Here are my Canon HV20 Clips just filmed!

[PappasArts]

Hello everyone!

With all the talk over the Canon HV20, I had to get one to try out. So here is a small sample of some first shots I have gotten. The camera has an extremely good image. Almost scary from a camera at this cost. I will be getting more shots over the next week to share. Don't expect miracles with the footage since learning how to control this camera takes a little getting used to. However here is what I have so far.

All footage will be up only for a limited time..

THE LINK:

http://pbase.com/arrfilms


Don't forget to use the VLC player.....

Link to player:
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/


UPDATE: 3 /30/2007... HERE IS A HV20 FRAME FROM SOME TEST FOOTAGE SHOT TODAY AT SUNSET OF AN ACTRESS! I will post footage from this soon...

http://homepage.mac.com/pappasarts/.Pictures/Tonya.JPG



Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }
XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts

[stinkpot]

can't wait to see 'em.

[PappasArts]

I just added the link to the footage..

Pappas

[stinkpot]

That looks really good for a small hand-held. The color was better than I had expected from 1 ccd.

Cool sea creature, man.

[rur]

Those images are pretty amazing. Did you use a filter for the man on the bike image? What settings did you have the camera on for that shot? Was it in 1080/24p mode? Does this camera have a 720/24p mode?

Thanks

[Emanuel]

can't wait to see 'em.I second that Michael!

I'm @dial-up tonight but tomorrow I'll definitely go to my broadband only to download this. Michael's H1 clips were the first ever best stuff available online. I just remind all of you that was what brought Steven Dempsey (disjecta here) to the Canon side. Apart myself. :)

[Emanuel]

Does this camera have a 720/24p mode?

ThanksNo. Only 1080/24p or 25p.

[Artscroll]

These are all gorgeous. Shooting at the "magic hour" really helps too. I love the ones of the cargo ship and the heat condensation in the air. Can't wait till my HV20 arrives. Best Buy is backordered.

[Emanuel]

These are all gorgeous. Shooting at the "magic hour" really helps too. This is called for... Photography (or Cinematography). :D

[rapsucks]

It should be noted that this is not a 1 CCD camera--it's a 1 CMOS camera. I don't know anything about it other than to say that these are the CMOS chips that are in DSLRs. Well, maybe not the same ones, but similar.

I don't rightly know what that means for its image-gathering ability. I do believe that something in the nature of the CMOS makes the image natively progressive, but CCDs can do that as well (see HVX).

If anyone with more technical knowledge than me would like to weigh in, I would appreciate the information.

edit:
Also, I checked out the footage (very impressive) and I couldn't help but notice that it was interlaced. Is this something you did on export, or did the camera record it that way?

[jmc]

Looks pretty great! The aquarium shots look very impressive. Usually the scratched glass and dim light are terrible. What brand and model is your Telephoto 2X adapter?

The shots with the container ship, especially the close up one, seem to have a lot of distortion of edges, similar to heat shimmer. I can't imagine the water was that hot, though...is that maybe the HDV compression?

[Elton]

It should be noted that this is not a 1 CCD camera--it's a 1 CMOS camera. I don't know anything about it other than to say that these are the CMOS chips that are in DSLRs. Well, maybe not the same ones, but similar.

Interesting you should say that. I shot a little bit with the camera at a photographer's studio downtown, and got to take it outside for a few shots. I was taken by the dyanamic range in this shot:
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10380/1175240314.jpg

I intentionally pointed the camera at this street construction sign that was getting hit directly by the sun and acted like a reflector. Also, notice the highlights on the building across the street. This camera retains detail unbelievabley well. I think that has a lot to do with the CMOS chip from the DSLR division.

[PappasArts]

It was pretty hot down there! Lots of heat shimmer! The 2X is an old Ricoh from 20 years ago.

Pappas


Looks pretty great! The aquarium shots look very impressive. Usually the scratched glass and dim light are terrible. What brand and model is your Telephoto 2X adapter?

