Brevis and an HV20.

[Elton]

Sorry, didn't have time to get some decent footage, but here's what the combo looks like with rails. :)

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10380/1175240235.jpg
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10380/1175240257.jpg
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10380/1175240279.jpg


This is actually a pretty cool lookin' little bazooka.

[ecking]

Now commence the footage posting!

[rawfa]

Elton, that looks like one of those 50's sci-fi weapons :D I can't wait to see more footage, though. My first impression was very very good. Did you need a 43mm-72mm step up ring? (is there such a ring?!) Was it hard aligning the entire combo vertically?

[Cryogenic Filmworks]

Now that is trippy looking.

[Elton]

Sorry for the tease, but it was another person's camera and I didn't have much time to really get the hang of the combo. Will have more time with it later on.

Don't know which step up ring was employed, but we actually used a RedRock achromat to focus on the ground glass. Supposedly you're not supposed to need an achromat, but in my brief encounter with the Brevis and HV20, it seems like it does actually need one.

[Elton]

btw, I found a funny little accidental LCD flip function...but it's kinda retarded.

If you flip the LCD forward, and slightly angled back and pulled towards the camera, it tricks the camera into flipping the upside down image right-side up. But it means that you have to stand beside or nearly in front of the camera for framing...but it works.

[Emanuel]

Sorry for the tease, but it was another person's camera Yes. I knew that set from somewhere...

LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89836)

There's the footage.

[Elton]

Here's one grab.

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10380/1175245368.jpg

I'm fairly new to the adapter thing so I know I didn't get maximum sharpness at all, but this combo definitely has potential.

[Emanuel]

Beautiful. Quite cinematic. Do you have any (more) footage (beyond that one already posted) ?

[Dennis Wood]

Elton, we should have an HV20 here in a day or two, so I should have some setup tips for you guys :-) Michael's studio looks very cool.

The HV20 is the first camera with a 43mm lens size that has ever needed an achromat with the Brevis adapter. Both the XH-A1 and now the HV20 need more stars (like the HVX) at close focus / framing. Michael should have our latest 72mm HD achromat in a few days which will work better with respect to sharpness.

[rawfa]

Man, that grab is incredible.

[rawfa]

Btw, how did you guys convince Ron Howard's son to appear on your tests? ;-)

[Kholi]

Very nice grab. The footage is also nice. CAn't believe it's coming from a Sub 1k 24p camera. LOL

[Elton]

Elton, we should have an HV20 here in a day or two, so I should have some setup tips for you guys :-) Michael's studio looks very cool.

The HV20 is the first camera with a 43mm lens size that has ever needed an achromat with the Brevis adapter. Both the XH-A1 and now the HV20 need more stars (like the HVX) at close focus / framing. Michael should have our latest 72mm HD achromat in a few days which will work better with respect to sharpness.

Thanks Dennis. It's funny, the HV20 seems to have pretty good close focus, but apparently just barely not enough to bypass the achromat. I can't wait to go back and shoot a little more with this combo. I actually brought my computer and tried some straight-uncompressed analog capture from the HV20/Brevis, but ran out of time before I could really get the hang of things so the footage wasn't up to snuff.

I will say that once you've got things adjusted properly, this could be a fairly potent pairing. I think the HV20 actually has less CA than the A1, for whatever reason. (less lens elements, no CCD prism ?)

I shot a fair amount of high contrast stuff and didn't have any fringing issues at all. I really love how easy it is to mount the Brevis on different cameras, but for some reason the HV20 seems to have a really solid, smooth image that it can put out from the adapter and good still lenses.

Lovin' your work with that adapter, Dennis, and I appreciate that you're working hard to improve the product. It shows. :)

[Elton]

Btw, how did you guys convince Ron Howard's son to appear on your tests? ;-)

:D

Chris was a good sport about standing in for just a couple shots. It helps so much to have an actual live person as a subject for quickie tests.

[Elton]

Very nice grab. The footage is also nice. CAn't believe it's coming from a Sub 1k 24p camera. LOL

You know what, Kholi? As crazy as it sounds to say, I actually think the HV20 might have the most solid 1080 24p core image in the entire prosumer/consumer category.

There's something about the smoooothness of this DSLR-descended CMOS chip and DIGIC II processing that is really sweet. I wish it was in my H1. :(

[Darth Bunnykins]

No question, the HV20 really seems to hold it's own in bright day light exteriors/well lit, bright interiors. But what about low or selective lit night exteriors or dark interiors.?

If a portion of the frame is perfectly exposed, but the majority of the rest of the frame is dark to black, will the camera struggle to show what is in the dark areas and futz it up with gain, making the black/dark areas really ugly/mushy/noisy?

Imagine the interior of Xanadu in Citizen Kane, where everything is black, except a door way, and a fire place, which a perfectly exposed.(I can't beleive I am using that movie as an example while asking about an inexpensive consumer camera!)

