New sony cam follows our beloved HVX [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

scharky

04-16-2007, 10:15 AM

"Sony's PR guy told us the camera would ship later this year, probably in the fall, with a price somewhere in the neighborhood of $8000."

Wowzers . . . what a steal, huh?
I'll bet people are lining up for this one (NOT)!!!
(kinda like if Gemeral Motors had introduced their version of the Edsel in 1975).

My guess: If this thing ever sees the light of day they'll probably only sell 200-300 in the first 12 months and then it will be discontinued.

Native frame rates? I wonder.

This thing is pure copycat.

So what? When Companies start to copycat, and improve over older technology (not saying this is, there aren't enough specs on it yet) then why is that bad for us? You guys know that the HVX isn't going to be around forever, and there are other companies making some pretty bad ass cameras. I don't get why everyone gets all freaked out that new cameras are being announced.
I personally am not a huge fan of Sony cameras in the past, also wasn't a big fan of Canon cameras in the past, until the A1 came out.
GUYS, THIS IS GOOD NEWS NOT BAD NEWS, stop acting like it's the end of the world.

Mark Harris

04-16-2007, 10:28 AM

yes, this is good news. I wonder why they are not bringing into the HVX price range though. All things considered, even if the XDCam is as good as the HVX, almost $3K more? I read the blurb, but why not aim directly at the HVX market?

Gregg

04-16-2007, 11:08 AM

Some of you people make me feel like I am in a Mac store (cult headquarters).

Panasonic is not god and yes, other companies are able to produce a serious contender and even perhaps blow Panasonic out of the water if they wish.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara

04-16-2007, 11:23 AM

Where is Barry? I want to hear what the guru has to say.... :)

The only thing that sounds nice about the cam are 1/2 chips... other than that, I'm not sure what the advantage is.....

William_Robinette

04-16-2007, 11:28 AM

Fully manual lens, and a workflow much more refined in many respects, cheaper media all come to mind.

Lenilenapi

04-16-2007, 11:35 AM

Not to mention the archiving option on what they say are inexpensive HDCAM discs.
It sounds promising and all the Sony bashing here is ridiculous. Of course the Panasonic bashing all over that DVUser article was also ridiculous and made me suspicious of its claims. Who paid for that article?

doccutter

04-16-2007, 11:47 AM

It seems to me, the sony has the advantage of having 1/2" chips, a cheaper and more available storage medium, and if the lens is what it says it is, this is a biiiiiig deal. I see two possible achilles heels: 1- the codec. I haven't seen the XDCAM HD codec in person, but I'm still a bit wary of long GOP codecs (unbridled praise from the UK article aside). 2, I haven't yet seen a sony cam with the color reproduction I get from the HVX. We'll just have to wait and see, but I've hoped for real manual lenses before, and I still haven't seen 'em in our price range for the quality we're looking for.

rgbuser

04-16-2007, 12:10 PM

Clearly the future is tapeless, and this confirms it. Expect competition from Canon and JVC next! But one thing that Sony did right - by the looks of it, there's no provision for MiniDV. I wonder just how many of us actually use the tape drive for any serious shooting? I bought some tape when I bought the camera a year ago and still haven't opened the package. I'd be very happy if Panasonic had thrown out the tape drive and use the money for something else - side-ways mount viewfinder, longer lens - or just gave us a more compact camera. BTW don't celebrate too soon: support for the HVX in NLE was really prompt and useable from the start, just because the card fits don't mean the files can be imported!

Domis Entertainment

04-16-2007, 12:34 PM

I can see why some of the HVX Patriots are getting their panties in a bunch. It is competition, and that is good for everyone! Now that HVX has a head to head competitor, they will battle eachother out in price drops over the next few years. I doubt we will see a price drop or a major reinvention of the HVX, but do expect the memory to continue to get cheaper and cheaper. I bought my 8GB around 1200 bucks..now we can buy 16GB for 900? I wouldn't doubt that we can thank the fear of competition for this result.

Plus...let's not forget guys..if you really are worried about your HVX looking limp next to the new Sony..just install the new HYDRA system.

Consider the HYDRA SYSTEM as a form of Penis Enlargement or Male Enhancement for the HVX.

I wonder what Canon has up their sleeve at NAB2007 this year? Is JVC gonna sit around comfortably in last place?

Sirocco

04-16-2007, 12:42 PM

I dream of a Canon A-1 with Express Card, no tapes and a price tag of $3500.

Optiks

04-16-2007, 12:46 PM

Am I reading the specs right? Variable frame rates and interchangeable lenses??

John Godden

04-16-2007, 12:58 PM

Am I reading the specs right? Variable frame rates and interchangeable lenses??

Looks like a 'fixed' lens to me. Where did you read about interchangeable lenses???

JohnG

mrWr0ng

04-16-2007, 01:04 PM

What is with the 4:2:0 color? Are they still using the HDV codec and long GOP for this? If so, why? What's the point?

I look forward to cheaper prices through competition, as with the advent of the 32gb card the HVX finally has 1 hour record times to rival tape, making it just as suitable as any other HD cam for any kind of gig, but it seems strange that Sony would go with a troublesome codec.

The larger chip sounds nice, though. I bet a Hydra for the Sony would hold up well against the Hydra for the HVX, altho they're probably, pros and cons weighed, pretty equal in the field.

Optiks

04-16-2007, 01:15 PM

Looks like a 'fixed' lens to me. Where did you read about interchangeable lenses???

JohnG

"... I've had it straight from the horses mouth that it is going to be a Fujinon built in lens and quite possibly a proper one with infinity stops, not a servo-focus job that simply spins for ever."

Yeah. I misread the info. Looks like a fixed lens.

Links here: http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158

David Wanger

04-16-2007, 02:14 PM

" Links here: http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158

Looks like a cool camera but...

"There is absolutely no doubt that 2007 is going to be Sony's year; and a very busy one at that."

Get real. Is this guy on Sony's payroll or what?

jake stutheit

04-16-2007, 03:53 PM

I think this is freakin great news! While im not a fan of Sony, HVX users / lovers have everthing to gain from this. Competition breeds better prices and new products. When Sonys PR campaign for this camera heats up before its release, Panasonic would be really stupid not to not to offer a new product, or drop prices somewhere, or offer an upgrade of somekind. Panasonic now does not have a monopoly on a prosumer pricetag camera with variable framerates and solid state recording, which can only mean good things for everyone.

ggdelarge

04-16-2007, 04:04 PM

I welcome the expansion of the market. remember when all the sony users said solid states is lame and a hassle of a workflow?

Camera seems interesting and has a couple good specs like 1/2 chip and express cards but who cares about that when your still recording on a shitty format like mpeg2 using GoP(hdv)? you dont get more record time using their highest quality video. and you get less color space (sony gets 4:2:0 compared to pana's 4:2:2). I'd also just like to say that the dvuser.uk article was pretty lame and biased with comments like "...These new products and technological advancements will put Sony light-years ahead of the competition as they cover tape, disc, solid state cards..." which arent even true. I welcome more cameras and technology, but i dont see sony's offering anything new or better (or cheaper). we'll have to see all the specs once they are released.

kamikaze1213

04-16-2007, 04:25 PM

I knew this was only a matter of time. Sony had been quiet for so long that I knew they were cooking up something. It makes sense though, The HVR Z had good looking images and was pretty decent camera but came lacking with no true 24fp mode and they had to answer market somehow. Looks like this is going to be it. I love my Panasonic but have always been a little concerned in the area of P2 and it's longevity in the market place, I have made posts about the technology going obsolete and the frustration of the high costs of P2 Media. I'm still lovin my HVX but I can't deny the draw that this new camera is bringing. I may pick one up once I have heard more about it, seen footage etc..

harddrive

04-16-2007, 04:56 PM

As time goes by there is increasingly little doubt that the future will more and more be solid state. But that is the future, and to Sonys credit they seem to realise that a onesize fits all model is not currently sensible, and selling solidstate cameras alongside disc and HDV models with commonalities of editing is a sound strategy.

Two things about this camera (the EX) surprise me: 1/2" chips and the use of Express Card as opposed to Memory Stick or Compact Flash.

The 1/2" chips in a camera of this price/size is highly significant, and is something I would rate as more important than the codec/colour space issues.

As regards media, I can't help wondering if CF or MS would have been a better choice for the EX camera at the moment. (Much cheaper per Gigabyte.) That said, I suspect the real interest in Express Card memory is in future extensions to the pro ranges, so maybe the EX may be valid as an initial step at validating the format? Maybe a format which is more expensive than CF, but still far cheaper than P2, whilst outperforming the latter, may be more suitable for pro ranges, especially as time goes on?

Either way, the future for P2 looks more and more bleak - compared to Express Card it is now slower, more expensive per GB, and being natively supported on fewer and fewer computers.

I look forward to seeing what JVC and Canon do in the next year.

Optiks

04-16-2007, 05:02 PM

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158

Here's an interesting bias:

"So basically, Sony have watched Panasonic and have learned from their mistakes. They have allowed Panasonic go gloat for the past few years, but now they are hear to crash the party; big time! and they are bring a bigger keg of beer that tastes a lot nicer. I've always compared the solid-state thing as a video version of the 'space race' between the Americans and the Russians. Who was going to get to the moon first? Well this was similar, because Panasonic wanted to get their first, they simply rushed the technology by stuffing four bog-standard SD cards into a PC Card by way of raid as this was the only way to achieve the transfer speeds required. Sure, Panasonic got there first, but with the wrong technology; old technology. Instead, Sony watched and waited and now they are going to spring their trump card and it is called the EX series XDCAM EX HD. It's new, it's the latest technology that will be around long after the P2 graveyard has had new houses and modern apartments built over the top of it. It is not going to be around until November this year, but when it is, expect a revolution as Sony take the XDCAM family well and truly into the future."

Isaac_Brody

04-16-2007, 05:06 PM

Competition is great, but that article was over the top and pretty overzealous. I'll withhold judgment until I see footage.

saturnin

04-16-2007, 05:15 PM

that design looks like ass, i use all types of SD/HDV cameras and i really dont like the look of sony, its great in low light but it just looks like "americas funniest videos", its FLAT!!!
I think having a new camera come out is great biness for everyone, but i will stick with panny for a little bit longer.

Kholi

04-16-2007, 05:17 PM

der4

04-16-2007, 05:20 PM

This is nice but RED has got something coming out which could make them KING of the industry. The mini Red camera is coming according to reports. That's right a second camera. Very exciting time!

Personally I think it is "RED" year.

Kholi

04-16-2007, 05:21 PM

Where the hell is mini Red at? What are you talking about? Links?

der4

04-16-2007, 05:23 PM

Check out the NAB 2007 section of this website. According to this RED is going to release a mini camera! "pocket camera"

http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/?p=36

Simon Wyndham

04-16-2007, 05:25 PM

Well here's my article;
http://www.tapelessrev.com/xdcamnab2007.html

Sony have had this in the pipeline for a while. The reason they haven't gone solid state up until now is because of the cost of the cards and other workflow issues. But with this camera as part of the XDCAM family those issues go away because there is a very good and reliable backup and archive solution there for it in the form of the U1 drive and XDCAM discs (which are having their prices slashed after NAB).

As for colour space issues, ask Discovery HD and National Geographic what they think of the 35Mbps codec. I think the fact that they accept it without restriction and have successfully torture tested it through the entire broadcast chain is enough to put any talk of such issues to bed. Further more if this camera uses the same 1/2" chips as the current XDCAM HD, then those channels might well accept a whole programme shot on one of these. Remember, the reason the HVX200 is only allowed limited footage in their productions is because of the 1/3" chips. The 1/2" should get around this considering their unquestioned acceptance of programmes shot on the F330 and F350 cameras.

kamikaze1213

04-16-2007, 05:26 PM

RED is also a $17,500 bare minumum investment. I agree with Issac and Kholi, Lets see the images and footage and make a judgemnet from there. Lots of things look great on paper then when it boils down to a real world scenario it's completely different. Plus the idea of the HVX being a mini RED is quite appealing as well. Footage fisrt, questions later for me.

saturnin

04-16-2007, 05:30 PM

there are other outlets not just discovery and national geographic. if your content is good..u can DVX, PD150 etc footage can get on tv. Dont buy into this bullshit hype. lol

der4

04-16-2007, 05:32 PM

I own a Sony V1U. (Need for docs etc.) This looks like a great camera. One I could seriously consider instead of the HVX as a replacement for my V1U. What an exciting year. But according to reports in the NAB 2007 section of this web site it looks like RED might have a competing SECOND camera as well. If not fine. If so things are going to get very interesting.

taormina

04-16-2007, 05:34 PM

Sony cams are usually ugly...they all look hunchbacked like quasimodo. Sorry, that's the most intelligent thing I could muster right now.

Kholi

04-16-2007, 06:00 PM

Forget all of that. I want to know what the deal is on RED's second camera. POCKET CAM?

In comparison to what? An HVX? Or the RED? Cause if it's a pocket Cam in comparison to RED ONE... that means HVX sized................

Uhm.. updates please.

der4

04-16-2007, 06:11 PM

According to "Studio Daily" Ted @ Red said it's being developed. So it's going to happen the question is when? I'm sure we will hear about it in the upcoming weeks.

Kholi

04-16-2007, 06:19 PM

It's VERY strange to me that the news has been broken on Studio Daily and there's not a peep of it over at Reduser.net.

He says there'll be more info coming soon in his report... guess I'll keep my eye on it.

der4

04-16-2007, 06:31 PM

On Red's site it is mentioned periodically. Gibby is the one following it there.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1599

Here's another thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1589

Kholi

04-16-2007, 06:38 PM

Thanks Der.

TimurCivan

04-16-2007, 07:31 PM

Seriously. Forget the card workflow. Let me see the image and I'll judge from that. Sony's flavor of image, as far as I know, has never satisified my tastes in the first place.

And at 8000? ... Come on.

100 bucks sasys it has the "oil" paint effect..... jk jk jk.....

But they are talking about "archiving disater that is P2".... ... What? are you kidding? he said the top IT guy reccomended DLT or BRDiscs. And then the guy trashed BR discs.... and said storing Archived data on XDcam Discs is better.... So why dont we just store P2 on XDcam discs as data... which based on the inference is possible?

Im glad this machine came out. I hope for all its atributes its not murdered by SONY flavored HDV. it it truly rocks, i will buy one.

William_Robinette

04-16-2007, 08:16 PM

der4

04-16-2007, 09:08 PM

I'm happy with my V1U. I think the HVX is a great camera. In fact I think it's great that we have so many options. I'm glad Sony is finally listening. Now I need to make more money with my camera so that I can buy a RED.

The Sarlacc

04-16-2007, 09:12 PM

Guys, really, if you are happy with your HVX then great. You don't need to go bashing another product brought to the marketplace.

And with regards to the "sony flat image" crap, if you cannot get a decent looking picture out of a camera in the $3k+ range, you are a bad DP... period. The tools are there, learn to use them.

Brilliant. I very much agree with everything this man is saying. Especially the last paragraph...that's exactly what I thought when I read it.

Thats great that you all love your hvx. I love mine...but a lot of you are just coming off blind and ignorant...Its like walking into a BMW forum.

