PRO RES 4:2:2 codec - New From Apple [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

David Saraceno

04-15-2007, 01:15 PM

It is still sketchy but this new codec is 10 bit 4:2:2 with full raster and edit friendly.

Converts uncompressed or SD formats on the fly and automatically. For example an uncompressed 1 TB project is converted to highest quality at 170GB.

Motion now is fully integrated and editable from within FCP, and includes true 3D lights, particles, cameras, and dozens of GPU accelerated effects.

Not positive on every detail, but the big news at least is the 4:2:2 codec that "appears" to look every bit as good as uncompressed.

More . . .

Zak Forsman

04-15-2007, 01:24 PM

glad to see their version of DNxHD. hoping this can be accelerated with my existing Kona 3 cards.

David Saraceno

04-15-2007, 02:45 PM

Kholi

04-15-2007, 02:59 PM

Man Motion 3 is going to be the sickest. I love Motion, so this about made me cry when I read all the updates from Mike Curtis' blog. I can't freakin' wait.

But yeah, this codec is weird as heck. 1tb to 170gb? That's infreaking sane.

shiny4

04-15-2007, 03:04 PM

david,
i think yes!YOU CAN EDIT MXF NATIVELY
look AT THIS http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/specs.html

n8ture

04-15-2007, 03:08 PM

Native editing for P2 at 1080i 50/60/VFR and 720p 24/24N/25/25N/30/VFR from P2 cards
1080pA 24 (Advanced Pulldown) supported via FireWire from AJ-HD1200A and AJ-HD1400
P2 import dialog with browse, mark, and background ingest.

dvInsight

04-15-2007, 03:22 PM

Can anybody confirm FCP6 will edit MXF natively?

"With native support for virtually any format, Final Cut Pro lets you edit everything from uncompressed SD to HDV, DVCPRO HD, and uncompressed HD — as well as Panasonic P2 and Sony XDCAM HD tapeless formats."

In a word, No. From Apples FCP 6.0 page: http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/support.html

-----------------------
Tapeless formats
It’s easy to work with the latest high-speed, tapeless devices from Panasonic and Sony. Use the Log and Transfer function in Final Cut Pro for ingesting Panasonic P2 files or Sony’s free XDCAM Transfer software for ingesting 18-, 25-, and 35-Mbps XDCAM HD footage. Preview shots before you bring them in, add In and Out points, and incorporate metadata before you transfer files to save time when you get to the edit. Ingest tapeless files in the background at high speeds while you continue to edit or preview other material.
-------

But on the same page under Camera-native editing:

Final Cut Pro 6 lets you edit virtually anything natively. That means you’ll get pristine quality from the first cut to the final output. Final Cut Pro doesn't’t need to transcode video from camera-native formats — no matter whether it’s coming from a DV, HDV, or DVCPRO HD camera. Your output will always be as stunning as your original source. Final Cut Pro 6 supports a wide range of standard- and high-definition formats.

Standard Definition High Definition
DV, DVCPRO, DVCAM HDV
DVCPRO 50, IMX DVCPRO HD, XDCAM HD
Uncompressed 8- and 10-bit SD Uncompressed 8- and 10-bit HD

So it is basically still unwrapping the MXF file and leaving it in untouched DVCPRO HD. So as I see it, you still have to waste time unwrapping it, even though I don't think a pixel is changed of what was originally in the capture, which really sucks. Plus you have to make the executive decision to either keep or dump the MXF file after confirming your import.

Arghhhh. This one last thing really peeves me since FCP would be perfect if you did not have to do this.

David Wanger

04-15-2007, 03:37 PM

There seems to be contradictory info on the Apple site, it does mention native mxf at one point. But in order to do that, wouldn't it first have to go through a logging procedure to join together multiple files into large clips anyways? Maybe that's what the logging does, or maybe the bit about "native editing" is misleading.

dvInsight

04-15-2007, 04:33 PM

Yeah the website is misleading, but if you have to go through the P2import process, then you are essence importing twice. Once from P2 to drive, and once more from Drive into FCP.

So until I see that I can just drop the MXFs into a FCP Bin with out the P2 importer, then PCs still have an advantage. And this is coming from a 20+year Apple/Mac lifer. Sigh....

I mean realistically, at some point you have to rename the clips, but I would still rather just do it in FCP like any other .mov file and have FCP create the link to the original file.

