RED Digital Cinema anounces small camera

[AuditoryVisuals]

http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/?p=36

Scarce for details. Still knew announcement. But this is my guess:

2K RAW at 60fps max. 2K RGB to 30fps. REDCODE at any resolution and framerate. 35mm sized sensor? It'd offer higher dynamic range and sensitivity than the RED ONE at that resolution so probably not. Unless, since it's RED, they don't care about it hurting sales. Also the RED ONE is capable of 4K.

Fixed lens? Interchangeable? I'm in the dark here but if I were forced to guess I'd say fixed lens with optional adapter for Cooke RED lenses and other lenses.

Smaller, built in EVF, what you'd expect from a prosumer camera.

$5,000-$7,000 perhaps?

What do you think?

EDIT:Barry just reminded me on page 4, RED also announced a 4K monitor and 4K projector. It's in the Studio Daily link too.

[Zack Vohaska]

Great find!

If it could shoot 1080p footage with a mysterium-like sensor (allowing for shallow depth of field if desired), RED has my money. :)

[jmc]

what you'd expect from a prosumer camera.The quote I saw said it was a professional cam, not a prosumer cam. "No plastic" supposedly. It seems odd, though. I can't see them having developed a smaller chip, but putting a mysterium sensor in there would make it 4k, right? They don't seem to be the type to take someone else's sensor and put it in their cam, so I don't know what they're planning.

How's this for a wild guess: They must have some sensors that come off the line defective in some way. If a number of those have dead pixels, I can see them putting one of those sensors in (capturing at 4k), then downres in camera to average out the dead pixels and passing a 2k or lower res on to the record mechanism. Sound plausible?

[shaocaholica]

How's this for a wild guess: They must have some sensors that come off the line defective in some way. If a number of those have dead pixels, I can see them putting one of those sensors in (capturing at 4k), then downres in camera to average out the dead pixels and passing a 2k or lower res on to the record mechanism. Sound plausible?
Would work but unlikely. First of all, they probably won't have 2k on their "Pocket" Camera. If they did want to re-use defective sensors, it would be more likely to crop out dead pixels and have a 100% clean image with a fixed lens matched to the cropped area. But all of this is unlikely as the production of the Pocket cam would be reliant on the percentage of faulty full size sensors. Its probably cheaper to make smaller sensors with a higher yeild cheaper per unit cost and predicable production flow.

[cardmaverick]

I guess they might, but I'd bet they wont. They have too good a reputation to ship out small cams with flawed sensors. Just my 2 cents.

[jonahlee]

Yea, I woulld think this would be a 1080P tops version of the RED offered for less money. I can't afford a RED, but this might be a possibility in the future.

[AuditoryVisuals]

I can't see them limiting the camera in any way. Even if it's a defective sensor. It's just not RED. That's why my guess is a new sensor native at 2K and 16mm sized. Not 35mm sized because it'll have possibly better 2K than the RED ONE.

http://studiodaily.com/main/news/7981.html Looks like we will find out more in the coming weeks.

P.S been a long time since I discussed RED at DVXuser :) Brings back memories of last year.

[shaocaholica]

I doubt that it will be 2k. Although the Red One can handle 4k, I think most users will be shooting 2K and below with it so a cheaper version of it will likely not be able to shoot 2k. Hell, it would be a much bigger disruption in the whole market than internal Red products competing. Can you imagine what a "cheaper" Red One Compact capable of 2k 4:4:4 would do to the bigger market :)

[AuditoryVisuals]

They would dominate. Much like the RED ONE in 4K 4:4:4. Why would they just shoot 2K and lower? 4K and downrez in REDCINE is the way to do it. But I see what you mean. But it won't hurt if it's just 2048x1080 instead of 1920x1080. Just a few hundred thousand more pixels never hurt.

Speaking of colour space, my guess is 4:4:4 2K.

[jonahlee]

Personally I think a 1080p RED with variable framrates could dominate.

[FatDaddy]

I'm sold. The way RED has proven itself this year - where do I send my money?

[Nik Manning]

RED why must you torment me with your incredible products and simplistic workflow! This is Madness!
I had too. :)

[Digigenic]

I can't see them limiting the camera in any way ... That's why my guess is a new sensor native at 2K and 16mm sized. Not 35mm sized because it'll have possibly better 2K than the RED ONE.
I agree with you 100%.
The same way RED siezed the moment and implemented 4K in the pro market that was barely pushing 2K, they'll sieze the moment yet again by implementing 2K in the prosumer market that's barely pushing HD.
I'm still not sure if they'd equip it with a fixed lens.
It seems to me that they'd leave this one open for adaptability as well.
We'll see soon enough.

[Grug]

RED why must you torment me with your incredible products and simplistic workflow! This is Madness!
I had too. :)

Madness?..... THIS IS REEEDDDDD!!!!!!!!

[shm]

Has anybody seen any news of this at the NAB booth itself?

[AloysiusK]

"a Professional Pocket Camera – a miniature camera" is all it said.

I never saw anything about a prosumer camera, etc.

[snowleopard]

They still don't have Red One shipping! Actually they have nothing shipping. Red still hasn't shipped a single usable anything! Talk about hype! While everyone is wet in the pants over the broohaha, this new vaporcam probably won't be out until 2010!

(This ought to get some replies!)

:evil:

[ChuckS]

I don't get it. A lot of people seem to be jumping on a wagon that has no wheels. There seems to be more Buzz about Dalsa than Red. That could say more about the crowd I've been hanging around.

I have not seen this camera shoot a single pixel, let alone 4K's worth. The footage I have seen is what's been making the rounds and doesn't look that good.

I'm guessing that if this camera can (be) deliver that the mistake that's been made is creating demand for something they have not been able to deliver. I was equally critical of Panasonic when they screwed up the release of the HVX and showed up to NAB with a mock-up. Sure some will argue it worked out alright - but we don't know the real opportunity costs associated with such a blunder.

I think its a bad idea to be talking about a new camera when they haven't delivered a single "Red" camera. Though the bad marketing might not effect Red as much as it did Panasonic, I don't think Dalsa can deliver a 4K camera yet either.

[William_Robinette]

Your kidding right?

[ChuckS]

Why have you used one?

[William_Robinette]

Ever used a Ferrari Enzo? If not, they can't exist either right?

See, stupid argument.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=94344 Please tell us that PJ must be smoking something, 'cause he apparently has shot on Red, in all it's 4k glory. Oh yeah, and everyone at NAB that saw the result too.

[Kholi]

I think Bennis just backhanded someone in the face. Lmfao. Everyone wants to call it Vaporware, nobody wants to do their research and stay up on it.

That being said, when did POCKET CAM qualify as PROSUMER CAM you guys? I know, trust me: I would love to see a mini-RED that shoots 2k and has interchangable lenses.

In fact, I would love to have a red that shoots 1080p/60p (Variable framerates) and has interchangable mounts and lenses. But, doesn't sound like it's going to be more than an actual pocket camera. One that you take out and snap pictures with.

[ChuckS]

Actually I own a Ferrari -- see, stupid argument.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have one of these too and as soon as they work and begin shipping them, I will.

[Kholi]

They will begin shipping within the next six weeks. Orders 1 - 12. Tsk. There shouldn't be any arguement about it, sounds like someone just wants to remain a skeptic for the hell of it.

[snowleopard]

With those that ordered last not getting their cameras for another several months. So answer me this: If you buy a Red camera today, when will you actually be shooting it? I'm looking for an honest, accurate, no bs, no guess, no "hopefully", answer.

[Kholi]

Please do not assume that because you wouldn't shoot with it immediately, nobody else would. RED ONE is not intended for those whom can't afford to use it.

If Peter Jackson put it to use BEFORE it even hit shelves, wtf do you think other professional filmmakers are going to do? Seriously, sometimes people surprise me. I mean at one point even I asked "How will you edit it?"... then Apple slapped me in the face with official RED SUPPORT. There's nothing anyone can say about RED at this point until the footage sucks; which it's pretty apparent from those at NAB that this is far from the case. Call it a done deal.