TimurCivan

04-16-2007, 09:21 PM

i wanna know more about its variable framerates.... if they had guts theyd figure out a way of making 120 FPS capability.....

Ryan Patrick O'Hara

04-16-2007, 09:36 PM

So basically, Sony have watched Panasonic and have learned from their mistakes. They have allowed Panasonic go gloat for the past few years, but now they are hear to crash the party; big time! and they are bring a bigger keg of beer that tastes a lot nicer. I've always compared the solid-state thing as a video version of the 'space race' between the Americans and the Russians. Who was going to get to the moon first? Well this was similar, because Panasonic wanted to get their first, they simply rushed the technology by stuffing four bog-standard SD cards into a PC Card by way of raid as this was the only way to achieve the transfer speeds required. Sure, Panasonic got there first, but with the wrong technology; old technology. Instead, Sony watched and waited and now they are going to spring their trump card and it is called the EX series XDCAM EX HD. It's new, it's the latest technology that will be around long after the P2 graveyard has had new houses and modern apartments built over the top of it. It is not going to be around until November this year, but when it is, expect a revolution as Sony take the XDCAM family well and truly into the future.
I LOVE this article, what an idiot. I am not saying the new cam isnt great and panny is better, but if you're going to bash and talk smack about panny, you better at least spell check... Last time I was in a school, they taught me "Sony HAS watched panasonic...." and "now they are HERE to crash the party"...

Also last I remember, the following is not a whole sentance, "and they are bring a bigger keg of beer that tastes a lot nicer." Not only does it start with a conjunction but it does not even make sense.

Sorry, but people who smear other cameras and display a clear lack of literacy bother me to no end! If you can't write properly, why should I even listen to you?

Read the rest of the article..... this guy must have been writing late in his Vegas hotel room after attending many NAB parties!
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158

:)

TimurCivan

04-16-2007, 09:44 PM

And dont forget the PD150 or 170 were the KING for along time. Like many companies, if somethign works dont fix it. the PD150 worked (and still does) so innovation can slow down a bit. Panasonic upped the ante with the DVX100, and saw what good innovation brings. The chance they took was big. what if people didint like 24p. noone would care about the DVX100, and the PD150 would have led to the Fx1\z1 and the world would have stayed in Interlaced heaven. But it takes time to get a product right. the V1 was a step in the right direction but needed some tweaks. And this is the fruit of sony labour. If the XDCAM HD format, is good, (despite 420) this cam will deservedly take the #1 slot. that just means the sucessor to the HVX200 needs to KICK ALOT of Ass. who knows, with its half inch CCDs it jsut may be a perfect combo of , lowlight, razor sharp noiseless picture and high dynamic range. sounds good to me :)

Barry_Green

04-16-2007, 09:54 PM

I haven't seen anything at the Sony booth at all yet. Biggest thing I see in this is: now every major manufacturer is offering solid-state recording. XDCAM discs? Bah. Thomson, Red, Ikegami, Panasonic, and now finally Sony are all offering solid-state memory recording...

Hey, I say let's see it. I haven't seen a Sony camcorder since the PD150 that's been actually intriguing, but if they're learning and adapting and starting to produce the product that customers actually want, that can only be taken as good news.

XDCAM-HD though? Blah. Sooner or later they'll stop that and switch to an H.264 compression system. When they do, that will be a good day.

TimurCivan

04-16-2007, 10:01 PM

avc intra?

Justyn

04-16-2007, 10:26 PM

Anyone else see that footage on the apple site showing off the Red cam with Jarred in the background? Atleast I think it's him from... Amazing how you guys get around.

i also think that the Red cam looks too beautiful and pretty to bring onto location. Kind of like that new Cinealta...

Also.. what kind of a jackass report about hiding out and waiting for the right time to spring their Sony cam on the public. Or for people waiting for future stuff to begin with. My HVX has been paid off for a while... so it would have been stupid to have waited.. for what. The way I see it, I'd probably get 80 percent of my investment back now... if I jumped onto something else.. But I don't see that happenenging. Love the HVX.. but I would like to get a little pocket HD cam...

What's in the works?

Barry, did you see that new contraption by AJA.. That new FCP codec converter HD oor whatever it is.. Looks really impressive.

sodotoguwangus

04-17-2007, 12:24 AM

I don't see why everybody has to bash this camera just cause it's better than the HVX.

Kholi

04-17-2007, 12:47 AM

ROFL. I hope that wasn't a serious comment.

Please, point me to the footage if so. WOW

mikkowilson

04-17-2007, 02:06 AM

I stopped by the Sony both (to check out some other gear [that I don't hink i'll be recomending either actully]) and listened to part of the presentation about this camera.

About half of the presentation was spent mudslinging "[some other HD memero card cameras]" with such stunning statements such as "[thanks to the superiror long GOP technology]" this thing beats the HVX. SINCE WHEN IS LONG GOP A "FEATURE"?!! A lot of the presenation was like that.

As they didn't seem to have any actual features to talk about - except the "fast mostion" and "slow motion" "efects" (I fear for what this will actually be, as the only framerates mentioned where 24,25,30,50 and good old 60.) - I found something better to do with my time than listen to their canned badmouthing and moved on.

- Mikko

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 02:29 AM

he said the top IT guy reccomended DLT or BRDiscs. And then the guy trashed BR discs.... and said storing Archived data on XDcam Discs is better.... So why dont we just store P2 on XDcam discs as data... which based on the inference is possible?

You can't store P2 on XDCAM discs because they are a different format. XDCAM discs are not general storage discs. Also Blu-Ray is a consumer format. XDCAM on the other hand are protected discs made more robustly than the consumer ones, and the system also features extensive error recovery and error correction systems in the extremely rare event that anything should go wrong.

About half of the presentation was spent mudslinging "[some other HD memero card cameras]"

Probably taking a leaf out of Panasonics book.

As they didn't seem to have any actual features to talk about - except the "fast mostion" and "slow motion" "efects"

If you read the infomration available such on on my site http://www.tapelessrev.com you'll find that it has full variable framerate. Sony have never been any good at PR.

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 02:32 AM

Hey, I say let's see it. I haven't seen a Sony camcorder since the PD150 that's been actually intriguing, but if they're learning and adapting and starting to produce the product that customers actually want, that can only be taken as good news.

Considering that demand is outsripping supply of the XDCAM disc based cameras I think it is obvious that people want that. Show me a freelancer who owns a shoulder mounted P2 camera.

finally Sony are all offering solid-state memory recording
Sony have never ruled it out. They even said as much in some of their earlier XDCAM literature. Just don't expect solid state on the higher end of the rage to replace the discs. Their strategy is very sound, and works.

they'll stop that and switch to an H.264 compression system. When they do, that will be a good day.

Why? Sony are sticking to MPEG 2 for the following reasons. The first is that they have got the art of MPEG2 compression down to a tee. They know that with MPEG2 they don't have the processing overheads of H264 and it is much easier for NLE makers to integrate. Also, apart from more compression efficiency at the acquisition stage, please inform what H264 can do that MPEG2 can't?

Flash Beaver

04-17-2007, 04:39 AM

Let's look at it this way, there may be a day when Panasonic's HVX-whatever, is recording h264 vers 20 on Express Cards with a .002 cent label that says P2XP or something. At the same time you'll see a Sony Camera that uses express cards, but low and behold, it records XDCAMHD-264, or whatever they decide to call it.

If or when that day comes, I will have long since stopped using my HVX200 and all the data (footage) I shot on it will be sitting nicely on a handful of holographic nanodiscs with a 200 year shelf life. And all my hard drives will be sitting in a second hand store somewhere in rural Oregon.

Do I have a crystal ball? Nope, and neither do any of you.

I think the idea of a small 1/2" camcorder that takes solid state cards of any kind for under $10k is a great thing. But when I look at the Sony NAB power point slides and see the EX format down at the bottom of the food chain, with those clever fringes as it moves into mainstream TV, I can't help but wonder how a broadcaster will treat work acquired with this camera. Especially for those that are actually concerned by this.

Discovery, restricts the HVX200. Can any of you solidly tell me that they won't put some content percentage restriction on the new Sony EX? You can not! Do I really care what Discovery thinks? Not really. I don't have any plans of producing for them in the near future. When they want to contract me to produce something "for them" and "their way" then you can bet I will care very much.

But if a company likes our finished product, thinks it can sell nicely to their market and we've come to a good money agreement, it won't matter what HD format it was acquired on. If I've done my job as a photographer and producer, I know I will get paid.

Give me a slick brochure for a hot broadcast camera and I'll show you at least a dozen programs shooting pure dog crap using those same cameras.

The Sony EX offering I think is pretty damn cool in some ways but didn't really turn me on too much. Let me see a complete card based solution with a rugged field storage device and a real support phone number inside the manual for Sony Broadcast and you may get my attention.

At this stage in the Video/IT game, I'm glad to not be attached to any one storage format. You can preach the long term merits of XDCAM all day. I'll keep staring at my stack of Sony D2 and 1 inch masters gazing dustily back at me; comforted by the knowledge I can walk into any computer store or big retail chain in the free world, pick up a pair of Caviar 250's and be dumping my footage safe and sound for at least the next 3-5 years. After that, who knows. Like I said, I don't have a crystal ball.

So for now, I'll be standing out here on the river, happilly swapping my P2 cards for a while to come. If I have a problem I know the number to Pansonic Broadcast actually works and they'll take care of a little beaver like me. I know if I post a question to Jan she'll do her absolute best to respond and resolve.

I have an awesome HVX book to dig through and a killer support site to post on to. When Sony has all that for little guys like us they may actually earn my business.

Until then give me a bag full of Zylights, my upgrade to Motion 3 and a Merlin with a vest, and an HV20 and I'll call it good! Oh yeah, and a house on the beach, two new volkswagens and a foreign love slave would be nice too!

:bath:

See you at the top...

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 04:59 AM

Discovery, restricts the HVX200. Can any of you solidly tell me that they won't put some content percentage restriction on the new Sony EX?

No, I can't say for definite. But then the EX uses 1/2" chips and the same codec as the current XDCAM HD cameras which ARE accepted by Discovery. The HVX200 was restricted mainly because of the chip size. These sorts of problems will not be an issue for the EX.

arrestthisman

04-17-2007, 06:21 AM

I have never like the picture from sony. Argue formats, blah blah blah... It all comes down to the image and the motion.

I've never liked em'. I think the F900 blows. There I said it. The motion is ALL off. It screams video. And yes I'm talking cinealta 24p. It's just not there.

Maybe this new cam will be different. But there is so much more to the overall quality than compression and glass. You just have to look at it.

I think the HVX200 images look like butter. And it's not about looking like film. It's about looking like CINEMA! Cinema has a very distinct quality to it. Even though all digital cinema IS video, video makes one think of TV, and interlaced pictures. etc.

I may be an HVX200 fanboy, but I'm not the only one to point out the panasonic seems to have the cinema look much better than the competition.

That said SI-2k samples look amazing. Good motion, everything.

I'm betting Red will be great to, but honestly. 4k or not (with all it has going for it), I haven't seen footage of the red yet. NATIVE footage. No matter how much better something is technically, it has to have the look you like. If the Red or anything else in that price range doesn't have that great cinema look, I'll go for something else. I know panasonic can pull it off. Si-2k can too. Red Maybe, don't know. But I'll take a camera with inferior specs with an image I like for the same money any day!

Hey some people don't like what I like. I'm not correct about this. It's subjective.
It's like PSP versus DS or any war. Specs are the smallest part of the story when push comes to shove. Barry? am I right?

RANT OVER.
need to stop drinking.

Justyn

04-17-2007, 07:34 AM

I don't see why everybody has to bash this camera just cause it's better than the HVX.

Hey I got some swamp.. ahhh I mean land.. for you to buy. Sight unseen. Talk about brand loyalty when the cam or footie even isn't out.

Kind of like when people were saying that the cinevate adapter was the best.. and it wasn't out.. and still isn't out and all that.

Speculation is crap! Give me what's here and now and tangible. Besides it's just a personal choice anyway... and I hate the Sony's. Always have... Also seems so derivative.... Similar to Windows Vista.... could that be an OSX clone again.. hmm

Flash Beaver

04-17-2007, 08:59 AM

No, I can't say for definite. But then the EX uses 1/2" chips and the same codec as the current XDCAM HD cameras which ARE accepted by Discovery. The HVX200 was restricted mainly because of the chip size. These sorts of problems will not be an issue for the EX.

Unfortunately, those two features alone do not neccessarily make this a killer camera or an "approved" camera. Sony's DSC-R1 still camera has an APS sensor but was still deficient compared to standard SLRs with like sensors. There is so much more once the chip hands the information off to the cameras back end. I'm not counting on Sony to place $20k in electronics into an $8k camera, but I'm not expecting everything to be rosy from the new EX either.

Sony still has a lot to prove to me before I'm going to lay down $8k or $35k and whore myself out to XDCAM format. Maybe good for you, but it certainly won't work for me, at least not now.

The only thing I can expect is a fatter meaner HVX down the road.

1/2" or not, I guess we'll all have to wait and see. It's still going to take more than a fat chip to slide me over. They've got to show a more finished package for solid state, and let's have a look at what it really pumps out footage wise.

taormina

04-17-2007, 09:09 AM

I too have shot the Cinealta F900 for a week with a set of Zeiss digiprimes. The picture was pretty good....but honestly the HVX is not too far behind. Especially to the viewer.

Not sure about this johnny-come-latelty-cam they're putting out now. We'll have to wait and see.

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 09:10 AM

They've got to show a more finished package for solid state,

Not sure what you mean? Its an XDCAM which means it does everything all the other XDCAM cameras do in terms of workflow. Backup will be easy via PDZ-1 software (free with the equipment) to the U1 drive onto XDCAM discs. Easy.

When I get hold of a test model I'll be sure to do some test shots of my pet cat.

David Saraceno

04-17-2007, 09:38 AM

The Sony isn't shipping yet. It has some attractive features.

The point is, however, that competition fosters innovation, and that in turn fosters more features, and better values in these tools.

Every HVX user should welcome announcements like this.

How can the new Sony possibly hurt the end user of a HVX200?

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 09:47 AM

How can the new Sony possibly hurt the end user of a HVX200?

If you look closely at pictures of the EX you will see a slot behind the XDCAM writing. This houses a tongue that flips out at the flick of a button and makes a sound that goes "Nah nah nah!" and makes users of other cameras cry.

mrWr0ng

04-17-2007, 09:47 AM

It's like PSP versus DS or any war. Specs are the smallest part of the story when push comes to shove. Barry? am I right?

Haha this is very true. Both the PSP and the PS3 beat out all the competitors in specs. But innovation beat them both. It isn't always about the specs, it's about how the product gets used.

Flash Beaver

04-17-2007, 10:32 AM

Not sure what you mean? Its an XDCAM which means it does everything all the other XDCAM cameras do in terms of workflow. Backup will be easy via PDZ-1 software (free with the equipment) to the U1 drive onto XDCAM discs. Easy.

When I get hold of a test model I'll be sure to do some test shots of my pet cat.

