Sony XDCAM EX

[William_Robinette]

Posted over at DVinfo:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Unveils-XDCAM-EX-Flash-Memory-Broadcast-Camcorder.htm

Looks nice.

[hawaj]

tapes and discs are gone, yuk!

[polispol]

xpresscard... 8gb and 16gb.... two slots....
doesn't reminds you to something familiar?
what happened with bluray discs? aren't that the future?

[Digigenic]

xpresscard... 8gb and 16gb.... two slots....
doesn't reminds you to something familiar?

If it had 1/3" imagers, then yes, it would remind me of the HVX.
But it has 1/2" imagers, likely clearvid CMOS, which makes this a different beast, IMO.


what happened with bluray discs? aren't that the future?
Good point, but then again...the small form factor of this camera doesn't really allow disc drives to be implemented.

[MemphisMourns]

Anybody wanna guesstimate the retail on this? I'm going to be boring and say $5999... oh wait, did someone say 1/2 inch chips? Then I don't know.

[William_Robinette]

I'm guessing higher then that. I'm thinking more like the JVC HD200 in price, up around 9k.

[themagickite]

round 1....FIGHT!

[themagickite]

wonder how canon will respond to this?

[themagickite]

I'm guessing higher then that. I'm thinking more like the JVC HD200 in price, up around 9k.

maybe not, “The XDCAM EX camcorder will make the most sense in small production systems, where the shooter and editor is often the same person,” sounds like they want to appeal to those on a budget, it porobably won't have a tape drive like the hvx, and does anyone know for sure that this will use 3 sensors (maybe a single large CMOS like canon have been doing lately in their consumer range)?

just guessing, but it looks like direct competition to the hvx to me, so price would have to come close too, but as i say that's just my guess (possibly tainted by wishful thinking)

[Camera Expert]

wonder how canon will respond to this?
You mean Panasonic.



It’s nice to see that Sony secretly admired the HVX200. The Canon XH-A1 is in a different category.

[themagickite]

no i mean canon

cause this could make them the odd one out of the big 3

i mean are they gonna come out with a handheld that has 2 ExpressCard compatible card slots too?

and if so will that lead to a new P2-like card format that works across the boudaries of brandnames?

i wonder how similar p2 and SxS are? and if they could be made compatible with eachother?

after looking at it more it looks a bit bigger than the hvx

[snowleopard]

The only step Canon "needs" to take is the ability to team up with someone to come up with an on the fly compression scheme to get the uncompressed out of the HD-SDI port to something like a Firestore, or find a way to get something like HDMI compatibility with the A1 through firewire. (Yes, I realize these cameras were not designed to do this, ya, ya).

Other than that, I think they are sitting very pretty in the HDV market. There's a lot of people who don't mind shooting to tape at all, and embrace HDV. For them, the Canon's may rule this roost for some time.

As to cost on the Sony, 1/2" or not, if they end up over about $10k (sans lens) they'll end up in no man's land. They'll be eaten alive from below by the HVX200, and from above by the HPX550, and sideways from JVC and the Canon H1 (tape or no tape).

[Elton]

VBR 35 mbs XDCAM codec is pretty friggin' good. If this camera does that with 1/2" chips it could be very competitive, even if priced well above the HVX.

[ecking]

The only step Canon "needs" to take is the ability to team up with someone to come up with an on the fly compression scheme to get the uncompressed out of the HD-SDI port to something like a Firestore, or find a way to get something like HDMI compatibility with the A1 through firewire. (Yes, I realize these cameras were not designed to do this, ya, ya).

Other than that, I think they are sitting very pretty in the HDV market. There's a lot of people who don't mind shooting to tape at all, and embrace HDV. For them, the Canon's may rule this roost for some time.

As to cost on the Sony, 1/2" or not, if they end up over about $10k (sans lens) they'll end up in no man's land. They'll be eaten alive from below by the HVX200, and from above by the HPX550, and sideways from JVC and the Canon H1 (tape or no tape).

100% Agree that's exactly what I'm thinking. If canon makes or teams with someone to produce some sort of portable capture unit for HD-SDI, they reach new markets with and breathe new life without making a new camera.

[Camera Expert]

VBR 35 mbs XDCAM codec is pretty friggin' good. If this camera does that with 1/2" chips it could be very competitive, even if priced well above the HVX.
I fully agree.


This camcorder will be a force even if it’s priced at around 10 to 12 thousand dollars and what’s to say Sony won’t release an HDV version with the same size chips.

[snowleopard]

But wouldn't you seriously consider the Panny HPX550 (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=112115&catGroupId=34401&surfModel=AG-HPX500) at $14k instead? With proven P2 technology (and soon to be seen 32gb cards), and 2/3" chips? The Sony would have to come in under this including a lens and cards I'd think.

[themagickite]

but this camera has a built in lens doesn't it?

the G1 is the most expensive non-interchangeable lens camera at the moment right?

somehow i don't think any brand can really push it much more, especially now that HD is becoming more widespread, the HD premium price should be falling.

[StMad]

That is one sexy looking cam. The specs are sexy too. Expresscard? 1/2" chips? Both 24p and 25p? (a big deal where I live). If it ever does get released, I'm sure Sony will find a way to screw it up.

[Simon Wyndham]

Regarding price my initial info, not confirmed says that the pricing will be around the same as the HVX200.

I've put a load of detailed info about it up here;
http://www.tapelessrev.com/xdcamnab2007.html
And Nigel Cooper has a good article up that also includes details of a shoulder mounted HDV model similar to the DSR250;
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158
http://www.xdcamuser.co.uk

[themagickite]

wow!

it's on!

it's gonna be a nasty fight!

if this is an international camera (does 25P/50i as well) then does that mean it will be cheaper (relatively) than non-international cameras like the hvx, in australia/europe cause they only need to make 1 model ?

