Who's planning to buy an HV20?

[Kholi]

Anyone already pre-ordered?

[chris24]

I haven't pre-ordered, but I'm planning on getting one. I have a faux documentary (mockumentary isn't quite the right tone for it) where the lead character is filming his own life that it should be perfect for. Just hoping that the cam turns out as good as the buzz.

[Jay Rodriguez]

I'm thinking about it. Might try to scoop up the HV10 instead, it'll be cheaper

[mc9000]

I'll be picking one up. I'll use it as a capture deck for my A1 footage. It'll also be great for trips and for situations where the small size factor will be appreciated.

[rawfa]

I'll be picking one up. I'll use it as a capture deck for my A1 footage. It'll also be great for trips and for situations where the small size factor will be appreciated.

Same here....when I have some dough to spare.

[Norbert]

I will have to wait until May but I'm thinking of getting one if for instance Panasonic doesn't come up with anything better for the price before May.
And apart from the majority around here I will actually use it for ALL my film making, probably with an SGpro in front of the lens. :)

[Kholi]

I will have to wait until May but I'm thinking of getting one if for instance Panasonic doesn't come up with anything better for the price before May.
And apart from the majority around here I will actually use it for ALL my film making, probably with an SGpro in front of the lens. :)

I wouldn't count on Pana dropping something similar before May, but here's to hoping.

NAB will tell lots, perhaps.

[DammitJanet]

I've got my hands full with my A1 right now, but I can see maybe picking one up a year from now or so. It'd be nice to have a second cam for intercutting 1080i footy and for trips and stuff.

[philnerd]

If I'm OK financially (ha!), I'd like to look into the HV-20 near the end of the year, maybe early 08. Capture deck for my A1, occasional B roll and a superb personal cam. Can't beat that for the money.

[AuditoryVisuals]

I will get one later this year or sometime before then. Possibly even early next year.

[jenningsp]

i'm definitely getting one. it's going to be my main camera and I'm planning to shoot an indie feature on it.

my setup will be:

HV20 PAL version
letus35A - handyman special
indifocus rails
indifocus geared followfocus and a 12" whip
a XLR balance box with phantom power
a 15" 720p LCD television with component input for focusing
i've already got a set of nikon primes.

yeah. all that for less than a DVX100.

[Noel Evans]

One coming this way. It will be a deck, family camera. Im thinking about making some kind of pro looking mock up deck box for it, so when theres a client looking on I dont have to have them see I am using a cam for a deck (just kidding - maybe).

[Norbert]

I wouldn't count on Pana dropping something similar before May, but here's to hoping.

NAB will tell lots, perhaps.My thought exactly. When is NAB anyway?

it's going to be my main camera and I'm planning to shoot an indie feature on it.That's the spirit! I can't wait to see what this camera can do under the right circumstances.

[scannon]

I'll be picking one up. I'll use it as a capture deck for my A1 footage. It'll also be great for trips and for situations where the small size factor will be appreciated.


Ditto .


S Cannon

[BARYE]

b-roll cam, transfer deck, travel cam, low profile acquisition cam -- mic and headphone ports -- under a thousand ??

ya I'm getting one...

[SamKam]

b-roll cam, transfer deck, travel cam, low profile acquisition cam -- mic and headphone ports -- under a thousand ??

ya I'm getting one...


Ditto

[Sean Michael]

I preordered one. :thumbsup:

[bustak]

the HV20 looks pretty nice! Don't want to promote another site, but there is some good info on this forum about the HV20, with some good links too!
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88679

[StMad]

Me too, but there might be a "next big thing" (little thing :)) by the time I get around to it.

[jenningsp]

That's the spirit! I can't wait to see what this camera can do under the right circumstances.

i'm completely confident that this camera can produce pictures that rival the G1 and even the HVX. i just hope it will work in low light. i'll have access to pro lights but it still worries me.

i read that it's rated 3 lux at 30 shutter with full gain. the HV10 is 5 lux at the same setting. i'll be shooting everything at 50 shutter with a letus35A and a f/1.8 lens - aprox 1.5 stops of light loss.

i know the DVX it rated at 3 lux, but at what shutter??? does anyone know?

[Barry_Green]

i'm completely confident that this camera can produce pictures that rival the G1 and even the HVX.
Why? No single-chip camera has ever matched a comparable 3-chip, much less a $1,000 camera matching a $5,000 or $7,000 one.

Let it be what it is, rather than trying to turn it into something it isn't. I ordered an HV20 (from mediasupplystore.com) because I think it's irresistible for what it is, at the price point that it comes in at, especially at the price they offered it at! But expecting a pocketcam to rival something that's way out of its league is just setting yourself up for disappointment. I mean, I love my Nokia N93, it's a great phone/web browser/PDA/still cam/video cam combo, but I don't expect its picture to match a DVXs (even though Nokia advertises it as taking "DVD-quality video", a 4-year-old DVX looks at least six hundred thousand times better than N93 video).

[rawfa]

Very interesting comparison here (this was post at dvinfo): http://www.genkosha.co.jp/vs/settlement2006/
http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/104002138.jpg

http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/940381850.jpg



sony hdw-f900

http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/197788646.jpg

sony hdw-f950
http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/377987467.jpg



hdw-730

http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/908298923.jpg


2k film
http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/157154804.jpg
http://www.avkorea.co.kr/moFiles/moFORUMS/711144570.jpg

[Nik Manning]

Why? No single-chip camera has ever matched a comparable 3-chip, much less a $1,000 camera matching a $5,000 or $7,000 one.