Yes, definitely shoot the pet cat. And hey! If you do it like the Nokia 3650 phone video commercial with the cat on the ceiling fan, 10 extra points to you!!! :D

What I'm specifically referring to is how I'm going to capture and process in the field, when I don't have a powerbook, an external XDCAM drive and some discs handy and available and I don't want to own 15 cards.

As for Sony's solid state participation. I feel like its the old chicken and the pig anology. Sony is involved but Panasonic is committed. When I move up to the 500 or higher I know my flow isn't going to change and I won't be forced into XDCAM media.

I'm sure you probably have 15 different ways to explain why this may not be so. Your format of choice may be the next best thing since corn in a can, but just make it safe to say at this time I really don't have an economic or technical incentive to acquire or offer a proprietary disc format.

When I came back into this business, the fact that I wasn't forced into a proprietary medium was a big motivating factor. I speak from past experience on this.

When I look at your demo reel I see some awesome work. Whether you were shooting XDCAM or P2 changes nothing of your talent, or anyone else's. If there's any point I can make stick it would be this.

I will NEVER snub anybody's content based on how it was shot. Format snobs should have been rounded up and shot by firing squad in the 90s. Everybody needs to get paid for their QUALITY work, regardless of format. Bring some kick ass footage, that's well shot on HDV, XDCAM HD or DVCPRO100 and we'll work with it.

Likewise for the kind of work we do here, I'll take the Pepsi challenge with our HVX service against a shoulder cam wielding Portlander any day.

One way or another, people are going to have to make nice and accept both formats for what they are. Good or bad. People are going to have to ingest each other's
material when its called for. Colors will have to be matched, and "looks" reproduced.

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 10:48 AM

I will NEVER snub anybody's content based on how it was shot. Format snobs should have been rounded up and shot by firing squad in the 90s. Everybody needs to get paid for their QUALITY work, regardless of format.

You are correct there. I would much rather just have a forum somewhere on the net that bans all discussion of camera formats. But I stick around here because there are a lot of myths going around. Although I am rather puzzled by the following comment that you made if you use P2 on an HVX200...

What I'm specifically referring to is how I'm going to capture and process in the field, when I don't have a powerbook, an external XDCAM drive and some discs handy and available and I don't want to own 15 cards.

Surely for P2 in the field you need the same considerations, except you have to do things more manually (ie backup to lots of DVDs or BluRay, or banks of hard drives, or take a P2 store with you). The difference with the EX is that the other parts of the line and the workflow is already established, so it just slots in and the archive and backup media is proven to withstand a lot of punishment.

When I came back into this business, the fact that I wasn't forced into a proprietary medium was a big motivating factor. I speak from past experience on this.

I am also puzzled by this. I know Hoodman are now making cards, but really P2 is a proprietry Panasonic format. Until now you have had to buy Panasonic P2 cards. XDCAM by contrast with the discs may be a Sony development, but there are now four manufacturers (Sony, Fuji, Maxell, and TDK) making the discs, and the Express Cards are totally off the shelf technology.

I'll take the Pepsi challenge with our HVX service against a shoulder cam wielding Portlander any day.

And good on you. But we need to seperate the discussion about camera quality (which I don't really care much about because all cameras these days are pretty much equal to other cameras in their respective price ranges) with talks about workflow and cost of ownership.

Whichever piece of equipment someone wishes to buy is up to them. I'm just here to correct technical points rather than to get into a 'a format is better than b'. I know it comes across that I do sometimes, but at the end of the day I try to do it in a factually based way rather than as a pissing match.

Flash Beaver

04-17-2007, 11:27 AM

Surely for P2 in the field you need the same considerations, except you have to do things more manually (ie backup to lots of DVDs or BluRay, or banks of hard drives, or take a P2 store with you). The difference with the EX is that the other parts of the line and the workflow is already established, so it just slots in and the archive and backup media is proven to withstand a lot of punishment.

I am also puzzled by this. I know Hoodman are now making cards, but really P2 is a proprietry Panasonic format. Until now you have had to buy Panasonic P2 cards. XDCAM by contrast with the discs may be a Sony development, but there are now four manufacturers (Sony, Fuji, Maxell, and TDK) making the discs, and the Express Cards are totally off the shelf technology.

Yes, extremely good points and I'll address that. You are totally spot on about storage considerations. And I'm here to tell you my HVX200 without the P2 store would be like Cereal without the Milk. But the fact is, it is there right at the beginning with the system. It's proven to me to be extremely tough, never lost footage and is clipped right to my Tortlerig for 12-14 hour usage. I won't see a laptop until I'm back in the truck. All the same, Panasonic did put the package together and thought this out pretty well. Is it perfect? By all means no. But humping out of the clay banks on the Rogue River, while I'm dumping to a set of 2.5" seagate drives has always been a real snap. Never a problem transfer, and never a lost drive.

As for the proprietary attributes of P2. No doubt its Panansonic. But I do not perceive the nature of P2 the same way as XDCAM media. The P2 to me is a reusable intermediate, its not the final destination.

As for transferring manually, there still work to be done on the EX. I'm still going to have to move footage from SxS to XDCAM anyways. It maybe all there on the shoulder mount cameras when pop the disc out, but the EX is still going to have an extra step involved.

One day Panasonic may indeed switch out to something other than P2 cards, possibly go with something more "off the shelf". When it happens my P2 system will eventually go out the door for sale along with the HVX and the P2 Store or simply checked in as b-roll gear.

But the footage shot is liquid and can go anywhere I want it for long term storage with minimal drama. I'm not hooked in to one vendor for storage and content management needs. I've already tested this with nearly a dozen different storage/retrieval formats with confirmed great results every single time.

Granted, several companies may be producing XDCAM discs. (Of course I've got five Maxell 1-inch reels here.) But that still doesn't change the fact that Sony's XDCAM is the final destination for the material. It is my philosophy on storage and content management that keeps me away from the dependencies of this system, perceived or real.

I hope this does some good for someone out there, having the same questions or thoughts on the issue. I know I've wrapped my head on this more than once. If you are hooked in with a client who lives, eats and breathes XDCAM, and your camped out in their parking lot, then guess what??? You know what to go buy, don't you?

For now, it's time for this Beaver to head back to the dam and start editing or I won't have the the cash for my FCS upgrade!

:bath:

Tim Le

04-17-2007, 12:27 PM

I think with any solid state based camera you will always have the extra step of off-loading the footage to something else. The advantage of the XDCAM system is that you when you off-load to the professional disc, you already have your archive copy. When you off-load P2 to the P2 store, you still have to archive that data to another hard drive or something else. Also, the professional disc are rewritable and protected inside a case so they're not as fragile as just burning blu-ray disc. And if you acquire in XDCAM-HD, then archive to disc, the format, proxy and metadata all stay the same. So if you look at this objectively, the XDCAM system is actually very slick. It's well integrated and definitely worth a closer look.

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 12:38 PM

The P2 to me is a reusable intermediate, its not the final destination.

Same for XDCAM. The discs, and the cards are reusable. XDCAM discs are only the final destination if you choose them to be. Otherwise you can store the footage wherever you like, just like P2. The choice is yours.

but the EX is still going to have an extra step involved.

Just like P2. But also remember that the EX is part of the EX series. Sony will not just make a camera. You can bet your bottom Dollar that they have thought through the whole workflow and will be offering additional support products for it.

But the footage shot is liquid and can go anywhere I want it for long term storage with minimal drama. I'm not hooked in to one vendor for storage and content management needs.

Again, same for XDCAM. I keep all my footage archived on my discs, because I choose to. Not because I am forced to. XDCAM is file based just like P2, so you can keep your footage on whatever third party media or system you like.

But that still doesn't change the fact that Sony's XDCAM is the final destination for the material.

It isn't The final destination for material shot on XDCAM is wherever you want it to be. Be it HDCAM, DVCPRO, DVCAM, Digibeta, hard drives, DVD, or wherever else you want it to go. Where did you get the idea it has to go back to XDCAM disc?

Simon Wyndham

04-17-2007, 12:46 PM

Tim Le, you have got it in one.

I think one reason the subject of tapeless systems can cause a lot of argument is because different people like the workflow they have, and so they don't want a different system to become the industry standard and force them into a way of working that they don't like (I know in my own case this is one reason I champion XD so much).

I'm still uncomfortable taking valuable stills photographs with a digital camera. After having corrupt cards from taking them out of the card reader at the wrong point I just don't trust them.

harddrive

04-17-2007, 02:03 PM

XDCAM-HD though? Blah. Sooner or later they'll stop that and switch to an H.264 compression system. When they do, that will be a good day.
Sooner or later they will stop using MPEG2..... but I think it will be a very good day if they then move to a wavelet based compression system (as Red and Infinity are doing). AVC-Intra and any flavour of H264 may be more efficient than such as MPEG2, but they are still block systems. Staying with MPEG2 until edit systems are fully ready for such as JPEG2000 seems a good idea, rather than going for H264 in the interim.

unfiltered

04-19-2007, 12:31 AM

Does Sony have no shame whatsoever?

shame (shm)
n.
1.
a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?
2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.
3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.
4. A great disappointment.

Maybe? ;)

Huy Vu

04-19-2007, 01:44 AM

Kind of like when people were saying that the cinevate adapter was the best.. and it wasn't out.. and still isn't out and all that.
Uh, the Brevis is out, unless you're talking about some other accessories in their product line.

Hey I got some swamp.. ahhh I mean land.. for you to buy. Sight unseen. Talk about brand loyalty when the cam or footie even isn't out.
Speculation is crap! Give me what's here and now and tangible.
Agreed. One reason I keep seeing over and over against the Sony is "Sony camera doesn't product a film like image." And no one here has seen a single frame of what this camera can do! It's made even more ridiculous by the fact that tons of people have pointed out that it's not the camera, it's the operator. And yet we keep coming back to "the stock image isn't film like." It's like speaking to a vaccum. What is it with this ridiculous bias against the Sony? It feels like some HVX owners here are feeling threatened by this camera, sort of like when the HV20 was announced and A1 owners were afraid that it would undercut their $3500 camera. Fact is, we haven't seen it, haven't used it, and really don't know what it's capable of. Please don't bash it based on imaginary grievances; let's wait till it comes out.

JitCam

04-19-2007, 07:49 AM

personally im not at all concerned with the new sony cam, im sure its great in its own respect.. the hvx is well enough for me at this moment in time, there's always a better camera out there.. what you do with the camera you have ..is what really matters.

Flash Beaver

04-20-2007, 01:15 AM

Same for XDCAM. The discs, and the cards are reusable. XDCAM discs are only the final destination if you choose them to be. Otherwise you can store the footage wherever you like, just like P2. The choice is yours.

Just like P2. But also remember that the EX is part of the EX series. Sony will not just make a camera. You can bet your bottom Dollar that they have thought through the whole workflow and will be offering additional support products for it.

No I never bet my bottom dollar on these things. Sony, show something more about workflow and storage options OTHER than just external XDCAM drive and then you may have my attention. Must see it all together first before I ever shell one dime to Sony. We shall see.

It isn't The final destination for material shot on XDCAM is wherever you want it to be. Be it HDCAM, DVCPRO, DVCAM, Digibeta, hard drives, DVD, or wherever else you want it to go. Where did you get the idea it has to go back to XDCAM disc?

Dude, we were talking about final destination for storage, NOT distribution. You don't actually thinik I expect finished product or dailies to go on only one format do you?

harddrive

04-20-2007, 03:33 AM

And I'm here to tell you my HVX200 without the P2 store would be like Cereal without the Milk. But the fact is, it is there right at the beginning with the system. It's proven to me to be extremely tough, never lost footage and is clipped right to my Tortlerig for 12-14 hour usage. I won't see a laptop until I'm back in the truck.
All very true, and what goes unsaid is that you are using this NOW - the forthcoming Sony line won't be available for a few months yet.

But to me, a great beauty of forums such as this is to be able to look and hopefully plan ahead. To try and avoid a costly purchase days before a new and better solution hits the shops. Nobody should be saying that "A is now out, time to throw away B and reequip" - but if you are looking to reequip soon, move away from tape say, then, hey, maybe waiting that little big longer can sometimes be a good idea.

As far as downloading goes, then it's worth bearing in mind that the highest quality setting of XDCAM systems is 35Mbs, so a 16GB card will store approx 16 mins with P2, but more like 45 minutes with XDCAM. Coupled with SxS cards being expected at around half the cost of the same size P2 card, that means you should be able to buy a 32 GB SxS card for the same as a 16GB P2 card. So - for the same cost - 90 minutes on SxS versus 16 minutes on P2! At those sort of price comparisons, you don't need 15 cards, more like 2,3, 4 at the outside, to see you through even a pretty hard day. (Three 16GB SxS cards should give a longer recording time than 15 8GB P2, at a fifth the price!!)

I'm currently working on DVCAM, and have now been keeping a close eye on tapeless developments for a couple of years. I'm not required to work HD at the moment (though it's only a matter of time) and find the Firestore a useful interim device to give me many tapeless benefits now. But it is only interim, and I've been keeping my fingers crossed that a suitable solid state solution arrives before I am forced to upgrade.

With the advent of SxS, I think my prayers may have been answered. Now when will we see a pro style 2/3" SxS camera...........? THAT is the big question.

alpi69

04-20-2007, 04:42 AM

My take on this SONY cam (from someone who makes a living with the HVX and deals with networks in Europe):
P2 is a hassle over here. People want tape or XDCam. Simple as that. There are networks that don´t accept files or can´t even get them, because their editor is not online. Panasonic made such a big mistake with the P2 pricing. They crippled their marketshare by being greedy. They wanted to get their development costs in and forgot to create a market.
Don´t get me wrong: as you guys know I love the Panasonic cams, I own a Panasonic stillcamera, Panasonic Plasma at home. I like their products and their price-value relation. BUT in P2 they made it wrong. Best example is the current pricedrop of P2. Why did they not gradually do it. Why did we have such a problem with that French dealersite in January. I know people who went elsewhere because of the price of P2. And those who bought the Cam + cards not long ago are now pissed off , because their investment just lost 50%. And that is a lot even in IT. I still don´t know what it did good to the P2-technology to stick to the price for the 8GB card for so long. Now they have a marginal marketshare in Europe (compared to JVC and SONY and Canon) and no big productionhouse that doesn´t own P2 will invest in a P2 cardreader. But they do already invest in XDCam Readers, even if they don´t shoot XDcam themselves. (2 of my clients do, so that is a fact)

To the cam: If it is indeed a 1/2 chip cam with manual controls and variable framerates and modern EX cards it will wipe the floor with the HVX200, if Pana doesn´t respond properly. I will use my HVX the next 12 months and milk it as much as I can. But then I might be very interested into that XDcam EX camera.

But then again: I can see the HVX300 being maybe still 1/3 chip, but with 1080p var framerates, P2 adapters for Express-slotcard, a great EVF and LCD, maybe speedramp (changing the framerate during the shot), a 25x zoom from 28 - 700mm. One can dream...

harddrive

04-20-2007, 05:34 AM

Panasonic made such a big mistake with the P2 pricing. They crippled their marketshare by being greedy. They wanted to get their development costs in and forgot to create a market.
I actually don't think they had much of a choice. For what they are (4 SD cards, raid controller, etc etc) the price is a pretty fair reflection. The real trouble is that that complexity is now no longer necessary - technology has moved on - and Panasonic now have Infinity snapping at one heel with Compact Flash, and Sony snapping at the other with SxS. And apart from the pricing issues, then whereas ExpressCard and CF are still very current architectures in new equipment, then Cardbus (on which P2 is based) is obsolescent. It's yet another example of why being first is not always a good thing!

