External Hard Drive and the P2 Flow

[jackfate]

After formatting my external drive (a lacie 500gb), erasing everything on my drive, I mounted my hard drive to my macbook and got the two partitions to appear on my desktop (1 for each P2 card).

But I noticed that my drive didnt show up in any other capacity. And my camera was not hooked up to the drive at this point.

My question is:

Once you format an external HDD, is that drive only good to use with P2 cards. Can other files not get onto it and be located?

I realize that you have to erase everything when you format the drive, but I figured that once your formatted you would be able to use the drive per normal again?

Any help is greatly appreciated. -jackfate

[Barry_Green]

Only use a drive you can dedicate to that purpose of P2 offloading.

When the camera formats the drive, it doesn't create any partitions. It leaves it all as one big unallocated potential pool, but no active actual usable space. For each time you offload a card from the camera to the drive, it creates a new partition from that pool. So if you had a 500gb drive, and offloaded one 4gb card, it would show up as a 4gb external drive. If you look at the drive in the drive manager software you'd see that it has one 4gb partition and 496gb of unallocated space.

So no, you can't use it as a regular drive, if you're going to use it for P2 offloading from the camera too.

[jackfate]

Thanks Barry,

so essentially there is no use in using such a big drive as my P2 offloader, since it can only hold 16GB of footage (I have 2 8Gb cards)? Or is there something I am missing.

[x002657]

More accurately I think you may have misinterpreted his reply.

He covers offloading P2 cards in his "HVX Book" on pages 93 -> 97.

I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding:
- you have 2 8 GB cards ("A" & "B")

- as they fill up, or come close enough that you must stop shooting, reset the menu to offload the cards, then offload to the hard drive (after it's been formatted by the camera).

- as A offloads, you'll be creating a 1st partition of 8 GB

- as B offloads, you'll be creating a 2nd partition of 8 GB

- empty the cards, then begin shooting again.

- once full, offload A (that will create a 3rd partition of 8 GB with the new footage)

- offload B (that will create a 4th partition of 8 GB with the new fottage)

continue those steps as the cards fill up.

Just remember that you will be limited to a max of 15 partitions, so you might be able to offload card A 8 times, and card B 7 times. I'm pretty sure offloading is controlled by the camera, so once your offloads have created 15 partitions, the camera will not create any more partitions. You must stop shooting, or use another drive. The "ideal" size drive for YOU in this offloading scenario would be 15 X 8 GB = 120 GB, i.e. max partitions of 15, times the number of GB per P2 card. As you obtain larger P2 cards, you'll make more and more use of the space on the hard drive you've dedicated for offloading purposes.

Even if the cards aren't chock full to 8 GB, each partition created will STILL be 8 GB. That's one of the "eccentricities" of the FAT32 file structure. So, if you end up with your last shoot to card A with only 1 GB of footage, when you offload it, I'm pretty sure it will still be created as an 8 GB partition on the hard drive.

Until you get larger cards the most you'll be able to store on your 500 GB drive is 120 GB. the advantage is that you don't lose that space forever. Once you get larger P2 crads, simply make sure you've copied all the clips to your computer and the offload-only hard drive is empty. Then reformat the dedicated-to-offload hard drive through the camera. Then, I believe you'll even be able to "mix" the size of partitions. (Barry...am I right about that one???) Example:
4 P2 cards = 2 @ 8GB each (A & B), and 2 @ 16 GB each (C & D)
Offloading A creates partition # 1 of 8 GB
Offloading B creates partition # 2 of 8 GB
Offloading C createa partition # 3 of 16 Gb
Offloading D createa partition # 4 of 16 Gb.

Even in the 4-card scenario, youre STILL limited to 15 partitions.

Another way to consider it: is that each offload equals a partition on the hard drive, REGARDLESS of the size of the P2 card being offloaded, i.e. 1 offload = 1 partition, and you're limited to 15 partitions.

BARYY, PLEASE CONFIRM.DENY THE "MULTI-SIZED PARTITIONING" IS CORRECT!!!

Thanks,
x

[TedRR]

Is there any way to name these folders, "partitions"? i.e. card 1, card 2, card 3 etc.? It doesn't sound like it.
Do you just have to use "Details" with time and date to sort it out?

[cafe637]

Are you saying that I can store my p2 card data directly to an external hard drive without using a laptop?

[x002657]

Is there any way to name these folders, "partitions"? i.e. card 1, card 2, card 3 etc.? It doesn't sound like it.
Do you just have to use "Details" with time and date to sort it out?