How the HELL can you even begin to call this Vaporware with a company like Apple backing it on their official website.

Edit: sorry to sound so crass, but come on people. What's all the negativity surrounding the camera about now? It's here, it's for real, it's supported. And it's already been put to narrative use before it's officially shipped.

[jmc]

As soon as NAB is over those Red guys are just going to take all the preorder money and skip town! :grin:

[marko5000]

A pro pocket camera doesn't sound like something with Interchangeable lenses.
I like the idea of a little unit i can keep out of sight that shoots the kind of quality Red would put their name too.
Now if they can make a solid/waterproof/shockproof go anywhere device I'd buy one.
Red like to revolutionize and I think what's missing from the market is a pocket camera without the usual compromises of auto control or dodgy formats.

Something that you can take to Iraq and will take a bullet for you and keep on recording (n.b. I don't go to warzones but our local pub is pretty rowdy)

[Rowlander]

So at this point, we have absolutely no idea what it actually is.

Whatever it is, I´m already wondering about it´s price. :D

Red is 17.500 just for the body.
Pocket-Camera: 15.000 for the complete package? They said, it´s "not prosumer", so ...
At this point, they probably don´t know themselves.

The tension is killing me! ;-)

[snowleopard]

Peter Jackson and Apple, that's just super.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question. If I purchase a Red camera today, when will it ship to me? I think that's a very fair question to ask. Why doesn't anyone answer? Is it because they are ashamed to admit that its poor business practice to highly promote a product that's months away from delivery? Are they ashamed to admit they have been hyping their product for a year and a half, and took orders for it over a year ago, and still haven't delivered a single unit?

It isn't that I don't think the camera(s) will ever be built, I just think it's bogus to advertise and promote it without giving more firm commitment on when they'll ship. This type of hype has happened many times in the past, especially at NAB, but Red takes the cake. This camera and it's numbers have been spouted for about a year and a half now. They debuted their concept and took orders for Red at NAB 2006 for Christ's sakes! One full year ago! And now, we finally have what appers to be a couple of working units, but no firm answer to when exactly a unit purchased today will ship.

With their track record, my guess is that this new prosumer handycam will ship probably in 2009 or maybe 2010. Why don't they start advertising and taking orders for their 70mm sized chip 16k, 20 stop camera they might maybe someday build? After all, my guess is that several people would plunk down the money for it sight unseen.

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate, but all the same, I think I bring up valid points. I am not questioning their product, I'm criticizing their sales hype and business ethic, and more so, the people that drool over themselves about the product while ignoring this fly-by-night sales tactic.

[marko5000]

I think the problem with that argument snowleopard is that those first orders were made by early adopters/supporters that should have understood the in development nature of the product. Even people buying it now are still buying a product without a firm release date and so shouldn't be asking for a delivery date already.

I think the only valid complaint (Criticism?) is that once shipping begins there will be limited numbers available. Even then it's only an issue if RED don't make buyers aware of that. We are aware of the situation with RED orders because of these boards I don't know how aware another buyer will be regarding delays so I can't comment on that.

If you don't want to wait indefinitely then don't buy it. Quite simple really. Wait until it's out, proven and available in greater numbers.

For the record I have no interest in buying RED beyond some kind of technolust wet dream where I am a rich and talented film maker rather than a penniless IT drone with an interest in DV I am just engaging with the community.

[SPZ]

Now this is a lot more interesting than Red one. Why? Support equipment. If this is indeed a mini cam like the HVX, z1, xl h1, or other, then steadicams, Tripods, cranes, dollies, etc will be a lot more acessible. That indeed would be a revolution for independent filmmaking.

And Mini Red doesn't need interchangeable lens. Pack in one like the prosumers, and just include a flip option, or a mirror shooting option. The current 35mm adaptors are fantastic, and accessible.

This camera, if it uses a 35mm sensor, has 2k resolution with variable frame rates, would be the best camera ever. I would buy it in a heartbeat- I believe it would sell in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Every event videographer, independent filmmaker, or even big production houses would buy it has a b cam Red or an action shot cam.

This is very good business model. A breaktrough indeed. Go for it, Team RED!!

[ddh]

Now this is a lot more interesting than Red one. Why? Support equipment. If this is indeed a mini cam like the HVX, z1, xl h1, or other, then steadicams, Tripods, cranes, dollies, etc will be a lot more acessible. That indeed would be a revolution for independent filmmaking.

And Mini Red doesn't need interchangeable lens. Pack in one like the prosumers, and just include a flip option, or a mirror shooting option. The current 35mm adaptors are fantastic, and accessible.

This camera, if it uses a 35mm sensor, has 2k resolution with variable frame rates, would be the best camera ever. I would buy it in a heartbeat- I believe it would sell in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Every event videographer, independent filmmaker, or even big production houses would buy it has a b cam Red or an action shot cam.

This is very good business model. A breaktrough indeed. Go for it, Team RED!!
I have to agree here about a small Red camera! 2k with say a fixed 20X lens! I'd buy that without blinking!

[Barry_Green]

Anyone thinking the Red One is vaporware is simply not up to date. They have a theater in NAB showing an entire 12-minute short film shot by Peter Jackson on the Red prototypes. It works, it's producing footage, and it's absolutely 35mm-caliber.

Getting amped about a Red pocketcam is obviously a tad premature when the only thing we know about it is "Red's gonna make a pocketcam." But considering the Red One does absolutely everything they promised that it would, and deliveries are beginning in a few weeks, and all reservation holders are being told they'll have theirs by around October, charges of "vaporware" would be highly inappropriate and inaccurate.

Red also announced that they're going to make their own 4K monitor, and their own 4K projector. So the Red line will consist of at least four products: full-size Red One, mini-cam (Red Two?), 4K monitor and 4K projector. And thousands of people are watching that 12-minute movie this week, so there will be plenty of opinions about it floating around on the web.

[esperman]

Enough speculation already.
Jarred is our inside man. When he spews the facts (whatever they may be)
I'll listen.
Until then...eveyone chill.

[Christopher Barry]

timeline info (http://www.red.com/news/view/79)

[David Saraceno]

I don't think anyone is saying the Red is vaporware.

What they are saying is Red isn't shipping, and no body is currently using Red.

So to get excited about a new smaller camera when the original cam is not yet available is a little premature.

I've seen the "girls drinking milk" sample. Nice, but it is in photo/motion jpeg format.

Show me some footage shot natively by the Red camera, and a definite ship date, then I might get somewhat excited about a second product.

[Kholi]

Man, 4k Monitor. I'm just imagining how much that thing will cost in relation to other monitors being that they seem to stick to a "reasonable price" mantra.

[shaocaholica]

Now this is a lot more interesting than Red one. Why? Support equipment. If this is indeed a mini cam like the HVX, z1, xl h1...
The Red One is already the size of the HVX, z1, xl h1...Why would you think the Mini Red would be the same size especially if its called a "Pocket" camera?

[smelni]

I can vouch for the red one footage at NAB - it is absolutely stunningly hyper real. Truly amazing and clean.

the cameras used to shoot it were prototypes with only a record button. They chot it in 2 days and edited in 2 weeks and it was stunning. Lots of types of footage in it.

of course its an expensive camera (at least 30K with everything you need) but it looks beautiful

[AuditoryVisuals]

So to get excited about a new smaller camera when the original cam is not yet available is a little premature.

A lot of people (myself included) are exited about the RED ONE. So why not get exited about another RED camera?

[OldCorpse]

Peter Jackson and Apple, that's just super.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question. If I purchase a Red camera today, when will it ship to me? I think that's a very fair question to ask. Why doesn't anyone answer? Is it because they are ashamed to admit that its poor business practice to highly promote a product that's months away from delivery? Are they ashamed to admit they have been hyping their product for a year and a half, and took orders for it over a year ago, and still haven't delivered a single unit?