Which all gives the decision makers at Panasonic some very, very hard choices to make in the next few months. Stick with P2, and try to ride out the storm, or move on, maybe to SxS themselves, with Panasonic codecs? I'd actually been expecting Sony to announce something using Memory Stick technology, and Panasonic to then counter with P2 MkII based on ExpressCard form factor, which is obviously the natural succesor to P2. What I certainly HADN'T been expecting was a Z1 type camera with a true manual lens and 1/2" chips. Those features alone really are revolutionary.

Frankly, as a freelancer, I hope Panasonic do move to SxS. It may be one hope of getting back near to the universal Beta nirvana. With maybe different codecs for different cameras/manufacturers, but at least with everybody working with the same physical media. (And one compatible with modern computers!) And with NLEs able to mix codecs on the timeline.

alpi69

04-20-2007, 11:41 PM

Wouldn´t that be great! Both using the same medium! Unfortunately that seems not how big corporations work. They always try to make something different and then fight and argue about what is the better technology (bcause they invested so much into their own).
To us it would sure make sense. Buy a card and use it everywhere. Somehow like we had it in the DV-tape times. Go to a store, buy a card that works in any cam and shoot. I can imagine Canon to follow SONY there. But Panasonic? I hope Panasonic doesn´t the mistake and again puts the workflow last in their priority. Now that everyone is tapeless and P2 is not so revolutionary anymore (but boy do I love it) they need to not only make a camera that works, but also offer solutions (or find partners who do) that make editing and archivation easier.

jake stutheit

04-20-2007, 11:56 PM

Sadly, i dont think well see 1 format acroos the board anytime soon. Big companies love their propietary formats. Especially Sony.

cici

04-21-2007, 12:13 AM

Panasonic made such a big mistake with the P2 pricing.

Same situation here in Switzerland:

it's TOO LATE now for pricedrop: The TV-stations are being already changed from SD broadcast to HD broadcast since 2006 and I know about stations that changed from Panasonic equipment to Sony (the ENTIRE studio equipment!). Why? Just because the P2 cards are/were too expensive.

Panasonic could have sold dozens or hundreds of cards PER TV CHANNEL, so the costs for development could have been gained too instead of only selling to smaller customers in much smaller quantities.

Sell 1 million cards for 100 bucks or 10'000 for 1000 bucks....

These channels now are entirely Sony and will stay so for the next decade(s). They will buy ALL their equipment now from Sony.... think of the broadcast-vans!!! Or ANY device in the studio..... it's now all Sony. THAT is the big mistake from Panasonic.

P2 could have been a chance for Panasonic to even change Sony studios to Panasonic studios: as they HAD TO buy all equipment new, Panasonic could have made a good price for the P2 cards and should have invested in a good promotion directly for the TV stations.

I could personally attend one channel (there are dozens in small Switzerland) that changed location and equipement 180 degrees for a new era.... guess how: HD by XDCAM ..... :( Their workflow is with professional disc and they use all discs also directly for storage. They told me that they would have prefered the Panasonic workflow and would have bought some hundred P2 cards, but the price was too high.

This year the biggest swiss cablenet server will go digital and HD, so the swiss TV stations are about to change since 2006 from SD to HD.

Too late for pricedrop.....

harddrive

04-21-2007, 01:38 AM

Sadly, i dont think well see 1 format acroos the board anytime soon. Big companies love their propietary formats. Especially Sony.
That's certainly been true in the past, but now we seem to be seeing the opposite. SxS doesn't seem to be a Sony propietary format, but rather one in conjunction with Sandisk - see http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3770 . Is there any reason why any other manufacturer can't make use of it?

And if Panasonic don't adopt it, what do they do? Carry on with P2, at a price disadvantage, and less and less natively supported by the computer industry? Trouble for them is that ExpressCard is THE obvious successor to Cardbus and P2.

Alpi69 brings up the question of what Canon will now do, and to that we must wonder about JVC as well. If they both bring out SxS products, what happens then?

SPZ

04-21-2007, 02:27 AM

That's certainly been true in the past, but now we seem to be seeing the opposite. SxS doesn't seem to be a Sony propietary format, but rather one in conjunction with Sandisk - see http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3770 . Is there any reason why any other manufacturer can't make use of it?

And if Panasonic don't adopt it, what do they do? Carry on with P2, at a price disadvantage, and less and less natively supported by the computer industry? Trouble for them is that ExpressCard is THE obvious successor to Cardbus and P2.

Alpi69 brings up the question of what Canon will now do, and to that we must wonder about JVC as well. If they both bring out SxS products, what happens then?

Here's what I believe- and I may be totally wrong with this- P2 doesn't need to be as expensive as it is now, and doesn't need to follow its current architecture. Why? Hoodmann's response to P2.

Hoodman is making a P2 card with CF technology inside- using one flash memory card in a P2 closing. What our P2 cameras will see is another p2 card, and they'll not see the internal architecture.

We know that PCMIA can support 32bit transfer speeds up to 640mb per second. So the question is- can panasonic create an internal P2 architecture that is as fast as the current speed, troughput? Can they make this cheaper? They can do an internal raid with only two SD cards, and get a troughput of 400mb per second or more. Or use just a single fast SD card that could handle 300mb per second or more. I don't know if this is possible or not. But this theoretically is possible.

How fast will the Hoodman card be?

I don't think Panasonic will change the P2 casing. The internal structure can and will evolve, IMHO. The new sony and sandisks format will indeed put the pressure for cheaper P2. And P2 technology can evolve to to take this challenge. Don't forget Panasonic as got a full range, from low end to medium high end cameras using the format...And Sony only announced one...

EDIT- Also, the only reason one would need faster than 640mb/s would be to record either uncompressed or very low compression signals. For DVCPRO HD, XDCAM Mpeg 2 or even AVCINTRA or (why not?) Apple Pro 4:2:2, there's no such need. The current 640mb/s speed is good if you want to directly edit from the card- Essential for fast news broadcasts, but not that much important for anything else.

Green Hornet

04-21-2007, 07:42 AM

Panasonic could make differnt types of P2 cases.
They have established the ability to raid memory.

They could raid SD, or Mini SD, or even Xd etc.
Then the customer can use the memory of their choice via having various P2 configurations where one would be able to insert the defined type of memory as desired.

They could make a non raided Compact flash case or other formats as well.
That way Panasonic does not have to be in the business of selling memory,
they can be in the business of selling P2 cases.

Why should panasonic care what type of memory you use. If you need a case to put into the camera, the profit can be made on the case.

Most people will need at least 3 cards (or cases). Currently it is expensive to buy
(3) P2 cards, but if they priced just the case, without actual memory,
Most people can buy 5 or more cases at a time, and most likely would.

Jan_Crittenden

04-21-2007, 08:20 AM

Barry_Green

04-21-2007, 10:13 AM

Buy a card and use it everywhere. Somehow like we had it in the DV-tape times. Go to a store, buy a card that works in any cam and shoot. I can imagine Canon to follow SONY there. But Panasonic?
That's what AVC-HD is all about. Industry-standard, non-proprietary media supported by all the manufacturers. You can use off-the-shelf SD cards from Kingston or Lexar or Panasonic or whoever. You can use regular mini-DVD discs. And all the major manufacturers (except JVC) are signed on to the coalition -- Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Sharp, Samsung, Sanyo, everybody.

Barry_Green

04-21-2007, 10:20 AM

less and less natively supported by the computer industry? Trouble for them is that ExpressCard is THE obvious successor to Cardbus and P2.
ExpressCard is the obvious successor to Cardbus, yes. But does that make it an obvious successor to P2? Panasonic controls the future of P2 integration, they make readers and adapters of all types. And Duel offers an adapter to integrate into ExpressCard systems. I really don't get this attitude of "oooh, expresscard is common in PCs so that means P2 is obsolete" mentality that Sony's trying to push. It's ridiculous.

Besides, who's to say that Panasonic won't design the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component? As in, look at how a miniSD card works -- it's a small card that can be plugged into a fullsize SD adapter.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208081

Why couldn't Panasonic do something like that? The answer is: of course they could. They could make ExpressCard media that fits in a P2-sized shell for use in the roughly 50,000 P2 systems out there (yes, about 3x as many P2 systems as there are XDCAM systems) and have a removable ExpressCard core that could be used in the new laptops.

Have they announced such a system? No, but they'd be stupid to not be thinking about it. I suggested it to them months ago, and I'm sure they'd already thought of it on their own. If the CardBus form factor becomes an issue, and ExpressCard becomes an advantage, they'll be able to migrate very easily.

Alpi69 brings up the question of what Canon will now do, and to that we must wonder about JVC as well. If they both bring out SxS products, what happens then?
Canon won't go SxS, they're going AVC-HD. Standard SD memory cards, or mini-DVD discs. JVC hasn't expressed any interest in going to any type of memory-card recording yet.

Tim Le

04-21-2007, 11:28 AM

Besides, who's to say that Panasonic won't design the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component? As in, look at how a miniSD card works -- it's a small card that can be plugged into a fullsize SD adapter.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208081

Why couldn't Panasonic do something like that? The answer is: of course they could. They could make ExpressCard media that fits in a P2-sized shell for use in the roughly 50,000 P2 systems out there (yes, about 3x as many P2 systems as there are XDCAM systems) and have a removable ExpressCard core that could be used in the new laptops.

Have they announced such a system? No, but they'd be stupid to not be thinking about it.
They won't do it because Panasonic has already invested too much in convincing a lot of people that P2 is the future and is here to stay. Making an ExpressCard-to-P2 adapter would basically be saying the opposite. Going forward, it wouldn't even make sense to make P2 equipment anymore because you're putting a faster media (ExpressCards) into a slower interface (Cardbus-P2). So the repercussions for the P2 system would be huge if Panasonic did something like that!

P2 is not looking good at this point when even Barry says Panasonic would be stupid for not looking into an ExpressCard to P2 adapter.

Barry_Green

04-21-2007, 01:28 PM

P2 is not looking good? To who? Looks pretty good to the over 300 broadcast organizations using it. Looks good to the major networks who are already using it. Looks awfully good to sports programs at the major universities (like Clemson) that are already using it. Looks pretty good to the over 35,000 customers who are using HVXs worldwide. Considering there are three P2 camcorders to every XDCAM camera, I'd say it's looking just fine.

They won't do it because Panasonic has already invested too much in convincing a lot of people that P2 is the future and is here to stay.
It is. And it is. I don't get what you're saying. The P2 form factor stays the same, it stays 100% compatible, and it just adds more capability. How is that a problem?

Making an ExpressCard-to-P2 adapter would basically be saying the opposite
How? I mean, if you were saying that a company was making a blu-ray camcorder and preaching that it was the best format and it was here to stay and it was a better solution than solid-state, and then they suddenly started making a solid-state system too, then I could see your point. But to continue to use solid-state memory recording in a 100% compatible system, and (to pacify those who want an expresscard solution) to offer a system that can work in both existing cardbus or future expresscard systems, that works 100% compatibly with every piece of existing P2 gear, and that all future P2 gear stays fully compatible with all prior gear -- sorry, I don't see that as a problem at all.

Going forward, it wouldn't even make sense to make P2 equipment anymore because you're putting a faster media (ExpressCards) into a slower interface (Cardbus-P2).
Okay, this makes no sense whatsoever. Yes ExpressCard's interface is faster than CardBus's -- so? The underlying memory is nowhere near fast enough to take advantage of the speed CardBus is capable of. CardBus handles 133 megabytes per second; a RAIDed P2 card runs at 80 megabytes per second. Just because someone puts memory in an ExpressCard form factor, that doesn't mean that it's going to be faster! There is absolutely nothing incongruous about putting an expresscard insert in a PC Card form factor.

So the repercussions for the P2 system would be huge if Panasonic did something like that!
I simply cannot connect with what you're talking about. I'm saying that they would retain 100% backward and forward compatibility. How would there be *any* repercussions?

Repercussions come about when you sell someone a proprietary-media system like XDCAM, and then you abandon it to come out with an incompatible system like XDCAM-HD, and then do you abandon it to come out with two incompatible systems like XDCAM-EX and XDCAM-MPEG422? What about when Sony inevitably migrates to AVC -- what happens to all your existing, non-AVC-compliant XDCAM equipment? Repercussions come about when you ask customers to abandon their existing equipment infrastructure. That's absolutely the OPPOSITE approach Panasonic is taking. When Sony adds a new format like their 50-megabit MPEG-422 system, it requires new hardware that makes your existing hardware incompatible. When Panasonic adds a new format like AVC-Intra, it works with all your existing hardware -- your cards, your readers, everything. They provide software updates and card slots to support that future expansion. If they were to do what I'm suggesting (an ExpressCard slot inside a CardBus housing) they would be providing 100% compatibility backwards and forwards throughout their product line.

I just don't fathom how someone could twist that into being a "bad thing".

harddrive

04-21-2007, 01:44 PM

ExpressCard is the obvious successor to Cardbus, yes. But does that make it an obvious successor to P2? .......... I really don't get this attitude of "oooh, expresscard is common in PCs so that means P2 is obsolete" mentality that Sony's trying to push. It's ridiculous.
I can't speak for Sony, but earlier I posted: " ........whereas ExpressCard and CF are still very current architectures in new equipment, then Cardbus (on which P2 is based) is obsolescent. And note very carefully the use of the word "obsolescent", NOT "obsolete". They mean very different things. P2 is not obsolete, but Cardbus *IS* obsolescent.

And in the past, being able to read P2 cards with just a computer, no drives, no separate boxes, decks, etc has been (rightly, IMO) hailed as a big plus point for the format. But now that accolade has been snatched by Sony, it becomes "ridiculous" to see it as an advantage. Hmmm.

Besides, who's to say that Panasonic won't design the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component?...........Why couldn't Panasonic do something like that? The answer is: of course they could.
I really, really hope they do. That would obviously be very good news for all the existing owners of P2 cameras. (ExpressCards being inherently much cheaper, apart from fitting directly into modern PCs.) But what about such as myself, yet to upgrade? The obvious question then becomes why buy a P2 camera, if I can get an ExpressCard one instead? All else equal, of course.

Ok, I may want an HPX500, or an HPC2000 for the camera front end, media aside, but it now makes me wish for the same camera with 4/5 SxS slots instead of P2 slots. Having to use adaptors, a separate one per slot, may work, but how much simpler to just plug the SxS cards directly into the camera!

Canon won't go SxS, they're going AVC-HD. Standard SD memory cards, or mini-DVD discs. JVC hasn't expressed any interest in going to any type of memory-card recording yet.
Surely AVC-HD could be as easily recorded to SxS as SD? And SD cards are also far cheaper than P2, as well as being directed supported by many modern computers.

And in the last brochure I received from JVC I'm sure they mentioned an expectation to extend into solid state in due course. The SxS announcement may have brought that forward. Who knows?