Now maybe the new P2 importer has a little check box that says link, as opposed to unwrap. I doubt it.

David Saraceno

04-15-2007, 05:43 PM

As of Sunday night, it appears that nothing is clear on what is available for MXF natively with FCP6.

Hopefully, a NAB2007er can confirm something this week.

THoff

04-15-2007, 06:43 PM

Sure it would be nice if the logging wasn't required, but in the grand scheme of things, the time required to wrap the files into QT containers isn't that big a deal -- you spend alot more time working with the video, reviewing, rendering etc. than ingesting it. Also, there is no across-the-board advantage on the PC, how MXF files are handled is specific to the implementation of the NLEs.

The extra storage requirements bother me more, since you should consider the MXF files your negatives/originals.

Kholi

04-15-2007, 07:49 PM

Agreed. The extra storage is what gets me as well. And it's not like it's good extra storage, either. I honestly would rather be working from raw MXF files like the Edius system does, but I guess we can't have everything.

This new codec sure sounds like a charm though. Has anyone found out more info on how it managed to compress so well? Implementations for Hydra?

Zak Forsman

04-15-2007, 08:48 PM

This new codec sure sounds like a charm though. Has anyone found out more info on how it managed to compress so well?

it sounds the same as Avid DNxHD 145 and DNxHD 220. according to the web site there are two versions of ProRes 422. ProRes 422 which runs at 145mb/sec and ProRes 422 (HQ) which runs at 220mb/sec. just like DNxHD.

I don't know how they do it, but I do know that I cannot see a difference between uncompressed and DNxHD 220. i'm sure the Apple ProRes (HQ) is just as good.

nsoltz

04-15-2007, 10:17 PM

I've got a meeting with Apple on Monday morning and will raise the P2/native MXF question. I suspect that it still rewraps MXF into QT but will know the answer soon.

Ned Soltz

sick boy

04-15-2007, 10:23 PM

ohh thank you so much, my guess is that if they did add better support, we may be able to import each p2 volume into the bin and it would do wrapping auto and just put a folder with the name of the volume and the clips within, maybe then not making duplicate files in qt, using the folders like scratch.

either way it is not that bad, but from the little video on the FCP6 page, they discussed a whole new import tool, so maybe they increased the speed and capacity of the import tool

Barry_Green

04-15-2007, 10:33 PM

I went to the Panasonic press conference, and they set aside time for Apple actually at the Panasonic press conference. So I sat there waiting patiently for him to announce "native MXF support on the timeline." He talked on and on about how great a partnership Apple and Panasonic have, how Apple created the desktop editing HD system with their DVCPRO-HD support and how Panasonic did their part by including firewire on an HD deck, and on and on. So by now I've got baited breath, waiting to jump up and cheer when they announce native MXF editing, right?

Nothin'. He finished up and walked off the stage. No mention of new support in FCP6, no MXF editing.

Ain't gonna happen. Thanks a lot, Apple.

Kholi

04-15-2007, 10:46 PM

I guess it's just import panasonic p2 then.

Barry_Green

04-15-2007, 11:08 PM

Yeah, I'm about ready to give up the fight. Seems like Apple users really don't care. And Apple certainly doesn't care. I'm the only one screaming, and I'm the guy who doesn't even use the Mac!

Something tells me that when Apple users are waiting half an hour to import a 32GB card, whereas the guy next to 'em on Avid or Premiere or Vegas or Axio or EDIUS or Liquid or Leitch or ... well, just about any other editor ... is already done with their edit and moved on, well, I predict Apple users still won't care because hey, at least they're using a Mac, right?

Man this was disappointing. Forgive the bitterness, please, but -- fer cryin' out loud. You FCP guys don't know what you're missing. :)

Kholi

04-15-2007, 11:16 PM

Sorry! I was still under the impression that you had to use Raylight for Premiere or Vegas. Though Avid is pretty much a drop in the folder, right?

Maybe there Is something I'm missing... but Final Cut Studio 2 really looks... worth missing it.

Jason Ramsey

04-15-2007, 11:25 PM

You do have to use raylight, but now it lets you drop mxf's straight to the timeline without converting. And you can write back to the card.

Avid was a little weird from what I have read, but it seems they made it right on how you get your mxf's into the timeline with the new update announced at nab.