It isn't that I don't think the camera(s) will ever be built, I just think it's bogus to advertise and promote it without giving more firm commitment on when they'll ship. This type of hype has happened many times in the past, especially at NAB, but Red takes the cake. This camera and it's numbers have been spouted for about a year and a half now. They debuted their concept and took orders for Red at NAB 2006 for Christ's sakes! One full year ago! And now, we finally have what appers to be a couple of working units, but no firm answer to when exactly a unit purchased today will ship.

With their track record, my guess is that this new prosumer handycam will ship probably in 2009 or maybe 2010. Why don't they start advertising and taking orders for their 70mm sized chip 16k, 20 stop camera they might maybe someday build? After all, my guess is that several people would plunk down the money for it sight unseen.

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate, but all the same, I think I bring up valid points. I am not questioning their product, I'm criticizing their sales hype and business ethic, and more so, the people that drool over themselves about the product while ignoring this fly-by-night sales tactic.

Well, as arguments go, that's pretty stupid. Ferrari has been around for well over half a century and somehow their business model works, and I haven't heard anyone call them and their marketing/promotion methods "bogus". You do know, don't you, that there's a 2 year waiting list on any new Ferrari you might want to order? How has that hurt Ferrari? Last I heard they were extremely profitable. So, if you place an order for a Ferrari, you'll wait 2 years - somewhat longer than if you placed the very first order for a RED camera back at Nab 2006. So what's your problem with saying it's a "bogus" marketing method? And you know, if you really want a Red camera immediately, you can get it exactly the same way you can get a Ferrari immediately - by paying way more than list for it. There's always a price at which the first Red owners will be willing to part with their just received camera... you can test that in a few weeks. Answers your question. Same as Ferrari - or any number of consumer and professional products... if you can't think of any, we can make a list for you. None of them "bogus". Anything else?

[AloysiusK]

I guess everybody has different reasons for reading about NAB 07. I know I check threads and updates to see what hardware/software is being displayed and what will be available very soon.

The only thing that was said about a new Red camera was a "A new Professional Pocket Camera". Just a little inside info from a Red person to a blogger at Studio Daily. No prototype or details, etc.

There seem to be two camps regarding the reaction to this. Those that like to speculate with their imagination, and those that just want to see what will be available in reality, so they can break down specs, get excited, and debate.

I personally get bored with conjecture.

[SomewhereinLA]

Well, as arguments go, that's pretty stupid. Ferrari has been around for well over half a century and somehow their business model works, and I haven't heard anyone call them and their marketing/promotion methods "bogus". You do know, don't you, that there's a 2 year waiting list on any new Ferrari you might want to order? How has that hurt Ferrari? Last I heard they were extremely profitable. So, if you place an order for a Ferrari, you'll wait 2 years - somewhat longer than if you placed the very first order for a RED camera back at Nab 2006. So what's your problem with saying it's a "bogus" marketing method? And you know, if you really want a Red camera immediately, you can get it exactly the same way you can get a Ferrari immediately - by paying way more than list for it. There's always a price at which the first Red owners will be willing to part with their just received camera... you can test that in a few weeks. Answers your question. Same as Ferrari - or any number of consumer and professional products... if you can't think of any, we can make a list for you. None of them "bogus". Anything else?

You must be joking, Ferrari has never made a profit, Fiat keep putting money into it... Which is ok, the point is prestige not profit. Same with Aston Martin. On the other hand, people should stop comparing cars and video cameras...LOL.

The fact is after 3 NAB's, RED is still not shipping a camera. They have said they'll be shipping next month every other month... It will be interesting to see what happens...

[tverhaar]

Well, as arguments go, that's pretty stupid. Ferrari has been around for well over half a century and somehow their business model works, and I haven't heard anyone call them and their marketing/promotion methods "bogus". You do know, don't you, that there's a 2 year waiting list on any new Ferrari you might want to order? How has that hurt Ferrari? Last I heard they were extremely profitable. So, if you place an order for a Ferrari, you'll wait 2 years - somewhat longer than if you placed the very first order for a RED camera back at Nab 2006. So what's your problem with saying it's a "bogus" marketing method? And you know, if you really want a Red camera immediately, you can get it exactly the same way you can get a Ferrari immediately - by paying way more than list for it. There's always a price at which the first Red owners will be willing to part with their just received camera... you can test that in a few weeks. Answers your question. Same as Ferrari - or any number of consumer and professional products... if you can't think of any, we can make a list for you. None of them "bogus". Anything else?


I REALLY don't have a stake in this "RED thing" either way but I can't help but point out that the Ferrari analogy is a little weak. After all, Ferrari has been delivering a product for decades and their backlog has a lot more to do with the fact that they have delivered up to their customers expectations (and beyond) for most of this time., rather than any trumped up "hype" as a marketing method. I am sure the RED guys are talented and respectable and I, for one, don't have a problem with their approach. (Note: I never even heard of RED until a few weeks ago and I doubt I'll ever own one of their cameras - but they sure seem cool!)

Anyway, if you are going to defend them, it would seem to me to be more effective just to do so on the merits of their product and their people - or at least a more aligned analogy.:smile:

[OldCorpse]

Fiat bought Ferrari, but Ferrari was profitable anyway. The reason Fiat bought is for prestige, but they're not losing money on it.

And if we're not supposed to compare cars and cameras, then we can compare cameras and something else. Point is, it's not a rap against Red that they have taken pre-orders. Many, many, many businesses take pre-orders and are successful, and are not vaporware. Taking pre-orders is not in and of itself a bad business model or "bogus" marketing - that was my only point. Plenty of businesses do that.

[Nik Manning]

Peter Jackson and Apple, that's just super.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question. If I purchase a Red camera today, when will it ship to me? I think that's a very fair question to ask. Why doesn't anyone answer? Is it because they are ashamed to admit that its poor business practice to highly promote a product that's months away from delivery? Are they ashamed to admit they have been hyping their product for a year and a half, and took orders for it over a year ago, and still haven't delivered a single unit?

It isn't that I don't think the camera(s) will ever be built, I just think it's bogus to advertise and promote it without giving more firm commitment on when they'll ship. This type of hype has happened many times in the past, especially at NAB, but Red takes the cake. This camera and it's numbers have been spouted for about a year and a half now. They debuted their concept and took orders for Red at NAB 2006 for Christ's sakes! One full year ago! And now, we finally have what appers to be a couple of working units, but no firm answer to when exactly a unit purchased today will ship.

With their track record, my guess is that this new prosumer handycam will ship probably in 2009 or maybe 2010. Why don't they start advertising and taking orders for their 70mm sized chip 16k, 20 stop camera they might maybe someday build? After all, my guess is that several people would plunk down the money for it sight unseen.

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate, but all the same, I think I bring up valid points. I am not questioning their product, I'm criticizing their sales hype and business ethic, and more so, the people that drool over themselves about the product while ignoring this fly-by-night sales tactic.

Okay if you order a RED camera today you can expect it in January. http://www.red.com/news/view/79

This is cutting edge technology the first 1,000 customers are in the bleeding edge stage. The problem is RED has a great product for a great price and supply is having a hard time matching demand. It happens. I think that there business model has worked incredibly well for them. They got over 1000 people to put $1,000 on a cam that they never seen. If it works it is a good business model buddy.

[OldCorpse]

I REALLY don't have a stake in this "RED thing" either way but I can't help but point out that the Ferrari analogy is a little weak. After all, Ferrari has been delivering a product for decades and their backlog has a lot more to do with the fact that they have delivered up to their customers expectations (and beyond) for most of this time., rather than any trumped up "hype" as a marketing method. I am sure the RED guys are talented and respectable and I, for one, don't have a problem with their approach. (Note: I never even heard of RED until a few weeks ago and I doubt I'll ever own one of their cameras - but they sure seem cool!)