Simon Wyndham

04-21-2007, 01:48 PM

Considering there are three P2 camcorders to every XDCAM camera

Bary, ever heard the saying about statistics? Comparing P2 including the HVX200, a prosumer camera, which is a much larger market than full size shoulder mounted cameras, to the current XDCAM is rather misleading to say the least. The real comparision will be when the EX is released. Then we'll see how rate of sales compare like for like.

and then do you abandon it to come out with two incompatible systems like XDCAM-EX and XDCAM-MPEG422?

Woah there Barry. A NLE that can read DVCpro cannot necessarily read DVCpro50 or DVCpro100. Now Panasonic have also got AVC Intra with solid plans to release even more versions of that in the future! So I'm afraid that argument about Sony introducing codecs doesn't wash. At least they are using a common compression scheme.

When Panasonic adds a new format like AVC-Intra, it works with all your existing hardware -- your cards, your readers, everything.

The NLE still needs to be reprogrammed to take a new codec just like additional XDCAM codecs. Whats the point of being able to transfer your footage if you can't actually edit it?

inevitably migrates to AVC

They won't. They don't have a need to as it doesn't offer any major advantages other than making P2 card storage go further. Apart from that there aren't many other tangible benefits to it.

David Jimerson

04-21-2007, 02:05 PM

I don't get why this would be a threat to anyone who owns and operates an HVX. Your HVX isn't going to disappear when this hits the market. It won't make it work any less than it does now . . .

Scharky's on the right track -- this is leading away from tape/disc-based formats and into solid state, which is where things SHOULD be leading.

And if it's a sign that a large manufacturer is starting to "get it," then this nothing but good news.

Tim Le

04-21-2007, 02:13 PM

Barry, I'm not trying to twist anything. I'm just looking at this as simple as possible. If Panasonic puts ExpressCards into a P2 housing, common sense says why bother with P2 at all? Why not just go straight to ExpressCards if they are so good that Panasonic would even make an adapter to go to P2? The only good this would do is maintain backwards compatibility with existing P2 gear. Going forward, it would be insanity to keep buying P2 cameras and have adapters for every ExpressCard you have just to interface with P2. Just make the dang thing ExpressCards to begin with!

This is my point about repercussions. If Panasonic did this, they would be indirectly causing the downfall of their own P2 system or at least it would be creating doubt in the marketplace about their commitment to P2. This would be a major change in course for Panasonic.

Barry_Green

04-21-2007, 02:42 PM

Woah there Barry. A NLE that can read DVCpro cannot necessarily read DVCpro50 or DVCpro100. Now Panasonic have also got AVC Intra with solid plans to release even more versions of that in the future! So I'm afraid that argument about Sony introducing codecs doesn't wash. At least they are using a common compression scheme.
An -- dare I say it -- obsolescent compression scheme. But you missed the point -- I was talking about hardware. XDCAM-HD needs different hardware (different decks) than XDCAM did. XDCAM-422 needs different hardware than XDCAM-HD does. P2 is the same hardware everywhere.

Barry_Green

04-21-2007, 02:44 PM

They won't. They don't have a need to as it doesn't offer any major advantages other than making P2 card storage go further. Apart from that there aren't many other tangible benefits to it.
Would you care to bet? Sony will absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, definitely move to AVC (or JPEG-2000 or RedCode). I don't know when, maybe within three years, but they absolutely will abandon MPEG-2 and move to AVC.

Barry_Green

04-21-2007, 02:49 PM

If Panasonic puts ExpressCards into a P2 housing, common sense says why bother with P2 at all?
Because there are some 50,000 P2 camcorders out there already. With massive installations at news stations and networks. Why would they abandon all that?

Why not just go straight to ExpressCards if they are so good that Panasonic would even make an adapter to go to P2?
There's nothing about ExpressCard that's superior over the CardBus factor of P2 except that it's a little smaller, and that laptops are migrating to it. The speed advantage is a red herring; CardBus cards aren't anywhere near fast enough to max out the speed of the underlying RAM.

The only good this would do is maintain backwards compatibility with existing P2 gear. Going forward, it would be insanity to keep buying P2 cameras and have adapters for every ExpressCard you have just to interface with P2. Just make the dang thing ExpressCards to begin with!
Sony can do that, because they're three years behind the times. Panasonic doesn't have to, and probably wouldn't, because they've already got some 50,000 existing installed camcorders out there. But if they do, it'd probably involve some manner of "bridge" product (just like how the HVX has tape in it; it's a bridge product for consumers to migrate from one format to the other). Maybe 10 years from now everyone will be on ExpressCard, and the adapters will prove to have migrated people over. I don't know. All I do know is: the system works very well right now, there are no limitations by it not being in ExpressCard, there are already adapters to allow ExpressCard-only laptops to work with it, and it's backward-and-forward compatible. So again -- where's the problem?

If Panasonic did this, they would be indirectly causing the downfall of their own P2 system or at least it would be creating doubt in the marketplace about their commitment to P2. This would be a major change in course for Panasonic.
Well, let's just agree to disagree then. I say it's no change in course whatsoever. Solid state is solid state. The difference is that Panasonic wouldn't be abandoning their early adopters as well as their existing network and broadcast clients. They can add future capability and compatibility *without* hosing themselves or their customers. I don't see how that could possibly be interpreted as a bad thing.

Simon Wyndham

04-21-2007, 02:54 PM

Would you care to bet? Sony will absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, definitely move to AVC (or JPEG-2000 or RedCode). I don't know when, maybe within three years, but they absolutely will abandon MPEG-2 and move to AVC.

You reckon Sony, based on previous track records, will go to Redcode or JPEG2000? Sony will go to another codec at some point. Thats a bit like predicting that it might snow in some country somewhere during the winter season.

But its funny because Sony are predicting that Panasonic will move in a different direction too. But I guess you'll tell me that I'm wrong and you're right. Fine Barry, I've had enough of this silly topic of discussion.

harddrive

04-21-2007, 03:03 PM

Sony will absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, definitely move to AVC (or JPEG-2000 or RedCode). I don't know when, maybe within three years, but they absolutely will abandon MPEG-2 and move to AVC.
Move to AVC, or move to JPEG2000?

JPEG2000 makes a lot of sense (as does RedCode) as it is wavelet based. (So problems exhibit as a slight softening, rather than blockiness as with DVCProHD, MPEG2 and AVC.) But AVC? I don't see Sony moving to that, surely it is too interim a step with a wavelet system in view, and Red and Grass Valley going with such schemes? Maybe JPEG2000 may be stretching technology a little at the moment, so sticking with MPEG2 for now, then moving straight to JPEG2000 would be sensible. And I'd guess within a lot less than 3 years.

But what the codec is, and what it's recorded to are two totally separate issues. Whatever codec is chosen, surely there is now more sense for *FUTURE* cameras to record it to SxS than P2?

Tim Le

04-21-2007, 03:10 PM

There's nothing about ExpressCard that's superior over the CardBus factor of P2 except that it's a little smaller, and that laptops are migrating to it.
IMO, there is one big advantage: ExpressCard has the potential for being more widely adopted since it is an open IT standard and the ExpressCards are not anything special. The more people adopt it, the cheaper everything gets. JVC or Canon could adopt ExpressCards if they wanted to. Someone could build cheap P2 Store type devices for ExpressCards if they wanted to. There are so many possibilities. I think even you recognize that because you want Panasonic to make an ExpressCard to P2 adapter.

The problem lies in the person who still needs to buy a camera. Do you invest in P2 or an open ExpressCard format who has more potential to be widely adopted? It's the old Betamax vs. VHS debate. Or the the SD card versus Memory Stick debate. Personally, I'd go with the open format.

Sony can do that, because they're three years behind the times. Panasonic doesn't have to, and probably wouldn't, because they've already got some 50,000 existing installed camcorders out there.
Barry, you can call Sony behind the times if you want, but I think it was a good decision. And I have no particular love for Sony because I applaud Canon and JVC for doing the same thing. They all stuck to MPEG-2 because it's an affordable, space-efficient scheme for achieving HD right now.

Panasonic, on the other hand, was really AHEAD of their time. It's been 3 long years and only now are we seeing 16 GB P2 cards and the Cineporter, is still not shipping. It's like they made one big giant leap but then fell into a vat of molasses. Meanwhile, the competition like Sony, Canon and JVC have working slowly but diligently on the less glamorous MPEG-2 and all the while laying the groundwork for the next big step. This kind of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare and we all know how that turned out.

So really, I could argue that Sony, Canon and JVC (all MPEG-2 adopters) aren't behind the times, but are really at the right time.

I also agree with harddrive. I think we should skip AVC all together and go straight to wavelet like REDCODE. Maybe Canon will do that, LOL. They've been acting like a rabid, unpredictable animal lately so who knows. They have the sensor and lens technology and the pendulum is swinging back to larger sensors. Canon is more than capable of building a camera that kills the XDCAM-EX if they wanted to. Hmmm...maybe that's why the lens went from Canon to Fujinon? Interesting....

harddrive

04-21-2007, 03:46 PM

There's nothing about ExpressCard that's superior over the CardBus factor of P2 except that it's a little smaller, and that laptops are migrating to it.
To add to Tims last post, then I'd say that laptops migrating to it is pretty significant in itself. And my understanding is that it should inherently be much cheaper than P2 like for like as the underlying design is far more straightforward. Isn't that enough!?!

Not only does that mean less $/GB, but also that the underlying cost of the card itself is far cheaper. That's pretty important for some users who are looking for the cheapest possible card, even if it's low capacity. The P2 model seems to be working on keeping the actual cost of the card range (very roughly) static, whilst increasing capacity, and discontinuing the lower size cards. That translates to a lower cost/GB, but not any really low cost cards, albeit small in size.

SxS pricing should more closely follow the model for SD, CF etc. (They don't need the raid complexities etc.) Last time I looked, you could get a 16GB pro CF card for about £160, but still get a 1GB in the same range for about £16.

John Trent

04-21-2007, 04:20 PM

Regarding the P2 price drop - "Now, instead insanely, ludicrously expensive, they're just really expensive!" I'm not the only one that thinks this, this quote is from Mike Curtis of hdforindies.

I love the Panasonic look above all others. I want to buy Panasonic. But if I want Panasonic HD I have to spend $ 899.95 for a P2 card that will only save 16 minutes of footage before I go running for a laptop, or I can buy a Firestore for $1,829.95....or I can buy a $2.59 tape and another companies HDV cam.

I can't afford Panasonic's version of HD and it's really frustrating. There seems to be this huge chasm between their 4:3 SD cam and their P2 cam. The cost of the HVX isn't the problem, it's the MEDIA. I could buy the HVX and shoot SD on tape and wait for the media to really become affordable, but by the time that happens there'll be an A or B model with less noise, longer lens, and maybe AVC-Intra built in to double the P2 cards time. I want to buy the HVX, but because of the P2 cards I won't. It's that simple. Let me repeat that, I'm not buying this camera ONLY because of the media. I, and many others, are falling into this chasm. The Canon A1's popularity attests to this.

I hope Barry's right and Panasonic listens and makes an AVCHD DVX (I'd buy it) and makes "the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component" (hey, wait, that sounds good, I'd buy that too). THEN PANASONIC WOULD HAVE GIVEN ME CHOICES....OPTIONS. But that's a future that probably won't happen. Given the choice between the DVX and the Canon XL2 most chose the DVX. The Canon A1 is just a HD XL2. Nobody really likes the way it looks :evil: it's just so much less expensive to shoot with. Take the expensive and time constraining P2 out of the equation and I'd bet most would've bought Panasonic.

My choice is neither buy an DVX (when SD is not what I want) and get the great Panasonic film-look, or get a long GOP HDV camera with a look I don't like, but I get 16:9 and HD.

I'm underwhelmed....and wishing I could afford to shoot film.

taormina

04-21-2007, 04:37 PM

Hey John,

No offense, but you have a warped understanding of P2 workflow. I've shot everything I've done with one 4gb P2 card and a laptop to offload.

Try shooting film sometime. My last 35mm short was done entirely with 200 foot short ends. We were changing the mags every...well 2 minutes!!!!!

And we shot like 8000 feet!!!!! Just like P2. Only P2 is getting better and bigger.

David Jimerson

04-21-2007, 04:47 PM

John --

Don't think of P2 cards as "media" -- they're not. They're removable parts of the camera itself They're not tapes and they're not meant to be used like tapes.

Two 16GB cards will retail for about $1500 at first and will drop thereafter. Add that to the $5100 retail of the HVX, and you're at about $6600 (less than the HVX retailed for alone at first) -- and you never need to worry about having tape again.

Together, it's 32 minutes of full-bore 1080, but it's 80 minutes of 720p/24pN.

When the 32 gig cards hit, they'll probably street (at least some sales reps said) at $1300 at first, so to buy an HVX and two 32s would be about $7700 -- but you can record 64 minutes of full 1080 and 160 minutes of 720p/24pN. I can't imagine that woudn't be enough for almost any purpose.

To say nothing of the convenience of the workflow. It's hard to describe it fully to someone who's never used it, but imagine never needing to log or capture another tape, to have random access to your clips immediately, to be able to delete clips you don't want right away, to be able to organize and manage your media, in-camera, in ways you've never thought about doing.

Then, imagine later on, when you want to retrieve a clip you shot long before, and then simply going to your archive and doing a search on a term and having it instantly, rather than having to find a tape, wind it to the clip you want, and recapture it real-time (putting wear on the tape, incidentally).

So, is $6600 too much to pay for the look you know you want, the unmatched capability of the HVX (the variable frame rates alone are the deal-closer for most), and the convenience of working with P2 instead of tape?

Up to you. But think about it.

harddrive

04-22-2007, 03:50 AM

Don't think of P2 cards as "media" -- they're not. They're removable parts of the camera itself They're not tapes and they're not meant to be used like tapes.

To say nothing of the convenience of the workflow. It's hard to describe it fully to someone who's never used it, but imagine ...........
David, I don't need to imagine. I trialled the SD P2 camera well before the HVX200 came out, and became well aware of the benefits you describe. (Plus lower power consumption than disc cameras.) But my main clients demand the ability for me to be able to hand over media immediately after shooting for them to take away for immediate use, and that was where P2 came unstuck. The P2 store was not an answer, and I got fed up with spending more time tracking cards down than filming. So hence we've stayed with tape for the time being, augmented with a Firestore now, to at least retain in some situations some of the tapeless features I liked about P2.

Those comments may apply much less to operations which are more self contained (ie one man!), I appreciate that, but I'm sure a lot of readers WILL be able to identify with them.

Far from knocking P2 per se, I WANT the benefits of solid state for exactly the reasons you describe, but free of the restrictions that P2 currently imposes. And a move to SxS would go a long way towards making that possible. A card of 32GB costing $2,000 (say) may be just what some people want. For many other people 8 4GB cards costing $200 each may be far more useful. For the reasons above, a range of card sizes and prices is more viable with SxS (or CF, SD etc) than P2. And if SxS is generally far cheaper per GB than P2 can be, surely that must be a good thing?