EDIUS is just... the way it should be. So effortless to work with p2. The P2 workflow and EDIUS go togethor like pb&j. I had 81 minutes of footage that I shot on two cams. yesterday. Took me about 20 minutes to offload all the footage. But, I didn't even have to wait that long to start working with the footage, because you can work off the card while it is being written to the HDD. Then, it is relinked to the HDD location when the transfer is complete. Effortless.

Apple's got me drooling with all of this stuff they can do, but then stabbed me with this news. It *almost* defeats the purpose of tapeless workflows if you have to spend your time converting. Especially (as Barry mentioned) when card sizes get bigger.

Right now, it's about 4-5 minutes for an 8 gig card to transfer for me. It's about 15 seconds for me before I can start editing the footage. Stick it in the lappy's pcmcia and go.

Geez, got off on a tangent a bit. :)

Jason

jcgardiner

04-16-2007, 12:03 AM

Its not so much the time wasted by having to wrap the footage within QT...I don't mind the time to go through footage...In fact you figure how many times you will see this footage over and over again throughout the edit...Not a big deal....You may not have to capture using other NLE systems but you sure as heck still have to log this footage and view it over and over again. Unless your trying to meet the 5'Oclock news deadline the time it takes to write out a QT file is marginal it sure is alot faster than jog and shuttling a tape back and forth setting in/out points waiting for it to rewind cue then hope to goodness there is no timecode breaks then wait for the capture in REALTIME. BUT I will say the real PITA with Apple's decision is having to hang onto the MXF files along with the newly created .Mov files.. As we all know we have two options and neither are ideal. One is to double your storage requirements or go ahead and ditch the .MXF files. And by the looks of it since FCP/Apple is unwilling to to use MXF files naitively why hang onto them??? I know what everyone says they are your negatives blah blah....but if you are invested in FCP what compelling reason is there to hang onto them.

Have not ditched the MXF files yet but I am seriously considering it. But you got to admidt the other goodies in FCP Studio 2 can make me look past the MXF file issue. Heck I'll be happy if Apple can with 100 percent certainty get the footage off the cards without being corrupt. I'll settle for that and call it a day.

All The Best

JG

arrestthisman

04-16-2007, 12:32 AM

I really don't mind the import process, especially since it discards the extra frames in 1080pa. I know it isn't much, but the storage adds up on long projects. Also, I can see the clips in quicktime after they're rewrapped.

I think because so many mac users use laptops, with the duel adapter, the import process, just plain old doesn't add much to the process, instead of copy to drive, and edit, import to dive and edit. Not a big deal. (And if you need to burn a copy of the original card on DVD, that takes a lot of time anyway.)

Still it would be nice. I don't think it will change though. I think Barry's right. (But when isn't he? :)

When 32gb comes out I wouldn't be surprised if there is an update that allows drag and drop MXF to the bin. That would be nice.

mvb

04-16-2007, 08:24 AM

When 32gb comes out I wouldn't be surprised if there is an update that allows drag and drop MXF to the bin. That would be nice.

We've developed a method to bring HVX200 clips into FCP without copying the files first, so you can edit directly off the card. I don't want to say much about it yet but it will be fairly cheap ($95) and easy to use. Raylight for Mac will be the name of the product. I have a crude version of it running now on my G5 with FCP HD (yes the old FCP). Hopefully in a week we can release more info.

TheFirstCause

04-16-2007, 03:45 PM

I'd buy the Raylight for Mac if it works, which apparently it does, haha. Even if Apple updates FCP in the future, I have projects I'd want to use it on in the immediate future.

Bob Fagan

04-16-2007, 06:50 PM

Raylight for Mac sounds cool. Will definitely buy something like that for under $100. It is too bad the MXF direct import is missing from FCP6, but when you look at everything else, the pluses of the whole FCP Studio set is pretty incredible.

I'm waiting to hear actual experience from NAB, but the editing multiple formats within the same timeline in realtime is just one feature that will alone for me at least, be worth the price of the upgrade.

Add on the new "Color" application, 3D in Motion (goodbye AfterEffects), FXplugin support, subtitle editor in DVD Studio Pro and the Dolby surround sound, Compressor's new features including WMV and mobile phone formats (goodbye Cleaner/Sorensen)...would say that despite the lack of direct MXF support, it's still a pretty decent upgrade.

boo

04-16-2007, 07:55 PM

so is it confirmed no native mxf in fcp 6? anyone from nab find out any info? thanks.

