Quality loss when burning HD quicktime data in DVD studiopro [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

beno

02-01-2007, 10:03 AM

I'm exporting a quicktime file out of FCP... with use current settings... which are HD 1080 DVCPRO

When I burn the DVD out the quality is slightly worse than that in FCP.. why is this... it doesn't look professional at all... I need it to be super smooth and look like it does in FCP on the clients end... how is this acheived...? Thanks
Ben

David Saraceno

02-01-2007, 10:18 AM

DVD encodes and compresses significantly to mpeg2. It won't look as good due to what mpeg2 does to the original footage.

Without knowing about your encode settings for video and audio, encoder chosen, and type and length of footage, it's impossible to troubleshoot.

beno

02-01-2007, 10:24 AM

cheers for the reply... I'm aware of the encoding quality loss and I'm by no means a beginner, I'm using 8Mbps in DVDstudio pro's encoding preferences.... the footage on a TV looks compressed, to my eyes and doens't do it justice, how do they make hollywood DVDS? I presume their is a lot of hardware involved?

cheers

David Saraceno

02-01-2007, 10:30 AM

Sorry, but you stated that "when I burn the DVD out the quality is slightly worse than that is FCP .. why is this . . . " That's why I explained mpeg2 compression.

8 mbps has no significance unless you indicate how much footage in total minutes was encoded, how you treated audio (ac3 or aiff), what brand blank media, what encoder, and what the DVD was viewed on.

beno

02-01-2007, 10:38 AM

so what compression do blockbuster movies use then?

When I say 8MBPs that's the setting I set in DVDstudio pro in preferences.. I'm exporting the FCP file as a lossless DVCPRO HD quicktime file.

ozduc

02-01-2007, 11:00 AM

Are you burning the DVD to a HD-DVD or Blue Ray burner? If not you are downconverting to SD DVD. Are you looking at the DVD on a HD or SD TV? The lossless export out of FCP will still get compressed when put through DVD studio pro, so as to fit on the DVD.
As far as the Blockbuster Hollywood DVD's, they have a lot of hardware based encoding machines that cost a lot more than DVD studio pro.

doccutter

02-01-2007, 11:07 AM

At the same time, i've got some really good results just using FCP and dvd studio pro. I do it by exporting directly from the FCP timeline using compressor, even the presets look pretty good as long as you choose VBR multi-pass encoding. Give that a shot. You can then import those already compressed assets directly to DVDSP without reencoding.

David Saraceno

02-01-2007, 11:08 AM

so what compression do blockbuster movies use then?

When I say 8MBPs that's the setting I set in DVDstudio pro in preferences.. I'm exporting the FCP file as a lossless DVCPRO HD quicktime file.

Again, the encode rate of 8mbps must relate to how long the video in minute is.

And you appear to be using uncompressed aiff files. Combine a 8 mbps video encode that occasionally spikes and aiff audio rather than Dolby2, and that can result in poor video because the player can keep up with the combined video and audio rate.

encoding should be done in Compressor or bitvice, not inside DVDSP

JZalutsky

02-01-2007, 11:40 AM

8mbps is too high, its going to give you problems most dvds are at 6.5....8 is too high and is going to cause the dvd player to have problems keeping up. U also should be ussing compressor not dvd studio pro....dvd studio pro is pretty awful at compression compared to compressor

ozduc

02-01-2007, 12:32 PM

U also should be ussing compressor not dvd studio pro....dvd studio pro is pretty awful at compression compared to compressor

I was under the impression that DVD SP uses the same engine as compressor anyway. It just does it in the background without actually opening compressor. Or is there some other software at work in DVD SP?

beno

02-01-2007, 04:07 PM

hi. yeah that's right I'm downgrading to SD... I did it in FCP before by dropping the footage into a DV-pal sequence and rendering it out, but for some reason because there is a lot of white in this clip it looks terrible doing it this way... if I export using DVCPRO settings and let DVDstudio do the encoding I thought it may cut out one session of compression.

I thought the 8 is mb per second so it doesn't matter how long it is? It's only 3 minutes long.

Is there any harware I can buy for under £1000 to improve the quality of my DVD burns then? At the moment I'm wishing I'd stuck with DVX, HVX on DVD doesn't look any better even though it looks sexy in FCP.

Is 8MBPS really too high? I've used up to 9MBPS in the past and I've never had any problems, but I was wondering about that though.

Thanks for the continued help and patience guys, much appreciated.

beno

02-01-2007, 05:28 PM

in actual fact, what I'm seeing I think is just the horrible compression which mpeg2 delivers, anyone?

David Saraceno

02-01-2007, 05:40 PM

I was under the impression that DVD SP uses the same engine as compressor anyway. It just does it in the background without actually opening compressor. Or is there some other software at work in DVD SP?

That is correct.

But the other SIGNIFICANT ISSUE is audio encoding.

A substantial additional issue is spiking for video encoding.