The shots with the container ship, especially the close up one, seem to have a lot of distortion of edges, similar to heat shimmer. I can't imagine the water was that hot, though...is that maybe the HDV compression?

[stinkpot]

It should be noted that this is not a 1 CCD camera--it's a 1 CMOS camera....

My mistake. I got my info from another post rather than reading the actual specs from Canon.

I stand corrected.

I'm liking it more after reading the specs. I may hafta grab one of these.

[kyle.presley]

Beautiful stuff. I've got to get one of these.

[xray]

I miss sharpness and definition, its somewhat muddy. But not bad for a handycam.

[rawfa]

So far I'm loving this camera, but there's something I can't really put my finger on that kind of bugs me. I look at those tree branches and they seem to be all meshed together. This is something I noticed before on different grabs/footage. I would definitely love to get my hands on it for some proper personal testing.

[Elton]

It's because sharpness was on the low setting. There are actually a fair amount of picture controls and tweaks on the little camera, but nothing like an A1. What I like is how little edge enhancement I see with the low sharpness setting. That can always be recovered in post.

[Emanuel]

It's because sharpness was on the low setting. There are actually a fair amount of picture controls and tweaks on the little camera, but nothing like an A1. What I like is how little edge enhancement I see with the low sharpness setting. That can always be recovered in post.Barlow (especially being a H1/A1/HV20 owner I believe or so far I could understand),

First, when you're saying "nothing like an A1", you mean strictly on controls or not? Also comprehending image quality, sharpness, definition, etc?

Secondly, why the low sharpness setting? Why not a higher sharpness setting from acquisition?

:dankk2:
Emanuel :)

[Elton]

When I say "nothing like an A1" I simply mean that you don't have all the professional image controls the A1/H1 offers such as Color Matrix controls, Knee, Coring etc. The camera is meant more for auto/consumer shooting, but does offer a few kludge methods of image control such as aperture and shutter locking that can help to avoid the typical "auto everything" look of a consumer camera trying to do all the work.

As far as sharpness, this can be tweaked to taste in post rather than settling for the default level of edge enhancement that the camera puts out.

[Mark Dog]

and picture quality elton as far as the comparision ?????


peac n luv

Mark Dog

[Emanuel]

And as far as the image quality is concerned, what's your opinion Barlow?

Comparing both models (aside any pre-idea on PRO vs. consumer aims) but including the sharpness as a relevant parameter though not the only one.

:dankk2: again,
E.

EDIT -- You beat me (but we all are thinking the same) Mark! :laugh:

[Gordon Prince]

Yeah, all these concerns are quite valid. They could have an answer from who has both cameras but it seems Elton doesn't want to help as far as the sharpness comparision... Or cannot he or cannot it?

By the way, Elton are you working for Canon? It seems you have all the new models...

[Elton]

and picture quality elton as far as the comparision ?????

Picture quality, IMO, can be as good or better than the A1/G1/H1. In fact, it has a different quality altogether which is very very smooth. Very good highlight rolloff and distant detail retention. Color is much better than expected from a single chip--in fact--to me it suggests that 3 chip isn't altogether necessary with a good CMOS sensor and excellent RGB filtering.

Much less noisy than I expected and in lowlight it's reasonably tolerable. Fine dancing luma grain/grit like the A1/H1 but different in its own way.

For its price, it's a total no-brainer. A1/G1/H1 owners will need it for a capture deck, but will also find it to be extremely useful in lots of situations. It can put out an amazing image, but is far less tweakable than its siblings. That said, it has an exceptional amount of features and image control for an consumer camera.

Bottom line: It's a palmcorder that's WAAAAAAY overachieving. :)

Gordon--no, I don't work for Canon.

[xray]

In the professional digital cam market we see a view CMOS concepts and mostly all new cams are 3 chippers, like all the Nikons. The best CMOS concepts are included in the Canon development. Canon knows how to make CMOS work, and has great processing software, image controls and UI. Canon knows how to make broadcast lenses. You clearly can see how the digital cam knowledge and technology is pushing or driving the video camcorder developments.