[FatDaddy]

This is a nice option to think through. Not a Sony fan, but if price comes in decent, could be a solid choice. We will see...

[Simon Wyndham]

If it ever does get released

No 'ifs' The release is a definite.

[FatDaddy]

November is what is being said...

[William_Robinette]

And $8k list (rumored).

[themagickite]

is it really gonna be 8k you think?

the hvx makes that look expensive, but the xlh1 makes it look quite reasonable

how much difference will 1/3" > 1/2" really make? in terms of DOF?

[Simon Wyndham]

But wouldn't you seriously consider the Panny HPX550 at $14k instead?

Why? The 500 is a 2/3" shoulder mount camera. The EX is meant as a competitor to the HVX200.

[sick boy]

but the sony uses interframe compression doesn't it? is'nt that enough reason to stick with the hvx? it looks like they are competing with the varicam market now so it is a question of codec and storage card prices. the express34 cards are much smaller meaning they may need smaller ships, like microsd increasing the price significantly. if it would be my guess, this is where sony made a mistake, they should of went express54 for the physical capacity to use bigger, cheaper storage chips. my biggest gripe with panny is they used cardbus and the lack of cardbus support currently, but if that reduces the price like we have seen this weekend, then maybe it is not so bad.

[Simon Wyndham]

how much difference will 1/3" > 1/2" really make? in terms of DOF?

A lot. In fact if it is the same CCD set as the current XDCAM HD cameras it will make a big difference because of the way they have implemented it using more of the CCD surface area. To be honest when I use the XDCAM HD full size camera I didn't notice that much difference between it and the 2/3" cameras.

[FatDaddy]

Some sites (all speculation) list the price to be competitive with the HVX. One place said $8,000, one said "maybe cheaper than the HVX"

[Simon Wyndham]

it looks like they are competing with the varicam market

With a Handycam? I doubt it. Have you checked the price of the Express Cards recently?

[William_Robinette]

but the sony uses interframe compression doesn't it? is'nt that enough reason to stick with the hvx?

It will be different for everybody.

Lets just assume the image is a good one (can compete w/ the HVX's image), I would go with Sony hands down if they are the same price. 1/2" chip latitude and express card recording, plus full integration (seemless) with Vegas 7 (my editor of choice) and 35mbps if good enough for me to abandon intraframe recording.

Granted, this is based on a lot of contingents we won't know until the unit ships.

A big plus is the fact that the lens looks fully manual (like the DVX/HVX).

[Simon Wyndham]

A big plus is the fact that the lens looks fully manual

It is indeed. Not just for zoom, but for focus and iris. The lens is being made by Fujinon.


plus full integration (seemless) with Vegas 7

Full compatibility in 1080i/p modes is assured because it records to exactly the same 35Mbps file format as the current XDCAM HD cameras. Combine it with the PDW-U1 and you have a really good archive plan to XDCAM discs because the MXF files and metadata will copy straight over using PDZ-1.

[panaboy]

Panasonic is in big trouble with the release of this camera, they must respond immediately with a drop in p2 card prices.

[Nik Manning]

100% Agree that's exactly what I'm thinking. If canon makes or teams with someone to produce some sort of portable capture unit for HD-SDI, they reach new markets with and breathe new life without making a new camera.

Isn't that what the AJA io-hd ProRes 422 does? I think that is breathing some serous new life into these cameras. If you can capture to ProRes from a Canon HV20 that would be so damn cool. It is a tad pricey at $3500 but it has every input known to man on the back of it.

[Nik Manning]

My bet is the price will be no higher than $5999 and no lower than $4499. It is a prosumer camera and they are definetly trying to steal the HVX200's thunder. When I first saw the image I thought someone put a damn Sony sticker on the HVX. :)

[LuckyStudio 13]

IF its not too outrageously expensive like the $9000 H1 and somewhat near Hvx ballpark, this thing will ROCK !

[Rowlander]

"MPEG 2 - Long GOP (25 Mbps CBR / 35 Mbps VBR)"

25 Mbps CBR, that´s the same specs as HDV, right? Doesn´t get me excited since I own a great HDV camcorder.

35 Mbps VBR sounds good, although I´m not sure I would "trust" the variable bitrate. Does anybody have experience with this compression?

You get 40 minutes in that quality onto a 16 gig card.


The 1/2" chips are great. My XH A1 has 1/3" and sometimes I wish I had more DOF. The fully manual lens is also very cool. But will that mean no auto-focus? (Like with the JVC?)
These two features make me wonder, if that camcorder can really be priced at 6000 $. My guess would also be 8000.

[William_Robinette]

Guys, understand that 1/2" chips compared to 1/3" chips is not going to give a much more shallow DoF. I would look for better latitude and more sensitivity for pluses over anything else.

[esp]

In one site I read around 4000 GBP. That's roughly USD6000

[ecking]

Isn't that what the AJA io-hd ProRes 422 does? I think that is breathing some serous new life into these cameras. If you can capture to ProRes from a Canon HV20 that would be so damn cool. It is a tad pricey at $3500 but it has every input known to man on the back of it.

Yeah but the AJA isn't a portable capture unit, it's great if you're in the studio or you got some kind of video village going on, but not so great for location shoots.

[Milezee]

In one site I read around 4000 GBP. That's roughly USD6000
Um, try closer 8000USD in todays exchange rates...

[snowleopard]

True Ecking, that is what I think Canon could hope to figure out.