This isn't just setting a bit rate; it's part art and part science.

Have you encoded to AC3/Dolby 2 audio?

What brand blank media?

Have you looked at BitVice from Innobits.de?

What set top are you viewing on?

Have you reduced you maximum bit rate to under 7mbps?

ozduc

02-01-2007, 06:24 PM

beno

02-01-2007, 06:27 PM

hi David, thanks for still trying to help me, much appreciated.

I haven't encoded to AC3, I used to always do that but the quality was always much lower, I'll do that now.

Set top? I'm using an apple cinema screen. And a big sony (about 4 years old) TV to view the burned stuff.

I'm using Panasonic DVDs, does this really make a difference? What do you suggest?

Do you think bitvice is better than compressor (im so sick of unable to connect to background process)? Worth the extra cash?

I've reduced to under 7Mbps,

thanks again, anything more advise you can think of would be amazing, cheers

beno

02-01-2007, 06:30 PM

thanks Oz, I'm not downconverting to DV though, I'm trying to downconvert to SD. Like commercial DVDs or anything which you see on TV which isn't HD.

cheers tho

THoff

02-01-2007, 06:51 PM

in actual fact, what I'm seeing I think is just the horrible compression which mpeg2 delivers, anyone?The MPEG2 on DVDs is 4:2:0, so it will never look as nice as DVCPro50 or DVCProHD with 4:2:2 color sampling.

aurantaurant

02-01-2007, 09:08 PM

You need to edit in the HD timeline, then export through compressor to an SD video.

You're compressing it too much the way you did it before...

Don't move the footage into a DV sequence.

My experience has been excellent doing it this way...

HD Timeline >export to> SD Mpeg2

DavidBeier

02-02-2007, 12:53 AM

^
What he said. Never add more compression than you need to. Remember, even the all mighty DVCPro HD is still compressed so adding DV compression over that (4:1:1) then compressing again as an MPEG 2 (4:2:0) isn't going to give you the best results. I don't use Mac so I don't know how helpful i can be but I simply export my timeline as a QT Reference then take it into the compressor and make it MPEG 2. That way the origional HD files are being compressed.

As for Hollywood, they tend to actually use 3-5 mbs normally, 7 mbs max, but they've got better hardware. They also have the advantage of having shot 35mm! 720p DVCProHD is nice but it's not the same as 2k or 4k scans with 4:4:4 color sampling. That said, I've seen stuff shot in 720p that looks on par with a lot of Hollywood films on DVD. I always compare my own stuff from the HVX200 to my professional DVDs and usually the only differences in quality I see is that they have been lighting, higher production values, and of course higher lattitude.

beno

02-02-2007, 04:58 AM

cracked it! thanks to everyone who replied.. especially david, I\ve been experinmenting with many more presets, Compressor takes about 10 times as long as just a straight export out of FCP and the results were unbelievably better. Also I used the Dolby 2 audio which I think helped.

So bottom line, don't export with FCP, and use dolby 2. I found the 90minute "best" setting to be great.

Thanks again

David Saraceno

02-02-2007, 09:46 AM

No problem. By set top I mean DVD player. The older the worse.

Always use progressive scan DVD players with component outputs or better.

I always use either Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden.

Ted Spencer

02-03-2007, 03:03 AM

No problem. By set top I mean DVD player. The older the worse.

Always use progressive scan DVD players with component outputs or better.

I always use either Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden.

The player makes a huge difference. When I went from a $250 JVC XVSA75 progressive scan player to a $900 Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai a few years ago the improvement was stunning. Especially after I went in and tweaked the settings a bit, particularly in terms of upping the various detail levels (the player has a ton of adjustable pix parameters). On my Panasonic 42" plasma EDTV a good DVD title rivals the picture I get with HBO movies in HD over my cable system. You can tell it's SD, but it's pretty freaking awesome SD.

Regarding the FCP output to DVDSP question, as others have said, Compressor is the answer. I'm getting outstanding results on the Pioneer player with HVX 720/24 footage output from FCP/Compressor/DVDSP. Editing in a full HD 720p timeline and exporting to Compressor using 2 pass VBR mode at the highest setting the program will allow length-wise results in a great looking DVD. Compressor takes a really long time to do its thing, but it's worth the wait.

BenB

02-03-2007, 09:47 AM

Compressor allows you to set much more of the details involved in the encoding. DVDSP gives you very little control. The book "Compresor Quick-Reference Guide" has a really great explination of how to convert from HD to SD for DVD authoring.

Never set your compression Avg above 6, nor the Max above 7. Most set top players can't handle more than that, according to Bruce Nazarian, DVD encoding guru.

The image quality of BlockBuster DVDs is good, but still technically not as good as the original film version. Plus, those are using dual layer DVDs, which hold more, etc. And they use very expensive hard ware converters. Compressor can give you excelent results, but only if you use it properly.