Anyway, if you are going to defend them, it would seem to me to be more effective just to do so on the merits of their product and their people - or at least a more aligned analogy.:smile:

No analogy is ever perfect - it's an analogy not a perfect copy. However, the point I debunked was that you can't say that just the fact that they take pre-orders is in and of itself "bogus". I gave the example of Ferrari - perfectly valid. Now, you move the goal posts to say "take pre-orders and be a successful business". Note, you just modified the statement. Well, Red is put out by a company that is successful in business! Oh, ok, time to move the goal posts again: "take pre-orders and is a successful business, and a business in the exact same area". And so on. Look, the point is simple: the argument was that just the fact of taking pre-orders by itself is a "bogus" method - I say it is not, and I give examples - at which point you modify the statement, so I'll have to modify (in response) the example. None of this matters, because the statement that it's bogus based solely on pre-orders is bogus itself.

[Erik Olson]

I'm not a cheerleader for RED, but I don't see your points on how they've rolled the camera and accessories out?

Unlike every other mfg., they polled us as users to discover the feature-set we needed for digital cinema and other disciplines. That process started not too long ago - certainly not three NAB events ago.

We've been able to have open discussions with Jim and his incredible team - I've never been invited to converse with Sony. Jan and Panasonic see the value in conversing with their core market, and it's paid off in spades with the first generation HVX.

RED has been 100% plus transparent in their R&D and introduction of the ONE and the accessories for same. They've always stated that "subject to change" was the universal caveat for specifications, dates of release and everything between.

So, what's the problem? If you order a RED today, you'll receive it by January 2008. The people taking delivery of their cameras in the weeks to come know that they'll have limited functionality as their beta units will be released under the eventual full specification benchmark.

Conversely, Jim and RED could withhold the lumps until everything is right - according to their map, sometime in August or September. If I were in the first batch, I'd take the beta camera and do what I could with it.

Be thankful that Jannard has done the impossible. If you don't like it, there are plenty of offerings from the competition and they'd be happy to take your money as well.

e

[Kholi]

Sooner or later I'm gonna learn to just shake my head.

I just can't believe the negativity surrounding such a magnificent company, team, effort, and product; it's unbelievable.

[OldCorpse]

I just can't believe the negativity surrounding such a magnificent company, team, effort, and product; it's unbelievable.

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” Gandhi.

Which stage are we at? Fight?

[tverhaar]

No analogy is ever perfect - it's an analogy not a perfect copy. However, the point I debunked was that you can't say that just the fact that they take pre-orders is in and of itself "bogus". I gave the example of Ferrari - perfectly valid. Now, you move the goal posts to say "take pre-orders and be a successful business". Note, you just modified the statement. Well, Red is put out by a company that is successful in business! Oh, ok, time to move the goal posts again: "take pre-orders and is a successful business, and a business in the exact same area". And so on. Look, the point is simple: the argument was that just the fact of taking pre-orders by itself is a "bogus" method - I say it is not, and I give examples - at which point you modify the statement, so I'll have to modify (in response) the example. None of this matters, because the statement that it's bogus based solely on pre-orders is bogus itself.

OC - Whoa Guy. You are on a rant. You quoted me but went on to mix all sorts of points into your discussion that had NOTHING to do with what I said. It wasn't me who said anything about business models or success or most of anything else that you mentioned. I didn't set or move your goal posts... or your cheese, for that matter. Beyond that, I'll be honest with you - you COMPLETELY lost me on what the hell it is you are against - or in favor of - or not against... or not in favor of.. or...??:undecided

I definitely think you should make your point by NOT buying one of their camers!... or , er, buying one of their cameras?! Whatever. Just note that I don't have a problem with them - just with a weak analogy.

[SPZ]

The Red camera with lens, LCD, viewfinder, battery and recordable media (Hdd's) is heavier than an HVX or a XL, or am I wrong?

[arrestthisman]

hmmmm.... I may use one of the red cameras one of these days(years?), and I don't think there's anything wrong with the excitement going with it, but I have to agree. nothing's shipping yet.

It's fun to speculate and such, I don't think we'll be dissapointed when it arrives, but I've been on the boards glued to my computer with all of the announcements.

I need to get back to work. hehe

When they finally arrive it will affect me, but I wouldn't base my future workflow on something that isn't in my hand yet.

just my opinion...and I'm never right about anything, so don't listen to me.

[Ivanhurba]

Well... I think it would be one of those Helmet cams (http://www.helmetcamera.com/) running around but with the RED magic all over it. It would work: Every sports man and woman would like to have one (price wise) in their helmets, bikes, and shows like the Nascar and F1 would be interested in filling their cars with tiny shiny REDs that spits 2k wavelet without a sweat. Even security or webcams (although a little overkill, but who cares?) would be in their interest.

Market? Everything, everywhere...

[snowleopard]

Thanks Nik Manning for answering my question straight up. That link you sent should be Red's home page. It will take roughly 9 months from now to deliver; I'll pass and see what else shows up between now and then from rival companies. If Red is ramped up at that time, and the product holds true, I'll consider their product. Until then, I'll wait and see.

Old Corpose - I have no idea why you quoted me, I made zero reference to Ferarri in my post.

My main complaint about Red isn't their people making the gear, or the gear's potential itself, it's their methods of advertising which are not forthright and honest in my eyes. I find it to be bad business practice to advertise and sell their camera the way they have.

My much bigger complaint is that people just swallow it up about how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or even actually seeing it. And more importantly, completely ignoring the advertising practices I noted in my previous paragraph, and treating them as acceptable.

I'm out.

[Noel Evans]

Red will come I dont think theres any reason to doubt it. And to be honest if there actually was I think you would find Jarred telling us what he knew.

One thing I did notice though was this:

July - Serial #101-300. (Partially enabled feature set)

What's a partially enabled feature set?

[Erik Olson]

I think they somewhat break down what will be missing now.

"April - May - Serial #1-12
June - Serial #13-100. (Partially enabled feature set)
July - Serial #101-300. (Partially enabled feature set)
August - Serial #301-550 (90% enabled feature set)
September - Serial #551-1000 (98% enabled feature set)
October - Serial #1001-1700 (Fully enabled feature set)
November - Serial #1701- 2500
December - Serial #2501- 3500

All cameras will ship with the capability to record 4k REDCODE RAW to RED DRIVE, view on the RED EVF or LCD, and have shutter options from day one. Record RGB options will be one of the last options to be enabled."

[Nik Manning]

Okay maybe we should look at it like this. RED is shipping a camera in January 2008 that shoots 4k and is supported by final cut pro for around 30k with lens. You can go to their website now and put down 10% to order. RED is no longer taking reservations. The first 1000 folks that reserved a RED camera were on the Bleeding edge of the red revolution.

[js33]

Thanks Nik Manning for answering my question straight up. That link you sent should be Red's home page. It will take roughly 9 months from now to deliver; I'll pass and see what else shows up between now and then from rival companies. If Red is ramped up at that time, and the product holds true, I'll consider their product. Until then, I'll wait and see.

My main complaint about Red isn't their people making the gear, or the gear's potential itself, it's their methods of advertising which are not forthright and honest in my eyes. I find it to be bad business practice to advertise and sell their camera the way they have.

My much bigger complaint is that people just swallow it up about how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or even actually seeing it. And more importantly, completely ignoring the advertising practices I noted in my previous paragraph, and treating them as acceptable.

I'm out.

Well you have to see if there is a good market for a product before a company can commit to investing large sums of money to bring it to market. No one was forcing people to preorder.

If you have been following other company's product lines for the last several years, SONY, Panasonic, Canon you would realize those companies will NOT have anything to compete with RED in the same price range, Now or ever, well until their bottom lines bottom out that is.

After years of the existing video companies stringing people along with very incremental updates people were ready for something new and revolutionary and RED is that company.

[AloysiusK]

Snowleopard, I totally agree with your comment about "how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or actually seeing it."