Let it be what it is, rather than trying to turn it into something it isn't. I ordered an HV20 (from mediasupplystore.com) because I think it's irresistible for what it is, at the price point that it comes in at, especially at the price they offered it at! But expecting a pocketcam to rival something that's way out of its league is just setting yourself up for disappointment. I mean, I love my Nokia N93, it's a great phone/web browser/PDA/still cam/video cam combo, but I don't expect its picture to match a DVXs (even though Nokia advertises it as taking "DVD-quality video", a 4-year-old DVX looks at least six hundred thousand times better than N93 video).

Well considering the HVX and the G1 came to the market before the HV20 there is a chance it can rival those products. They made compromises in other departments other than the picture. And considering that the HV10 rivaled the G1 and HVX in picture quality we can be hopeful that this cam will hold it's ground.

With that said I will be getting one later in the year. That price is amazing. I will try to trick it out for under the A1 price that is my goal. I just no in my heart that most people will use the A1 with mostly preset settings which means to me that I might not need all those options. It has a A1 like cine setting so I am good. 24f good. Pop on a 35mm adapter and you are good!

[Elton]

Eventually this thread may need to be retitled to "Who isn't planning on getting an HV-20?". :tongue:

[jenningsp]

Well considering the HVX and the G1 came to the market before the HV20 there is a chance it can rival those products. They made compromises in other departments other than the picture. And considering that the HV10 rivaled the G1 and HVX in picture quality we can be hopeful that this cam will hold it's ground.

With that said I will be getting one later in the year. That price is amazing. I will try to trick it out for under the A1 price that is my goal. I just no in my heart that most people will use the A1 with mostly preset settings which means to me that I might not need all those options. It has a A1 like cine setting so I am good. 24f good. Pop on a 35mm adapter and you are good!


exactly!!!! this camera has all the options you'd need and none of the ones you'd never use. the HV20, HVX and A1 all record the same 1080p, albeit slightly differently. add an XLR balance box and a 35mm adapter and you're set. you've got the same functionality and the same quality picture.

i'm planning on converting all my HDV 1080p25 footage to DVC 720p25. mainly because my little G4 has trouble with the HDV codec and it will hold up better in colour grading. i think you get around 720p 4:2:1.5 or something like that. it is incredibly close to the HVX.
in my tests when you convert the HDV footage to DVC it gets rid if that washed out look as well. i don't know why. it just seems to work.

[Justin Kuhn]

I kind of want one for those situations I don't want to put my HVX in and the situations I can't (due to size). In fact I was thinking about the DVX for similar purposes, because it's so light compared to the HVX. But the HV20's footage would match the HVX's better, as least as far as aspect ratio goes--and it's HD as well. I also want a good personal, light run and gun cam. I'm looking forward to seeing footage.

[Kholi]

Underwater Cam!!!

[xray]

Let it be what it is, rather than trying to turn it into something it isn't. I ordered an HV20 (from mediasupplystore.com) because I think it's irresistible for what it is, at the price point that it comes in at, especially at the price they offered it at! But expecting a pocketcam to rival something that's way out of its league is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

This is absolutely true. It's no Red either, it's a small handcorder, handy to use in all those circumstances a big lens is bringing you troubles or weight. And it can function as feeder in the editing.

[AuditoryVisuals]

Why? No single-chip camera has ever matched a comparable 3-chip, much less a $1,000 camera matching a $5,000 or $7,000 one.

Let it be what it is, rather than trying to turn it into something it isn't. I ordered an HV20 (from mediasupplystore.com) because I think it's irresistible for what it is, at the price point that it comes in at, especially at the price they offered it at! But expecting a pocketcam to rival something that's way out of its league is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Barry! It's not that bad. The HV10 is incredible. I think the resolution and dynamic range of the HV10 is better than the G1 (in my opinion). And most certainly the resolution of the HV10 is better than the HVX.

But of course it's not all just resolution. And even though it shoots 24p, I don't think the film look will be as great as the HVX. And also, it doesn't have all the controls such as variable framerates and gamma curves nor does it have a jackpack or encode in DVCPRO HD or record in 24p without pulldown. But it's not all that bad either!

It's a great camera. It's not a disappointment. It's about picture anyway! I think that it'll easily rival the picture quality of the G1 and HVX. Except in low light.

[Emanuel]

Eventually this thread may need to be retitled to "Who isn't planning on getting an HV-20?". :tongue:Indeed, my friend! It will sell like popcorn or still further.

[Emanuel]

Very interesting comparison here (this was post at dvinfo)
Where's the link Rafa? I'm crazy for comparisions.

[Noel Evans]

exactly!!!! this camera has all the options you'd need and none of the ones you'd never use. the HV20, HVX and A1 all record the same 1080p, albeit slightly differently. add an XLR balance box and a 35mm adapter and you're set. you've got the same functionality and the same quality picture.

i'm planning on converting all my HDV 1080p25 footage to DVC 720p25. mainly because my little G4 has trouble with the HDV codec and it will hold up better in colour grading. i think you get around 720p 4:2:1.5 or something like that. it is incredibly close to the HVX.
in my tests when you convert the HDV footage to DVC it gets rid if that washed out look as well. i don't know why. it just seems to work.


I understand that people are excited about this cam. Why not, its seemingly a little champ. But the reality is IT WILL NOT COMPARE to a 3chip HD cam.

Im sure it will be pretty good, I am sure some users of the HV20 will produce better results than some users of the A1/HVX. But that doesnt mean the cam is comparable it means that the users arent.