I hadn't seen the photo, but didn't know this new Sony was fixed lens. It looks pretty darned good, but The price will have to be close to the Panny, and the Express Cards will have to really undercut the P2 cards. Panny is still going to say that this is an HDV camera, and theirs is DVCPROHD, with true overcranking.

[William_Robinette]

I'm guessing the express cards will undercut P2 for the simple reason that it is not a niche product. It is not only intended for cameras and therefore there are many different companies making it.

[snowleopard]

Good point that could really work in Sony's favor.

Any clue on proposed release date on this thing?

[Tzedekh]

it looks like they are competing with the varicam market
With a Handycam? I doubt it. You're probably right -- but, then again, it is branded with "CineAlta."

[Zack Vohaska]

100% Agree that's exactly what I'm thinking. If canon makes or teams with someone to produce some sort of portable capture unit for HD-SDI, they reach new markets with and breathe new life without making a new camera.

I would go with Canon in a heartbeat if I could capture HD-SDI to a portable capture device; however, this would not be compatible with the XL-H1; we'd need a revision like an H1s or H2 because the current Canon XL-H1 jackpack doesn't output audio in the stream, so... unless you plan on recording audio to a separate device or something, than no, this would not be viable.

[Simon Wyndham]

it is branded with "CineAlta."

CineAlta Silver, not CineAlta gold. Just like the XDCAM HD 1/2" model for which this camera is intended as a companion to.

[Simon Wyndham]

35 Mbps VBR sounds good, although I´m not sure I would "trust" the variable bitrate. Does anybody have experience with this compression?

Yes, a lot, on the XDCAM HD 1/2" shoulder mount cameras. It works so well I know of some very fussy graders that do work for the BBC who found that they could push it further in post than HDCAM. Also the 35Mbps VBR codec is allowed by both Discovery HD and another major channel that Sony will announce at NAB for unrestricted acquisition. That is to say that they are happy for you to shoot an entire programme for them with it. Discovery apparently absolutely love the PDW-350. And believe me, to pass the Discovery HD approval tests the codec was tortured going through not only very harsh grading tests, but also being tested to destruction through the entire broadcast chain with recompressions etc that it would have to go through. It passed with flying colours.

The fact that this new camera uses possibly the same 1/2" chips as its bigger brother may mean that they will accept footage from this camera in the same way. Something that they won't allow with the HVX200 due to the 1/3" chips. Speculation of course, but I would e surprised if they didn't accept this camera in the same way as the 350.

[snowleopard]

That (hopefully) diffuses that concern with VBR and compression, or most concerns that it won't match what Panasonic is doinh with the HVX and DVCPROHD.

Release date?

[LuckyStudio 13]

I know it is going to cost more than that dang Sony Z1, because they are not going to cannibalize their own market. So my guess is, the price is going to be whatever the Z1 cost, and add 2000-3000 bucks.

[Camera Expert]

It’s most likely a 3 CMOS based camera
Scroll down until you see a graphic of the XDCAM EX with a 16 gig card next to it.
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158

Panasonic could still compete if they release an HVX200 replacement with the AVC 100mbps codec.

[Simon Wyndham]

I know it is going to cost more than that dang Sony Z1, because they are not going to cannibalize their own market.

Tapeless is where Sony is headed, and the gap is closing. The last info I received was that it would be around 4k GBP, or at the current exchange rate around $8k. Not too bad considering what it is and does.


It’s most likely a 3 CMOS based camera

Don't read anything from that concept drawing. For example that concept drawing says that the lens is Canon. It isn't, in reality the lens is made by Fujinon. It also says XMCAM, when it is actually an XDCAM camera.

Its 3CCD. And I'll bet its the same CCDs from the current XDCAM HD cameras. I'll confirm or disprove this as soon as I can.

[themagickite]

so i got 2 conflicting answers about the DOF

i myself couldn't really see there being that huge a difference after looking at this
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

but there would be some difference of course, i just wonder how much, the camera i've been using lately is 3 x 1/6" sensors, such a pain trying to work with

simon, you said you couldn't really tell the difference between 1/2" sony xdcam and 2/3"? does that mean you could get 16mm type DOF out of this thing?

the lens on this looks amazing, i remember back in high school when i started studying media and photography and i always asked "why don't they make video cameras with lenses like photographic cameras?" seemed a no-brainer to me, well it looks like panasonic have managed to change the paradigm now that other brands are trying to out-do them in regard to real lenses on small cameras, awesome, this is what i've been waiting for!

[Huy Vu]

It’s most likely a 3 CMOS based camera
Scroll down until you see a graphic of the XDCAM EX with a 16 gig card next to it.
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158

Panasonic could still compete if they release an HVX200 replacement with the AVC 100mbps codec.

I would take most of the info in that article with a grain of salt since the writer is obviously pro-Sony and anti-Pannasonic. There's a lot of unsupported generalizations in there. But the fact remains that if this camera actually come out and it's priced comparable to a Z1 or HVX, it's going to seriously disrupt the HVX market, simply because:

1/3'' CCD vs 1/2'' (CMOS or CCD?)
Prorietary P2 card vs. widely available solid state media
Finally a true manual lense!

These main factors would probably cause a lot of HVX users to jump ship. This is of course assuming that the camera performs as expected and Pannasonic doesn't come out with a competing model. Heck, the chip size alone is enough of an argument in favor of the Sony.

[Jason Ramsey]

It looks like it's going to be one (1) 1/2" sensor. Probably Cmos (if I had to guess).