Barry_Green

04-16-2007, 09:37 PM

sick boy

04-16-2007, 10:17 PM

We've developed a method to bring HVX200 clips into FCP without copying the files first, so you can edit directly off the card. I don't want to say much about it yet but it will be fairly cheap ($95) and easy to use. Raylight for Mac will be the name of the product. I have a crude version of it running now on my G5 with FCP HD (yes the old FCP). Hopefully in a week we can release more info.

Is it possible you can elaberate on how the process may eventually work? That is is it as easy as keeping the p2 volumes on a seperate drive (like the scratch disk) and just drag the volume folders into fcp's bin and then go straight to editing?

if this is so, then rock on, since panasonic's and apple's cat fight is another man's treasure. under a 100 is a plus, since you start to add up all the little things panny and apple dont do, like p2 log pro, p2 genie, and all the other little third party softwares and you have a hit to the pocket book.

thank you for finally standing up and doing something about the situation!

arrestthisman

04-16-2007, 11:09 PM

WOW! MXF into FCP, that's awesome. 95 bucks. Perfect.

This would be perfect for 720pn footage with extensive metadata from a PC ingest to Mac-Editing workflow.

For 1080p I'll stick with import due to the stripping of frames and the slightly lower bandwidth. ... That is unless Raylight can do this in realtime?

Mike McNeese

04-17-2007, 06:57 AM

I'm a bit peeved that Apple didn't include MXF in this rev of FCP. I mean, if not now...when!? We get an FCP upgrade every two years...

Good to hear that there will be some options out there, though!

The other new features look pretty sweet, but I'm thinking I'll wait to upgrade until I NEED it.

Barry_Green

04-17-2007, 07:53 AM

For 1080p I'll stick with import due to the stripping of frames and the slightly lower bandwidth. ... That is unless Raylight can do this in realtime?
It does it for the PC, so I wouldn't be surprised if The Wizard of Austin makes it do so for the Mac as well. Raylight rules, seriously.

Barry_Green

04-17-2007, 07:55 AM

I'm a bit peeved that Apple didn't include MXF in this rev of FCP. I mean, if not now...when!? We get an FCP upgrade every two years...
Don't ever count on it happening, they're simply not going to do it. But what I find delightful is that a giant mega-developer like Apple can't figure out how to make it happen, but a tiny shop in Texas can do it so quickly. Either way, with any luck we'll finally get native MXF editing on the timeline. Raylight has made Vegas and Premiere Pro viable HVX editing platforms, so having Raylight on the Mac is just the total icing on the cake.

David Saraceno

04-17-2007, 09:28 AM

No native MXF in FCP6.

But, once again, looks like MVB and DVFilm are going to do what Apple won't. If Raylight for the Mac works as well as Raylight for the PC, it's going to be awesome! Great news, Marcus!

I really don't have an issue with 3rd parties stepping in to fill in the holes.

I do have a problem with the price points of some of the products, but on balance, it's fine.

I work differently than Barry, et al. He prefers to edit off the cards, and I don't see any usefulness in my workflow.

Barry is a tireless advocate. I'm glad he's pushing for the MXF native support in FCP. If it happens, great.

Otherwise it seems from the posts here that many Mac users are cool with the status quo on this issue

David Saraceno

04-17-2007, 09:30 AM

Barry, I don't know if the issue is whether Apple can achieve it, but rather whether it is a priority to Apple.

There are a lot of fish to fry, and DVCProHD support via p2 cards is only one fish.

Apple said that it has about 800K paid FCP seats out there.

What do you think the percentage of p2 card users are in there?

dregenthal

04-17-2007, 09:47 AM

yeah, who would want a bunch of silly little P2users to be included in the fun anyhow?

Just looking back a year at all the early fanfare, partners, etc.

My guess? It's not about priorities or fish . . . it is a deliberate decision, made because they can't stand the idea of people not editing in Quicktime, period.

Let's face it, If there weren't people like Marcus and David to develop this stuff what would your NLE options be today?

David Saraceno

04-17-2007, 10:06 AM

t is a deliberate decision, made because they can't stand the idea of people not editing in Quicktime, period.

QuickTime is what Apple's video technology is based on. I really don't see what point you are making.

The company is stockholder based. Apple is about making money.

If you read the responses, it appears that not many people in the Mac are clamoring to edit MXF files natively

Gregg

04-17-2007, 10:32 AM

So someone please explain something to the slow people

The DVFILM software will allow 100% native MXF editing. So absolutely ZERO of quality in the footage?

caseyhayward

04-17-2007, 10:36 AM

So Native MXF editing aside, will the Pro Res Codec benefit us DVCPRO HD users at all???