Reminds me of Naomi Klein's book, "No Logo".

It's not about if their product is good/bad, nor if it the speculation is true or false. Just tired of hearing the same old company lines being spouted by people who have never used it. I've noticed that the term revolution seems to enter into many posts whenever the word Red is mentioned. There marketing campaign is very smart.

[js33]

Well JVC is still making 720p cameras so that should tell you the established companies are moving pretty slow compared to RED.

[OldCorpse]

I have not pre-ordered a RED, and doubt I'll ever buy one personally. However, the attacks here on RED's company is quite bizarre. The beef seems to be that they've been "talking for a long time without delivering the actual product", as if that by itself was somehow "bogus". The reasons seem to me extremely obvious: they took the approach that they'll create a camera based on extensive feedback from the potential users. Designing a camera - especially if the design is at all ambitious - takes quite a bit of time. So, if it takes, say, 3 years, what should they do? Keep quiet for 2 years and 11 months and only announce it 1 month before the product rolls out into the public? What they decided to do is to communicate with their potential users from very early on - and therefore it's natural that they'd be "talking for a long time without delivering the actual product"... that's how long it takes to deliver a camera from conception to execution! It's what every company does - the only difference being that RED has chosen to interact with users the entire time, while other companies perhaps do so only during the last stretch of the design process. Why is that a crime?

Strikes me that it's broadly in the interest of users to have the company interact with them extensively and at every stage, no? So why all the sniping? Unless you think that the product does not exist and RED intends to abscond with the money. However, they have actual working models (which could be seen and touched at NAB, and have been used by prominent DPs and directors), so it's not likely that the product doesn't exist. And the likelyhood of RED absconding with the funds is pretty low - they have a whole company behind them, why would they do this for chump change?

Critisizing a company is fine, but how about sensible criticizm, if you have one? Saying that they take pre-orders and that's just sleazy and wrong and immoral (?) marketing and unethical and whatever other bizarre accusations along these lines, well, that just doesn't make any sense. IMHO, of course.

OldCorpse: Not a likely RED user.©

[tverhaar]

IMHO - I think RED has exhibited marketing genious perhaps second only to Apple. They have lots and lots of people talking, many of whom are potential users or who might influence potential users. You can't beat that.

TVH

[SomewhereinLA]

Snowleopard, I totally agree with your comment about "how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or actually seeing it."

Reminds me of Naomi Klein's book, "No Logo".

It's not about if their product is good/bad, nor if it the speculation is true or false. Just tired of hearing the same old company lines being spouted by people who have never used it. I've noticed that the term revolution seems to enter into many posts whenever the word Red is mentioned. There marketing campaign is very smart.


Thank you, at last a word of wisdom...

[themagickite]

very true

but not only that, by RED choosing to "interact with users" and coming out with a camera that more accuratley reflects what the users want, the big companies will have to take notice (when they start loosing customers) to create similar products at competetive price points.

so the red will not only benefit red users, but future panasonic, sony, canon and jvc users as well!

[SomewhereinLA]

Well JVC is still making 720p cameras so that should tell you the established companies are moving pretty slow compared to RED.

Maybe, but JVC has cameras you can actually use and buy today... Red is actually not moving at all.

[mcgeedigital]

Maybe, but JVC has cameras you can actually use and buy today... Red is actually not moving at all.

That 4k footage I saw of Peter Jackson's must've been a dream I guess.

[AloysiusK]

"However, the attacks here on RED's company is quite bizarre."

I think one of the main reason this is happening is balance. The main reason I find this marketing strategy to be so disturbing is there is no way to put to test claims RED is making until it is fully available to the consumer market. "The product has this and that", and it will wow you. You cannot really critique it, because you cannot use it yet.
This is where I think alot of the negative reactions come from, it is just the natural order balancing the mythical, bulletproof buzz(that has been building for years!).

"Critisizing a company is fine, but how about sensible criticizm, if you have one?"

How can you criticize something that you cannot test across a broad range of users?
No possibilities to do so. (In the meantime, that bulletproof buzz is growing and growing.)

"What they decided to do is to communicate with their potential users from very early on - and therefore it's natural that they'd be "talking for a long time without delivering the actual product"... that's how long it takes to deliver a camera from conception to execution!"

If you think that these intentions are purely for the benefit and goodwill of Joe Blow cameraman and have nothing to do with marketing, I don't know what to tell you. They are intertwined. One doesn't exist without the other. Joe Blow cameraman isn't being let into the top secret red studios to be a part of this creative process, because they are protecting the sanctity and exclusiveness of their commercial product.

Jim Jannard didn't make Oakley sunglasses the most buzzworthy name in sunglasses by accident. He knows how to get people excited about his product and he knows how to turn the consumer into his personal salesman.

[Blaine]

This thread is worthy of Cinematography.com

[Kholi]

Wow I can't believe you guys are still moaning about this. Theres are gonna be the same people that are going to try to get their hands on one to shoot their next feature.

I just... don't... get it.

[AloysiusK]

#234:

What? Is it so hard to believe they have a business strategy? I think it is effing brilliant.

Nobody is saying that there product doesn't have the possibility to be absolutely wonderful. Hell, it seems like you would be blessed to have one if it fell into your lap. I would probably freak out and have an anxiety attack over my excitement. (Shoot, there I go again!)

I guess it comes down to all those people screaming about how the revolution has begun. The sheer mass is hard to avoid. I cannot remember the lasst time a product came out that people would defend and exault till the cows come home years before it came out...talking to eachother on the internet all the time(sometimes everyday) about how exciting it is. Getting in a line, if you are lucky enough to have enough money, and waiting for the product. Then others telling others how they wish they we're in line too!

Sometimes consumer hysteria can leave a bad taste in your mouth, ya know?

Besides, if they would have introduced the product when it was actually ready to be sold then you wouldn't have to deal with hypocrites like me who are as addicted to consuming as much as the next person. I never said I was better, just irritated. And your right Kholi, I wish I could get my hands on one. But it ain't the point. The point is that some people get upset when consumer hysteria reveals itself with rabid dedication. Others don't mind so much. I, for whatever reason, mind.

[Blaine]

#234:

What? Is it so hard to believe they have a business strategy? I think it is effing brilliant.

Nobody is saying that there product doesn't have the possibility to be absolutely wonderful. Hell, it seems like you would be blessed to have one if it fell into your lap. I would probably freak out and have an anxiety attack over my excitement. (Shoot, there I go again!)

I guess it comes down to all those people screaming about how the revolution has begun. The sheer mass is hard to avoid. I cannot remember the lasst time a product came out that people would defend and exault till the cows come home years before it came out...talking to eachother on the internet all the time(sometimes everyday) about how exciting it is. Getting in a line, if you are lucky enough to have enough money, and waiting for the product. Then others telling others how they wish they we're in line too!

Sometimes consumer hysteria can leave a bad taste in your mouth, ya know?

Besides, if they would have introduced the product when it was actually ready to be sold then you wouldn't have to deal with hypocrites like me who are as addicted to consuming as much as the next person. I never said I was better, just irritated. And your right Kholi, I wish I could get my hands on one. But it ain't the point. The point is that some people get upset when consumer hysteria reveals itself with rabid dedication. Others don't mind so much. I, for whatever reason, mind.
I have to admit that I was won over early. But I've had the opportunity to see the results. I saw their 4K presentation in L.A. and now seen the short Peter Jackson created using prototype cameras. I could really give a shit what others think. I'm so happy to know I'm going to have one of these in my hands sometime in July that I can't f*cking believe it. Hopefully, it will arrive in time for my next project. (If not, I guess I'll be stuck shooting in film.)

[AloysiusK]

"I could really give a shi* what others think."

I would feel the exact same way if I we're in your shoes. Cheers!

[Barry_Green]

I don't get what this whole thread is about... RED said they were going to do something -- build a 4K camera that does digital cinematography the way it should be done, and deliver it at a really low price point.