I appreciate people with current commercial interests in P2 can hardly publicly agree with what such as myself as TimLe are saying, but I can only hope they are taking it in in private. And the arguments about the actual physical memory should not be confused with wider points about individual cameras, workflow, codecs etc.

taormina

04-22-2007, 09:00 AM

HVXguy

04-22-2007, 09:34 AM

I have many self-powered Firewire 800 drives I bring on location for those type A clients. For what they use to pay for a box of BetaSP tapes they get the drive. I can transfer an 8 gig card in 4 minutes. At the end of the day I clone the drive.
Something easily accomplished while striking. The client has the footage they can edit at their office. I have a copy of the footage so I can refer to it. I tell them - "It takes less time to transfer the footage and clone a drive then it would take to rewind a box of BetaSP or HDV tapes." Ironically enough, many of the clients that hire me have an HDV camera and in many cases they were disappointed with the image quality of HDV. Many of these clients have gone on and purchased an HVX after they saw in action the P2 workflow.

Flash Beaver

04-22-2007, 12:15 PM

IMO, there is one big advantage: ExpressCard has the potential for being more widely adopted since it is an open IT standard and the ExpressCards are not anything special. The more people adopt it, the cheaper everything gets. JVC or Canon could adopt ExpressCards if they wanted to. Someone could build cheap P2 Store type devices for ExpressCards if they wanted to. There are so many possibilities. I think even you recognize that because you want Panasonic to make an ExpressCard to P2 adapter.

The problem lies in the person who still needs to buy a camera. Do you invest in P2 or an open ExpressCard format who has more potential to be widely adopted? It's the old Betamax vs. VHS debate. Or the the SD card versus Memory Stick debate. Personally, I'd go with the open format.

The express card has a nice little form factor. But my big question here is, if I have a P2 system, and a direct adapter is made to put express cards right into the p2 slot of my camera. And I'm getting the exact same performance. Where is the problem in this?

I buy a whole handful of express cards, a couple p2-express adapters that fit the express cards NICELY, and I still get my data at the end of the project.

My HVX is still my HVX. It will still only put out a certain amount of information to the card per second. Whether I have a camera that recorded DVCPRO100 or AVC the data is still being laid down at the speed it can handle, to a card thats data will be dumped shortly onto a more permanent storage device.

I'll wipe my express card, stick it back in the adapter in my HVX and carry on.

We got one of the very early DVCPRO decks back in the mid 90's. I remember it well for three reasons. First, we needed the TBC control module that allowed us to set levels direct from the deck. Second, we were dealing with someone in Japan to get some EEPROMS needed because we wanted to be ready if and when someone handed us a DVCAM tape. It wasn't quite there yet, but we wanted to be ready.

And most important I got a half dozen of these cute yellow Mini-DV to DVCPRO adapters from Panasonic that allowed me to edit directly from mini-DV and pre-read right onto D2.

Either way, life continued, nothing earth-shattering (except for $$$ savings) happened, and the gear lived out its course in the edit bay.

So I do not see this being the Betamax vs VHS debate. You couldn't load a betamax tape into a vhs player. But I don't see anything stopping an express card slipping into a p2 slot in the near future.

harddrive

04-22-2007, 12:34 PM

harddrive: I don't see why you couldn't transfer all the P2 data to a folder on a laptop and then burn a couple DVDs of the footage to give to your customers. Or buy a hard drive (as your name implies) for $100, put it into your price, and just give it to them at the end of the shoot.
OK, fair questions, but you are assuming a particular type of shoot, and those assumptions don't hold for me, and I suspect a good few others.

Just imagine a scenario with a major broadcaster say, and a big media event, maybe going on for several days. Much of the coverage is OB based, but the broadcaster may deploy a number of ENG crews. They may be required to film interviews, reporter stand ups, vox pops or whatever, and many throughout the day. Each segment may only last a couple of minutes, but the client may wish to put a clip on air as soon as possible. Apart from the undesirability of having to carry a laptop around a busy stadium, (in addition to everything else) the time delay of having to boot it up, copy the files, then burn the DVD before the material can be taken for playout would be totally unacceptable. Similar considerations apply to, say, news in many cases. I'm not saying what you describe wouldn't work, but frankly just ejecting a tape and handing to runner is a great deal simpler........

It seems like everyone against P2 always has a workflow issue of some sort. They'll throw up a roadblock to the whole process. I don't see how the SxS cards will change this for you - you will still have tons of data to hand to your customers - are you planning on giving them the SxS cards?
You have to realise that whilst P2 may suit your workflow, others have different workflows, and for them P2 throws up it's own roadblocks.

As regards the second question, then I suppose the answer is yes, but there is more to it than that. Carrying on with the scenario above, then with a DV25 codec 4 GB cards are likely to be more than big enough - 16 minutes run time. In fact, 2 GB cards would probably do here - most interviews of this type probably don't last more than 8 minutes.

Which comes back to what was said earlier. Each P2 card is quite expensive in itself, regardless of the amount of memory. That makes small capacity cards very expensive per GB relative to large capacity ones - if available. The same economics don't hold for SD, CF and I'm expecting SxS - CF is available in a very wide range of capacities, with the price being largely proportionate to size.

Your workflow may be well suited with a single (albeit expensive) 32GB card. The workflow I described would be far better suited with 16 2 GB ones. With CF, and I'm assuming SxS as well, that would be similar pricing to one single larger card. With P2 it won't be, even if a wide range of sizes was made.

And what about HD? I don't want to go into the whole codec debate, except that here these 2GB cards will still record about 5-6 minutes of XDCAM (may still be enough?), but now only 2 minutes of DVCProHD. Not nearly enough, and 24p is not likely to be acceptable for sport or news.

Taormina - if P2 works as is for you now, then that's fine. But please accept that others who aren't happy with it may have valid reasons, not just negativity. And for future ranges of cameras, can I just leave you with the question that why should they be P2, not SxS based? What advantage does P2 give over SxS in media terms for the future, all else equal? I wonder how things would be different had Panasonic been the one to first announce the SxS concept, as P2 MkII........?

harddrive

04-22-2007, 01:00 PM

The express card has a nice little form factor. But my big question here is, if I have a P2 system, and a direct adapter is made to put express cards right into the p2 slot of my camera. And I'm getting the exact same performance. Where is the problem in this?
For you, absolutely none at all, and nobody has said there was. For current HVX owners, that enables an easier input to modern laptops and possibly lower cost memory, without a change of camera. No problem at all.

But as you quoted TimLe saying: "The problem lies in the person who still needs to buy a camera.". For everybody who hasn't got an HVX, but may be looking to buy a new camera soon, then why should we have to worry about adaptors? Surely just being able to plug the SxS card straight into camera is far more elegant? It may not be the decidng factor in which camera to buy, but surely it is significant?

And for any manufacturer, and not just of cameras, it's the people who are looking to buy soon, not those who have already bought, who most need influencing!

alpi69

04-22-2007, 01:22 PM

Hi,

I haven't read the full thread here but the last couple talking about the price and complexity of the card and that that is no longer a necessity. First the ptice has taken a totaly leap frog here with the intro of the soon to be delivered 16 GB card in May at $900. Secondly if you design you system for today, it will only be good for today. Keep in mind that you need around 30% above your topspeede requirement to word for the data rate, and that will give you real time transfer. That is what the systems can do today. There are and always will be systems that push the edge, perhaps next year the transfer path could double in band with so instaed of 1 GB a minute it can be 2 GB per minute. The P2 card will be there and able to do this. At a transfer of 640 Mbps, it will be a while before the systems catch up with the speed of the P2 card.

The P2 card was designed with the entire workflow in mind.

Hope that helps you all understand our decision.

Best,

Jan

Sure, Jan, and I again want to say I am overly impressed and happy with the performance of my P2 camera. And I got 3 partner-productions to buy a HVX so we could work closer together - and we do and it works beautifully (although they struggle with their FCP vs my Edius system).

But looking at this new SONY cam and seeing many clients of mine investing into XDcam there is one major flaw in P2: pricing. I agree with Barry there will be an Expresscard-Adapter if need be, so that´s not an issue to me. But I see my investment losing. When I share footage my workflow is in trouble, because the others are suddenly in XDCam. Why? Because they want to use $ 40 per disk not $400, let alone 900. So after having invested in P2 I now anyway have to invest in a XDCam drive to get my material into the market.
I understand Panasonic is a company that looks at profit, but IMO SONY plays it smarter by not tying our budgets in memory. P2 could have been the way to go and Panasonic should have read the market when there was an uproar about the pricing. Had they started dropping the prices gradually (10% per month or so) and ended up where the price is now they would have shown a tendency. Now the tendency was unclear, especially since Panasnic could not fulfill their roadmap with P2 capacities.
So all I am saying: Pana read the market. You totally understood our needs with the HVX which does all we ask for (ok, var. framerates at 1080p and a good LCD are missing). But please help us create a P2 market. It is 5 minutes before 12 if you want to P2 to succeed longterm in Europe.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 02:14 PM

David, I don't need to imagine. I trialled the SD P2 camera well before the HVX200 came out, and became well aware of the benefits you describe. (Plus lower power consumption than disc cameras.) But my main clients demand the ability for me to be able to hand over media immediately after shooting for them to take away for immediate use, and that was where P2 came unstuck. The P2 store was not an answer, and I got fed up with spending more time tracking cards down than filming. So hence we've stayed with tape for the time being, augmented with a Firestore now, to at least retain in some situations some of the tapeless features I liked about P2.

Those comments may apply much less to operations which are more self contained (ie one man!), I appreciate that, but I'm sure a lot of readers WILL be able to identify with them.

Far from knocking P2 per se, I WANT the benefits of solid state for exactly the reasons you describe, but free of the restrictions that P2 currently imposes. And a move to SxS would go a long way towards making that possible. A card of 32GB costing $2,000 (say) may be just what some people want. For many other people 8 4GB cards costing $200 each may be far more useful. For the reasons above, a range of card sizes and prices is more viable with SxS (or CF, SD etc) than P2. And if SxS is generally far cheaper per GB than P2 can be, surely that must be a good thing?

I appreciate people with current commercial interests in P2 can hardly publicly agree with what such as myself as TimLe are saying, but I can only hope they are taking it in in private. And the arguments about the actual physical memory should not be confused with wider points about individual cameras, workflow, codecs etc.

Nice (undeserved) swipe, but you're talking about something completely different from what I was describing. I was addressing John Trent's comments only, regarding the affordability of the cards. As I said above, an HVX and two 16GB cards -- heck, two 32GB cards if they come in at $1300 street -- still puts you at or under the price of the HD200, with all the benefits of the HVX.

But there are workarounds to the issue you speak of. You can arrange for your client to rent cards to which you shoot and hand them over (which they may be willing to do once you explain the benefits the HVX has over all the other HDV cams). You can also deliver on hard drive. Every situation is different, but you're working with data and data alone, so the options are actually a lot more abundant and elegant than merely limiting yourself to the idea of handing over a tape at the end of the day.

Which is not to say that there's a solution to every possible set of circumstances. There are those for whom it's just not the right camera or the right workflow, and that's really as it should be -- and as it is with every camera/workflow ever devised.

taormina

04-22-2007, 02:20 PM

Yeah Harddrive, but why invent these wacky scenarios. Do you shoot ENG in a stadium, yes or no? If yes, then you have a point.

I'd rather hear....."I once had to shoot in a stadium" than "what if ..." and then some ultra rare scenario.

Be honest about the situations you've run into where you would need a tape...if not with me then with yourself.

harddrive

04-22-2007, 02:49 PM

Nice (undeserved) swipe, but .......
David, no swipe was intended, and I apologise if that was the way it came across. I only intended to make clear that I was not talking theoretically, but had practical experience of P2, and was part of a unanimous collective decision that it was not the way forward for us until a cheap card was available. If SxS provides that path, then so be it.

Taormina. That scenario was far from "wacky". I don't want to generalise about my own personal work, every day tends to be different, but that scenario was close to one that I have experienced in the recent past, and intended to reflect why many people have a problem with P2. If you don't find it realistic, that's your right.

TedRR

04-22-2007, 02:54 PM

Only speaking from my experience, but the XDcam stuff is not considered as Broadcast as our DVCPro is in our market. We've had excellent reception and there have been far more HVX purchases here. I don't know of much XDcam penetration here.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 05:12 PM

The express card has a nice little form factor. But my big question here is, if I have a P2 system, and a direct adapter is made to put express cards right into the p2 slot of my camera. And I'm getting the exact same performance. Where is the problem in this?

I buy a whole handful of express cards, a couple p2-express adapters that fit the express cards NICELY, and I still get my data at the end of the project.
Travis,

The problem is Panasonic will never do this. They will never make this adapter because if they did it would be P2 suicide. Think about it. If they made an adapter that let you use ExpressCards, then why would even buy their expensive P2 cards anymore? If you don't buy P2 cards, other people won't either. If no one buys P2 then isn't the format effectively dead? It makes no sense for Panasonic to enable people to use something other than their P2 cards. Simple.

So the question current HVX owners need to ask themselves is do they want to stay locked into this P2 format or should they get out of Dodge as fast as they can to get the most money for their gear. Right now this isn't an urgent issue but if Canon and/or JVC adopts ExpressCards, the tide could turn real fast. If you see that happening I would suggest you consider getting out of Dodge.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 05:24 PM

There's a lot more to a P2 card than a simple PCMCIA form factor. There's a lot of internal engineering and firmware which allow it to do all it does. It's not like you can just stick an Express Card into a P2 shell and start shooting.

As for current HVX owners, they're "locked" into the P2 format if they wish to continue shooting with the HVX, which is a much bigger question. The HVX has a lot more going for it than you appear to give it credit for. If Canon and/or JVC produce cameras which use Express Cards but don't offer 100 Mb intraframe 4:2:2, variable frame rates, the Panasonic Cine-Gamma curves, etc., which is what draws most people to the camera (and NOT the P2 cards), then you're pretty much throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't shoot HDV because I don't want to shoot 25 Mb Long-GOP. It doesn't matter if it's on tape or on a card -- it's still 25 Mb Long-GOP -- and generally 4:2:0.

No one expects P2 to last forever.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 05:45 PM

There's a lot more to a P2 card than a simple PCMCIA form factor. There's a lot of internal engineering and firmware which allow it to do all it does. It's not like you can just stick an Express Card into a P2 shell and start shooting.
Yes, that's why they are so expensive! But ExpressCards do the same thing, only simpler and cheaper. Simpler and cheaper is always good in my book. That's why you can just stick an ExpressCard into a P2 shell. Heck, Barry Green was the one that suggested that to Panasonic! Are you saying he's wrong?

As for current HVX owners, they're "locked" into the P2 format if they wish to continue shooting with the HVX, which is a much bigger question. The HVX has a lot more going for it than you appear to give it credit for. If Canon and/or JVC produce cameras which use Express Cards but don't offer 100 Mb intraframe 4:2:2, variable frame rates, the Panasonic Cine-Gamma curves, etc., which is what draws most people to the camera (and NOT the P2 cards), then you're pretty much throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm sure there will always be something about Panasonic's products that someone will like. I don't doubt that. They make good stuff, but they just approach things a different way. But it's clear the other companies are listening. Sony's latest camera has a larger chip, manual lens and variable frame rates. That's huge man! There's no way Canon or JVC can compete unless they match that or raise the bar even higher. Yes, it's still long GOP and I know people will poo-poo that, but IMO intraframe versus long GOP is really just a preference. Quality is not an issue like some people make it out to be, at least not for probably 95% of the applications. Discovery HD allows 100% XDCAM-HD 35 Mbps acquistion. The HVX despite its "mojo", 4:2:2, intraframe, etc. is only approved for 15% acquistion. Doesn't that tell you something?