Size matters, in lenses (only 43mm on the HV20), and in sensors (size 1/2.7 "). If you build a palmcam like this one, size and weight -costs- matters for the consumer too. Now you need to make compromises. I don't think the image quality is on par with the just released models A1/G1, these models have another target and less compromises in image quality versus size and weight and costs, although even there those decisions are made. Controlling the image is more important to that group, but raw image quality even so.

Definition, sharpness, color, wide shot detail, it is better in the A1/G1/ H1 in my opinion. But the HV20 cam is great as B roll, as tapefeeder, as second cam, and for all that think the size and money for the Panasonic HVX200, Canon A1/G1/ H1, Sony V1, is one step to high. It is shooting filmcadense, it gives you some tweakability and that is for such a small cam a really good start. It has HDMI, cool!

I might have one, to get a feel on it.

[Barry_Green]

I've sparred with xray before, but on this post I'll agree 100%. The HV20 isn't in the same class as the XHA1. It's 1/4 the price for some good reasons. I haven't explored it extensively, but from my first day of shooting and fooling around with it, there's no way I'd consider it an equal to, or in the same general league as, an XHA1.

The HV20 is going to be a massive hit, because it delivers absolutely amazing price/performance ratio. I got mine for $925 ($937 including shipping!) That's completely untouchable. If price has kept someone from getting into the 24p game, it's wide open now. But that price does come at some expense, and extraordinary red/green fringing is part of that expense, which contributes to an overall blur at full telephoto.

It's a fantastic cam for the money. Just realize that it's very little money.

[Elton]

I agree with Barry. I wasn't really referring to the overall "class" of camera, just that I've seen a core image that can hold its own with the others. The lens doesn't have much reach and the bokeh is a little funky, but in skilled hands the camera can put out a phenomenal picture. Haven't really seen the extreme fringing you've noted, Barry. On the wide end I see very little CA, which is good news for potential 35mm adapter users.

Wow, $925? That's astounding.

[Barry_Green]

It is indeed astounding. The fringing happens at full telephoto; I'm still experimenting so I don't want to commit to any images until I think I know the camera well enough. Very impressive for the price.

[Gordon Prince]

Picture quality, IMO, can be as good or better than the A1/G1/H1.
WOW This is an astounding statement !!

Mr. Barry, I think what Elton meant or want to mean is on the HV20 picture quality comparision (sharpness etc) over the A1/G1. Not controls or other stuff. Price aside.

[Barry_Green]

That's what I'm saying -- no way does an HV20 compare to an XHA1 in overall picture quality. Maybe direct head-to-head you'd say that the HV20 has a tad more dynamic range or something, but the A1 looks better. As it should, since it costs 4x as much.

[Elton]

Interesting. I certainly need more time with an HV20 (buying one soon) but I'm not terribly efficient with how I express myself.

No, I wouldn't trade an A1 for it, but there is something to be said about the fact that is doing true 1080 progressive scan on CMOS. It's totally subjective, but to my eyes, the camera has a unique quality in 24p mode that's quite nice. First of all, less edge enhancement and less pixel twitter/aliasing that I've sometimes seen on very fine, distant diagonal lines (think telephone/power lines) with the H1 and A1.

I just like it. :)

[Emanuel]

Barry, this time, I am with Barlow. Actually, as usual. :) Considering the consensus around his wise findings as well he used to post.

Succeeding this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=599180&postcount=39

And here is the previous test and its results:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=579582&postcount=17

60 i vs. 24F

XH-A1 60i:
824.3 Lines Horizontal (MTF50); 810 Lines Horizontal = Limit@Nyquist
674.8 Lines Vertical (MTF50)

XH-A1 24F:
810 Lines Horizontal (Limit@Nyquist)
590.4 Lines Vertical (MTF50)

Canon HV10:
784.5 Lines Horizontal
704.8 Lines Vertical

And if confirmed the Barlow's first impressions on his findings as there's no losses at 24p, I just can confirm what my eyes have seen comparing the three Canon models:

There's no virtual (so much) differences, or even significant differences. I'd like to say "nor even definition differences" and taking that info coming from that Tom Roper's test, maybe we could say theoretically, at least.

