HVX200B? When?

[arrestthisman]

I know Jan said no new HVX200 this year, but that begs the question... when?

I just got my HVX200 a few months ago, so I'm a little late in the game. I know it's not that late, and it's everything I could ever want in a camera, but I'm always one for value, and I'm a little insecure about panny coming out with the sequel next year.

Actually as I write this, even if I sell this cam eventually and move to the revision if it has some killer feature, it would be worth it to learn the P2 workflow this year.

I'm not one for schooling. My learning comes from doing. It's not for everyone, but that's how I learn the best. So I'm not, by any means expressing regret.

Still, I think it's a valid question to ponder.... when will the revision arrive, and what are the likely improvements?

I doubt they'll change anything with the imager because it's already stunning.

I know they changed the DVX CCDs on the B revision to be less noisy. (Was it really that big of a difference?) So acutally, maybe that would be on the list?

Ideas?

[taormina]

:laugh:I already have mine. Didn't they tell you about it?

[David Saraceno]

What would be a "killer feature?"

[TwistedLincoln]

Well my guess is that an HVX200a will come before a HVX200b... :)

I don't think we'll be seeing a major update to the HVX until at least NAB 2008 or 2009. Especially considering that the HVX has upgradable firmware.

[William_Robinette]

Why does it matter?

You already have the camera, go shoot with it. It works and delivers stunning pictures. I don't understand the point of this thread.

[David Saraceno]

I don't see any harm is evaluating what revisions seems destined for the HVX200. But I doubt we'll see a "killer feature."

What is more likely are minor updates.

Hopefully starting with the lousy 4 pin FW connector.

[dvInsight]

We might not get a 200a or b. We might get a 300 or 400. Think about what would make our lives easier.
1. SDI or HDMI Out instead of that lousy componenet out.
2. Timecode support so you could work easily on Union shoots with pro audio guys.
3. Improved Firewire connectivity
4. Improved LCD with 35mm flip capability.
5. Improved low light performance.

Those things warrant a new model number in my mind and maybe a $1,500 premium in price. Now with the threat of a Mini Red coming out, I am hoping that that Pany will give us an HJVX300 or 400 with the above stuff and 0 price increase.

I would hate to be Jan right now. "A Mini Red? WTF?" I can hear her calling Japan right now and starting to figure out how to compete against the unknown. I am sure the product managers at Canon and Sony are doing the same. No wait, Sony knows everything and will introduce another new format.

Oh and for me, Feature #6 would be to drop the tape all together and give me 1 or 2 more P2 slots. Heck I used the tape mechanism for the first time yesterday to transfer some foooty from a 100 in 24pa, and I could have used my deck, but I thought I might actually see if the tape mech worked.

--
Rob

[taormina]

Dvinsight, the cam you are speaking of very nearly resembles the HPX500. Not sure panny wants to kill that segment. As for mini red? I don't think Panny gets too excited when they hear of more red vaporware.

Don't get me wrong, Red one is almost out, but the bottom line with anything red does is I will get excited about it when I can buy it. Touch it, feel it...not some BS reservation number. Until that day comes, I don't think any big manufacturer gets too excited about more of red's ruminations.

[dvInsight]

Dvinsight, the cam you are speaking of very nearly resembles the HPX500. Not sure panny wants to kill that segment. As for mini red? I don't think Panny gets too excited when they hear of more red vaporware.

Don't get me wrong, Red one is almost out, but the bottom line with anything red does is I will get excited about it when I can buy it. Touch it, feel it...not some BS reservation number. Until that day comes, I don't think any big manufacturer gets too excited about more of red's ruminations.

Agreed, what I speak of is very much like HVX500, except the 500 has interchangable lens, 2/3" sensors, and is in a larger ENG config. I say give us a 500 with a fixed lens, smaller sensor if Panny has to, and all the other goodies I mentioned and call it a 300 or 400 and price it under 9K and you would have a great product.

As far as Red goes, I don't think that vaporware is quite fitting. Just like when Apple came out with the original 300 dpi Laserwriter in the mid 80's using Adobe's Postscript imaging language. All of the big typesetting companies laughed at a $7,000 laser printer. Well that printer and the Mac was an industry changing event. I think the Red camera will be seen the same way a few years from now.

This time though, product managers know the score and have the opportunity to create competive products to the Red, and I think most will do so if management does not get in the way and try to "protect" their more expensive offerings.