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/17562/1176784924.jpg

1 sensor? We'll see.
Looks like it does PAL and NTSC. That'd be cool.
Variable framerates 1-60. Cool
Expresscard. Cool.
MPEG-2 @ 4:2:0. Not too cool to me.
25Mbps... Meh. Wouldn't that be pretty highly compressed?
35Mbps... Variable bit rate??? hmm...

Looks like a couple of potential nice things, but it may have some *considerable* tradeoffs. (depending on who you are, and how you are looking at it).

Guess we will find out when it gets here, anyways.

I do wonder about whether you truly can just use any expresscard ssd, or not. They make mention of the SxS. Wouldn't be like Sony to have a non-proprietary format recording/storage device like that. Would be a smart move though.

[themagickite]

i'd laugh if panasonic (not to be outdone) released a 2/3" cam in the same form factor

[Kholi]

Don't count on it. And I wouldn't even get started talking about this camera until some footage shows up. Had high hopes for the V1U, don't even think about it now. The image was just... not my sorta image to say the least.

Wait for the footage. Unless you just love Sony footage then cool.

[Simon Wyndham]

simon, you said you couldn't really tell the difference between 1/2" sony xdcam and 2/3"? does that mean you could get 16mm type DOF out of this thing?

No, not 16mm (you can't really do that with a 2/3" either). Depth of field control is much easier with 1/2" over 1/3" though. With these chips especially, possibly because Sony are using much more of the CCD surface area (ie a bigger capture area on the chip) than is usual.


studying media and photography and i always asked "why don't they make video cameras with lenses like photographic cameras?"

They did at one time. Sitting next to me is an old Sony Hi-8 camcorder about the same size as a PD-150, with a fully manual lens, focus and zoom marking, and macro functionality. It even has a B&W CRT viewfinder. The reason for servo mounts is cost and that the companies think that people who use those sorts of cameras don't need that sort of control. They are of course wrong.


I would take most of the info in that article with a grain of salt since the writer is obviously pro-Sony and anti-Pannasonic.

With good reason, as you would know if you'd ever been a magazine writer and written about Panasonic products! Its like writing a review at knifepoint.


1 sensor? We'll see.

No, its three. http://www.tapelessrev.com.


MPEG-2 @ 4:2:0. Not too cool to me.

Tell that to the people at Discovery HD and National Geographic, the most fussy broadcasters on the planet. They love it and accept it unrestricted.


35Mbps... Variable bit rate??? hmm...

Try using one and reading the comments of others who have actually used it (including Discovery and National Geographic) before making such a comment. Its been on the XDCAM HD disc based cameras for the last two years.

[dvxlover]

The Sony looks really nice. There has not been a lot of discussion on the lens. Coming from Fujinon a fully manul is something that I like, given that picture quality stands up to the reputation that the producer has.

One important thing; for run and gun e.g. news gathering a lens like this can be of great help. With I full size ring for iris, just like on the bigger lens so that you can work all this with your left hand (hate the smaller iris dials). And I am also looking at if you can work the zoom to with your left hand when having the camera on tripod, just as on a bigger camera. As I understand the importance for using the zoom ring manually for some, it has no value for me. What I need is a really fast zoom for, zooming in, focusing and pulling out again. My DVX has always been slow on this point.

And you cannot overlook the costs of storage here. The difference is huge.

I would very much like to hear from someone here who knows well, without bias, the full story on p2 vs. this and the statements on Sony's solution being the future.

[StMad]

1/2" chips should result in less noise, better exposure latitude and better lowlight capability than 1/3" ccds (with all else being equal). Bigger chips on prosumer cameras is definately something to look forward to.

Simon, based on what we know, how do you think this will perform in comparison with your own cam? (F330, right?)

And do you have experience with the HVX? I'm wondering how your footage holds up to cc'ing compared with the HVX's 4:2:2 (or something like) colour space?

[Jack_Felis]

You know, it's funny. Looking at the camera in person, it looks like the camera is getting smaller but the lenses aren't and this is further enhanced by it being an integrated lense versus interchangeable.

The express cards are tiny too. I expect good things to come out of it once it's released. But then again, Panasonic and Canon have an opportunity to one up them if they get their acts together soon.

[Simon Wyndham]

but the lenses aren't

Thats because lenses are reliant on the laws of physics.

[KMR]

Thats because lenses are reliant on the laws of physics.

Yeah, it's really neat how they're able to defy the laws of physics on all the other parts of the camera! When are they going to get around to it with lenses? (sorry, couldn't resist...)

[shaocaholica]

Yeah, it's really neat how they're able to defy the laws of physics on all the other parts of the camera! When are they going to get around to it with lenses? (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Electronics and optics are bound by different laws of physics. Electronics are shrinking because there are tons of other industries pumping huge sums of money and research into developing cheaper, smaller, faster and more energy efficient "chips". Optics on the other hand don't get that much love and are bound by different restrictions. Think of a car, you can fit all the electronics needed to run it, entertainment and navigation systems into a tiny little cigar box these days and still run it from a small battery. Try re-sizing the internal combustion engine to 1/4 its size and still maintain the same power output.

[ecking]

I would go with Canon in a heartbeat if I could capture HD-SDI to a portable capture device; however, this would not be compatible with the XL-H1; we'd need a revision like an H1s or H2 because the current Canon XL-H1 jackpack doesn't output audio in the stream, so... unless you plan on recording audio to a separate device or something, than no, this would not be viable.

Oh yeah I forgot that the H1 doesn't do that and the G1 does. Damn.

[KMR]

Electronics and optics are bound by different laws of physics. Electronics are shrinking because there are tons of other industries pumping huge sums of money and research into developing cheaper, smaller, faster and more energy efficient "chips". Optics on the other hand don't get that much love and are bound by different restrictions. Think of a car, you can fit all the electronics needed to run it, entertainment and navigation systems into a tiny little cigar box these days and still run it from a small battery. Try re-sizing the internal combustion engine to 1/4 its size and still maintain the same power output.