[rawfa]

Extremely valid point, ncje. Capable people will do amazing things not matter the limitations. But lets not kid our selves. Things cost what they cost for a reason. Show up with the HV20 for a pro gig and you won't even have time to insert the tape before the guy tells you you are fired. Other than that I always said this camera is amazing and I have so doubt we'll see stunnig footage pretty soon. When I have some spare cash I plan to buy it for sure. But don't buy a miura thinking you're getting a ferrari (I know nothing about cars...is this comparison correct?)

[rawfa]

Where's the link Rafa? I'm crazy for comparisions.

Emanuel, the comparisons are on the links I posted. It's only a bunch of side by side frames shot under the same circumstances by different cameras (canon A1, HV10, sone sony, etc), Nothing very thorough though.

[Kholi]

But don't buy a miura thinking you're getting a ferrari (I know nothing about cars...is this comparison correct?)

More like, Don't buy a Honda Civic expecting to get an Acura RSX or Honda S2000. Cause the HVX and A1 sure as hell ain't Ferraris, more equivalent to those two in comparison.

[rawfa]

Hehehe Thanks ;-)

[Emanuel]

Señor ;-) the requested link was about the dvinfo.net post... :)

[Darth Bunnykins]

A little of topic, but according to Chris Hurd's write up about the HV20 :
"There's a Cine color mode available as well, which can be used with or without 24p. It's actually based on one of the Custom Presets included with the Canon XH A1 and G1 camcorders, number 8 (Cine.V.) The parameters of that preset are Gamma: Cine 1, Knee: Low, Black: Stretch, Sharpness: -4, Color Matrix: Cine 1, Color Gain: -20, Color Phase: +5, Red-Blue: -5, Green-Red: -5, Blue-Red: +5, and Red-Green: +12. When the HV20 begins shipping in April, it'll be interesting to see how this Cine color option matches up with Custom Preset 8 from an XH A1."

-Anybody want to weigh in on what this preset might be like on the A1?

Thanks,

[xray]

Look under the presets (....) the numbers you missed in the HV20 list and those that are different. So you can't compare now, but in the end they match up. It is a gamma/color preset that is build to match the Hv20 with the XHA1/G1 in 'filmlike' appearance on video. (not for filmtransfer)


[ CUSTOM PRESET FILE ]
MODEL : "Canon XH A1"
NAME : "CINE.V "
GAMMA : CINE1
KNEE : LOW
BLACK : STRETCH
MASTER PED. : 0
SETUP LEVEL : 0
SHARPNESS : -4
H DTL FREQ : MIDDLE
DTL HV BAL : 0
CORING : 0
NR : OFF
NR2 : OFF
COLOR MAT. : CINE1
COLOR GAIN : -20
COLOR PHASE : 5
R GAIN : 0
G GAIN : 0
B GAIN : 0
RG MATRIX : 10 (+12)
RB MATRIX : -5
GR MATRIX : -5
GB MATRIX : -5 ( you miss that )
BR MATRIX : 5
BG MATRIX : 12 (you miss that )
TIMECODE : --:--:--:--

[rawfa]

Have it in mind though that even though the preset in question is used by combining different image control settings (low, black, knee, stretch, color matrix, etc) you do not have direct access to those settings. I think the only settings available on the HV20 are sharpness, contrast, saturation and a 4th one I cannot remember. I downloaded the manual but I really can't recall right now.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Xray, I see you indicate that the HV20 film like preset is really geared towards watching it on a TV or mon itor, and not suited for film transfer. Is this the case? If so, It possibly rules out purchasing an HV20, as I would like the option to transfer footage to film for Film Festivals, etc.

Maybe the 24p with out the film look would work for film out? Hmmm.

Thanks for the replies Xray, rawfa.

[xray]

That option costs you a lot, believe me, if your film is good enough, you can present it on bigscreen HDvideo. The worlds biggest doc festival IDFA is doing so. And if ... IF!! you want a handycam film --> 35mm and there is +cash, you can and need to work on it to do so, this preset will not hinder you doing that. HV20 is a nice camcorder with 24p/25p motion that simulates the film motion.

Its build to bring you a small 'B' cam. Expectations that are too high is no good for anyone, but this cam helps you in creating stories.

[rawfa]

One thing is for sure. At this price this baby looks unbeatable. There's no other camera that offers progressive shooting and nice cinema preset at such an affordable price. I'm sure that if you put your heart into it you'll be able to do great stuff with the HV20, Geoff. Remember that DV is not that old, and people were doing creative stuff before that with WAY less capable equipment. If that was my price range I would not think twice about investing on a HV20....of course, you can always wait for NAB and see if something better may come up.

[Nik Manning]

I understand that people are excited about this cam. Why not, its seemingly a little champ. But the reality is IT WILL NOT COMPARE to a 3chip HD cam.

Im sure it will be pretty good, I am sure some users of the HV20 will produce better results than some users of the A1/HVX. But that doesnt mean the cam is comparable it means that the users arent.

Well I have to disagree and say IT WILL COMPARE to a 3 chip HD cam. Sony Fx1 is a 3 chip HD cam. FX1 had no XLR or 24p or hdmi. I believe it will compare to that easily.