If it helps the answer, I primarily use 720pn.

Zak Forsman

04-17-2007, 11:30 AM

robotx21

04-17-2007, 12:08 PM

yes it will, casey. if it proves to be as good as Avid's DNxHD 220, which is just about indistinguishable from uncompressed. unlike DVCPROHD which can fall apart a bit (compare rendered text between uncompressed and DVCPROHD, you'll see a the difference).

From the Apple Reps at the NAB booth, I asked if ProRes422 would help me with DVCProHD footage. They said no. It's basically for people who have uncompressed HD footage, want to edit with SD file sizes with no visual quality loss. So it wouldn't help at all really. However, if you have the new Hydra from Reel-streams, which is uncompressed HD or 2k at 4:4:4...then ProRes422 would definately help...

On a side note...um...yeah, Red Camera is going to change the world...I can't even explain in words what I saw at the NAB booth...but to me, film is dead now.

Blaine

04-17-2007, 12:09 PM

In Apple's presentation, they show ProRes side-by-side with uncompressed footage and it is indistinguishable...even with splashing rain drops.

xray

04-17-2007, 12:32 PM

I know Apple bought -some months ago- an EU company that is specialized in the MXF format. So the tech and knowhow is there, but the basics in QT remain the same for a long time now, it is the container tech that is making QT so good and understandable...look back. Maybe they can deliver a faster unwrapping/wrapping process in the future...

But FCP 6 with all its new possibilities is a great tool to use, ProRes 422 is great, and the new QT version will enable it. And Color!!

robotx21

04-17-2007, 01:14 PM

In Apple's presentation, they show ProRes side-by-side with uncompressed footage and it is indistinguishable...even with splashing rain drops.

In addition to Blaine's Quote, they also said after they showed the footage, that the ProRes422 that was showing next to the uncompressed was on it's 10th Generation of compression! So for anyone that doesn't know, that means the uncompressed footage was compressed using the ProRes422 compression 10 times over iteslef. Most compressions you do that to degrades it quite a bit. And after 10 generations of ProRes422 compression, it still holds up to Full Uncompressed HD!! WOW!

Kholi

04-17-2007, 01:25 PM

From the Apple Reps at the NAB booth, I asked if ProRes422 would help me with DVCProHD footage. They said no. It's basically for people who have uncompressed HD footage, want to edit with SD file sizes with no visual quality loss. So it wouldn't help at all really. However, if you have the new Hydra from Reel-streams, which is uncompressed HD or 2k at 4:4:4...then ProRes422 would definately help...

Exactly. That's what I was thinking. For Hydra and Red this is going to be a really good thing.

Pairing this with Color as well... oi... the sickness is abound.

Eljoninjo

04-17-2007, 02:02 PM

Thanks robox21,
Just got my "aja lhe" last friday and its nice to hear that it still seams to be a good solutions with the dvcpro acceleration. Still waiting for the mac thou...hopefully tomorrow.

k2director

04-18-2007, 02:42 PM

Prores is 4:2:2, yes? So when you convert uncompressed HD footage in 4:4:4 (from whatever source), aren't you losing some color correction flexibility by going down to 4:2:2? How much?

Also, do the Varicam and HDCAM cameras work in 4:2:2 already, so if you convert their footage to Prores, I assume you're *NOT* losing any color space flexibility. Is that right?

Any guidance appreciated, thanks...

sick boy

04-18-2007, 08:27 PM

my biggest reason to edit in native mxf is double of storage. by using the import tool, we have a quicktime and mxf versions, it is hard to decide if you should delete the mxf files after importing. editing natively for me would be prefered because the mxf file format is easily transferable where quicktime may not be (i think, but i am probably wrong).

that and itis another step to the post process, i am sure if those that dont mind importing had the option to edit with native mxf format, they would edit with it inistead of importing it.

Look 1st

04-18-2007, 08:29 PM

SPZ

04-18-2007, 08:33 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in FCP, even if you erase the quicktimes, when you search for the media, it will detect the native mxf files you have stored and automatically convert them back to quicktime, so, basically, if you finish a project and erase the quicktimes, if you save the project file, it will automatically look for the media- and it will interpret the mxf native files back to quicktime. Right?