Or even an exterior city scape at night, where there is lots of lit buildings, signs, headlights, etc ,but undeniable dark areas. Will those dark areas suffer?

Any opinions/knowledge on this anyone?

Thanks,

[rawfa]

You know what, Kholi? As crazy as it sounds to say, I actually think the HV20 might have the most solid 1080 24p core image in the entire prosumer/consumer category.

There's something about the smoooothness of this DSLR-descended CMOS chip and DIGIC II processing that is really sweet. I wish it was in my H1. :(

Man, that's a powerful statement, Elton. You just made thousands of budget filmmakers cry in excitement.

Since I already have the A1 I didn't cry, but I did get a bit emotional...my girlfriend had to hug me and tell me everything will be ok :violin:

[Elton]

Here's some footage: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=651683#post651683

I screwed up a bit with the adapter (which will be painfully obvious on the edges of the frame) but it was fun to CC the footage for effect. I went for a higher contrast "grunge" kind of look.

[Dennis Wood]

Elton, I've looked specifically in the posted HV20 footage for signs of the A1 fringing on high contrast vertical areas and I can see none. I still think it's a trichroic prism/filter issue with the 3ccd colour split..which would not affect the HV20 with its bayer filter.

The HV20 is testing a fair bit less sensitive to light than the A1 in the camcorderinfo.com review, which means more light possibly for indoor shots, but this is where the HV20 and CF1 will shine with respect to light efficiency. I found the same thing shooting with the GS400 and then moving to the XH-A1. The A1 is at least 1 to 1.5 stops faster.

Hopefully the HV20 will be here Monday, so I'll throw up some more footage. I had the A1 directly attached to a 46" 1920x1080 Sharp Aquos LCD at a local retailer and the feed from the cam via component was so good, the entire staff came out to look. Several of the sales people commented that it was the best HD image they'd ever seen. I'll have to go back with the HV20 :-)

[Elton]

Elton, I've looked specifically in the posted HV20 footage for signs of the A1 fringing on high contrast vertical areas and I can see none. I still think it's a trichroic prism/filter issue with the 3ccd colour split..which would not affect the HV20 with its bayer filter.

Very interesting. I would tend to agree that it's the prism, but interestingly enough, owners of the XL-H1 using the new 6x wide angle lens report little to no CA...and this is a cam using the same CCD block. It's a tough one to figure out, but at this point I still think it's more to do with the 20x lens.

The HV20 is testing a fair bit less sensitive to light than the A1 in the camcorderinfo.com review, which means more light possibly for indoor shots, but this is where the HV20 and CF1 will shine with respect to light efficiency.

I really love the fact that you have different diffuser options. Very nice to have that extra light efficiency from CF1.

Hopefully the HV20 will be here Monday, so I'll throw up some more footage. I had the A1 directly attached to a 46" 1920x1080 Sharp Aquos LCD at a local retailer and the feed from the cam via component was so good, the entire staff came out to look. Several of the sales people commented that it was the best HD image they'd ever seen. I'll have to go back with the HV20 :-)

Funny, I've had similar responses plugging an A1 and H1 into the best 1080 sets. Most of the "HD" looping feeds at various retailers are utter crap. Hopelessly overcompressed garbage. Costco is the worst when it comes to this...but I love their prices, selection and return policy. :)

It's funny how few of these HDTV salespeople actually know what quality HD should look like. They just get used to those crap feeds and do their spiel.

[Elton]

No question, the HV20 really seems to hold it's own in bright day light exteriors/well lit, bright interiors. But what about low or selective lit night exteriors or dark interiors.?

If a portion of the frame is perfectly exposed, but the majority of the rest of the frame is dark to black, will the camera struggle to show what is in the dark areas and futz it up with gain, making the black/dark areas really ugly/mushy/noisy?

Good question, Darth. Once I've got the camera I'll see if I can do some tests that'll give us some semblance of an answer.

[prisma]

I am really exited about this camera, can't wait to shot my short with it.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Thanks, Elton

[rapsucks]

I've got a small question for Dennis:

You mentioned that the HV20 needed an achromat for use with the Brevis. Are you still finding this to be the case? I think it would make the deal a lot sweeter for the bargain shopper (read: HV20 owner) if the Brevis could function without the $400 achromat. Could an additional spacer ring make up the necessary focus distance without causing the field of view to be too wide?

In short, what would the Brevis bundle look like for an HV20 and how much would it cost?

[Nik Manning]

I've got a small question for Dennis:

You mentioned that the HV20 needed an achromat for use with the Brevis. Are you still finding this to be the case? I think it would make the deal a lot sweeter for the bargain shopper (read: HV20 owner) if the Brevis could function without the $400 achromat. Could an additional spacer ring make up the necessary focus distance without causing the field of view to be too wide?

In short, what would the Brevis bundle look like for an HV20 and how much would it cost?