I also think it will compare to the A1 and G1 if the quality specs are close to the HV10. This is a camera that isn't even out yet. Every month cameras get better and better. PEACE

[Sean Michael]

I like the car/racetrack analogies. In the hands of Le Mans champ Hurley Haywood, a well-equipped Civic can run laps around a Porsche Turbo. Hurley knows how to exploit the limits of his vehicle, while the novice driver will pilot his Porsche off track, into the wall. :happy:

The HV20 has all the horsepower it needs. An experienced, talented operator working with an HV20 will run laps around a newb with a more expensive camera.

Yeah, you might not want to show up at a professional narrative shoot brandishing one as your "A" camera. OTOH, I suspect we'll see some great documentaries and shorts shot soley with the HV20.

I wasn't even planning on buying a new "consumer" cam, but the HV20 is impossible to resist.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Well, unless something shows up at NAB that has 24P for $2500.00 or less, I may just have to purchase this puppy. I was just commenting on another forum how frustrated I am that Panasonic has releasd a "pro" AVCHD model with no 24P capability. What excited me about AVCHD was the whole 1080/24P spec. No one has taken advantage of this yet. Nab maybe? And of course, editing for Macs. But this is a whole different thread topic. Hopefully a few early buyers of the HV20 will chime in on how it is before NAB, then once NAB is over, I can make a sound decision as to what cam to buy.

[Kholi]

I like the car/racetrack analogies. In the hands of Le Mans champ Hurley Haywood, a well-equipped Civic can run laps around a Porsche Turbo. Hurley knows how to exploit the limits of his vehicle, while the novice driver will pilot his Porsche off track, into the wall. :happy:

The HV20 has all the horsepower it needs. An experienced, talented operator working with an HV20 will run laps around a newb with a more expensive camera.

Yeah, you might not want to show up at a professional narrative shoot brandishing one as your "A" camera. OTOH, I suspect we'll see some great documentaries and shorts shot soley with the HV20.

I wasn't even planning on buying a new "consumer" cam, but the HV20 is impossible to resist.

Exactly. I agree completely. I've seen, first hand, an owner tuned Honda Civic waste a mint NSX. I'm not saying the HV20 is gonna smoke anything or anyone, but I'm pretty confident that when the first narrative 35mm (or not) footage shows up, it's gonna get crazy.

[GlimmerGhost]

Got mine secured at www.mediasupplystore.com (http://www.mediasupplystore.com) and now it's all about the wait till april 6th, that's when most of us are either gonna be really happy... or really pissed.
Me? I'm with Barry, it'l be what it'l be, a Robert Rodriguez cam for sure.

[Elton]

"Who's planning to buy an HV20"

Funny, my brother-in-law is getting an HDTV and asked me if there was a decent little camcorder for a grand or less that would really shine on his new TV. Guess what I recommended? :)

It ain't just for filmmakers, that's for sure.

[Kholi]

I'm with Barry, it'l be what it'l be, a Robert Rodriguez cam for sure.

Where's Gobo at!?!? I told you, GOBO!! I SAID IT FIRST!

[Justin Kuhn]

Oh, sure, Kholi....rub my face in it, why don't you?

[Kholi]

LOL. I told you, the prophecy is being fulfilled. Prepare for the darkening of the morning sky.

[bustak]

people are comparing the HV20 to the other Canon HD cameras & the HVX200, but how will it compare to the DVX100b?

I mean it's native 16:9, it's high def, w/ 24p & a "cinema" preset!

So how will it fair against the DVX? The DVX100x has a XLR mic connection & the user has access to adjusting the image. But the DVX is a toaster (size wise) compared to the HV20 plus $1,500 more in price!

I'm selling my 2nd camera (GS400) in order to buy the HV20, but to be honest, if it's somewhat comparable image wise to the DVX100b I might be putting that up for sale too! Those are rather strong words, but the type of shooting I'm going to be doing in a couple of months (gorilla, gun & run in a Asian country), the HV20 might be a god send!

[rawfa]

What?! You'll be shooting running gorillas with a gun in Asia?!
Just kidding. I too sometimes feel the weight of portability. Today I went to shoot an interview for a documentary I'm shooting and the woman I was going to interview lived on the 7th floor with no elevator. I had my back pack fully loaded (the A1, mics, batts, cables, reflector, etc) plus a big tripod on my hands....of course, when I turned on the A1 and took a look at that beautiful image it was all worth it :D

[Nik Manning]

people are comparing the HV20 to the other Canon HD cameras & the HVX200, but how will it compare to the DVX100b?

I mean it's native 16:9, it's high def, w/ 24p & a "cinema" preset!

So how will it fair against the DVX? The DVX100x has a XLR mic connection & the user has access to adjusting the image. But the DVX is a toaster (size wise) compared to the HV20 plus $1,500 more in price!

I'm selling my 2nd camera (GS400) in order to buy the HV20, but to be honest, if it's somewhat comparable image wise to the DVX100b I might be putting that up for sale too! Those are rather strong words, but the type of shooting I'm going to be doing in a couple of months (gorilla, gun & run in a Asian country), the HV20 might be a god send!

hhmmm bustak I can't say I would recommend selling your dvx for a hv20 unless you knew first hand that it had what you needed. A lot of folks still ask for the dvx100 by name when shooting movies so I think it might be a good idea to have it around.

With that said if you are the one shooting the movies and it does what you need then yeah do it but remember no xlr, no advanced image control, no semi pro focus/zoom control. I think a HV20 + Redrock Micro might be a better way to go for most folks shooting films. Unless it is a documentary then skip the adapter.:) Remember the dvx came out a long time ago. It is amazing that it has stayed on top this long.