Get the book, it's only about $23 and so very worth it. It shows you settings that are not generally intuative for what you're trying to do. And don't ever let DVDSP encode for you.

Always use Dolby 2.0 for you sound, always, and leave it at it's defaults. Simply selecting 90 min Best is fine, but there's more in Compressor you can do to make it better. Get the book.

Finally, when going from FCP directly to Compressor, you're actually using what gives the best results. FCP and Compressor work hand in hand, both having input into how the original footage is compressed in the first place, ignoring FCP's render files for Timeline playback.

As for BitVice being better than Compressor, not at all, no way. It's faster, but also super limited, you don't have very much control, and it only does one thing, MPEG-2 SD, period. It does NOT do better compression. For what it does, it's "as good as" Compressor, faster for sure, but not "better" in any way.

David Saraceno

02-03-2007, 10:24 AM

I disagree (respectfully) with Ben's comment " . . . As for BitVice being better than Compressor, not at all, no way."

I use it almost exclusively and to my untrained eye it seems to produce better encodes.

I also have been exploring options in the PC world, ie Cinema Craft and ProCoder, but the issue is how to use DVCProHD source video on a Windows box natively.

Don't think it can be done.

But as Ben and others point out:

1. Keep maximum bit rates at 7mpbs or lower and target to about 6.5 or lower.

2. Dolby2/AC3 audio; not uncompressed aiff audio.

3. Good quality blanks

4. Progressive scan DVD players

BenB

02-03-2007, 10:36 AM

I disagree (respectfully) with Ben's comment " . . . As for BitVice being better than Compressor, not at all, no way."

I use it almost exclusively and to my untrained eye it seems to produce better encodes.

I've done, along with others in the industry, many, many, many side by side tests. BitVice has NEVER shown better quality encoding over Compressor. It's easy to mess up Compressor with bad settings, settings you're not allowed to access with Bit Vice Pro. But using Compressor properly, Bit Vice in now way can do better image quality.

David Saraceno

02-03-2007, 11:13 AM

Ben:

I also have done that testing and have compared BitVice to Compressor in the same way. There others in the industry both here and in the UK that say Compressor cannot come close to BitVice 1.7.

I've been doing DVD encoding since the first shipping Mac and DVDSP 1.0.

I even beta tested v.1, 2, and 3 for Apple.

Compressor 2.1 is a vast improvement.

Previously there were serious issues with Compressor spiking.

I and others believe BitVice does a better job. But I disagree that "BitVice has NEVER shown better quality."

Let's say we agree to disagree.

david

BenB

02-03-2007, 11:50 AM

I'd love to see data showing Bit Vice doing better quality encoding than Compressor. Maybe way back when, but not today. If I ever saw the proof, I'd believe it. But as of today, I've not seen Bit Vice to anything any better than Compressor 2. DVDSP has nothing to do with it, anyway.

If I saw some evidience that showed Compressor 2 is inferior to BitVice Pro 1.7. If I actually saw that, I'd believe it. I've heard the "claim" made, but have not seen real evidence. Rumors are shallow.

You've been doing DVD encoding since the first Mac was ever shipped? Like, before there were DVDs?

My comparisson are between Compressor 2 and Bit Vice 1.7 sepcifically.

Seriously, if you can provide links to comparison tests, I'd love to read them. Cause I get told this all the time, but have yet to see a published test to that fact.

David Saraceno

02-03-2007, 01:05 PM

No, I said the first shipping Mac and DVD SP 1.0.

It cost a grand back then and was basically an Astarte (sp) product.

As to testing "data" I don't know what you are looking for. I evaluate based on what is shown or displayed and what others see as good encoding.

What you might find pleasing or bad is not what others might find pleasing or bad.

My reference to DVD SP is made to indicate that I've been through the beta testing evaluations and usefulness of Compressor or the previous mpeg2 export out of QT and FCP before that was changed.

So DVD SP was tied to the mpeg2 engine with each release of Pro.

I look for links Ben, but to me this data is entirely subjective.

Tony Torn

02-03-2007, 07:24 PM

I've been getting good reults using compressor best quality 90 min, but most of what I do is short. I wish there was a thirty minute option. There is for dvd hd, which would be great to do, but I don't have an HD dvd burner yet. Tried to compress the 30 min hd dvd and use the file for a dvd studio sd disc, but of course it didn't work.

Are ther better options in compressor if your output is 30 min or less?

bgundu

02-03-2007, 08:00 PM

I think it's safe to say that both Compressor and BitVice are excellent products. Just don't use Quicktime to create Mpeg2s.

Digihead

02-04-2007, 12:08 AM

I too use Bitvice for encoding SD DVD's. I find it is superior to Compressor when you are looking to create an mpeg2 with a max data rate below 7 and avg around 3.5. I made the switch to bitvice when I just couldn't get rid of some pixelation in a couple complex scenes with dissolves when using compressor. Didn't want to spend the money, but the results were superior, it's worth the money.