ... and more .... before changing to Panasonic. For good reasons in each case.)

[David Saraceno]

No, you're right. They suck and blow. That's what Bart Simpson, a paradigm of intelligence would say.

Res ipsa loquitur

[David Jimerson]

Res ipsa loquitur

Which is true of Sony's behavior at NAB.

But I'll agree that this probably doesn't belong in HVX News, so I'm moving it.