The short answer is: "No, I'm not aware of a way to name them."

The rest of this is long...apologies for that, but it presents one way to keep track of your footage. There are probably better ways. Also, I don't mean to insult anyone with the relative simplicity of this, but it seems lots of folks are confused about it.

My understanding is that the camera somehow controls the naming of the clips. It's been a long time since I've "played" in FAT32 land, but I don't recall any way to "name" a partition. Usually, when formatting under Windows, each partition is given a drive letter. In FAT32, they are often "logical" drives/partitions, i.e. they may reside on one physical hard drive, but if that hard drive can hold more than 8 GB, the FAT32 file system "tells" the OS to look at each 8GB chunk that's been used as individual hard drives. (That's also a large reason why DV is/can be difficult to do under Windows 98. I believe it was the last OS from Microsoft that used ONLY the FAT32 file system.I think under Win 98, no "hard disk" could be larger than 8 GB.)

So, after unloading 15 times, then, when you connect the hard drive to a computer, then Right Click on Start/Explore, rather than seeing just a "C" drive, you would also see drives labeled/"named" D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q,and R. (Obviously, you can't go past Z).

Note these are partitions on a single physical hard drive, not folders as typically used in Windows. (I know much less about OSX, so I'll leave that for someone else to address).

Here's a possible way to keep track of your footage:
- fill up Card A
- fill up Card B
- offload Card A to the D-T-O drive (the "Dedicated-To-Offload drive. That will create a partition that will be known as "D" drive once you hook it up to a computer...presuming you don't already have a D drive. If you already have a D, then the offloaded clips will appear on/as a drive with the next letter in the alphabet).

- offload Card B to the D-T-O drive (the "Dedicated-To-Offload drive. That will create a partition that will be known as the "E" drive once you hook it up to a computer...presuming you don't already have an E drive. If you already have an E, then the offloaded clips will appear on/as a drive with the next letter in the alphabet).

- empty/delete the clips from the cards, then shoot more footage.
At THIS point, your clips only exist on the D-T-O- drive, so handle it with care.

- offload Card A to the D-T-O drive (the "Dedicated-To-Offload drive. That will create a partition that will be known as the "F" drive once you hook it up to a computer...presuming you don't already have an F drive. If you already have an F, then the offloaded clips will appear on/as a drive with the next letter in the alphabet).

- offload Card B to the D-T-O drive. That will create a partition that will be known as the "G" drive once you hook it up to a computer...presuming you don't already have a G drive. If you already have a G, then the offloaded clips will appear on/as a drive with the next letter in the alphabet).

- continue that pattern until the shoot is over.

-connect the D-T-O drive to your computer. RIGHT-CLICK on Start/Explore and you shouild see all the "new" drives (with letters you may have never used before).

- Create one folder (or as many as you like) on the computer's hard drive, then drag/drop the clips FROM each of the "new" drives TO the hard drive on the computer. THIS is when/where/how you get to control naming.

You may want to move all clips from your "D" drive (which contains all of the footage from your 1st offload) to a folder named "First Offload-date" or a folder named "Card A-Offload 1".
You may want to move all clips from your "E" drive (which contains all of the footage from your 2nd offload) to a folder named "Second Offload-date" or "Card B-Offload 1".
You may want to move all clips from your F" drive (which contains all of the footage from your 3rd offload) to a folder named "Third Offfoad-date" or "Card A-Offload 2".
You may want to move all clips from your "G" drive (which contains all of the footage from your 4th offload) to a folder named "Fourth Offload-date" or "Card B-Offload 2".
Naming is entirely up to you at this point.

If your computer has more than a C drive, you can move the clip footage there. It need not be the C drive. Example, if you have more than 1 hard drive in your computer, or a RAID, you can create folders/subfolders there and drag the clips to those new folders. (My RAID is my "H" drive).

Once you've copied/dragged all the clips to your computer's hard drive(s), you now have the clip files in 2 places: the D-T-O drive, AND your computer's hard drive. At that point, you can do what you want with them.

At this point, unless you have disks in a RAID that provides automatic duplicates (RAID 5, I think), IT WOULD BE WISE TO BACK UP ALL YOUR FOOTAGE TO SOME MEDIA IN ADDTION TO YOUR COMPUTER HARD DRIVE. At this point, for backup purposes, you should be able to think of them as any other file on your computer. Use an external hard dirive (maybe firewire or USB2) that was not formatted through the camera. You can backup to any normal backup medium, e.g. external drives, CDs, DVDs, backup tapes...whatever.