Subjectively speaking, yes there's differences and I'd take the Barlow's words as mine: «but there is something to be said about the fact that is doing true 1080 progressive scan on CMOS. It's totally subjective, but to my eyes, the camera has a unique quality in 24p mode that's quite nice. First of all, less edge enhancement and less pixel twitter/aliasing that I've sometimes seen on very fine, distant diagonal lines (think telephone/power lines) with the H1 and A1».

I've had the same impression on RED footage vs. F900 models, for instance. More pleasant filmic/cinematic. Is the answer coming from the CMOS chip?

[e-steve]

It might be interesting to post a "blind" test comparison and let the experts guess which came from which camera...I'd do it myself but I only have the HV20 and a DVX100!

Just a thought... :)

[Barry_Green]

I had that exact same thought. But I wouldn't do it with an HVX, I'd dig up an HD100 or FX1 or something just so it'd be HDV vs. HDV... I wish I still had an XHA1 here, that'd be the ideal thing to do that comparison with.

[TajJackson]

I got mine for $925 ($937 including shipping!) That's completely untouchable.

Wow, where did you find that price at?.. Please share Barry. I am thinking of pulling the trigger of this sweet little camera and that price will definitely sway me.
Thanks in advance.
Taj

[Barry_Green]

I got mine from www.mediasupplystore.com (http://www.mediasupplystore.com), an authorized Canon dealer.

[TajJackson]

Thanks Barry :-)

[prisma]

It might be interesting to post a "blind" test comparison and let the experts guess which came from which camera...I'd do it myself but I only have the HV20 and a DVX100!

Just a thought... :)
Good idea e-steve, and we should ask Mr. Xray, the greatest esceptic of our little HV20, to discover which piece of footage come from the HV20 and which come from those expensive cameras he is so infatuated with.

[xray]

Good idea e-steve, and we should ask Mr. Xray, the greatest esceptic of our little HV20, to discover which piece of footage come from the HV20 and which come from those expensive cameras he is so infatuated with.

Welcome to dvxuser Prisma. I don't like your setup to name me 'the greatest esceptic of our HV20'. You see this little cam as 'our' cam and that I am against 'your cam'. Its not a war, me against the cam you are willing to buy. That is not the case. Each cam has its goods and bads.

You are free to ask questions here, but not on this personal tone.

[David Jimerson]

Easy there, boys. Simmer down.

[jenningsp]

i'm getting the HV20 when it comes out here in Australia. not sure when that'll be :(
but when i do, i was going to post footage from a 16mm short i'm working on and the HV20, see if people can tell the difference. i think we'll be using 500T. i'm going to have the LetUs35A adapter for the HV20. it should be pretty interesting :) 1080p24 being the digital equivalent of 16mm

xray - being the film enthusiast you are, you should check out this awesome short called "respire"
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/july2006/respire.jhtml

i think people are frightened of the HV20. because it means the poorer filmmakers can have footage that looks just as good as the rich ones.

[xray]

Thanks jenningsp. Respire is a good story and great little project that is presented in Rotterdam. For your film in Australia try for a clear day exterior shoot a small grain low speed like vision2 100T 7212. That is a nice looking film. For a coming project -very mobile settings and small interiors- I'll probably use the b-roll hv20 as well, and as tapefeed for the a1 shoots.

[jenningsp]

i've been having a hard time locating a copy of it. i don't think you can get it anywhere :(
i think the lower speed stocks are too clean. they look like a car commercial or something. i have more of a gritty realist style.