As for me, I work with and like many aspects of my HVX200. But boy, I would really like it better if it just had SDI and time code. Yeah I know what Canon has, but I like my variable frame rates.

Give them all another 6 to 12 months and I think we will have many more things to think about.

__

Rob

[arrestthisman]

Interesting, you know I forgot about the firmware thing...

I think the components in the DVX100a/b are pretty much the same but the DVX did not have upgrable firmware.

The low light performance will be addressed via firmware maybe? I doubt they'd change the imagers with the kind of performance they get now...

Well, Bennis, according to your logic, why don't we just close down the forums? Why do we need to ask anything? We should just use our cameras?

Why are you on a board preaching about not talking?

To everyone else, thanks for the opinions. I agree wholeheartedly.

It's just with three versions in three years for the DVX, it begs the question for the HVX200.

[taormina]

As I pointed out on another thread, Red may change the indie filmmaking industry, but they are probably unable to put out the sheer numbers of cams that a large network or ENG force might require. Panny and Sony have nothign to worry about sales wise.

Yeah but it does 4K!!! - Great - give me 1000 of them next week....uh.....that's a problem.....

As much as I want a red.....until it's available I will call it the "Manana Cam" ...cause whenever you check on whether it's shipping they say...manana! LOL!

[arrestthisman]

I dunno, if they paid in advance I bet RED would get the lead out!

Think about it. 15 and a half million for an advance order of body only cameras!

That almost 80- billion dollars!

[dregenthal]

Me thinks this camera is still flying off the shelves.

I would almost bet if/when we see an "A" model is will only include minor refinements, e.g., "the flip" but nothing major (or worth holding out for).

I shot almost two hours of the AVP Pro Volleyball event in Miami last weekend (handheld no less) and I'm doing cartwheels. Very difficult to beat this camera at the price point.

I sold my DVX when I moved to the HVX. I can't imagine an improvement that would cause me to off this cam for an "A" model.

[blckhawk542]

I think any updates should just be through the firmware...and maybe the HDMI would be a nice feature..but not everything can be done with software...

[Ernest_Acosta]

Well interchangeable lens would be a good improvement but how about 1080P/24P recording and an uncompressed out connection and throw in a 20X zoom lens and that would be good. Besides that, the camera is perfect.

[HVXguy]

I worked the Pana booth all week. No one from Panasonic said anything about an updated HVX200. The big thrust was the HPX500. Many shooters would go back and forth all day between the Panasonic and Sony booths. Once they saw the P2 workflow and the quality difference between DVCPRO HD and XDCAM ER - it was a no-brainer. Many shooters were ordering an HVX and the HPX. 16 gigs cards start shipping in may for $900. The HPX500 packages will ship with 4-16 gig cards.

[arrestthisman]

I love my cam and don't believe it will become obsolete any time soon. I just was curious. As I said there were so many versions of the DVX, it made me wonder.

I almost think that those DVX revisions were in prep for the HVX to make it perfect the first time round. They share much of the same software; the DVX-B and the HVX.

Yeah little things here and there. It will always be fixed lens because the HPX500 is the HVX200 with the intrchangable lens.

MMM....

I think firmware will cover 90% of any revisions and maybe an A revision would have an HDMI. Still I'd rather opt for hydra than the A revision whatever it may be.

God I'm just so happy about this. It's my birthday in a week, and I already have a cam that'll last me the next 5 -10 years. (with hydra).

uncomrpessed RAW 2k is the future. 4k is for theater only, really, just don't need it. Not knocking red at all. It's all great!

I think we're all damn damn lucky to live in this day and age where we have these tools. Quality aside, p2 has changed my life.

- Alex

[Mavoz]

I think we're all ......... lucky to live in this day and age where we have these tools. Quality aside, p2 has changed my life.

- Alex
Very true...it's interesting reading through various forums on the debates about this spec, that feature on various cams etc.etc...but in the big picture what an amazing age we live in, when the average Joe can purchase a device that can capture moving pictures and sound so simply....imagine if they'd had even dvx's for the last 500 years...imagine being able to view history in full moving colour....

Many of us don't have much of a clue about the people beyond our Grandparents...but for our descendents it will be a very different story...