By the way, XDCAM-HD is not HDV nor is only 25 Mbps CBR.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 06:03 PM

That's why you can just stick an ExpressCard into a P2 shell. Heck, Barry Green was the one that suggested that to Panasonic! Are you saying he's wrong?

What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. I know what Barry suggested.

By the way, XDCAM-HD is not HDV nor is only 25 Mbps CBR.

Didn't mention XDCAM; I said only Canon and JVC. But while XDCAM isn't 1/4 the data rate of DVCPRO HD, it's still only 1/3, long-GOP, and 4:2:0. Yes, it does make a difference. As a matter of "preference," I prefer not to have macroblocks all over my high-motion areas, I prefer not to have horizontal color spikes when I greenscreen and color-correct, and I prefer to do frame-accurate editing.

Why do people keep bringing up Discovery HD? I don't give a rip what their broadcast standards are; I've seen uprezzed DVX footage on DHD, and it looked like crap, so I don't exactly use them as a bellwether. It's a red herring anyway, because better is better no matter what their standards are. And DVCPRO HD simply looks better than either HDV or XDCAM, especially after a generation or three. This I have seen with my own eyes.

So, it isn't the P2 which draws people to the camera. The P2 is nice. The P2 is a great workflow. But that's not the primary reason why the HVX rocks. If it were, Focus Enhancements wouldn't have sold thousands of FS-100s.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 06:19 PM

What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. I know what Barry suggested.
It doesn't really matter because Panasonic will never make this adapter unless they want to kill off P2 themselves.

But while XDCAM isn't 1/4 the data rate of DVCPRO HD, it's still only 1/3, long-GOP, and 4:2:0. Yes, it does make a difference. As a matter of "preference," I prefer not to have macroblocks all over my high-motion areas, I prefer not to have horizontal color spikes when I greenscreen and color-correct, and I prefer to do frame-accurate editing.
Well I prefer an affordable, space-efficient codec that doesn't require three times the storage space to shoot, edit and archive. Is that not important too? Different strokes for different folks. And are you implying that all long GOP formats (including XDCAM-HD 35Mbps VBR) are prone to macroblocks, color spikes and you can't frame-accurate edit? Man, I guess all those tens of thousands of professional shooters who use XDCAM-HD have really low standards.

Why do people keep bringing up Discovery HD? I don't give a rip what their broadcast standards are; I've seen uprezzed DVX footage on DHD, and it looked like crap, so I don't exactly use them as a bellwether.
I bring it up because people here do the same thing. Barry Green is always saying how WETA Digital chose the HVX over XDCAM-HD. He lists "Fox, Australia's ABC, India's NDTV, Raycom, Media General, Cox, and all the other mass adopters of P2" and yet I can't bring up Discovery HD? Why? I can't bring up something unless it's favorable to the HVX? Well that's not very fair, is it?

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 06:40 PM

Long-GOP is what it is. 4:2:0 color space is what it is. These are mathematical facts.

But, as you say, you make trade-offs according to your priorities. My overriding priority is what the picture looks like, and I'll adjust everything else before I compromise on that. And I'm not the only one who thinks so; Ikegami just announecd their own tapeless solution -- intraframe 4:2:2, based on the DNxHD codec -- and cited everything I did as reasons why they did so, so it isn't just a Panasonic thing.

The point, of course, is that many, many people who use the HVX agree with me, and use it precisely because of the reasons I stated, and aren't likely to abandon it just because you think P2 is dead.

I don't care if you bring up Discovery HD; I'm simply saying that just because it (XDCAM or HDV) is acceptable to DHD, it doesn't automatically follow that it's not STILL inferior to DVCPROHD.

But if you want to make similar objections to Barry mentioning Fox, etc., please, go right ahead. It's pretty much apples and oranges, though, because he's using those examples to make a different point, which is that lot of people have invested in P2, so it's thriving and far from "dead," as opposed to saying it's a better format because of it. I never said XDCAM was dead.

In any case, to the point about Panasonic never making the adapter because it would kill sales, I don't think that necessarily follows. No price point has been released on the SxS cards as of yet, and the 16GB ExpressCards (Transcend, for example) I've seen out there will list for more than the 16GB P2 cards will, so what's the advantage to ExpressCards, exactly? I mean, who knows what'll happen over time, but why do people automatically assume that EC will put P2 out of business? Just because of the laptop thing?

And what's everyone going to say if the SxS cards debut at substantially higher prices than P2 -- which isn't exactly unlikely, considering the specs to which it'll have to be built? P2 is maturing and the prices are dropping exponentially -- with a lot of lead time over SxS.

But ya know, as others have said, a little healthy competition benefits us all, so if there's a price war, it can only be good for us.

I just happen to agree with Barry that the reports of the demise of P2 are widely exaggerated.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 07:19 PM

I am not arguing that 4:2:0 is better or even as good as 4:2:2. Like you said, mathematical facts. Heck even Sony has a 4:2:2 version of XDCAM now.

But my point is that for the overwhelming majority of applications, the difference does not matter. Discovery HD is just one example. I hear this a lot that the picture is the overriding priority and people are always so fixated by the picture. Sure, it's important, but honestly there is no significant difference between 4:2:2 as implement in DVCPRO-HD and 4:2:0 for the applications that a typical DVXUser will do.

People here are independent filmmakers. They don't have much money. They just want to make a movie. The sad thing is a lot of them get brainwashed into thinking that they have to have 4:2:2 or somehow their movie will suck. It's not true. Your movie could suck because the camerawork is bad, the audio is bad, the lighting is bad, the writing is bad, or any number of things but it's not going to suck because you used long GOP 4:2:0 and not 4:2:2 intraframe. That's the truth and anyone who says otherwise is doing a great disservice to people who don't have a lot of money.

Anyhow, ExpressCards will be expensive at first like you said. I agree there. But c'mon man, Lexar, Sandisk, Sony, and Transcend will all be making them. Hell maybe even Simpletech and A-Data or B-Data or whatever those dang off-brand Newegg memory guys will too. ExpressCards are the new standard for laptops. They're already making new laptops with them. It's all just plain normal computer stuff. We all know how computer stuff takes off and gets really cheap. I pay more for a tank of gas than a 2 GB USB flash drive! The potential is there. P2 does not have that potential. Even Barry Green recognizes the potential of ExpressCards otherwise he wouldn't say Panasonic would be stupid for not thinking of supporting ExpressCards.

And yes, that adapter would kill P2 sales. Why the heck would you buy an P2 card if Panasonic is enabling you to use a different memory card? And if they lower the price of P2 so ExpressCards are not attractive, then what's the point of making that ExpressCard to P2 adapter? See the catch-22? There is no way they will make this adapter. Panasonic is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If you see them supporting ExpressCards, P2 will be dead.

taormina

04-22-2007, 07:22 PM

Damn...why sit here and plug Sony. Just go buy it!!!! Why beat it to death on a Panny board. If I wanted a Sony I could've had a sony....no regrets here.

arrestthisman

04-22-2007, 07:31 PM

Harddrive: Why don't you just offload to a very large drive in the field, mirror it for yourself if needed, and hand THAT to your clients?

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 07:31 PM

Damn...why sit here and plug Sony. Just go buy it!!!! Why beat it to death on a Panny board. If I wanted a Sony I could've had a sony....no regrets here.
Last time I checked long GOP 4:2:0 and ExpressCards were not proprietary to Sony.

My point for all the DVXusers is check out all the options (Panasonic, Sony, JVC, Canon, your Nokia cell phone camera, etc.), make a decision for yourself and don't get brainwashed by marketing hype "mojo", 4:2:2, intraframe=good, interframe=devil. People here don't have a lot of money. So spend your money wisely and get the best bang for your buck. An OConnor fluid head would be a good investment =)

Also last time I checked DVXUser was a "community for filmmaking." Is filmmaking restricted to Panasonic equipment?

taormina

04-22-2007, 07:41 PM

No, it's not restricted just to Panny...but it is a predominantly Panny board. And who told you people here don't have alot of money? What I don't care for (personally) is having a decent thread turn into some jackoff deal where someone is trying to convince someone els of the merits of some other technology.

It took me probably 3 months to choose the HVX after some exhaustive research. I wasn't brainwashed - I feel I bought the best camera I could for the money I spent....the HVX. I could've spent much more, but there were definitely diminishing returns on anything much more expensive. I paid cash for all my stuff including 2 additional computers, NLEs, lights, you name it. I probably spent $30K last month.

I could've had a red or an SI2k but didn't want to wait. It's all about most bang for the buck, and right now, HVX holds the title - period.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 07:52 PM

No, it's not restricted just to Panny...but it is a predominantly Panny board. And who told you people here don't have alot of money? What I don't care for (personally) is having a decent thread turn into some jackoff deal where someone is trying to convince someone els of the merits of some other technology.
HELLO?? The subject of this thread is the XDCAM-EX!! What else am I suppose to be talking about? I don't get it dude. If you don't like this thread then move along. But the mods haven't killed it because we're politely discussing facts for and against this competing technolgy. You got a problem with facts?

Well sure there will always be someone like you who has 30G's to drop on equipment. Good for you. But give me a break. People here are building Steadicams out of PVC pipe and improvising lights from the Home Depot. You think those people have money? You think independent filmmakers in general have money? Then why don't they pay the talent and crew then?!

bluetuned

04-22-2007, 08:01 PM

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 08:53 PM

Sure, it's important, but honestly there is no significant difference between 4:2:2 as implement in DVCPRO-HD and 4:2:0 for the applications that a typical DVXUser will do.
Even if true (which I do not concede), so? No one said anything about what "typical DVXusers" do. Not relevant to the conversation at hand.

People here are independent filmmakers. They don't have much money. They just want to make a movie. The sad thing is a lot of them get brainwashed into thinking that they have to have 4:2:2 or somehow their movie will suck. It's not true. Your movie could suck because the camerawork is bad, the audio is bad, the lighting is bad, the writing is bad, or any number of things but it's not going to suck because you used long GOP 4:2:0 and not 4:2:2 intraframe. That's the truth and anyone who says otherwise is doing a great disservice to people who don't have a lot of money.
Again, so? Not what I was talking about. You're saying that people should abandon their HVXs just because you think P2 is dead. I'm saying that people who use HVXs don't use it only because of P2, and in fact, I'd wager it's a secondary or tertiary consideration for the vast majority.

Anyhow, ExpressCards will be expensive at first like you said. I agree there. But c'mon man, Lexar, Sandisk, Sony, and Transcend will all be making them. Hell maybe even Simpletech and A-Data or B-Data or whatever those dang off-brand Newegg memory guys will too. ExpressCards are the new standard for laptops. They're already making new laptops with them. It's all just plain normal computer stuff. We all know how computer stuff takes off and gets really cheap. I pay more for a tank of gas than a 2 GB USB flash drive! The potential is there. P2 does not have that potential. Even Barry Green recognizes the potential of ExpressCards otherwise he wouldn't say Panasonic would be stupid for not thinking of supporting ExpressCards.
You keep trying to shift the conversation. No one's saying that P2 will last forever. No one's saying that ExpressCard memory won't be a great thing.

What people ARE saying is that a single camera announcing the intention to use ExpressCard memory cards does not a death warrant for P2 make, as you're insisting it is.

ExpressCard could well flop. Could be that there's something that always keeps the price for HD acquisition cards above that of P2 cards. Or something could come along that blows both of them away.

But to say that right now, today, P2 is dead and that everyone should move to something else, right now, today, is simply ludicrous. There's no other way to describe it.

And yes, that adapter would kill P2 sales. Why the heck would you buy an P2 card if Panasonic is enabling you to use a different memory card? And if they lower the price of P2 so ExpressCards are not attractive, then what's the point of making that ExpressCard to P2 adapter? See the catch-22? There is no way they will make this adapter. Panasonic is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If you see them supporting ExpressCards, P2 will be dead.
P2 is more than just the cards. P2 is an entire system which an adapter wouldn't kill.

By the way, Panasonic has offered third-party card manufacture licensing for anyone who could show they'd be able to meet the standards of quality since the beginning.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 08:54 PM

One question I have is...who is to say that Sony doesn't twist it as to require some form of proprietary express card? Sony has a long and rich history of requiring you to use proprietary components in their products. Will this be different?
Good question. I hope not. If they do that it would be very bad, especially since it would make my posts look foolish :grin:

The cards are technically SxS Express Cards. But from this press release (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0704/07041601sxsmemorycardformat.asp) on DPReview I can't tell if there is any difference between a plain jane Express Card and an SxS card. The SxS cards comply with the Express Card standard, have the same size and same interface. It's just they have a target transfer speed of 800 Mbps (the format has max transfer speed of 2.5 Gbps). So it seems like the SxS cards are just branded so that they are guaranteed to work for HD video. It's like having a CF card that is like minimum 60X speed for your DSLR or something like that.

I guess we won't really know until they ship the camera and someone sticks a generic ExpressCard into it. But you're right, Sony has a history of proprietary formats. Perhaps they have turned a new leaf and abandoned their evil ways. That's why this was such big news.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 09:00 PM

People here are building Steadicams out of PVC pipe and improvising lights from the Home Depot. You think those people have money? You think independent filmmakers in general have money? Then why don't they pay the talent and crew then?!

Now, hold on -- you're predicting the demise of P2 and urging people to dump their HVXs based on the upcoming release of a camera which, without memory cards, will cost more than an HVX with two 32 GB cards, and you're citing limited funds as a lynchpin of your argument?

Dude, if you don't like P2 and you're hyped on XDCAM, that's your own business and God bless you, but holy cow, don't project it on everyone else.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 09:02 PM

The cards are technically SxS Express Cards. But from this press release (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0704/07041601sxsmemorycardformat.asp) on DPReview I can't tell if there is any difference between a plain jane Express Card and an SxS card. The SxS cards comply with the Express Card standard, have the same size and same interface. It's just they have a target transfer speed of 800 Mbps (the format has max transfer speed of 2.5 Gbps). So it seems like the SxS cards are just branded so that they are guaranteed to work for HD video. It's like having a CF card that is like minimum 60X speed for your DSLR or something like that.

Not only is it a transfer rate issue, it's also a quality control issue. In order for these cards to perform, they need to be zero-defect, which is one of the reasons why P2 cards are so expensive. Typical consumer-grade stuff won't do.

TimurCivan

04-22-2007, 09:07 PM

I'm saying that people who use HVXs don't use it only because of P2, and in fact, I'd wager it's a secondary or tertiary consideration for the vast majority.