That's what they did.

Why is there still an argument?

This happens with every new announcement -- there was a similar firestorm surrounding the DVX, and around the HVX, and the Red One. Yet every product came out and did exactly what they said it would.

Why not wait until some details (ANY details?) are announced before getting all worked up about the Red Mini? The only detail they announced at all, which I really had to push for, was in the form of "hey, we're making it, okay? So you pretty much know what to expect."

Red did what they said they'd do, when they said they'd do it, at the cost point they said it'd cost, and it looks exactly like they said it would. I really don't get what all the negative fuss is about.

[jonahlee]

I was leaning towards believing in the RED for sometime now, but after seeing that footage of Peter Jackson's at NAB I have to say I am a true believer. Seeing not only the RAW, but also the color corrected footage I must say that this is the first digitaly aquired footage I have ever seen that looks just like film. In fact I could say it looks better than film because there was no grain. This footage was absolutely fantastic. After seeing the footage my head was literally reeling for a while, and my brain kept repeating "Film is dead, Long Live RED!" over and over.

[ChuckS]

I don't get what this whole thread is about... RED said they were going to do something -- build a 4K camera that does digital cinematography the way it should be done, and deliver it at a really low price point.

That's what they did.

Why is there still an argument?

This happens with every new announcement -- there was a similar firestorm surrounding the DVX, and around the HVX, and the Red One. Yet every product came out and did exactly what they said it would.

Why not wait until some details (ANY details?) are announced before getting all worked up about the Red Mini? The only detail they announced at all, which I really had to push for, was in the form of "hey, we're making it, okay? So you pretty much know what to expect."

Red did what they said they'd do, when they said they'd do it, at the cost point they said it'd cost, and it looks exactly like they said it would. I really don't get what all the negative fuss is about.
Although the fuss is a bit all over the map some of it is justified.

Red has done everything you mentioned except one - they have not delivered. Which isn't to say that they can't or won't, but they haven't. So I'm guessing that much of the noise was skepticism about their ability to deliver a new camera when they haven't delivered on the promise of the first camera.

I believe this is more about managing expectations that development of the technology. Red was happy to seed forums like this with information to keep people spun up. That can really backfire if you show up to NAB with a block of wood and a lens the Way Panasonic did with the HVX. So its interesting that you compared the two.

Red mismanaged expectations the same way Panasonic did and there's no quantifying the opportunity costs associated with such bad marketing. There's little doubt they will sell all the cameras they have on order. Everyone associated with the development of this project will say what a great job they did, and they did. But what will speak volumes about how good a job everyone did will be how many productions this camera will be used on over the next year or so.

If they had demonstrated this small camera at NAB then maybe they should have talked about it. But they certainly didn't need to mention it to fill the booth. Whats the likelihood that they will ship this new camera before next NAB? If not, how great would it have been to show up with a new camera unannounced. Or if they didn't think they would get many people in the booth at next NAB announce it a couple of weeks before instead of talking about futures.

I guess its a difference in approach, I prefer a company who develops technology without the hype and delivers a great product. I didn't put a deposit on Red not because I didn't like the concept, I didn't believe the hype. Many at Red might say shame on me we proved you wrong. Good for Red, I'd like to see them successful. But the question is how many people who didn't want to spend money on the hype are there? You might be surprised. And like me I'm sure they'll wait to see how well Red delivers knowing full well that by next NAB there will probably be two more cameras very similar to this one.

As a company its hard to make a living just selling the the early adopters.

[OliverM]

Jim Jannard didn't make Oakley sunglasses the most buzzworthy name in sunglasses by accident. He knows how to get people excited about his product and he knows how to turn the consumer into his personal salesman.

If you know of any somewhat serious large company that can survive without serious marketing please tell me. They are remains of the ancient past.
Oakley was succesfull because they listened and ineracted with their users, make great products by adopting new technology and by making a whole lott of buzz and 'cool' around their products.
So?

A good product with a large fanbase. Sounds like a healthy base for company to me...

[jmc]

...knowing full well that by next NAB there will probably be two more cameras very similar to this one.That's something I've been wondering about. Is anyone going to respond (at a similar price)? Panasonic just introduced the HPX500 in that price range, but it's not even 2k, right?

It seems like the major brands are just now fully committing to 1080, and aren't even interested in 4k. And really, not that many jobs need 4k. A lot of broadcast is still 720 (or SD of course).

I don't keep up with the really high end stuff, so I'm actually curious. Will there be competition for Red at NAB'08?

[OliverM]

Sure there will be competition. I can't imagine no one working on somithing more or less simular. But when will they be ready?
And as you point out. For broadcast this is not going to be standard gear for years to come. But for moviestudios and production companies, this is a tool they dreamt about for quite a while.

But as I said, I expect competition. But wether that will be a prototype or a production unit, and with the same or more or less features...
Oh for crying out loud, NAB 07 ain't over yet.
I'm going back to work...
:)

[arrestthisman]

What's really interesting is that while Movies overall lose money to video games and alternative media, everybody's sweating over the next 4k camera.

The youtube generation is growing FAST. Far more people watch youtube than PBS, and that is sad, but a reality. Podcasting... Blueray and HD DVD being the flops that they are, I think more people watch high def on their computers than anyone. That and cable TV.

So when are we going so see a Flash 9 camcorder?


So Barry really was right when he said that only the big boys will really be affected by RED, even though it seems to be a revolution for independant filmmakers. But with Sundance a Joke, (independant film? try cheap hollywood marketing for their "Smaller" films), and theaters being built about as often as a new nuclear power plant... what is this really all for?

I'm asking rhetorically because I personally believe, RED, hydra, si2k etc. are all super super awesome, with HVX being the awesomest because I own one :) haha

I guess what I'm leading up to is, would it suck if NAB 09 or even 08 rolled around with improved 4k cameras, other cams exceeding film quality for a fraction of the cost, and no one's around to watch any movies but the uber-Hollywood crap.... you know, the one's with Will Farrell in them?

[Sproketz]

You can't blame the Red team for all the fanboys.

Jim Jannard just followed through with the question alot of people were asking.
"If Canon, Nikon, etc. can put out hi-res still cameras for $1000 or so, why do motion picture cameras have to cost $150,000?"

I personally dislike all the fanboy vs. "anybody who didn't drink the coolaid" attacks.
But I completely understand the enthusiasm the low budget filmmakers have for this. Those who were stuck shooting their indie/festival film on DV now can at least buy or reasonably rent Red and push the "image quality" hurdle off their plate.

Unfortunately Red won't help those with no talent anyways, but here's to persuing the dream...

[arrestthisman]

Unfortunately Red won't help those with no talent anyways, but here's to persuing the dream...

I think that should be "Fortunately."

:)

[Rob2]

Hi all,
everyone just talkes about the camerabody. What about lenses. Word I heard from the NAB floor is that Peter J's film was shot with super-duper glass and not Red lenses. Anyone have any news on Red lens quality. Also, what type of filters (4x5.65 glass filters) was used on that shoot, if any? Other accessories used on that film? Wireless focuspullers, mattebox and so on?
Could someone elaborate on how much a "Peter Jackson Red System" would cost?

Interesting times we live in :-)

/Rob

[evinsky]

Red lenses are professional cinematography lenses designed to take full advantage of our Mysterium sensor. They are ment to go blow for blow with the big boys.
E.

[Elton]

I believe they said PJ's film was shot with Cooke's and some other lens.

It was outrageously beautiful. Kudos to the Red Team for letting Peter Jackson play with your prototype cameras. So nice to see a short film and not just the typical test shots.

Evin--you did a great job demoing the Red workflow! Nice to see you again too.

[keep it moving Jay]

How could a camera that when put together will cost more than 35K be for low budget filmmakers?

the prove is in creactivity. If you're a collector that loves to buy cameras or a rental house, then i could see this happening. But if you're a "low budget" director why dish out 35K or more?