[arrestthisman]

Mayoz...That is a great point. I need to call my stoner friends ASAP and tell them to ponder this while they listen to Jane's Addiction this 4/20 :)

[emu]

Hi,

I read in a German Forum, where they have tested the HVX200 (http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Panasonic-HVX200.html) that around the end of this year the successor of the HX200 will be the HVX210 (so there will be no HVX200a or b ).

They don´t know anything in detail, but it was written in this article that Panasonic has confirmed that the new cam will be called HVX210. Belonging to rumors, the new cam will also provide SDI Outputs - but that is not confirmed (only rumors).

It was the first time, I read about an HVX210. Was this mentioned here before (then I missed it) ?

[arrestthisman]

Jan at panasonic has already confirmed, "no new hvx this year." So I doubt the validity of an HVX210 reported for the end of the year.

MY biggest concern is that Panny would make improvments to the imagers which could not be done via firmware.

That said, I doubt that would happen since Juan is prepping Hydra for the HVX200. I would think that he'd put such a thing off for a while if he knew of a new version coming out within 2 years that would have any significant improvements.

Again this is all speculation, andI really started this thread out of insecurity since, as I statd, I bought the camera after it's been out for a year, and theDVX had a new version every year.

I don't think history is going to repeat itself in this instance, and if it does, I saved so much money by waiting to buy (for lots of reasons), if I had to sell this in 8 months to get the new version for some reason I could afford the financial hit.

I'm predicting an announcement of a successor in 2008, next NAB, with delivery mid-2009. I think the successor will not be the same cam, I think it will be different and work alongside the existing HVX200. Perhaps an HPX100, a slightly smaller cam with no tape deck. Panny struck gold with their imager setup so my guess is only minor refinements there. Perhaps the new one may have AVC-HD in it.

I think the new model would be to cross into a different market, perhaps.

The more I think about it, the less I think we'll be seeing revisions.

[John Trent]

Jan said no new model this year. I love that Panasonic will tell you such things, unlike the other companies. I also read a post where a person was told no new cam for 11 months.

I wonder if the new HVX model will just be a slight change. Maybe lower noise and digital noise reduction controls added. I think it'd be great if they competed with the Sony XDCAM EX with a new 1/2" 3ccd AVC-Intra cam for $8,000. That would be truly awesome.

As for the german slashcam site, they also leaked a Sony Z2 upcoming in July. We'll see.

[arrestthisman]

Hmmm... Maybe. They could push the resolution a bit with 1/2".

Right now the native pixels on the CCDs in the HVX are the same size as the RED's. Therefore, I think they have a good thing going; they're not going to want to screw up the good looks they're getting. Also with the HPX500, my guess is THAT was the HVX update.

To me it looks like Panasonic is getting away from updating products, but instead, rolling out new ones and discontinuing when interest fades in an older products, IF that happens. Like look at the HPX2000 and 3000. They are NOT replacing the varicam. People still go for that too.

They have a very diverse lineup. The right cam for the right job. Then they have the products like the HVX, which is a workhorse meant to be able to do everything.

It's impossible to tell what the future is for our little cam, but Jan has intimated that the roadmap for panny-cams are very very long.

With a statement like nothing new this year, I think it's fair to speculate that they have a good thing going, and no big requests (feasible requests) from the users.

I think the DVX revisions were really in prep for the HVX, and to future-proof the DVX, as the go to SD cam for 24p for the future.

Then again I just don't know.

The problem with digital is the obsolescence factor. I know personally I worry alot about my brilliant cam looking like old news in the future. Something the film community doesnt have to worry about, especially while we're seeing so much transition these days. That said, this stuff isn't that expensive. I'd feel much worse if I invested in an f900 five years ago!

Then you have guys like david lynch... shooting on a pd150... not a 170, a PD150.

I've been very active on the boards lately while I'm getting over a long term infection, but I'm looking forward to getting outside of my head again, and working.

It's good to think about these things, but then one needs to call it quits eventually. Otherwise you can keep going and analyzing until we ask the BIG questions and blow our brains out.

I have a camera that I love, I know it won't be obsolete this year, and probably not next year; I'll deal with it when it comes, of course it's all academic since I'd rather put the money towards hydra than buying the new revision IF they even come up with one. Which they probably wont.

I'm guessing in 2009 we'll see the HVX250, sans a deck, 4.5lbs weight or less, MAYBE bigger chips (though I doubt it), and they'll leave the hvx200 on the market until it stops selling.

[Evolve]

I think we're all damn damn lucky to live in this day and age where we have these tools.....