I'm wasn't denying anything that you say here. I was just making a joke about what could have been taken as an implication that the non-optical parts of the camera aren't bound by any laws of physics. (Anything regarding "different laws of physics" is irrelevant to the point.)

[kyle_doris]

it's called VTEC

[androbot2084]

One thing I like about the XDCAM EX is that is supports 720p at 60 frames per second so that means that it can whip pan circles around those bigger slow poke XDCAMS that max out at only 30 frames per second.

[kyle_doris]

so it's not running the normal XDCAM HD? seem rather odd...

[androbot2084]

No this is one of Sony's first multiformat cameras. The old XDCAM HD cameras only support 1080i and 1080p but the new XDCAM's will support 1080i 1080p and 720p just like the Panasonic cameras do.

[Simon Wyndham]

Yes. It makes good sens too with the EBU in Europe seemingly favouring 720p and possibly losing out to networks in the US that prefer 720 as well. Its about time really even if I don't think that 720 is the future.

Sonys new monitors that they have announced this week can actually display 1080 at 60p. The CCD's in their high end cameras (the same CCD's that are used in the new 2/3" XDCAM HD) can also capture 1080 at 60p too because Sony believes this is where things are headed. But the recording systems and output are not able to take this signal. I'll try to find out some more on this.

[TimurCivan]

Full compatibility in 1080i/p modes is assured because it records to exactly the same 35Mbps file format as the current XDCAM HD cameras. Combine it with the PDW-U1 and you have a really good archive plan to XDCAM discs because the MXF files and metadata will copy straight over using PDZ-1.

dont forget a yu may need an even more powerfull computer to decode XDcam on the fly while editing. it is still Mpeg based isnt it?

[TimurCivan]

I think this machine looks GREAT! im very excited by it! I hope its amazing! it will make a nice companion for my HVX200.

[kyle_doris]

This MPEG-2 thing shouldn't really be that much of an issue as we go further... i would worry more about the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 honestly.

If this camera got great results i'd def consider it but honestly, by the time it comes out i might already splurge for 2 16GB P2 cards so... who knows...

[bikefilms]

I've been privy to some great video footage shot behind-the-scenes with a Sony Rep.

The sensor is a completely new type, named CANTTELL.

The new CANTTELL sensor is a 1/2 inch, and yes, there will be three of them in the new EX.

I'm editing the video, posting to YouTube soon.

-andrew

[kyle_doris]

youtube... bah, how can you know anything from a youtube clip... post something with more robust codecs please :)

[William_Robinette]

YouTube is the worst possible place to put such footage.

Register here and post something in well compressed H.264:
http://www.stickypod.com/videos/index.php

[mule ferguson]

Post HD content here.

Mule Ferguson


http://www.zudeo.com/az-web/details/ULZCZJJOGRIZ6OVZHC23KJ5OEBSFU6EQ.html

[mule ferguson]

This was shot with the FX1 Sony
Mule

http://www.zudeo.com/az-web/details/7PI3TCTOJ45ZQTJVA6BGAUA7RP7R6K3O.html

[ripupthehwy]

I'm sticking with my Panasonic hvx. Don't like sony enough to ditch the DVCPRO HD format for XDCAM mpeg.

[v3rlon]

Yeah, it's really neat how they're able to defy the laws of physics on all the other parts of the camera! When are they going to get around to it with lenses? (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Well, some of those aren't laws, just perceptions (like the infamous 'Moore's law' limit in computer chips - there are at least dozens of ways around it, whenever we get around to being able to manufacture them).

However, the wavelengths of visible light are pretty much fixed. The scale of the world is pretty much fixed. A few other variables like this sort of lock in half the equation and leave the lens designers without much room to play.

This, in turn, adds to the whole DOF problem.

Meanwhile, back in the day, I am sure cinematographers everywhere were cursing the lack of DOF on their cameras and hating film grain.

Now we pay extra for these 'features' to be added back to us.

It seems strange that we are deliberately crippling solid technology to make it look like it is as limited as the older stuff.

[William_Robinette]

It seems strange that we are deliberately crippling solid technology to make it look like it is as limited as the older stuff.


Yup, but it is a comfort zone.

[Elton]

I fully agree.


This camcorder will be a force even if it’s priced at around 10 to 12 thousand dollars and what’s to say Sony won’t release an HDV version with the same size chips.

Another thing I think will make this camera sell well: It actually has the "CineAlta" badge emblazoned on it. Lots of people would love to see that on the side of their camera, just as much as DVCPRO HD.

[Elton]

Isn't that what the AJA io-hd ProRes 422 does? I think that is breathing some serous new life into these cameras. If you can capture to ProRes from a Canon HV20 that would be so damn cool. It is a tad pricey at $3500 but it has every input known to man on the back of it.

Yeah, but the I/O HD requires AC so it's not a perfect field solution like a Firestore. An I/O HD combined with a MacBook Pro makes a nice alternative to dedicated capture devices like the Wafian. It also cross-converts on-the-fly so you can capture 1080i shot for slowmo as 720 60p, in addlition to converting 720 to 1080i on the fly.

[John Trent]

I've been privy to some great video footage shot behind-the-scenes with a Sony Rep.

The sensor is a completely new type, named CANTTELL.

The new CANTTELL sensor is a 1/2 inch, and yes, there will be three of them in the new EX.

I'm editing the video, posting to YouTube soon.