Yes. In short, what would the Brevis bundle look like for an HV20 and how much would it cost?

[Dennis Wood]

To be honest, I've only had a few hours with the camera, and I've spent all of it without even loading a tape, or attaching it to the adapter. I'm trying to work out a reliable manual way to control aperture and shutter speed with the cam to make sure the test parameters are under control. This weekend I'll do more testing and let you guys know. Some info on early findings here. (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=912871&postcount=73)

The 72mm achromat is $200 when purchased as part of the HD bundle...and alone, it's under $250...so definitely not $400! I know the HV20 is very close to not needing it, so if you were willing to slightly crop left/right sides, you could use the adapter without it. The HD bundle (Brevis, lens mount, 72mm Achromat, charger/AC adapter, Pelican case) is running right around $1k, and you'd only add the 43-72 step up ring set to get started. We just got the 43-72 ring set in stock today.

[rapsucks]

Dennis,

You might shoot me for this (they have guns in Canada, right?) but what if you used a "close-up" adapter, sold for cheap in photography stores as macro adapters. The HV20 has a small enough lens diameter that finding one shouldn't be hard. I know that they are notorious for CA and they're usually cheap pieces of glass (or plastic, uhgg!), but it'd be a heck of a lot cheaper than an achromat. (I appologize for misstating the price of the achromat. On your website it's touted as a $395 part, but I failed to see that you were only charging $240 for it.)

I guess what I'm getting at is figuring out just how close is the HV20 to being able to use the Brevis without an achromat. But if the difference is only between $806 and $1014 (in US dollars) then it's probably worth the little bit extra to do it right. And who am I to question your methods, anyway?

What are your recommendation on rails? It's all probably too much to just hang by the threads, I would imagine.

[Dennis Wood]

You could certainly pick up a set of 43mm macro filters, for about $25, and they would indeed work. At +2 or so, CA wouldn't be too bad, and there's not a ton of spherical issues generally at that strength either. I used a set of cheap 72mm filters way back when when we were testing cameras to determine their needs. At over +4, CA, SA, and softness become very apparent based on our tests using both the cheap ones vs our 72mm achromats. At +10, we saw a 100 line res hit with the "cheap" macros on the EIA1956 chart.

If you're building your own adapter, or just looking to cut costs, these inexpensive macro filters are perfect for testing as they can stack to increase power. Just be aware of the limitations/image issues as the power goes up. The nice thing about our 72mm achromat is that you ditch the adapter and use it for extreme close up shots with any cam too.

Rails are a really good idea with these small cams. The biggest issue I've seen is the the plastic chassis will flex slightly making locked down footage difficult. We just got our 15mm carbon fibre rails in, and at 26grams per 30cm, we plan to have a super light rig for the HV20 for use on steadicams :-)

[Dennis Wood]

Can you spot the HV20? :-)


http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20d.jpg


http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20a.jpg


http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20b.jpg


http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20c.jpg

http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20e.jpg

[rapsucks]

Ha!

I love that the tripod baseplate is longer than the camera. In fact, everything there is bigger than the camera. I also love that you have the Marshall actually mounted upside down. Who needs a flip funtion?

It looks nice, though. Show that to Robert Rodriguez circa 1993 or Roger Corman circa, well, whenever, and they'd blow a gasket. Amazing that something that small can do so much.

[Elton]

That is so damn cool Dennis! Love it!

[rawfa]

Dennis, the pictures look awesome and I'm sure the footage will rock too. This combo is a real heartbreaker...in a good way :D

[ecking]

Dennis how much would that EXACT setup cost me? Minus the cost of the marshall and the hv20 of course. If I could buy exactly that from you, I'd heavily consider getting an hv20.

[icicle22]

Why is the footage on the monitor still updside down, even when the monitor is flipped? Isn't that the reason we flip it? To see the video right-side up?

[Zak Forsman]

Why is the footage on the monitor still updside down, even when the monitor is flipped? Isn't that the reason we flip it? To see the video right-side up?the image is flipped, but not the on-screen display's text.

[Gordon Prince]

Dennis how much would that EXACT setup cost me? Minus the cost of the marshall and the hv20 of course. If I could buy exactly that from you, I'd heavily consider getting an hv20.

Yeah Dennis. You could PM as well.

[Kholi]

Oh wow. Those images are bad-ass.

[icicle22]

the image is flipped, but not the on-screen display's text.

Thanks! I could not see anything on the LCD to reconcile the image to being accurate.

[Dennis Wood]

That exact setup is our HD bundle, rails, rails support, mattebox, focus gear, and the yet to be released (currently in manufacture) follow focus. Pricing etc. is at www.cinevate.com/catalog (http://www.cinevate.com/catalog)

With a firmware update to show current f stop settings, I'm beginning to think that as an adapter cam, the HV20 could be to HD what the GS400 was to SD cams.

[Gordon Prince]

And for when a sharper version (though without losing the Brevis properties) ?