[dahlstrom]

Nice pictures

[xray]

Wait for a filmhouse or festival...

Ask to order vision2 films or go to http://wwwau.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/labs/lablocator.jhtml
search for australia and in the imagecare program labs.

[DVXSanDiego]

I've downloaded a lot of the footage, and I seem to get jaggies around movement and edges every few frames... have a frame grab to post if someone can tell me how to insert a picture in my post. This is a deal breaker for this cam for me as it indicates a lack of true progressive capture. Am I doing something wrong?

[Elton]

Can we please have a sticky in this forum about PULLDOWN!! So many people comment about interlace artifacts and seem to not understand the necessity of 2:3 pulldown for conforming to the 60hz "NTSC" 1080i standard.

There are 2 interlace frames after every 3 progressive frames in a 5 frame sequence. This is to allow 24 progressive frames to be carried in the 29.97 fps 1080i standard. This is exactly the same as how standard HVX 1080 24p (not advanced) is carried within DVCPRO HD 1080i.

HV20 24p can be extracted from the 29.97 recording in order to save the material as *true 24p*. I can't believe how many dvxusers don't understand this mode on the HV20.

[DVXSanDiego]

Yes, a sticky would be great. I understand that these cameras all use pulldown, but dropping my DVX clips into a 24P timeline (with pulldown) in Vegas 7 doesn't show these effects. What would be the proper project settings in Vegas to eliminate this problem? I also see these interlace effects when I play in back in the latest version of Quicktime. Any suggestions?

[rapsucks]

Quicktime will undoubtably show you the interlaced frames. In order to get the progressive frames you need to reverse telecine the files back to 24p.

The catch is that most of the NLEs on the market do not yet support the type of pulldown that the HV20 uses. Somebody mentioned something about Vegas having support because the Sony HDV cameras use the same pulldown method.

A nice topic for another thread would be proper workflow for getting 24p out of the HV20. I think a lot more people would be inclined to buy one if they knew the process involved. (Canon should send some official representatives to this site. They would probably more than pay their own salary in sales.)

[DVXSanDiego]

Thanks rap. I tried working in Vegas on a DV 24p timeline and that got rid of the interlaced frames, but in the HDV 1080 24P I still get them. Maybe I need to be working on my FCP system... and maybe I should have been posting in the Vegas forums... or in another thread....

[DVXSanDiego]

So, went to the Vegas section of the forum, and people are having this issue, i.e., no pulldown removal. Here's the link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=909283
My question is, since Final Cut is having the same issues, what NLE are people using to edit the 24P content from this camera. I am absolutely loving the footage I've seen, but without an NLE to edit it...
What NLE do people recommend for 24P HDV footage for the HV20, XL H1, etc.?

[ecking]

So, went to the Vegas section of the forum, and people are having this issue, i.e., no pulldown removal. Here's the link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=909283
My question is, since Final Cut is having the same issues, what NLE are people using to edit the 24P content from this camera. I am absolutely loving the footage I've seen, but without an NLE to edit it...
What NLE do people recommend for 24P HDV footage for the HV20, XL H1, etc.?

You can edit it in any nle but it just won't be 24 discrete frames because it's embedded in a 60i timeline, but it will still look 24p to the eye. That's my understanding at least.

[Noel Evans]

The HV20 is going to be a massive hit, because it delivers absolutely amazing price/performance ratio. I got mine for $925 ($937 including shipping!) That's completely untouchable.

Just ordered mine, yeah I was a bit slow this time around, wanted the prices to settle a little in Tokyo and didnt have any urgent need for it. But glad I did.

http://www.hikaku.com/shopping/index.html?module=detail&action=Product&product_id=18887864

EDIT - Have a close look at the weight they have stated on the cam on thier website - time for gym.

92000 Japanese Yen(s) = 770.777 US Dollar(s)

Now at that price its rediculous.

[Barry_Green]

535 kilograms? I guess the Japanese version has a few features our US version doesn't? :thumbsup: