Agonizing over dvx100B or Canon A1

[sharky]

I will be shooting a documentary in Peru in a few months. I already own a DVX100B, however many festivals now prefer 16:9 HD (hdv) format. So I am agonizing over sticking with my DVX (I also plan to shoot in 16:9 or at least ending up in that format) or taking the plunge and getting the canon A1. Light will also be a serious consideration, i.e., I'll be shooting with natural light, frequently in low-light situations. Any suggestions/opinions?

thanks,

Sharky

p.s. I have no interest in the anamorphic adaptor, I don't feel like I can truly run and gun with that!

[t-h-e-w-h-o]

dump your dvx and get an A1, you will not regret it. :)

[jmc]

Supposedly, there is a rebate coming for the A1 soon. In case you go that route.

[ryan brown]

Supposedly, there is a rebate coming for the A1 soon. In case you go that route.

There's a $250 right now.

That's a tough decision you've got on your hands. We need more info...

What's your budget for this? what is main subject matter? a lot of outdoor or indoor "low light"?

The DVX is still a great camera, and there have been some AMAZING docs shot on it recently (THIS (http://www.iraqinfragments.com/) one, for instance), so if it were me, I'd ask one question. Do I NEED to shoot this in HD?

Personally, if I had plenty of cash on my hands for a project like the one you [briefly] described, I'd probably upgrade. Just me...

-brown

[skrott]

I beg to Differ but Festivals DO NOT prefer HD or 16x9 who ever gave you that info is wrong. keep the DVX it only produced a Oscar Nominated Documentary this year

[Sirocco]

It is difficult to believe that Panasonic wont do something with the DVX.
This camera has been so successful , why would they let the market to Canon?
Who knows they (Pana) may surprise us at the Nab ?
Personnaly I would wait a month before buying the Canon.

[OldCorpse]

It is difficult to believe that Panasonic wont do something with the DVX.
This camera has been so successful , why would they let the market to Canon?
Who knows they (Pana) may surprise us at the Nab ?
Personnaly I would wait a month before buying the Canon.

Gotta agree with Sirocco. If the OP can afford to wait a month, it may be a good idea. Then again, I'm already shocked Panny hasn't come out with a successor to the DVX. I mean, can you imagine? All those DVX users who are jumping ship to Canon - so unnecessary! They'd love to replace their old Panny with the next model, I'm sure (most of them, anyway). It's like car brands. I like Toyota - to me the most important thing in a car is reliability - and even though many American cars are closing the quality gap with Toyota (not quite yet), faced with a choice between an American brand and Toyota, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that I'll go for a Toyo. Once you have customer loyalty, it's plain stupid to fritter it away. Panny didn't have to give away their DVX customers to Canon. Yet so far, they've done exactly that. And Canon looks to be gunning for the whole market - f.ex. the lower part of the market is going to be covered by their HV20. The HVX200 market looks safe, but why drop the other parts?

Panny needs to wake up, and soon... it may be already too late what with all the A1 rebates.

[Captain Pierce]

Then again, I'm already shocked Panny hasn't come out with a successor to the DVX.
They did--it was called the HVX200. :)

That said, it doesn't necessarily seem that the HVX was necessarily the successor that most DVX users wanted. :Drogar-Evil(DBG):

From what I've seen here, I don't know that Panasonic really knows what to do with regards to a DVX successor. It seems that they thought the "advantages" of DVC-PRO HD and P2 would justify the HVX's price tag, only to find that many users saw those advantages as disadvantages and were perfectly willing to "compromise" on a "lesser format" such as HDV on the XH-A1 given the lower price. (Not to mention that many don't see that HDV is a compromise or a lesser format.)

Honestly, has Panasonic as a corporate entity even had time to assess the impact of the XH-A1? And even if they have, do they have an option to come up with a "DVX100C" or even an "HVX100" that somehow splits the difference?

[ennfurno]

honestly,i feel my canon a1 is an hdv dvx with 16:9.i think if panasonic had at least given me native 16:9 chips like the xl2 alot of people probably would't had made the switch to the a1 .so abrubptly.since canon has made high quality filmaking accesible to a poor man like me i'm not only greatful but panasonic probably won't see another dime from me unless the do something drastic.oh and the images coming from my a1 and red rock combo stuns me.

[Barry_Green]

Camcorders take a couple of years to develop. Do you think they could just spring a fully-formed DVX100C on the market as soon as they see an XHA1 arise? If they wanted to make a direct competitor it'd take 'em a couple of years (unless, of course, one is already underway).

[ryan brown]

Do you think they could just spring a fully-formed DVX100C on the market as soon as they see an XHA1 arise? If they wanted to make a direct competitor it'd take 'em a couple of years (unless, of course, one is already underway).

Yeah, but wouldn't panasonic have more knowledge about what their competitors are working on than the common "joe schmo" in the streets?

I'd think they'd hear all about the canon [A1] at it's beginning stages, and possibly put the effort into creating a similar camera (unless of course they just thought that it wouldn't be a big rival with the HVX). I'm just guessing here, but there's no way that these company's have no idea what the other big guys are working on, right?

What do you think, Barry? did they make a mistake by not having a similarly priced HD camcorder at (or around) the same time the A1 was released?

Was it an oversight, or were/are they just gearing their efforts into the HVX and going for "quality over quanity", and hoping the customers will agree? I mean, I'd LOVE an HVX, don't get me wrong, but it's just not in my budget right now, wheras the canon is a helluva lot closer.

-brown

just seems to me, and a LOT of people, that the canon IS a lot like "an hdv dvx with 16:9" *quoting ennfurno*

P.s.s. sorry, we're getting a little off topic...

[OldCorpse]

They did--it was called the HVX200. :)

That said, it doesn't necessarily seem that the HVX was necessarily the successor that most DVX users wanted. :Drogar-Evil(DBG):

Sorry, the HVX200 is not really a followup to the DVX. It's in a different price class. It's like saying the 2009 model of a Toyota Camry is going to be a Lexus.

They need to hold onto all price bands in the market - if anything, the bands are moving lower, as is the case in all electronics and cameras in particular (look what happened to the prices in the digital still cameras market!).

It's a blunder, pure and simple. Maybe it takes 2 years to develop a camera, but fact is that most companies have more than one team working in parallel leapfrogging one another, so they can quickly put something on the market if need be, or keep milking a successful model and skip a release if there is no competition on the horizon. And the other poster is right - it's hard to keep secrets in this industry (look at RED!) as far as who is working on what... not every detail, but enough to know if it'll be a competitor to your product or not. Panny wiffed this one, pure and simple, IMHO.

That said, I'm still hoping they have been developing something all along, and just didn't have perfect timing. Hope they have something up their sleeve come NAB. Competition is always good for the consumer. Panny needs to step up to the plate. The A1 is a cool camera, but it has some obvious weaknesses, same as the Sony - and if Panny comes out with something in the same price range (or lower!) without the weaknesses, they can still get the market back from Canon and Sony.

Go Panasonic! :thumbup:

[Barry_Green]

I think it was a mistake, sure. I've been nagging them for an "HVX100" for at least six or nine months now, maybe longer. The XHA1 customer is not an HVX customer, like I said in my article; two totally different customers are looking at those products. Panasonic needs an AVC-HD-based high-def DVX if they want to compete for the XHA1 customer. And that's a hole in their lineup right now.

[DavidChia]

But the colour sucks in the XHA1, compare to what you can get with a Pana shown in the review by barry: http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/xha1/
. (Yeah , so you can change that in post, but the trouble and time)

Yes the zoom factor too(20 against 10). but you can't zoom and focus at the same time with the XHA1, but you can with the DVX.
Changing SD to HD only cost $100 with softwares. The only factor i see is the 16:9.
is 16:9 really a factor for you? if so then get the the XHA1.

[Huy Vu]

But the colour sucks in the XHA1, compare to what you can get with a Pana shown in the review by barry: http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/xha1/
. (Yeah , so you can change that in post, but the trouble and time)

Whoa, I'm going to have to stop you there. The stock color on the A1 is a little flat but the camera itself has the most extensive array of image control option in its class, even more than the HVX! Head over to the A1 section and check out some of the looks that were achieved in-camera and then come back and tell me that the color in the A1 "sucks."

Softwares aren't going to give you the extra resolution or the pixels that weren't there to begin with. Like you said, somethings can be changed in post, but it takes time.

[downsouth]

newbie here...

Correct me please.
I do not own a DVX yet. Im considering the DVX line because it seems this is the "only" camera that gives "true" filmlike video. Whereas the Canon and others cant deliver the DVX "look" Canon is great for weddings, but not for amateur film entrepreneurs..............right?

[DavidChia]

While both camcorders feature extensive image control, the XHA1 has more controls to choose from. Individual control over R,G, and B Gain and matrices, as well as finer levels of adjustment, give the XHA1 more settings to “paint” the picture. With that said, I was never able to get the XHA1 to match the lush, rich picture that the HVX delivers. The XHA1 always looked a bit more electronic to me, with flatter “blah” colors – look at the Battleship photos, for example.


I took a quote off from the review by Barry.

Yes we can all change the setting too. i could change my (EX) FX1 to look good too. but it takes time.So basically the colour really is flat in a XHA1. we have to fine tune it. and even after fine tuning it, there are only limitations?

So i take back the word "suck" and and replace it with "flat"

[Huy Vu]

newbie here...

Correct me please.
I do not own a DVX yet. Im considering the DVX line because it seems this is the "only" camera that gives "true" filmlike video. Whereas the Canon and others cant deliver the DVX "look" Canon is great for weddings, but not for amateur film entrepreneurs..............right?
False, look at my reply below.

[Huy Vu]

I took a quote off from the review by Barry.

Yes we can all change the setting too. i could change my (EX) FX1 to look good too. but it takes time.So basically the colour really is flat in a XHA1. we have to fine tune it. and even after fine tuning it, there are only limitations?

So i take back the word "suck" and and replace it with "flat"
I think we all agree first of all, that the definition of "good" color rendition is somewhat subjective. I read the same review you did, and what I got out of it (and numerous people already noted) is that the stock A1 setting is somewhat neutral compared to the HVX. The review said nothing about how they compared after adjusting the settings in camera (and such a comparison would not have been possible in any case because there's no established benchmark on which is "better").

Second of all, the ability to fine tune an image in camera is an advantage, not a flaw. Very few people making narrative film actually turn the camera on and record with the stock setting. They experiment and tweaked to get the look that they want. The HVX's stock setting isn't right for every situation, and neither is the A1's. It's misleading to say that the A1 produces "flat" image in general because then you're not taking into account who's using it and what setting the camera is in.

This has been repeated so many times it's almost a cliche: it's not the camera, it's the operator. The film look isn't specific to any camera or company. There's plenty of HVX/DVX footage that look exactly like home video, and you can say the same for the A1.

[downsouth]

If only two cameras existed on the planet, and the prices were equal, which would you choose for your business/hobby.......and why!

Panasonic DVX100B or Canon XH-A1

Jeff
__________________________________________________ ________

[Huy Vu]

A1; it's everything the DVX is, with HD and 16:9 capability.

[triplej96]

If only two cameras existed on the planet, and the prices were equal, which would you choose for your business/hobby.......and why!

Panasonic DVX100B or Canon XH-A1

Jeff
__________________________________________________ ________

For me it was an easy choice. I bought a used DVX 100b for 2 k can't go wrong there. I have a nice computer hp 8200 workstation dual processors 4 gigs of ram, adboe production studio premium, and avid. HD looks nice for sure but going HD cost more money in general not to mention a pretty decent computer upgrade. I saved money going with a used dvx which enabled me to buy software, tripod, light kit... After spending just a little time with the dvx I know I made the right decision.

The dvx is perfect for me but for others the A1 may be perfect.

[Sirocco]

So we are back to the point. Is Panasonic awake and aware that there is still a market for the $3000 camera? The DVX (in good hands) has help produce award winning projects, proving that it was possible with a reasonnable budget to do work of passion and quality.
So is there a AVC-HD-DVX waiting for us next month?