You could give person "X" an HVX and person y"" a RED ONE but the person that comes on top in terms of filmmaking is the the best filmmaker not the one that holds the greatest and latest gadget. I'm talking story.

Plus, I'm a little taken by those that keep on promoting REd like it was a low budget camera. the thing costs, again, more than 35K.
17,500 only gives you the body with the processor. It doesn't even record for crise sake.

I'm looking forward in RENTING one. For now I rent and use my sweet ol HVX, which has won me some gusto.

[dual]

Ey guys,

I keep hearing about Peter Jackson's extraordinary testshooting with the RED camera. I wonder where WE (non NAB attendants) can see this flick. I mean, if it was shown on NAB, it must be somewhere close. Any ideas, links, hints?

And for the general RED purpose discussion I simply want to add that 35k IS low budget. The rental price would even fit a no-budget project. And I think the reason why so many are excited is that so many believe they will soon get the dollar together to shoot the crazy way. Maybe many of them won't get there. But when you're shooting on the HVX, the RED isn't that far away anymore, and that's pretty exciting I'd say.

[Barry_Green]

How would you expect to see it? It's at 4K resolution, projected from a 4K projector. That's the only way Red would be interested in exhibiting it, I'm sure -- I can't imagine they'd want to see it floating around on YouTube or whatever.

[Spartacus]

Plus, I'm a little taken by those that keep on promoting REd like it was a low budget camera. the thing costs, again, more than 35K.

4K for 35000 is low budget considering all the alternative options yielding the same quality.
But Low Budget is a type of production, you can shoot 35mm and still be Low Budget, you can have Tom Cruise in your movie and still be Low Budget...
Point is, if the RED holds up to its promises, you get amazing quality at a very low price tag, call it Low Budget or best bang for the buck or whatever you like...

[fantasticfilm]

I really believe that you need to look at the whole thing in context of what we know.

Apple announced support for RED in FCP 2 - it looks like there has been alot of collaboration. I am of the opinion that the user base will be mostly on the Apple platform.

Therefore it may be that RED are "REDdy" to deliver their product but this "partnership" is a key aspect of the business model since if they ship the camera without a strong platform to edit/ingest their product - there wil be a negative backlash.

Therefore I suspect the delivery of RED ONE will be very close to the FCP 2 availability and this would make perfect sense.

It is quite possible that RED is busy finishing assembly on the first 1000 units as we speak/argue/fight/debate about it.

The real test for this product is once it is in the hands of owners - will it meet expectations or at least provide a viable creative platform for the target market or is this product way of the mark in terms of build quality & reliability.
e.g. :
- Is the quality control/ build quality going to be high ?

- Is after sales service and warranty claims viable on an international scale or even in Northern America.

- Are replacement parts readily available or priced reasonable?

Going by Oakley's reputation I would say the warranty will be well serviced but let's face it things break/fail and need repair. Sony and Panasonic have built industry following on this in broadcast and film markets. RED is still unproven on this front regardless of how nice the 4k image looks in a controlled environment shot on a controlled set with lots of very experienced technical people under Peter J.

I want to see what RED can do in the hands of a young indie filmaker who is shooting on a budget with no frills support by the seat of his pants.............let's just hold our breathe a bit longer 2007 is going to be an awesome ride!!!!

[keep it moving Jay]

4K for 35000 is low budget considering all the alternative options yielding the same quality.
But Low Budget is a type of production, you can shoot 35mm and still be Low Budget, you can have Tom Cruise in your movie and still be Low Budget...
Point is, if the RED holds up to its promises, you get amazing quality at a very low price tag, call it Low Budget or best bang for the buck or whatever you like...

Your response is out of context. yes, i could make a low budget film, unlikely, on 35mm BUT i'm not buying a 35mm camera. I'm not trying to antagonize just going for a reality check.

for 35K

why don't you rent a viper, hvx as a secondary
spend a few thousand on lights and location
few more for misc.

shoot a short. enter festivals. get noticed. make another great short. then if you're persistant as hell get noticed and make money to make a hig budget film. then with the cash buy whatever you want.

this is just my opinion. just saying renting the red and shooting to get noticed is the way to go. UNLESS you're so good as a filmmaker that whatever you touch turns to gold. then by all means pt down the cash immediately.

make some great shorts with your hvx. you'll be surprised have much notariety you'll receive if done right.

[snowleopard]

How would you expect to see it? It's at 4K resolution, projected from a 4K projector. That's the only way Red would be interested in exhibiting it, I'm sure -- I can't imagine they'd want to see it floating around on YouTube or whatever.

My guess is that most people, despite all of this chest thumping and hair splitting about tech stuff, want to see it because we like captivating footage that's shot well, and tells a story well. You know, good ol' fashioned good filmmaking. And experience says that Jackson can deliver that. That's why.

[arrestthisman]

Doesn't always work that way Jay.

Yours is a plan, but not the only one.

[AuditoryVisuals]

for 35K

why don't you rent a viper, hvx as a secondary
spend a few thousand on lights and location
few more for misc.

shoot a short. enter festivals. get noticed. make another great short. then if you're persistant as hell get noticed and make money to make a hig budget film. then with the cash buy whatever you want.

You could do that. And you could also just buy a RED and make a film with what you have.

But I think a lot of the people who are buying RED ONE's actually have more money than thirty five thousand. That's why they can afford lights (maybe they already have them) or a location.

It's the futureproofing of 4K, REDCODE RAW, Mysterium and so on.

[Barry_Green]

My guess is that most people, despite all of this chest thumping and hair splitting about tech stuff, want to see it because we like captivating footage that's shot well, and tells a story well. You know, good ol' fashioned good filmmaking. And experience says that Jackson can deliver that. That's why.
Well, that's not what it was made for, nor is it what Red would be interested in showing. Think about it -- if it's put on YouTube, how many people would say "phsaw -- I've seen stuff from my PD150 that looks better than that." So it's not gonna happen, voluntarily. It's a marketing tool. I'd wager that they'll gladly show it around the world at Red exhibitions and shows, but until there's a way to make for practical 4K distribution (or at least 1080p distribution) you're not gonna have a way to see it.

[Mark Smith]

I'm still having a good laugh looking at the pricing rationalizations... 35K for Red Kit... assuming you have something other than a DV tripod, a swing away mattebox, follow focus, batteries, chargers, cases, oh yeah some lenses too. A set of Red primes list for more than the camera last I checked.


Assuming you have that stuff, Maybe 35 K works, but what about after you factor in the the accessories that you need but can't transfer from your DV camera kit.

[whachusay]

"you can have Tom Cruise in your movie and still be Low Budget..."

Not sure if I would want Tom in my movie... LOL! Kidding. I couldn't resist.

[GaryinCalifornia]

"you can have Tom Cruise in your movie and still be Low Budget..."

Not sure if I would want Tom in my movie... LOL! Kidding. I couldn't resist.

I would take him... even if he isn't my favorite actor... if only 20% of his fans go to your film that might make it win at the box office... plus all the free press "TOM CRUISE DOES LOW BUDGET MOVIE."

On a funny note... a producer friend did send me a script that someone sent her... the writer had a cameo for Tom Cruise to play himself... the writer said it was no problem getting him because he was his cousin...

My producer friend and I read the script and both said even if this guy was Tom Cruise's cousin there is no way he'd to the film... because the script wasn't that good... it was still a rough draft...

The guy never called back my producer friend... after we asked him to show us the money... gee no pun there... even though that's a famous line from a Tom Cruise movie...

[Aculag]

if it's put on YouTube
I think it's funny that you jump from 4K to YouTube. The internet is a big place, I'm 100% sure there's someone able to upload a 1080 version to the internet somewhere.

Yeah, it would be awesome to see at 4K, but I certainly don't know anyone with a 4k projector. It'd be awesome to see even at DVD quality! It would be awesome to see for any reason really, because it's footage from RED by Peter Jackson. You're acting like the only way to watch it is 4k, but it'll be a while before that's commonly used, right?

[Barry_Green]

Again, missing the point. RED is going to want to control how its footage is seen. It's not about it being a Peter Jackson film. He specifically asked people to respect that and to not take video of the film and post it on YouTube.

Hey, they can do whatever they want with the footage, obviously, but I don't see them releasing it in any way. It was designed to show off what a masterful camera can do in the hands of a master. If they put it out on DVD or whatever, I can guarantee there will be a massive chorus of "so what -- I can do that on my XHA1" or whatever. I don't think Red would be interested in enabling that.

[js33]

I think the best thing would be for Apple to post the PJ short shot with Red in 1080p. That would not only give Red a lot of publicity it will also highlight the fact that RED footage like the PJ film can be edited with FCP2 so everybody wins.

[arrestthisman]

I thought this thread was about the small camera.... but...

at any rate, I think apple should release it as a FCP2 Project file with the footage included.

They did this with Garageband for Nine Inch Nail's new hit single. They released a garageband file with all of the originals for editing. So people got to re-edit the song and see what the software was really capable.

The best thing it did was show that it wasn't the "Special features" that made the song, it was the choices you make within your set of tools that makes something work or not.

If we saw that I think it would be a massive hit for apple, that is if Peter Jackson doesn't mind people re-editing his work. (trent reznor is a control freak, though and he let them do it because he loves apple enough and wants to encourage others to make music... and also promote his new album... ahem.)

I'd digg it

[Aculag]

Again, missing the point. RED is going to want to control how its footage is seen. It's not about it being a Peter Jackson film. He specifically asked people to respect that and to not take video of the film and post it on YouTube.
I understand what you're talking about, but again, you seem to be thinking along a pretty thin margin, and narrowing it down to YouTube, and the crap people would say about it were it on there.

If RED themselves were to put online a 1080 clip of the footage, what's stopping people from respecting it as much as the milk girls clip? Did people say "WAH, I CAN DO THAT WITH MY CANON" when that was released? Just because something is online doesn't mean it's only to be found on YouTube. And I'm also not talking about a clip of someone filming the footage being played, I mean a scaled down version of the actual footage.

Maybe I'm just not thinking like a businessman, but it's a damn camera. People want to see what it can do, and I refuse to believe the only way to show it off is with 4K monitors. I guess it makes little difference anyway, since we'll get to see plenty of footage of the camera once it's released. :)

Did people say "so what?" when they watched Lord Of The Rings on DVD? I know I didn't. :)

[Noel Evans]

I think the best thing would be for Apple to post the PJ short shot with Red in 1080p. That would not only give Red a lot of publicity it will also highlight the fact that RED footage like the PJ film can be edited with FCP2 so everybody wins.


That would be pretty cool, though doubtful. What would be even more fun is if they released a bunch of the original files and had a competition for best editing, now that would just prove FC2 and red is totally viable.

[ddp]

....... If they put it out on DVD or whatever, I can guarantee there will be a massive chorus of "so what -- I can do that on my XHA1" or whatever.......

People are going to be saying that no matter what. That's why forums thrive.......



ddp

[HVXguy]

I think the short was actually edited with the Quantel.
In due time RED might have a videoshowcase much like this.

http://www.quantel.com/site/en.nsf/HTML/showcasevideo?OpenDocument

[NOMADIC]

I understand why they would show it in 4k presentation, but how unrealistic is that for even the next 5 years. Why wouldn't they have the red footage printed to film and projected the way that MOST people will have there films played. Seeing a RED produced image on a theater screen would be impressive. The number of digitally projected theaters is rising, and yes I realize its very cost effective, but that market really does not exisit yet.

RED: Make Camera technology, not presentation. Or atleast release the camera first.

[Blood Angel]

RED: Make Camera technology, not presentation. Or atleast release the camera first.

They already did it the other way around... very successful... ;)

[Barry_Green]

They could certainly print it to film and present it that way. It would look softer/grainier than what they showed, of course, but yes film distribution is far and away the dominant theatrical release method right now.

Look, it doesn't affect me one way or the other if they want to release it however they want to release it. I was just trying to explain what I figured was the reasoning behind why they wanted it shown "properly", in the way that it was meant to be seen. Like a 3D film; you could post that on the web but it isn't going to "work" the way it's supposed to, y'know? Or IMAX. Why make an Imax film and then release it on DVD -- kind of defeats the whole purpose. This was supposed to be test footage that shows off how good the Red can look, not to show Peter Jackson making a 12-minute film.

But hey, maybe they'll release it as a short film as well, who knows?

[HVXguy]

Hello Barry,

I think JJ announced they are prepping a 1K version now....
4K stills are coming end of day as well.

[kenn michael]

The short was edited in Final Cut (pre-release version of FCS using the native Redcode Raw footage) and onlined/graded on a Pablo system.

[GaryinCalifornia]

Isn't Pablo like a $200k system... out of my price range to buy one... but just trying to remember...

[Elton]

My question is: How was it actually played into the projector? From a Mac with Dual DVI?

[Illya Friedman]

I don't get it. A lot of people seem to be jumping on a wagon that has no wheels. There seems to be more Buzz about Dalsa than Red. That could say more about the crowd I've been hanging around.

I have not seen this camera shoot a single pixel, let alone 4K's worth. The footage I have seen is what's been making the rounds and doesn't look that good.

I'm guessing that if this camera can (be) deliver that the mistake that's been made is creating demand for something they have not been able to deliver. I was equally critical of Panasonic when they screwed up the release of the HVX and showed up to NAB with a mock-up. Sure some will argue it worked out alright - but we don't know the real opportunity costs associated with such a blunder.

I think its a bad idea to be talking about a new camera when they haven't delivered a single "Red" camera. Though the bad marketing might not effect Red as much as it did Panasonic, I don't think Dalsa can deliver a 4K camera yet either.
I just caught this. We've had several Origin II cameras officially available for rental since January of 2007.

I.

[KyleProhaska]

There is a clip of Jacksons film on the RED site.

- Kyle

[Bluesteel988]

There is a clip of Jacksons film on the RED site.

- Kyle


wow that was gorgeous. thanks for the link, i've been waiting for them to upload it, but i hadn't check recently.

[David Saraceno]

Any thing more on the pocket RED?

[bikefilms]

When we spoke with Ted at NAB, he made a point to say their pocket cam would not be Prosumer, but that it would be a Pro cam.

that's it:)

-andrew

[Digigenic]

Any thing more on the pocket RED?
Well, according to one of Jim's posts on DVinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=664852&postcount=56) he said "Details in a few months".
That post was written on April 21st, 2 months ago.
So unless it's been stated otherwise, we can expect some more details on the camera to surface sometime next month.

[David Saraceno]

I see that RED is in a shipping delay:

http://www.red.com/news/view/87

It's likely that will affect the pocket cam I would venture.

[AJ101]

damit

[dvpixl]

im sure the mini would go into pre-production regardless

[snowleopard]

Another production hold at 10-25-07. Still no info on the "pro" consumer cam. Maybe a plastic box at NAB?

Anyone considering Vision Research and their Phantom cameras? (http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm?sector=htm/files&page=NAB_Videos)

[Barry_S]

I'm sure they have their hands full with Red One issues, so I wouldn't expect to see a mini any time soon. Without the complete success of Red One, there won't be a mini, so they're rightfully focusing their efforts.

[Digigenic]

Anyone considering Vision Research and their Phantom cameras? (http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm?sector=htm/files&page=NAB_Videos)
It's interesting, but when browsing their store, I noticed something odd.
They've got a pretty serious price markup on the ZF 100mm Makro-Planar lens.
Why do I need to buy that lens from them for $2100 when B&H and most other places are selling it for $1500?
It doesn't appear to be a rehoused lens.
Because if it was rehoused, that might be worth considering, but it's the same lens - so what justifies the $600 price increase?