[bustak]

hhmmm bustak I can't say I would recommend selling your dvx for a hv20 unless you knew first hand that it had what you needed. like I said, those are STRONG words, & I wouldn't sell my DVX without some deep thought & playing around w/ the HV20 for a little while! It is a doco, so I would skip the Redrock for sure.

You bring up some really good points! THANX!

What?! You'll be shooting running gorillas with a gun in Asia?! :)

[Mark Dog]

yea just had my dvx for a lottle over year and wouldnt sell it, but seriously thinking about getting the hv20 seen hv10 and it non proggersive footage and it looks damn good i must say know get that with a progressive image and mic input lower lux and basic cinematome sounds good im just waiting ot see some footage but the this hv20 certainly sounds like the little engine that could !!!!

peace n luv

Mark Dog

[bustak]

^ there's footage on this site (poorly translated from Japanese to English):
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2 Fav%2Fdocs%2F20070207%2Fzooma294.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Whoever shot it did a bad job, but you'll get the idea!

[jenningsp]

i just did some research on the light sensitivity of the HV20.

the HV20 is rated 3 lux at 1/30th (assuming full gain) so it should be 5 lux at 1/50th.
For you non PAL users 5 lux at 1/48th.

the A1 is rated at Approx. 5 lux (shutter speed 1/50,Gain 18dB)

so it's the same rating as the A1. i think this is because it has such a short lens (10x vs. 20x) and it has such a large image sensor (1/2.7 inch vs. 1/3)

this is great news for me!!!!!

it's sill not a DVX though... 3 lux (F1.6, 18 dB gain, 50 IRE video output) - i think IRE is the same as shutter speed????

[BARYE]

the HV10 is now being sold online for about $800 with free shipping (http://techbargains.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=23287634/search=canon%2520hv10/sort_type=bottomline).

Canon is apparently preparing the price gradient for the imminent arrival of the HV20.

[GlimmerGhost]

Still goin at $900 at places like B&H and Adorama, those are the only prices I trust. Most of those other sites (DBuys, butterflyphoto) are the notorious and Evil New York Shops, they will bait you... and then switch you. And then you'll be like, damn wtf, where am I? They must have switched me but they never told me where they were switchin me to! So if you do buy from them make sure you have mapquest on your phone so you can find your way back home :)

[Barry_Green]

The price isn't all that "gradient" either; I got my HV20 for not much more than that from an authorized Canon dealer.

[BARYE]

The price isn't all that "gradient" either; I got my HV20 for not much more than that from an authorized Canon dealer.

the HV20 is for sale now ??

[Barry_Green]

For pre-order. I was told it'd be here by the first week of April, and maybe sooner.

[SamKam]

The price isn't all that "gradient" either; I got my HV20 for not much more than that from an authorized Canon dealer.

From whom did you order, if I can ask?

[Barry_Green]

mediasupplystore.com

[SamKam]

thank you

[Artscroll]

Pre-ordered mine from Best Buy today. I heard an inside tip that they are getting it early. Will see.

[GlimmerGhost]

I was told it'd be here by the first week of April, and maybe sooner.

He told you that? Damn they never tell me anything! It must be the pull of your name Barry, they just can't help it ("that was Barry Green on the line, send him an HV10 with the 10 crossed off with a 20... use a sharpie and scotch tape... we gotta stall for time dammit!")

Actually it was funny, the first thing Chris told me was "Holy Crap I thought his name seemed familier!" to which I responded, "That's right... him and me are Bros, we are gonna hang out with our HV20's and shoot the next Star Wars fan film like Dorkman vs. Ryan." and this is where I heard the click.

*everything underlined was not actually said, rather it was made up by Glimmer's overactive imagination.

[Darth Bunnykins]

I'm sure I don't need to ask this but I'm going to any way 'cause I'm a geek jones'n fo r a fix: if you own an A1 and get an HV20, please put the HV20 through it's paces and report back with your opinios/critiques/raves as how it stands up to the A1.

Thanks,

[GlimmerGhost]

Hey, I just called mediasupplystore.com, my HV20 is arriving on monday the 26th, whoohoo!!!

[Spinflight]

Just got the HV20 today. I gotta say when we compared the image to the H1 and the A1, to me, the image looked actually better on the HV20. It seemed to be sharper in my opinon. The H1 was going into the Panasonic 17 monitor SDI and the HV20 going in RGB. You would think it would be the other way around. From what I could see, the image for a $,1000 camera was incredible. This camera basically says what do you need a 3 chip camera for. I think the HV20 chip might be noisier than on the other cameras but for the money, it's a great second camera and would cut in nicely. Anyone who's thinking about getting this camera shouldn't hesitate. It's that good.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Just got the HV20 today. I gotta say when we compared the image to the H1 and the A1, to me, the image looked actually better on the HV20. It seemed to be sharper in my opinon. The H1 was going into the Panasonic 17 monitor SDI and the HV20 going in RGB. You would think it would be the other way around. From what I could see, the image for a $,1000 camera was incredible. This camera basically says what do you need a 3 chip camera for. I think the HV20 chip might be noisier than on the other cameras but for the money, it's a great second camera and would cut in nicely. Anyone who's thinking about getting this camera shouldn't hesitate. It's that good.
Did you have any problem with the auto-focus while zooming in? A couple of people have complained about that.

I plan on getting the HV20 next week.

Cheers,

Mike

[Bruce Morgan]

Look forward to high quality digital projection at many festival venues.
In fact I wish we had a list of Who is still projecting Film and Who is projecting digital .??
I am a long term film (35mm) D P and even I see the writing on the wall .