[Barry_Green]

The review said nothing about how they compared after adjusting the settings in camera
Yes, it did. It said, and images were posted to show, that you can max out the colors to pull some punch into the XHA1 image, but even so it only begins to approach the HVX's default settings. The HVX can be pushed much further (if that's what's desired).


(and such a comparison would not have been possible in any case because there's no established benchmark on which is "better").
That is exactly true. There's no single overriding case of "better", there's only what you prefer, and that's subjective in all cases.

[Barry_Green]

A1; it's everything the DVX is, with HD and 16:9 capability.
No, it isn't. It may be everything you need, but it isn't everything the DVX is. DVX includes manual zoom, cinegamma, is at least a stop faster, has precise repeatable focus, better audio, individually controllable audio channels for line/mic and phantom power and routing one mic to both channels, two levels of zebras, zebras and peaking at the same time, etc. The XHA1 has many things to it that the DVX doesn't as well. They're not the same, and the XHA1 does many things the DVX doesn't (including high def!) But to say that it's "everything the DVX is" is just not true. Might be everything you needed from a DVX, but that won't apply to everyone.

As compared to the DVX, I'd say the XHA1 takes six steps forward and two steps back. But with the aggressive pricing, it's the better buy for most circumstances; a prospective owner would have to look at the list of things the DVX does that the XHA1 doesn't and determine if those were dealbreakers. If they can live without those features, get the XHA1 by all means. If the user can't live without those features, the XHA1 is not the better camera for them.

[Barry_Green]

The DVX (in good hands) has help produce award winning projects
Including two Oscar-nominated documentaries! All these cameras are good enough, and buying a better-quality camera isn't going to be the difference between success and failure anymore; just buy the one that's right for what it is you do. Each has different features and capabilities.


So is there a AVC-HD-DVX waiting for us next month?
No indication whatsoever. I've been nagging for exactly this for a long time, and have not gotten any encouraging feedback that it's coming anytime soon. :(

[ryan brown]

As compared to the DVX, I'd say the XHA1 takes six steps forward and two steps back. But with the aggressive pricing, it's the better buy for most circumstances; a prospective owner would have to look at the list of things the DVX does that the XHA1 doesn't and determine if those were dealbreakers. If they can live without those features, get the XHA1 by all means. If the user can't live without those features, the XHA1 is not the better camera for them.

AND... there's your answer, people.

Well put (as usual) Barry.

[bballis]

better audio, individually controllable audio channels for line/mic and phantom power and routing one mic to both channels,

Hi Barry,
Would you please give an example (or two) when you would use both the line and mic settings? On the DVX, how would you route one mic to both channels? If I had 2 separate mics plugged in to the A1, can I set both to different levels?
Thanks!

[cardmaverick]

Barry's right about cameras taking time to develop. I remember when Andromeda came out, it wasn't producing a very hot looking HD image... but now they are gearing up to release a 12 bit linear firmware upgrade, and the current 10 bit system is WAY better than it was back in late 2005.

As for low light, the smiley says it all:

:huh:

I have yet to see any really good low light footage from any video camera, heck, even film. Cameras need light, get ready for noise, it sounds like your gonna have to accept that fact.

Ever consider buying a highly portable light kit instead? I'm not talking on camera light (blah, those suck). I mean something super compact and lite weight, like a Lowell kit? I don't ever use Lowell's for my projects, but if I needed something lite weight, and could possibly run off a robust battery system, I'd get some Lowell lights.

A newer "better" camera isn't always the right answer...

[Captain Pierce]

Hi Barry,
Would you please give an example (or two) when you would use both the line and mic settings? On the DVX, how would you route one mic to both channels? If I had 2 separate mics plugged in to the A1, can I set both to different levels?
Thanks!

Well, I'm not Barry, but an immediate scenario that would come to mind for using both line and mic at the same time is getting a feed from some sort of sound board (which is typically line-level) but wanting to run a separate mic into the camera as well. Granted, that's more of an event-based scenario (which is where I work).

As for routing one mic (or line feed, for that matter) to both DVX channels, you have to use Input 2 and then just set both channels to take their audio from Input 2.