- Alex

.....so that we can document the destruction of our planet with breathtaking resolution. Damn, I feel lucky.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Haha, I must have a time machine because I already have the HVX200p.... oh wait

[mcgeedigital]

.....so that we can document the destruction of our planet with breathtaking resolution. Damn, I feel lucky.

For some people the glass is always half empty. :violin:

[taormina]

.....so that we can document the destruction of our planet with breathtaking resolution. Damn, I feel lucky.


ooooooh. That was politically charged. :violin:

[Barry_Green]

Politics are one of the forbidden topics on DVXUser. Please take political discussions to other forums where such topics are more appropriate. Thanks.

[Evolve]

For some people the glass is always half empty. :violin:

For some people science is Monster Garage. see taormina.

[Evolve]

Politics are one of the forbidden topics on DVXUser. Please take political discussions to other forums where such topics are more appropriate. Thanks.

No problem Barry.
Cheers

[taormina]

And the problem with Monster Garage is?

[Aculag]

Right now the native pixels on the CCDs in the HVX are the same size as the RED's.

What? Are you serious? How is it that RED can get a 4k image if that's true? Is there some kind of voodoo that I'm not understanding here? Please explain. :)

[Barry_Green]

Red's sensor is waaaaaaaaay bigger than the HVX's. The HVX sensor is about 5x3mm or so, the Red sensor is 24x12 or so. So it's about 5x as wide, 4x as tall, or about 20x as big. Lots more room to fit more pixels, but the individual pixel sizes are about the same as the HVX's.

[Aculag]

Oh, okay. That makes WAY more sense now. Thanks, Barry. You're always putting me in my place. :)

[arrestthisman]

Yes aculag, that's basically what I said. I was speaking about the individual pixels NOT the chip size or total resolution.

uhhhh, yeah....

Anyway, I'm not one for specs though. I just got my new pocket-cg65 cam in the mail for fun /w friends (nothing pro or serious), and I swear the picture is better than a 700$ range miniDV camera. It records in AVC h.264. Not sure what the bit rate is, but like so clean. No compression artifacts. efc. Smooth as butter, way better about aliasing than miniDV. and it's a 300$ sd pocket cam. Go figure.

BUT, if specs are anything, I think the Hydra setup will edge out the SI-2k setup. If it were between a mini and hydra, I think I'd go for hydra, because I'm fairly certian that the pixels they're craming into the single 2/3" sensor are smaller than the 1/3" spread across the HVX array. This is where the pixel size issue we just had enters in. Plus 14-bit versus 12-bit. and works on Mac, AND PC, I'm a mac boy, and so far mini-2k is only PC.

I've seen SI-2k's samples and they look damn good, so I think they are both good options, but I guess what I mean to say is, no matter what revision comes out hydra will level out the playing field, and I'm sure many of us indies ARE planning on hydra if we want to stay loyal to our pannies.

I love the look. I love the motion. I love the color. The philosophy.

Between the RED, Hydra, SI-2k, and the plethora of other options approaching, as long as we stay up to date, aquire standards, and learn the skills to extract the best we can from out tools I think the next ten years will produce some very good films, and just as interesting, will be the new methods of distribution.

Honestly ask most people and they'll tell you they prefer their HDTV to the theater any day. Everyone I know with a plasma, or a projector feels that way. (especially when you own your own projector. Man I go to the theaters and pick out the flaws, blur in the corner, and how bad the keystone is for most screens. It's pathetic.)


With DRM-awareness coming out and hollywood deciding to put a bullseye on their foot when it comes to next-gen formats... DIY distro in high-def is the future in my opinion.

That does mean the well will run dry for a while as things change, but it's worth it.

Imagine five years from now... customers turn on hollywood, DRM is as evil as murder in the public eye, and movies are freely distributed on the internet at LOWER prices than now for download to a home media center with 1080p screens with 2000:1 contrast ratios on average.

The marketplace will shift from who you know, and contracts to who makes the best movies wins. It WILL happen.

Ironically I think it will break more dreams than now. As it stands, hollywood still gambles on a lot of talentless people. If the marketplace becomes truely product-driven, only the most talented will survive.

And budgets that big filmmakers are used to now will NEVER happen again. They really won't. The NY times did a huge article about how studios are aquiring financing with other studios, but are increasinly turning to movie-investment funds (like mutual funds for hollywood), the fund managers are pushing for lower budgets. That is #1 on their agenda.

The new wave of investment, period, is based on what my broker calls the "barbell." Higher diversification through controlled high-risk investment. In other words, 60% of your portfolio is very conservative, like bonds, 20% is cash, and the remainder is put into tempered funds of all high risk capital.

That is the future for film. In fact you could probably clock those numbers in, and it'll come pretty close. 60% traditional-big budget, known actors, in the genere of comedy or action, I don't know what cash or liquids would be analagous to, but the rest would be indie investing.

It's good that the big guys are losing money, every time that happens, there is change for the better.

Rant over.

The point is, and I think I've said this all throughout my post, that the HVX200 will get a revision next year maybe....

haha
- a;lex

[taormina]

Barry - care to comment on a Hydraized HVx vs SI2K?

[Barry_Green]

Haven't looked at the SI 2K, so -- no opinion there. I'd expect a 2/3" chip could outperform three 1/3", but other than that I'd have to try 'em side by side to know what the real outcome is.

[TimurCivan]

you know what would be AMAZING. 100mbps 24pn. Just cut a full bandwidth 100mbps into thoes native 24 frames.

[Barry_Green]

Doesn't work that way. The compression ratio on DVCPRO-HD is fixed. What they could maybe do is 80mbps 1080/24pN, but it'd involve recording a non-standard format so I wouldn't expect them to actually do it...

[TimurCivan]

i was just giving a hypothetical..... but cmon that would be pretty sweet... :)

[Barry_Green]

It would, I'm just saying that it won't happen because the DVCPRO-HD compression isn't scalable. With AVC they could do it...

[TimurCivan]

Ohhhhh.... AVCintra where are you?

[HVXguy]

AVC Intra

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=103537&catGroupId=15768&surfModel=AJ-HPX2000

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=113565&modelNo=Content04132007031709949&surfModel=Content04132007031709949

[arrestthisman]

Barry, the thing is, though that SI-2k will be a single sensor 2/3" chip.

Versus HVX

three 1/3" sensors shifted with hydra to behave single sensor-ish. Also, with hydra, the ADAC is 14-bit not 12. Also because SI-2k records to cineform, recording is limited to 10bit for now. Not bad at all, but for HVX owners, going on specs, I think hydra would win, we just need to to see pics. Si- LOOKS fantastic.

A side by side comparison would need to be in order.

[David Newman]

SI-2K will easily out perform a hydra modified HVX. The single sensor doesn't have overlaped pixels so it can resolve a higher resolution image, whereas pixel shift can't go as far. 3 x 1k x 0.5k pixels is less than one 2k x 1k sensor, so even if pixel-shift was equivalent, it couldn't match the SI-2K. Yes the compression is 10-bit, but is 10-bit LOG from the very clean 12-bit linear source, more bits will not help if they only contains noise. Compressing images from a Arri D20 or Red One, also only has 12-bit linear best compressed to 10-bit log. Viper Filmstream is 10-bit log. Film scans 10-bit log. You get the idea ;)

[Weston]

And budgets that big filmmakers are used to now will NEVER happen again. They really won't. The NY times did a huge article about how studios are aquiring financing with other studios, but are increasinly turning to movie-investment funds (like mutual funds for hollywood), the fund managers are pushing for lower budgets. That is #1 on their agenda.

I don't think big budgets will end. They may lower overall...but there will always be people daring enough to spend more than has ever been spent before to try and make something new and exciting.

[Barry_Green]

SI-2K will easily out perform a hydra modified HVX.
I would expect it to as well, but let's wait and see before making blanket proclamations like that, because you may end up being surprised.


The single sensor doesn't have overlaped pixels so it can resolve a higher resolution image
Huh? Only in black and white! Yes it has more pixels, but they need to be overlapped or else you're only looking at a monochrome image. If you stripped out the bayer filter then yes you'd get a 1920x1080 image at full resolution, but because there's a bayer filter in place you have to combine pixels (in a process that's remarkably similar to pixel shift) in order to get color from the sensor.

whereas pixel shift can't go as far. 3 x 1k x 0.5k pixels is less than one 2k x 1k sensor, so even if pixel-shift was equivalent, it couldn't match the SI-2K.
Again, that remains to be seen. If I'm reading the spec sheet properly, the SI-2K has a bayer'ed 1920x1080 single sensor, which means its actual pixel count is 960x540 blue and 960x540 red, and 960x1080 green, with 5-micron pixels. The HVX has 960x540 blue and 960x540 red and 960x540 green, with 5-micron pixels. So yes the green is higher, but the HVX also uses vertical spatial offset (something that AFAIK has never been done before) so ... it's too early to tell, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Hydra results are *extremely* competitive with the SI-2K. Soon enough the results will speak for themselves.

Considering the amazing results Juan got from a standard-def DVX, I think it would be unwise and premature to dismiss what he'll be able to pull from an HVX; we should let the results speak for themselves.

[ksteiger]

Unless there is a new HVX200 model that provides a perfect script and actors without egos, I am perfectly happy NOW ! Sometimes I think some people on this forum spend too much time fantasising and not enough time shooting.
Carpe Diem.

[Aculag]

Yes aculag, that's basically what I said. I was speaking about the individual pixels NOT the chip size or total resolution.
Yeah, I just misunderstood. I'm not used to hearing people talk about pixel size instead of chip size or resolution round these parts. Maybe I just don't pay enough attention. Hehe.

[arrestthisman]

Unless there is a new HVX200 model that provides a perfect script and actors without egos, I am perfectly happy NOW ! Sometimes I think some people on this forum spend too much time fantasising and not enough time shooting.
Carpe Diem.
Then what are you doing here? :)

Just kidding.

Acutally I've been bed ridden with an infection so I've been hanging out here for a while, but I get back to work on Monday and then no one will have to deal with me here :)

Back to the SI2k debate: Anyone who has seen andromeda samples knows that Juan pulled such a clean image, it's almost hard to believe they came off a DVX. Given that the HVX has so much more to work with, I don't think it's a pipe dream to expect amazing results.

The SI-2k can produce some beautiful images, and now that Barry has identified it has having 5micron pixels I'm not as surprised at the results. But on look alone I think andro could go head to head with SI-2k any day (if si-2k was cropped for the same resolution), therefore I don't think it's impossible for the Hydra to come out on top visually speaking.

I think they are both amazing solutions. For me though, now knowing that hydra pulls sync sound, and being under the impression that SI-2k does not, I doubt the edge of SI-2ks picture, IF there turns out to be one, would sway me.

What it all comes down to is that IMO, I think they'll be in the same league quality-wise. I think they are both excellent options for people who aren't ready or don't need 4k.

And not that I'm a RED skeptic, because I'm not, but I just don't think they'll be shipping big numbers for a few years. I think they'll deliver everything promised, and THEN some, but it'll be wait after wait after wait. So unfortunately, to me it's not a viable solution to use unless I have it in my hands. But I'm glad it's there.

The more I spend looking at all of the digital cinema choices available, the more it makes me want start writing, and working again... because I think we've hit the time where digital filmmakers no longer have to justify themselves against film. The quality is now there. It's cheap, (compared to film), and it's a workflow my generation is far more comfortable with.

This is a great year for everyone because we can work, and know that we'll be able to achieve the results we want in the digital ream without worry or sacrifice. We're getting closer to the dream of creativity being the only barrier for film. Like writing. Pen and paper were not always so cheap; now with word processing, it's all in the imagination. We're getting close for film. 10 years and we might even get there!

Good times!

[Barry_Green]

One area where the SI-2K will have an undeniable lead is in getting the shallow-DOF look; when using 2/3" lenses you'll get Super16-class DOF, whereas the HVX is going to deliver Super8-class DOF.

[Mediacre]

I’m pretty sure the SI2K will outperform a hydra HVX200. I know we need to wait and see but everything points to that direction. First the SI can use the best glass available while the HVX200 will always be limited to it’s fixed lens. I don’t think a $4,000 camera comes with a lens good enough to resolve 2K. That’s why it’s hard to believe you will get real 2K with hydra, even if it does wonders with the pixel shift.
Then the bigger 2/3” CCDs will surely have some advantages over the tiny 1/3” sensor in the HVX200.
Quite frankly I’m not even sure you would get much better results with hydra as opposed to just capturing uncompressed 4:2:2 DVCPROHD via the component out or uncompressed from the HD SDI out of the Canon XL-H1. Since with hydra you are linked to a computer no matte what, just get a Decklink and capture uncompressed. The decklink is surely much cheaper than hydra will probably be.

[TimurCivan]

im wondering what the noise floor will be like on the HYDRA.