Film is still the best, but I worry less and less about FILM PROJECTION .

First of the Canon hv20 can give you more picture info(than a dvx100a) at 24p 1080 ! So I dont see why you Cant use it in a tape to film transferr ..i am sure of it .
But you better hold down all highlights and supress use of red in ANY scene .

I love this thread as I am learning about the weakness of this camera -But it wont stop me from buying it .
Cheers
Bruce

[Spinflight]

Did you have any problem with the auto-focus while zooming in? A couple of people have complained about that.

I plan on getting the HV20 next week.

Cheers,

Mike


You have to get used to the instant auto focus characteristic of this camera. When I zoom in with my HVX or the FX1, the final focus is slow and predictable whereas the focus on the HV20 "pops" into focus after the zoom creating a feel of not focusing properly. Each camera is doing the same thing but it's just really different the way the HV20 does it. The snap into focus the HV20 does is something you have to get used to.

[Spinflight]

The image stabilizer is no joke. Try to shoot with it off and you'll get dizzy. The camera mic seems to be really good as well as the speaker for playback. You get a lot of bang for the buck.

When you buy your extra battery make sure you get a charger for it as well since the power supply charges the battery while attached to the camera. This sucks but oh well, you can't have everything for a grand. The tiny little light built into the camera is pretty effective up to about 5 feet or so. The drawback to the light is that it is positioned under the lens which doesn't make for great lighting. I'm surpised at how much light this tiny little bulb puts out though.

[rapsucks]

Barry says that a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera. On principle, I agree. All things being equal, more imaging surface area equals more image capturing accuracy.

But I was wondering how a CMOS chip would compare to a CCD--or to three CCDs.

It could go either way. HDV doesn't have the power of DVCPROHD (argue with me if you will, but the truth is in the numbers) so I don't think this is going to replace the HVX anytime soon. It will give the F1 a run for its money, though.

[Spinflight]

Barry says that a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera. On principle, I agree. All things being equal, more imaging surface area equals more image capturing accuracy.

But I was wondering how a CMOS chip would compare to a CCD--or to three CCDs.

It could go either way. HDV doesn't have the power of DVCPROHD (argue with me if you will, but the truth is in the numbers) so I don't think this is going to replace the HVX anytime soon. It will give the F1 a run for its money, though.

I don't even want to shoot with my FX1 now that I've compared the footage. I only use the Sony for shooting scrapbook personal material anyway. My HVX is the main camera. I would never show up to a set with the HV20 as a main camera. It would just look silly even though the footage is cleaner than the FX1.

Whatever Canon is doing they're doing HDV right. You can even capture RGB to DVCPRO HD with a capture card and edit in DVCPRO. The footage holds up very well. I didn't capture sound so I'm not sure if both RGB and Compsite/LR sound outputs remain live when plugged in.

I don't see how anyone anymore can say a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera. Canon flipped the script with this one. I think 3 chip cameras are going to be a thing of the past. If 3 chips are so much better, the Panavision Genesis would have 3 chips and Jim Jannard would've put 3 chips in the RED camera instead of just one. The 3 chips is better than 1 argument doesn't fly anymore it seems.

[ecking]

I think in good brightly lit areas 3 chip vs one good chip is negligible.
Low light is wear is counts.
And the genesis etc. isn't a fair arguement because the sensors and lens on those things are huge.

[Mark Dog]

hey spin how about some footage in 24p and in 24p cinema mode pleeaseeeeeeee hook us up

peace n luv

Mark Dog

[Barry_Green]

Barry says that a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera.
Not necessarily. What I said was that 3 chips have always been better, for good reasons; I dont' think we've ever had a case of a one-chip camera being "better" or delivering better images than a comparable 3-chip camera. But as you point out, there is something different going on here: 1 CMOS vs. three CCDs. That's a difference, perhaps a very significant difference.

But I do suspect that three CMOS with a prism would be better than one bayer-pattern CMOS.

I also made those statements before Barlow pointed out that the chip is actually 3-megapixel, bayered down to 2 megapixels. I thought initially that it was a 1920x1080 CMOS, and bayered down from there.

In the end, none of that matters, as long as the footage delivers what you expect, right? How it arrives at its destination is only relevant if the footage doesn't work right for some reason. If the footage looks great and behaves predictably, who cares if it's from one chip or three, CMOS or CCD? The only times that kind of stuff will be relevant is when faced with artifacts inherent in those capture systems (such as vertical smear from CCD, or "rolling shutter" from CMOS).

[Spinflight]

I think in good brightly lit areas 3 chip vs one good chip is negligible.
Low light is wear is counts.
And the genesis etc. isn't a fair arguement because the sensors and lens on those things are huge.

Nobody ever made a comparison of this camera to a Genesis or a Red. Those are examples of 1 chip cameras telling us it doesn't have to be 3 chips.

The comparison is made against the FX1 which it seems to be better than.

[Bruce Morgan]

Barry any details or examples of "rolling shutter from cmos"?