-andrew

Andrew,

Are the new CANTTTELL sensors CMOS of CCD? How did the latitude look? Most HD camcorders have a dark contrasty look, not much dynamic range. Did it show ANY of the V1 problems - rolling shutter, "oil paint effect", "marching ant noise", blockiness, reduced resolution in low light - hi gain settings?

Sorry for all the questions. Please answer what you can. Looking forward to your video. Thank you for your help.

[John Trent]

Simon Wyndham,

You knew what Sony had in store for us. I read your hints over at dvinfo. Do you have any information about a "Z2" coming in July, as has been talked about here:

http://www.slashcam.de/info/Sony-HVR-Z2E-136474.html

Translation: Sony answers to Panasoncic's AG-HVX 200 challenge with its HVR-Z2E, expected to be on the market in July. It should have a 20x changeable zoom lens 5.4 - 108 mm, size 16x20x38, wight 2600 grams. Filter size is 72 mm (as with the Z1). Clip resolution is 3x1700 000 pixels. Manual shutter speed 1/3 - 1/16'000 sec. Vertical resolution 611 LP, horizontal resolution 700 LP (up to now it was 486 LP), which will be optimal for the 16:9 format. The price will be around 7'500 Euros. More information on www.sonybiz.net.

Thanks.

Hey, does anybody have anything to add about a Z2? Did anybody ask about it at NAB?

[Simon Wyndham]

I'm afraid I don't know anything about a Z2. My information comes from many sources (I'm not as 'in' with Sony as some make out). Sounds like the link you translated refers to the EX. Although there is a shoulder mounted HDV camera with a similar look and lens style to the DSR250.

I don't really know much about what the consumer division get up to.

[KMR]

Well, some of those aren't laws, just perceptions (like the infamous 'Moore's law' limit in computer chips - there are at least dozens of ways around it, whenever we get around to being able to manufacture them).

No, I was talking about real laws, not things like Moore's law. Which was my whole point, put in the form of a joke. (Which apparently didn't get across, unfortunately. I'll work on my delivery.)

[Elton]

dont forget a yu may need an even more powerfull computer to decode XDcam on the fly while editing. it is still Mpeg based isnt it?

It's as easy to edit as HDV if you have a relatively current, powerful computer. I've transcoded HD SDI stuff to XDCAM 35 mbs VBR (it's a readily available QT codec for editing and transcoding) and it edits about the same as HDV...which is to say that it works, but it's not ideal for complicated, fx-heavy edits.

[Ryan Harrell]

So I talked to someone who knows more about this camera and hes saying sony is gonna charge about 8 Grand for this camera....but damn

[cgravat]

So is it definite that the color space will be 4:2:0 ?

For me this would be the big deal breaker, because the color of the HVX's 4:2:2 is way too brilliant to abandon.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL

[Barry_Green]

Yes it'll be 4:2:0. All XDCAM HD is currently 4:2:0. It's using the same long-GOP MPEG-2 recording as their existing products, at the same bit rates (18, 25, and 35 megabits).

[cgravat]

Any thoughts on how the codec holds up as far as color information is concerned.

Panasonic just needs to make an express card version of the HVX with a proper lens then it'd have the market cornered, seems so at least.

[Camera Expert]

Here is what I want the successor of the HVX200 to be:
Obviously get rid of the tape drive.
Increase the size of the imagers to match the XDCAM EX and make sure the pixel count is at a minimum of 1280x720.
They will use the 50mbps AVC-Intra codec but if they really wanted to kill the XDCAM-EX, they would also use the 100mbps AVC-Intra codec that its bigger brothers are using.
If there is enough room, add at least 1 or 2 more P2 card slots.As for Sony, they better make sure the XDCAM EX uses their new 50mbps MPEG 2 codec.

[cgravat]

isn't that new 50mbps mpeg2 codec 4:2:2?? seems like i remembered reading that somewhere.

[Camera Expert]

isn't that new 50mbps mpeg2 codec 4:2:2?? seems like i remembered reading that somewhere. It is


Sony is going to use the 50mbps MPEG2 codec in their upcoming XDCAM camera with 2/3” CCDs. They claim the XDCAM EX wont use that codec but I think it should to fend off against the successor of the HVX200.

[LuckyStudio 13]

4:2:0 ?? meh

[harddrive]

So is it definite that the color space will be 4:2:0 ?

For me this would be the big deal breaker, because the color of the HVX's 4:2:2 is way too brilliant to abandon.

(and) Any thoughts on how the codec holds up as far as color information is concerned.

Chris - don't get too hung up on the numbers. The colour of the HVX may well be very pleasing, but I think it may well be due to factors other than colour space, and here we are making a comparison with a camera not yet shipping. I can't but see that certain aspects of that will be very positive (true manual lens, for starters) but let's compare actual pictures when the EX is available.

And "4:2:2", "4:2:0" never tell you the whole story in isolation. For 720, DVCProHD luminance resolution is 960x720, with the chrominance channels 480x720. That compares with a 4:2:0 system with lum res 1280x720, chrom res 640x360. In other words, the 4:2:0 system actually has better horizontal luminance AND chrominance resolution, at the expense of vertical chrom res!

Without defining what "4" refers to, colour space ratios can be very misleading. 4:2:0 certainly shouldn't be seen as a deal breaker.

[Gordon Prince]

The fully manual lens...will that mean no auto-focus? (Like with the JVC?)
Good question indeed.

[harddrive]

From the photos ( http://www.tapelessrev.com/xdcamnab2007.html and scroll to the CU of the lens barrel) the lens clearly has four switches - manual/auto for iris AND FOCUS, manual/servo for the zoom, and on/off for the macro. And in manual the controls behave like a "proper" lens with true end stops.