[evinsky]

The real advantage of the Hydra, SI2K & Red is the RAW workflow. It really is amazing how much is lost in the DSP.

[Barry_Green]

Exactly, and that's what's being missed here. Put an XLH1 through HD-SDI to a Decklink capturing through DVCPRO-HD and you're still getting 8-bit data. The Hydra is 14 bits.

I would expect that the SI should outperform a hydra'd HVX, but put another way: it had better, or else it'll end up looking pretty silly. But even so, I wouldn't bet against Juan and the Hydra'd HVX, at least until it's had a chance to prove itself. We haven't seen a single frame from the Hydra yet.

[TimurCivan]

well based on how great andromeda looked, i imagine hydra to look quite remarkable.

watch that foggy beach clip on the website.... YOWSA

[Mediacre]

Yes, I know RAW is a big improvement, but that is basically a color improvement. I was talking resolution. Do you guys really think the HVX200 lens is good enough for 2K? I can't see that when true real HD lenses cost 4 times more than the HVX itself. If the lens can't record it it doesn't matter what the hydra pixel shift does.
I'm not sure the bit increase alone is worth the mod unless for effects. That would be most useful for effects work. To be an all around worthwhile mod it would have to deliver the promised 2k resolution. But I don't see how if it has to go through the fixed HVX lens. The SI2K can use Digiprimes if you want. That should beat the HVX lens by light years. No arguing in my opinion. No way hydra will come close to the SI2K IMO. Not ditching Juan's efforts. It's just logic.

[arrestthisman]

Yes, I know RAW is a big improvement, but that is basically a color improvement. I was talking resolution. Do you guys really think the HVX200 lens is good enough for 2K? I can't see that when true real HD lenses cost 4 times more than the HVX itself. If the lens can't record it it doesn't matter what the hydra pixel shift does.
I'm not sure the bit increase alone is worth the mod unless for effects. That would be most useful for effects work. To be an all around worthwhile mod it would have to deliver the promised 2k resolution. But I don't see how if it has to go through the fixed HVX lens. The SI2K can use Digiprimes if you want. That should beat the HVX lens by light years. No arguing in my opinion. No way hydra will come close to the SI2K IMO. Not ditching Juan's efforts. It's just logic.

That's not really logic, more like opinion mixed with information that is generally regarded as true.

Also, RAW is far more than just a color improvement, It enables greater dynamic range, and non-destructive color correction in post, depending on one's workflow.

We've already seen the results from andromeda, and like I said, put it side by side with SI-2k footage and it looks very similar, qualitatively speaking. Since we can only estimate that hydra will look better than andromeda, and at a higher resolution... well, just use your imagination.

Also, about the lens. The HVX is a 1080p camera, we can argue about the ins and outs of how it achieves the resolution, but the native res, coming off of the array is 1440 x 810, it's then expanded to 1920 x 1080, and resterwised to 1280 x 1080p for DVCPRO HD. The idea is that this camera was engineered to offer 1080p.

There is a bigger difference between 720p and 1080p than I was led to believe when I bought the camera. People were quoting a 10% improvment or so, and I think it looks about 20% at the very least.

In short, I don't believe the bottleneck is the lens. Especially since fixed lenses can get away with a bit more murder being that they are engineered specifically for their CCD arrays. Interchangable lenses have their own issues to overcome. Remember that the HPX500 has a special DSP system in place to deal with the abberation problems inherent to interchange lens systems.

Yes digiprime lenses are better, but they are not made to fit like a glove to any given camera.

Also, I had a good chat with a guy who does 35mm lens adapters for the HVX, and his theory, which made sense to me, was that since the fixed lens is zoomed past the center and the focus is on the ground glass, the interference of the fixed lens is almost nil. (The theory came after the results. Anybody who's seen footage of a properly mounted 35mm adapter on an HVX is stunned by the results and aside from the light loss is damned to find any degradation in the image.)

Back to Brass Tacks, at has to do with the final image. Period. Specs aside, it's all about what you see with a trained eye. The lens on the DVX is an SD-fixed lens. But andromeda certianly resolves at least 720p (and more if you look at the higher quality samples).

By YOUR logic that would be impossible because it's an SD lens.

My final point is simple that Juan has a track record, he said he'd do what most people thought impossible with andromeda, and delivered. He's saying he's gotten the same principal off the HVX, and I don't see any reason to doubt.