Well i chose it Specifically because of P2.... it let me have a 100mbps,1080p, Variable framerate, 720p, DVCPRO50 camera all in one package 6 MONTHS AGO!!! (though other lucky ducks had it for over a year)

its paid for itself, and EVERYONE who has seen footage has been happy. Stop worrying. Everyone, if you guys like XDCAM and its offerings better, go fuckign buy it. Me and David will, love ourr HVX';s, and use vegas till our eyes bleed. Im gonna buy that sony if its footage loooks good. then when a better camera comes out.... im gonna buy that one too. Becvause guess what. Video camera = Hamer/screw driver. It a too lto make me money. thats it. its not a religous idol that needs, to be defended to death.

Rant over.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 09:07 PM

But to say that right now, today, P2 is dead and that everyone should move to something else, right now, today, is simply ludicrous. There's no other way to describe it.

Sorry if I am implying that. I am not. I even said in this post (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=927919&postcount=128)that it is not an urgent issue right now. But...if ExpressCards get adopted by other manufacturers, it could be a serious issue. It's like when BetacamSP equipment got supplanted by digital, if you didn't sell out early, the value of the equipment dropped like a rock.

For people who have yet to buy into a system, it is my opinion that those people should think twice about P2. If they think twice and still choose P2, I have no ill will towards them. All I'm saying is that times are a' changing and I would think real hard before choosing ANY system.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 09:11 PM

One question I have is...who is to say that Sony doesn't twist it as to require some form of proprietary express card? Sony has a long and rich history of requiring you to use proprietary components in their products. Will this be different?

Sony announced a year or two ago that they were never going to produce another system which WASN'T proprietary. Is this still their plan? Don't know. But I'd probably lean on the side of your take here.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 09:17 PM

its paid for itself, and EVERYONE who has seen footage has been happy. Stop worrying. Everyone, if you guys like XDCAM and its offerings better, go poo pooign buy it. Me and David will, love ourr HVX';s, and use vegas till our eyes bleed. Im gonna buy that sony if its footage loooks good. then when a better camera comes out.... im gonna buy that one too. Becvause guess what. Video camera = Hamer/screw driver. It a too lto make me money. thats it. its not a religous idol that needs, to be defended to death.
Timur, you are very fortunate that you get paid for what you do and can afford to buy new cameras because they pay for themselves. Unfortunately, most independent filmmakers and enthusiasts (like many on this site) do not have that luxury. The one camera they have will have to last them a very long time. Would it be wise for them to buy into P2 when something better might be out there? I don't think so. I am not here to defend or fight against any camera or format like a religious zealot. I don't get paid by any camera company so it does me no good if someone chooses one over another.

I don't even normally post on this site. But honestly all I am trying to do is help people choose a good camera, especially those who have very little money. Many of these people just love filmmaking and don't know necessarily understand a lot of the technical details. So they rely on the opinions of others to help them and many of those opinions are skewed towards expensive equipment that they may not need, such as intraframe 4:2:2.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 09:18 PM

Well i chose it Specifically because of P2.... it let me have a 100mbps,1080p, Variable framerate, 720p, DVCPRO50 camera all in one package 6 MONTHS AGO!!! (though other lucky ducks had it for over a year)

its paid for itself, and EVERYONE who has seen footage has been happy. Stop worrying. Everyone, if you guys like XDCAM and its offerings better, go poo pooign buy it. Me and David will, love ourr HVX';s, and use vegas till our eyes bleed. Im gonna buy that sony if its footage loooks good. then when a better camera comes out.... im gonna buy that one too. Becvause guess what. Video camera = Hamer/screw driver. It a too lto make me money. thats it. its not a religous idol that needs, to be defended to death.

Rant over.

If it gives me the image I want, then I'll use it. :beer:

But did you buy the HVX because it's P2, or because you wanted the benefits of everyone you listed, and P2 allowed you that without a $12,000 tape transport on the side?

TimurCivan

04-22-2007, 09:26 PM

because it let me own equipment that could provide all thoes benefits. So yes, i didint need to be stuck to a Deck or computer via a SDI => DVCproHDdeck/XDcamdeck/Konacard whatever. i can just shoot.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 09:28 PM

I don't even normally post on this site. But honestly all I am trying to do is help people chooce a good camera, especially those who have very little money. Many of these people just love filmmaking and don't know necessarily understand a lot of the technical details. So they rely on the opinions of others to help them and many of those opinions are skewed towards expensive equipment that they may not need, such as intraframe 4:2:2.

Tim, the only one in this thread who's urging anyone toward or against any camera is you. No one here is saying anyone should buy an HVX. The only reason intraframe 4:2:2 even came into the conversation was as a possible explanation as to why people who have chosen the HVX did so, and why they'll be very interested in continuing to use it despite your warnings that P2 is dead.

But again, I have to return to the fact that the HVX with two 32 GB cards will still cost less than the XDCAM EX without cards, and ExpressCards are going to list higher than P2 cards, so your concern about people's pocketbooks seems a bit misplaced. And any talk of Canon or JVC offerings is at this point entirely specious.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 09:31 PM

because it let me own equipment that could provide all thoes benefits. So yes, i didint need to be stuck to a Deck or computer via a SDI => DVCproHDdeck/XDcamdeck/Konacard whatever. i can just shoot.

Right. That's what I'm saying.

TimurCivan

04-22-2007, 09:39 PM

Timur, you are very fortunate that you get paid for what you do and can afford to buy new cameras because they pay for themselves. Unfortunately, most independent filmmakers and enthusiasts (like many on this site) do not have that luxury. The one camera they have will have to last them a very long time. Would it be wise for them to buy into P2 when something better might be out there? I don't think so. I am not here to defend or fight against any camera or format like a religious zealot. I don't get paid by any camera company so it does me no good if someone chooses one over another.

I don't even normally post on this site. But honestly all I am trying to do is help people choose a good camera, especially those who have very little money. Many of these people just love filmmaking and don't know necessarily understand a lot of the technical details. So they rely on the opinions of others to help them and many of those opinions are skewed towards expensive equipment that they may not need, such as intraframe 4:2:2.

Hmm ok. I understand what you mean, but, i really think anyone who is a "Amateur", or, indie filmmmaker who only shooting theri own work, who isnt a DP, or event videographer, where multiple formats become important, should buy an A1. its a miracle of Video. Gorgeous picture, and under 4,000$. What more can you possibly ask for???? I need the P2 workflow (or the new XDCAMex for that matter) because i need to be able to provide my clients with the level of aquisition they prefer. some people cant edit, 1080, cause theri computer is slow. So i can offer them, 720p, DVCpro50 or DV. Some people are shooting Web videos, to be delivered at ~480x240 resolution. i shoot DVCpro50 for them. They wouldnt need 1080P HDV. its over kill, and will maketheir lives unneccesarily difficult. I can offer them the resolution that best fits their specific job. The Panasonic, to me, is the only really professional sub 10K camera. If the Sony has an AWESOME picutre, that will be the new king. but we have yet to see an image. Who knows, it may suffer from the "oilpaint" effect and be nearly useless.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 09:56 PM

Tim, the only one in this thread who's urging anyone toward or against any camera is you.
David, I don't appreciate that characterization. I have REPEATEDLY stated there are options from Sony, JVC and Canon and even Panasonic. Look at my post history here and at DVInfo. I make positive and negative comments towards all cameras ranging from the HV20 to the V1U to the HD100.

The HVX was mentioned because it's the only P2 camera that people here would likely buy. But since the subject of this thread is the XDCAM-EX, the discussion naturally moved to P2 versus ExpressCards. I laid out all the advantages of the ExpressCard open format. My points are for all P2 cameras, if that has not been clear.

Once again, I am not urging anyone to buy anything. What does it matter to me? All that I am saying is that people consider all options. Seems simple to me. I'm now sounding like a broken record so I'm putting this one to rest.

Good luck everyone with your camera purchase and remember, good filmmaking is the sum of its parts. It's not just the image.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 10:00 PM

David, I don't appreciate that characterization. I have REPEATEDLY stated there are options from Sony, JVC and Canon and even Panasonic. Look at my post history here and at DVInfo. I make positive and negative comments towards all cameras ranging from the HV20 to the V1U to the HD100.

The HVX was mentioned because it's the only P2 camera that people here would likely buy. I have nothing against the HVX200. Buy since the subject of this thread is the XDCAM-EX, the discussion naturally moved to P2 versus ExpressCards. I laid out all the advantages of the ExpressCard open format. My points are for all P2 cameras, if that has not been clear.

Once again, I am not urging anyone to buy anything. What does it matter to me? All that I am saying is that people consider all options. Seems simple to me. I'm now sounding like a broken record so I'm putting this one to rest.

Good luck everyone with your camera purchase and remember, good filmmaking is the sum of its parts. It's not just the image.

No, Tim; you're not urging anyone to buy a camera, but you are urging everyone to dump P2. (You said to "get out of Dodge" twice in one sentence, for example.) And, as I said, you're the only one in this thread who's urging for or against any camera. I don't think that's an unfair characterization.

TedRR

04-22-2007, 10:05 PM

So this doesn't turn into an HVX is best thread. I'm sure the Sony will make decent pictures and have a place in the industry. And competition creates better tools so it's all good.

But does anyone remember what the Sony will record? Can it do all flavors? I must have missed that with all the anti P2 talk.
If not, that still makes me happy with my HVX purchase. As TimurCivan said, being able record the flavor of the day makes my HVX a wise business decision.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 10:09 PM

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of detail yet, but I gather it's going to shoot similar formats (but not codecs, obviously) to the HVX -- 1080p -- maybe 30p and 24p, 1080i/60, 720p -- probably 24 and 60, maybe 30. And whatever their variable frame rate implementation will be. It remains to be seen.

It'll be interesting to see what they do re: VFR with long-GOP recording. With intraframe, especially Native mode in P2, it's easy. We'll see.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 10:15 PM

No, Tim; you're not urging anyone to buy a camera, but you are urging everyone to dump P2. (You said to "get out of Dodge" twice in one sentence, for example.) And, as I said, you're the only one in this thread who's urging for or against any camera. I don't think that's an unfair characterization.
Okay fine, one last thing. David, P2 is not a camera, is it? So how am I urging for or against a camera? I said you should consider getting out of dodge IF people see a trend where other manufacturers are adopting ExpressCards. I don't know about you, but in my world that would be wise thing to do.

Ted, the XDCAM-EX records to XDCAM-HD format up to 35 Mbps VBR. It records to 1080/60i and 720/60P, and will be capable of recording 1080/50i/30P/25P/24P and 720/50P. It will also have some form of variable frame rates, some people reporting 1-60 frames, but I don't think that is confirmed.

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 10:20 PM

Only 60p or 50p in 720? Is that confirmed? Or are other frame rates not listed because that's where the VFR will happen?

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 10:21 PM

Only 60p or 50p in 720? Is that confirmed?

It does both.

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/29851.html

David Jimerson

04-22-2007, 10:28 PM

I get that. But no 24p/25p/30p, apparently.

Tim Le

04-22-2007, 10:38 PM

I get that. But no 24p/25p/30p, apparently.

No, apparently not in 720. But what does that matter when it can do 1080/60i/50i/30P/25P/24P? Seems like you're just nitpicking David.

Barry_Green

04-22-2007, 11:11 PM

It doesn't really matter because Panasonic will never make this adapter unless they want to kill off P2 themselves.
You keep saying that as if it's authoritative. You have *no idea* what Panasonic will or won't do.

Do you think it was "P2 suicide" to include a tape drive, or to make a P2 alternative (the FireStore, which was developed in partnership with Focus and is sold exclusively by Panasonic)? Do you think it was "P2 suicide" to allow direct recording to computers or tape decks? As it now stands, P2 is an OPTION on the HVX. It is perhaps the best option, but still only an option.

Very soon we should have third-party card suppliers from Hoodman and one other (Venom or something like that). Either one may choose to implement the expresscard adapter as I've suggested. Or not. But it really doesn't matter. The system is here now, works now, has fantastic support from broadcasters worldwide, and will be here for years and years to come.

Panasonic's pretty much "bet the company" on P2. To imply that they'll somehow miss that bet is to grossly underestimate them.

Barry_Green

04-22-2007, 11:22 PM

And yes, that adapter would kill P2 sales. Why the heck would you buy an P2 card if Panasonic is enabling you to use a different memory card?
Why do you speak as if you KNOW what they will and won't do? You don't have any idea what their internal roadmap is (and neither do I, nor does anyone else outside of the factory in Japan).

They're selling tens of thousands of P2 cameras today, whether you think ExpressCard is a better form factor or not. And there's some rather intelligent people at work in that company. If they think ExpressCard would offer a significant benefit to their users, they'd supply it. If they think it would offer a competitive edge, they'd supply it. If they felt they were going to lose sales by not offering it, they'd offer it.

The difference is, they're not just making off-the-cuff proclamations, they have extensive marketing and research behind their decisions. They have tight relationships with massive broadcast outlets. They know exactly what they're doing.

I exhort you to consider that perhaps your doomsday scenario isn't the only possible way to interpret the facts. I again point you to the fact that they made an ALTERNATIVE to P2 recording available almost from Day 1 (the FireStore, for those who want to record on hard disk instead of cards). And that there are other alternatives, none of which they've tried to stop from coming to market (the CitiDisk, the CinePorter, the Hoodman H2 p2-equivalent card, etc).

Let me throw this out there: Panasonic wants to sell cameras. P2 is an accessory to the camera. If they felt that making an ExpressCard adapter would help them sell more cameras, that's what they'll do. But what they WON'T do is screw over their existing customer base by giving them no path to upgrade! Which is why I say -- if they decide ExpressCard is the way to go at some point in the future, they'd most likely develop some adapter idea.

And they have not yet ever said that they're going to do that. And as long as stations and broadcasters continue to convert to their system, WHY SHOULD THEY? Heck, Asia Pacific told me that something on the order of 70% of broadcast in Asia is now converted to Panasonic gear. They're doing rather well in the marketplace. Their system works. They have no incentive to rock the boat.

And if the boat gets rocked, they will respond. So why the worry?

Barry_Green

04-22-2007, 11:32 PM

Okay, another characterization I reject is the notion that this board is made up of exclusively backyard filmmakers. There are very many people on here who make their living from video. Most have some aspirations towards making their opus film, many have no interest in that whatsoever. You can't issue blanket statements about this board's membership; it just wouldn't be accurate.

Let the EX come out before you say it will or won't ignite massive trends one way or another. It's still almost 8 months away -- at the Sony booth they said "end of the year, and about $8,000." That's a *long* time in camcorder-speak. Plenty of time for Canon to bring out an AVC-HD version of the XHA1 that records to dirt-cheap SD memory cards, or Panasonic to put out a high-def AVC-HD-based DVX100 that retails at $2500 and records to off-the-shelf SD memory cards, etc. Whether the EX even has applicability for the vast majority of the membership remains to be seen, it is far from a "done deal."

The only things we know for certain are: 1) Sony has at least acknowledged that memory-card recording is a good thing, 2) they are trying to match the HVX feature-for-feature, which is a good thing, and 3) those who actually like the XDCAM long-GOP format will now have another choice available to them, which is a good thing for them. All the rest of this posturing and speculation is counterproductive and premature, and based on extremely incomplete information.

When the time gets closer, and facts are known, we'll gladly revisit it. Right now, it seems to be bringing out the worst in the board, so this thread's getting a lockdown until things cool off.