I can't really think how that could be improved on.

[Simon Wyndham]

Yes, the camera will indeed have a fully manual lens. Notice also the gearing that will take any industry standard follow focus.

There are a few more surprises waiting in the wings regarding this camera. All will come out in time :-)

[Darth Bunnykins]

Simon,

Are yor privy to some of these "few more surprises..."?

[Claw]

Wow! A good camera from Sony.

This camera looks seriously awesome - I was thinking of buying an HVX or two, but I am holding off now for more details on RED Mini and this cam.

Is XDCAM 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? It would suck if this recorded in 4:2:0 or 4:1:1 or something... Pulling good keys is important for me (although I hear that you can do quite well with HDV...)

EDIT:
I see that the colour space has been discussed, and it's either 4:2:0 with the older XDCAM codec, or 4:2:2 if they use the new one, right?

[TimurCivan]

they arent gonna usethe new one. ( though they should)

but XDcam looks pretty good. it still can exhibit compression artifacts, but MUCH milder than HDV does.

The only time HDV/XDcam can be trouble is if there like, a low light situation, lots of movemnet and flashbulbs.

[Barry_Green]

Is XDCAM 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? It would suck if this recorded in 4:2:0 or 4:1:1 or something...
It's 4:2:0.


I see that the colour space has been discussed, and it's either 4:2:0 with the older XDCAM codec, or 4:2:2 if they use the new one, right?
The new one carries an MPEG422 label and a 50-megabit data rate. There was no indication that the little cam would use that codec, their presentations specifically said 18/25/35 megabit. Of course there's still a good 6 or 7 months before it comes out, so anything might happen between now and then.

[AbracadabraFilms]

The XDCAM EX camcorder will make the most sense in small production systems, where the shooter and editor is often the same person,” Ott said. “In this type of production environment, you can easily control the flash media as it cycles between shooting and feeding the NLE.”

The planned camcorder is based on MPEG-2 compression technology with three, ½-inch imagers. It will be switchable between 1080/60i and 720/60P, and be capable of recording 1080/50i/30P/25P/24P and 720/50P. The camera will also have slow and quick motion functionality.

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/29851.html

[booth]

Chris - don't get too hung up on the numbers. The colour of the HVX may well be very pleasing, but I think it may well be due to factors other than colour space, and here we are making a comparison with a camera not yet shipping. I can't but see that certain aspects of that will be very positive (true manual lens, for starters) but let's compare actual pictures when the EX is available.

And "4:2:2", "4:2:0" never tell you the whole story in isolation. For 720, DVCProHD luminance resolution is 960x720, with the chrominance channels 480x720. That compares with a 4:2:0 system with lum res 1280x720, chrom res 640x360. In other words, the 4:2:0 system actually has better horizontal luminance AND chrominance resolution, at the expense of vertical chrom res!

Without defining what "4" refers to, colour space ratios can be very misleading. 4:2:0 certainly shouldn't be seen as a deal breaker.

I'd take that to a professional colorist and see what he thinks of it.

You can do a lot more with HVX200 footage than you can with any of the current 4:2:0 cameras out there. I see no reason why that should change. 4:2:0 breaks a lot quicker than DVCProHD HVX200 4:2:2, at least in our tests on a DaVinci2k.

On paper, maybe you are correct but in the grade I very much disagree.

For me 4:2:0 is always going to be a deal breaker.

I like the look of the new 4:2:2 camera from Sony. Only thing is that the Red looks better.

[cgravat]

I will most likely be sticking with the hvx. The sony will cost almost double what the hvx costs.

I know we don't exactly know all of the sony's tech specs yet, but this baby has a fixed lens. Not really all that ground breaking if you ask me. The express cards are cool, but my P2 workflow is flawless now and I'm just not ready to abandon it yet.

As for the xdcam is codec. If sony doesn't include their newest codec then in my eyes the picture will be inferior to the hvx.

This is of course all speculation by me. Sony's prosumer cams have let me down more than once in field, and as for the hvx it has never let me down. Not even once.

[Nik Manning]

I have to say that if the sony is under 7k it will be the GREAT camera of the year. I can't understand why there is so much doubt. Obviously this workflow will be amazing it is P2 without the high cost and slow transfers. The sony 35MB codec has 40% less compression than all the other hdv cameras. It has a real manual lens and 1/2 inch imager. Do you understand that you will be able shoot with a lot less light which normally means less setup time. Do you understand that you will be able to get a that beautiful depth of field that you always wanted. If the image quality is close to the f350 with more dynamic range than the hvx and priced under 7k it is the IT camera.

HVX200(6k) + 35mm adapter package(2k) = 8k
Sony XDCAM EX =7-8k

I normally hate how sony does things but thumbs up with this one. :)

[TimurCivan]

half inch chips arent going to eliminate the need for 35adapters.

though they will help with the light loss :)

i am excited for this machine. i really want it to be awesome. i will definitly get one if it reallly rocks hard.

[Nik Manning]

half inch chips arent going to eliminate the need for 35adapters.

though they will help with the light loss :)

i am excited for this machine. i really want it to be awesome. i will definitly get one if it reallly rocks hard.

It might eliminate the NEED for them. I do agree it isn't 2/3 chip but it should work for most situations. I wonder if there are any charts around here that show the differences in DOF between 1/3,1/2,2/3 chip, and film dof.

[TimurCivan]

the difference between a half inch and a third inch isnt much.... the back ground will go soft a TOUCH faster but thats it. on the wide end of the lens its going to be forver DOF again.

[Tibby]

Anybody remember the old Canon L2 Hi8 Cameras? They had 1/2 inch sensors. To my recollection the Shallow DOF capabilities were quite good with that camera.

[Simon Wyndham]

If the chip is anything like the one in the current XD HD line, the photosensitive area will go much further to the edges of the chip. The sensors in the current cameras actually have a larger pickup area than most 1/2" chips.

[Nik Manning]

If the chip is anything like the one in the current XD HD line, the photosensitive area will go much further to the edges of the chip. The sensors in the current cameras actually have a larger pickup area than most 1/2" chips.

Does that translate to a noticeable increase in depth of field?

[Barry_Green]

You can play with DOF numbers at the panavision.co.nz website's dof calculator to see for yourself what the difference would be.

[harddrive]

You can do a lot more with HVX200 footage than you can with any of the current 4:2:0 cameras out there. I see no reason why that should change. 4:2:0 breaks a lot quicker than DVCProHD HVX200 4:2:2, at least in our tests on a DaVinci2k............

For me 4:2:0 is always going to be a deal breaker.
But......... can you be sure that the problem is 4:2:0? I won't dispute your tests, but to draw the conclusion you do ("For me 4:2:0 is always going to be a deal breaker") you really need to keep all other variables constant - same compression, same bitrate, same resolution etc. If you don't, how can you be sure that it is the 4:2:0 that is causing the problem, and not some other parameter?

And are we talking about interlaced footage or progressive? For interlace I'll agree that 4:2:2 may have things to commend it over 4:2:0, but in progressive I find it conceivable that redistributing the samples to give extra luminance resolution MAY give better results overall. All else kept equal.

I like the look of the new 4:2:2 camera from Sony. Only thing is that the Red looks better.
Spec wise I agree, and I like the idea of wavelet compression over MPEG2, or DVCProHD for that matter.

[TimurCivan]

you really need to keep all other variables constant - same compression, same bitrate, same resolution etc. If you don't, how can you be sure that it is the 4:2:0 that is causing the problem, and not some other parameter?



Because if they made a 100mbps XDcam format camera, we probably would be using that. that kind of bandwidth would be a miracle on Mpeg encoding.

Look at the footage next time you get a chance. There is the standard DV like pixel blcoked Reds and blues in HDV.

The hvx200/Hpx500/Varicam etc. also pixelate the saturated colors, but the blockiness is 2x as fine. IT still pixelates, but its a finer pixelation. and that REALLY does make a difference regardless of what paper stats say.

[chuckey]

Geez guys a simple trip to Wikipedia confirms that
4:2:0

This scheme is found in:

All versions of MPEG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG), including MPEG-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2) implementations such as DVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD)AND

There are three variants of 4:2:0 schemes, having different horizontal and vertical siting.

In MPEG-2, Cb and Cr are cosited horizontally.
In JPEG/JFIF, H.261, and MPEG-1, Cb and Cr are sited interstitially, halfway between alternate luma samples.
In 4:2:0 DV, Cb and Cr alternate line by line.he MPEG-2 standard allows for an alternate interlaced sampling scheme where 4:2:0 is applied to each field (not both fields at once). This solves the problem of motion artifacts. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/444-original-single-field.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:444-original-single-field.png)
Original. *This image shows a single field. The moving text has some motion blur applied to it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/420-progressive-single-fiel.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:420-progressive-single-fiel.png)
4:2:0 progressive sampling applied to moving interlaced material. Note that the chroma leads and trails the moving text. *This image shows a single field.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/420-interlaced-single-field.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:420-interlaced-single-field.png)
4:2:0 interlaced sampling applied to moving interlaced material. *This image shows a single field.
In the 4:2:0 interlaced scheme however, vertical resolution of the chroma is roughly halved since the chroma samples effectively describe an area 2 samples wide by 4 samples tall instead of 2X2. As well, the spatial displacement between both fields can result in the appearance of comb-like chroma artifacts.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/420-original444.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:420-original444.png)
Original still image.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/420-progressive-still.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:420-progressive-still.png)
4:2:0 progressive sampling applied to a still image. Both fields are shown.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/420-interlaced-still.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:420-interlaced-still.png)
4:2:0 interlaced sampling applied to a still image. Both fields are shown.
If the interlaced material is to be de-interlaced, the comb-like chroma artifacts (from 4:2:0 interlaced sampling) can be removed by blurring the chroma vertically.[3] (http://www.dv.com/news/news_item.jhtml;?LookupId=/xml/feature/2003/wilt0603)[4] (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html)

[LuckyStudio 13]

When are they going to officially announce this camera ? I heard its by the end of this month (July) ?

[myCharlie]

I'm interested in this camera but I couldn't find anywhere on the exact release date. Any chance this camea will be released before the end of this year...like Christmas?

[William_Robinette]

I think October was the date set.

[myCharlie]

Thanks! By the way, I've read that the lens of the XDCam Ex is manual. So then I wonder if the lens is also interchangeble. Anyone know?

[snowleopard]

No. Unless they make some dramatic changes from the prototype images we've seen. (http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/16/sony-announces-xdcam-ex-prosumer-camcorder/)

[TimurCivan]

i wonder if its true manual or servo focus / manual zoom like hvx/dvx.

[William_Robinette]

Everything I have read points to it being a true manual lens, ala what you would find on a broadcast camera sans the ability to remove it. That alone is an extremely attractive feature.

[myCharlie]

It would be so nice if it has interchangeable lense. Does Panasonic has a competing model that has interchangeable lense capability?

[Barry_Green]

The least-expensive Panasonic with interchangeable lenses in HD would be the HPX500.

[myCharlie]

Wow. It's not cheap. Thanks for the info. But for the price of HPX500, I might go with the Red One camera.