The only reason I compare hydra to the SI-2k, specifically the mini is because they are in similar price ranges, and are both RAW 2k cameras.

6K + 3.5K(mod) + 2.5K(laptop and storage) in $ = 12k for the hydra

SI-2k is 12 - 14 k for the mini + 2.2k for a digiprime + 2k for laptop

So they are both in the 12 to 18k price range to get up and running. Ironically, not THAT far off from the RED. price order = hydra/SI/RED. In like 6 grand increments. 12/18/24 to get up and running for 2k RAW cinema.

Then there's the other advantage with the HVX that you have the possibility of 2k cinema when tethered but also a compressed HD and SD camera for run and gun, unthered. Lot's of options in one little package. AND it includes the deck! It's a great value.

Again, I think the SI-2k is awesome. And it may pull a better image, and will certianly have DOF advantage (unless you put an M2 on the HVX, then the HVX has the advantage), but I could forsee a future where you have films using both cameras. They could easily match up because of the easy LUTs on their respective systems, and they are both RAW.

I think they will be very competitve, and SI-2k will have an edge for people ONLY involve with cinema, and Hydra will make more sense for people who need more options with a smaller crew, and also if you're like me, a deep DOF is a plus. f64 rules :)

[Barry_Green]

But I don't see how if it has to go through the fixed HVX lens.
Of course a DigiPrime will beat the HVX lens (or, at least, it certainly should).

But the biggest problem I have with your argument is that it's reliving the arguments of the past, where people made sweeping proclamations based on some specs, while disregarding the actual observable evidence we have in front of us. How can you say the HVX lens won't hold up? We have evidence that the DVX lens (the "standard-def" lens on the standard-def DVX) does a fine job of resolving a high-def image, delivering higher resolution images than the HD lenses on the HD100 and Z1, and by a decent margin. That's already been demonstrated by Andromeda, the footage already exists. So to assume that the HVX's even-better Leica Dicomar won't be up to the task seems presumptuous at best. Let's look at footage before you say the footage won't hold up!

I mean, I was one of the biggest arguers about lenses being the limiting factor for small HD cameras; it simply did not mathematically add up that we'd be getting decent-performing lenses on these small cameras. But you know what? The lens on a $925 Canon HV20 delivers a high-def image. There's no way it should, but it does. It doesn't matter that we don't understand how, all that really matters is that it does it. I have no doubts that the HVX lens will be PLENTY adequate to the task. And sooner or later we'll have actual images and photographic evidence that will answer the question definitively, so why stress about it? It either will or it won't, but if the last couple of years have taught us anything it's that "theory" gets its *** kicked by "reality" every single day.

[arrestthisman]

HERE HERE Barry! That was exactly my point, of course, as always your explaination sums it up more quickly and pithy, but yeah.

It all comes down to the image, period. You can argue theory till you're blue in the face, but if you have an image, especially a charted image, there's no more talking, it's either there or not there.

[Antoine_Fabi]

Of course a DigiPrime will beat the HVX lens (or, at least, it certainly should).

But the biggest problem I have with your argument is that it's reliving the arguments of the past, where people made sweeping proclamations based on some specs, while disregarding the actual observable evidence we have in front of us. How can you say the HVX lens won't hold up? We have evidence that the DVX lens (the "standard-def" lens on the standard-def DVX) does a fine job of resolving a high-def image, delivering higher resolution images than the HD lenses on the HD100 and Z1, and by a decent margin. That's already been demonstrated by Andromeda, the footage already exists. So to assume that the HVX's even-better Leica Dicomar won't be up to the task seems presumptuous at best. Let's look at footage before you say the footage won't hold up!

I mean, I was one of the biggest arguers about lenses being the limiting factor for small HD cameras; it simply did not mathematically add up that we'd be getting decent-performing lenses on these small cameras. But you know what? The lens on a $925 Canon HV20 delivers a high-def image. There's no way it should, but it does. It doesn't matter that we don't understand how, all that really matters is that it does it. I have no doubts that the HVX lens will be PLENTY adequate to the task. And sooner or later we'll have actual images and photographic evidence that will answer the question definitively, so why stress about it? It either will or it won't, but if the last couple of years have taught us anything it's that "theory" gets its *** kicked by "reality" every single day.

yep!

agree 100%.

The image signal path is often the "choke point". It is often the weakest element.