[Barry_Green]

Search for it, there are lots of examples; there was a German or Italian site that showed some videos of what happens. It's an odd effect that is caused by the way CMOS cameras process their "shutter", from top to bottom progressively. So what can happen is if you pan horizontally, vertical objects may look like they're "leaning" for example. One example I remember seeing was of a soccer game; the goal posts leaned to the left or the right depending on which way the camera was panned.
http://web.tiscali.it/rudiversal/images/Rolling%20Shutter%20Effekt%20HC1.JPG

CCD cameras expose the entire sensor, then shut it off and read out the image. So the whole frame, top to bottom, is exposed at once (i.e., simultaneously). With CMOS it can be done that way, but typically they don't do it that way, they implement a "rolling shutter" which means that one row is exposing while another row is "shut off" and reading out.
http://www.ptgrey.com/support/kb/index.asp?a=4&q=115

Think about it in context with an interlaced frame; in an interlaced "frame" you have even lines exposed at 1/60th of a second, and odd lines exposed during the next 1/60th, but it's combined into one "frame"; the result is you see the comb artifacting typical in interlaced video. Rolling Shutters do something sort of similar but then again, entirely different. They can expose and read out each line at different times than the next line, which gives CMOS the capability of executing incredibly fast frame rates for high-speed camera situations. But in normal use it just ends up making the video look a little odd because of how vertical objects lean during horizontal pans. On DVInfo somebody posted some footage that looked downright bizarre, he shot a desk fan spinning and the rolling shutter really interacted very weirdly with the fan; the speed of the fan and the speed of the shutter combined to create some very bizarre looking video.
http://www.fxsupport.de/fx.mpg

But, on the other hand, CMOS is immune to vertical streaking, which affects CCDs. Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Each creates artifacts; the trick is in knowing when it'll happen, how to avoid it, and to pick the right tool for the particular job.

[Kholi]

I don't even want to shoot with my FX1 now that I've compared the footage. I only use the Sony for shooting scrapbook personal material anyway. My HVX is the main camera. I would never show up to a set with the HV20 as a main camera. It would just look silly even though the footage is cleaner than the FX1.

Whatever Canon is doing they're doing HDV right. You can even capture RGB to DVCPRO HD with a capture card and edit in DVCPRO. The footage holds up very well. I didn't capture sound so I'm not sure if both RGB and Compsite/LR sound outputs remain live when plugged in.

I don't see how anyone anymore can say a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera. Canon flipped the script with this one. I think 3 chip cameras are going to be a thing of the past. If 3 chips are so much better, the Panavision Genesis would have 3 chips and Jim Jannard would've put 3 chips in the RED camera instead of just one. The 3 chips is better than 1 argument doesn't fly anymore it seems.

Spin did you do some RGB capture? Or HDMI? I am waiting on my new system to pick up an HV20 + Intensity card for some HDMI fun.

[agwah]

Search for it, there are lots of examples; there was a German or Italian site that showed some videos of what happens. It's an odd effect that is caused by the way CMOS cameras process their "shutter", from top to bottom progressively. So what can happen is if you pan horizontally, vertical objects may look like they're "leaning" for example. One example I remember seeing was of a soccer game; the goal posts leaned to the left or the right depending on which way the camera was panned.
http://web.tiscali.it/rudiversal/images/Rolling%20Shutter%20Effekt%20HC1.JPG

CCD cameras expose the entire sensor, then shut it off and read out the image. So the whole frame, top to bottom, is exposed at once (i.e., simultaneously). With CMOS it can be done that way, but typically they don't do it that way, they implement a "rolling shutter" which means that one row is exposing while another row is "shut off" and reading out.
http://www.ptgrey.com/support/kb/index.asp?a=4&q=115

Think about it in context with an interlaced frame; in an interlaced "frame" you have even lines exposed at 1/60th of a second, and odd lines exposed during the next 1/60th, but it's combined into one "frame"; the result is you see the comb artifacting typical in interlaced video. Rolling Shutters do something sort of similar but then again, entirely different. They can expose and read out each line at different times than the next line, which gives CMOS the capability of executing incredibly fast frame rates for high-speed camera situations. But in normal use it just ends up making the video look a little odd because of how vertical objects lean during horizontal pans. On DVInfo somebody posted some footage that looked downright bizarre, he shot a desk fan spinning and the rolling shutter really interacted very weirdly with the fan; the speed of the fan and the speed of the shutter combined to create some very bizarre looking video.
http://www.fxsupport.de/fx.mpg

But, on the other hand, CMOS is immune to vertical streaking, which affects CCDs. Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Each creates artifacts; the trick is in knowing when it'll happen, how to avoid it, and to pick the right tool for the particular job.
great samples, here is what happens on the HV20 (from the "hv20-H264-24p.mov")

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/17084/1174703396.jpg

[Barry_Green]

Not sure whether that's really showing the "rolling shutter" or not, because the camera wasn't level/square to begin with (but those shots are certainly macroblocked all to hell.) I'll have to try playing it on my laptop, or out to a TV to see how it looks in motion; my creaky old desktop can't play full frame rate.

Weird effect going on in the front tire on the bottom picture, and similar but reverse effect on the white line: I don't know what to make of that; it almost looks like 4:2:0 color sampling but it's gray so... shouldn't be. Odd. But I bet you'd never see it in motion...

My HV20 was shipped today; should be here by Wed or Thu I'd guess.

[Artscroll]

My HV20 is backordered at Best Buy:crybaby: but I totally agree with you Barry, this sort of thing is probably imperceivable in "real time". However, the rolling shutter issue could be a real problem on slowed down 24p footage. I'm going to hold onto my 100B for shots like that.

I have to say that the uploaded videos I've seen so far of the HV20 have exceeded my expectations for someone who is not is the position of affording an HVX anytime soon.

[Bruce Morgan]

Barry
As Always -Great Input from you on the rolling shutter issue -THANKS
I assume every negative can eventually be an artistic positive with these known issue as "rolling shutter " We just keep working with the limits of what we know and then once in a while -THE HAPPY ACCIDENT .
Thanks agin Barry for a difinitive reply
Cheers
Bruce

[prisma]

great samples, here is what happens on the HV20 (from the "hv20-H264-24p.mov")

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/17084/1174703396.jpg

wooooaaa.... wait, where did you got that HV20 footage? where is the link??? :shocked:

[Elton]

wooooaaa.... wait, where did you got that HV20 footage? where is the link??? :shocked:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89642

Sign up if you're not already a member. Chris is very generous with hosting footage.

There are some pc friendly, pulldown removed clips on this page of the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=647504&posted=1#post647504

Divx and Wmv. Sorry, the wmv encoding came out weird with a greenish tint artifact, I think, due to using the flip4mac demo encoder. It should play smoothly for pc users with fairly fast machines though.

[rawfa]

Dennis Woods (brevis35) just posted a clip from the HV20 with the brevis35 that kicks some serious ass. I think this will be a great option for many who cannot afford the A1. The Hv20+brevis is looking like a pretty solid affordable combo.

[Mark Dog]

yea thank barry be sure to send us some footage when you gt your hand on the hv20 , show us some pretty pictures


peace n luv

Mark Dog

[Zak Forsman]

here's that posting of HV20/Brevis35 footage . --> http://www.cinevate.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4193

[savethestars]

I'm not sure what has become of this thread, but I will answer to the original post...I ordered my HV20 today from onecall.com, just in time for my cross country bicycle trip from San Diego, California to St. Augustine, Florida.

Some of you might remember me as a guy who had both a DVX100 and a A1 but had to sell both due to parental obligations...

Well, that said, to me the HV20 is a blessing because it is a guilt-free, seemingly wonderful 24p enabled camera to get things rolling...

I will let you know how it turned out...both the camera and the bike trip.

So far it seems like this is the camera I've been waiting for, for about
ten years now...

Best wishes!

[Bruce Morgan]

yes mediasupplystore is the way to go
i just called 1800 4511425. i spoke to Chris - What a deal!
They beat the local Hollywood store by quite a bit .
I am interested in the film look setting and to see if Marcus of DvFilms has any advice for setting up menues on this CanonHv 20 camera for a real film transfer ..so far all I see is mention of the film look when televised .

[Sean Michael]

My HV20 (also ordered from mediasupplystore) just arrived on my doorstep this afternoon. Battery is charging right now. I've already got the camera set in 24p and "cine" gamma mode. More updates as events warrant!

[GlimmerGhost]

I just got my hV20 today (mediasupplystore.com was the place to go, ask for chris) and shot some test footage in 24p cine mode. First let me say that the 24p mode made me feel like I was holding a professional camera in my hands and then when i put it up on the monitor I was like "ok I need to shoot a movie quick!" the picture is that good (I shot at night under a low watt bulb and there was practically no noise on the 30 inch I have. I like cine mode, but it was a little flat, which i guess you can change with Magic bullet or something, but then i started messing with the settings and realized after capture that the HV20 has alot of possibilities of making the fototage shot on cam to look alot like film. I'll be shooting a short scene for my film tomorrow (I am not wasting anytime, gotta win an oscar before any of you beat me to it) and i'll post the footage tomorrow. I'm sure Barry got his by now and is cracking away at the new HV20 Book so any questions can go to him... cause I have no clue what i'm doing yet.

[Barry_Green]

Mine is sitting here in the box. I just got back from the airport so I haven't had a chance to even open it up yet; that's tomorrow's task... :)

[-zach-]

I just got my hV20 today (mediasupplystore.com was the place to go, ask for chris) and shot some test footage in 24p cine mode. First let me say that the 24p mode made me feel like I was holding a professional camera in my hands

Do you have some footy you can upload?

[Kholi]

Glad everyone is having fun with their HV20's!!! Let's seeee some footage. i was just on the verge of ordering my HV20 + Intensity card... when Reel-Stream announced HYDRA for the HVx200. =\

Sadness.

[GlimmerGhost]

Ok, i got some footage for everyone to see, but I can't seem to be able to upload it to this site for some reason. So i uploaded it to youtube (i know I know, but when you have nothing else you try to make due). Personally i think the HV20 is a dream come true, but I'll let you people deciede. Forgive the quality and how short it is, I'll try to upload it directly here later.
the folowing links are the HV20 in cine mode (i didnt like) and Aperture-prio ae (which I did like) both in 24p

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEdpWnfemBM
2. http://youtube.com/watch?v=pUVvRU9OMEM

[Mark Dog]

thanx glimmerghost cant wait to you get link were we can down load it in full res footage look pretty good which one cinemode??? is it the first the one were the girls dancing ???, nice looking girl two :)

peace n luv

Mark Dog

[Mark Dog]

k i got it the first one is cinemode it looked kinda dull, the other one you shot outdoor am i correct ??


peace n luv

Mark Dog

[GlimmerGhost]

Yep. the first one is cine the second one is a setting that lets you mess with the exposure, as far as i tell cine mode dosnt let you work the exposre. The second one we shot out in the shade, and i did both aperture and cine and cine still looked dull even with sunlight. The other one looked good inside or outside, i even pointed the lens right at the sun wth my wife beside it and it gave her a cool spaghetti western look. Now the footage at full res is incredible, fills my 30'' screen and looks nice and neat.
as soon as I figure out how to work my FCP with HDV and can compress to 10mb I will upload it.