Once the clips are backed up, the IMPORTANT thing to remember is that your D-T-O- drive now has the max number of partitions allowed (15) and they're all being used!!!. You cannot offload more to it.

In order to use it for more offloading I think you must format it THROUGH the camera. (If you do that, your "original" footage will be lost, but you'll have the clips in the folder(s) on the computer's hard drive AND the backup you just created via external drive, CD, DVD, tape, whatever.

Once the D-T-O drive has been reformatted, go back and shoot more fottage and repeat the steps that got you to here.

I hope this clarifies things. Sincere apologies for the length.
x

[Barry_Green]

Are you saying that I can store my p2 card data directly to an external hard drive without using a laptop?
Yes, to a firewire hard disk.

Or, you can use a USB2 On-The-Go drive.

Either way you can avoid using a laptop.

[x002657]

cafe637:

And Thank you, Barry!

Be aware that you pay a price for offloading.

While you don't have to lug around a laptop, you do need to lug around the D-T-O drive and have it handy to do the offloading.

Also, the camera can NOT shoot AND offload at the same time, so while offloading, you end up delaying the shoot. Offloading takes rougly 1 minute per Gb.

x

[FatDaddy]

Anybody doing this on a regular basis? Any recommendation for drives? Is the firewire port sensitive to plugging a drive in and out (ie. firewire port fries easy?)

Thinking through upgrading to an hvx...

Thanks.

[x002657]

I have 2 cards @ 4 GB each...that's all.

I've offloaded a few times, though I've never had a chance to reach the max of 15. The project I'm working on, a doc where shooting didn't begin until late Jan and will occur about once per week through May, hasn't really required it yet. Also, since I'm shooting it in DVCPRO50, I've been able to get 8 mins of footage from each card.

While that may not qualify as "regular" use, I think it qualifies as "repeated" use.

However, the process I outlined has worked for me.

I have PPro 2, which doesn't recognize mxf format, so I use Cineform's (CF's) "Aspect HD" to convert mxf to CF's "intermediate" format, which works well inside PPro 2.

At present, I'm using a generic 1394a/USB2 combo enclosure from CompUSA [$50 +/-] (SKU 306103) and a WD Caviar SE 320 GB/Go w/8 MB cache @ 7200 RPM. (I needed it in a hurry when my alternative media wasn;t cooperating). At a combined price of roughly $ 200, that's easier for me to handle right now than even buying one 8GB card.

The enclosure cover is printed "MOBILE DISK - EXTERNAL DATA STORAGE". It has its' own on/off power switch, 2 1394a jacks, and a single USB2 jack. This allows a little more flexibility. It also comes with an AC//DC power plug. The only thing I don't have that would be nice is a portable power source, so I'm stuck to using it from an outlet. while it's another "thing" to lug around, it's smaller, lighter, and quicker than lugging a laptop. It's not "ruggedized" in any way, so I'm careful with it.

As for firewire "frying", I don't take the risk. After recording to P2, I power down the camera, plug the exernal drive into the firewire port, power up the camera, reset the camera for offloading, then power up the external drive. When disconnecting, I always power-off the camera first, then the external drive. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've had no problems yet.

One thing I haven't experienced (hopefully Barry can help out here), is what happens: A) when a larger-than-8GB card is used, or B) when recording spans 2 P2 cards. I haven't tried that yet.

As I stated previously, it's been a while since I played in FAT32 land, but as I recall, FAT32 only allows a max of 8GB per partition. If using a 16 GB card, will that automatically split into 2 8GB partitions? How will that be handled by the camera during offload? (I know this contradicts one of my earlier posts, but it just occurred to me. Maybe that's contributed to why the larger P2 cards have been so slow in coming out). Since 16 GB cards aren't available yet, and I don't have the $$ for one anyway, I have no way to test this.

Also, the HVX allows recording to span P2 cards. I'm guessing here but think such a situation would result in a new partition once recording "jumped" to the 2nd card, and the clips would just have to be placed next to each other in editing.

I guess I have to go back and re-read Barry's book.

ADDENDUM RE: ENCLOSURE:
If you decide to get an external enclosure and drive, BE SURE YOU GET THE CABLE(S) YOU'LL NEED!!! The first day I bought mine, I learned too late that the drive came with no cables, and the enclosure only a USB2. I was still unable to offload because I FORGOT TO BUY A 4-pin to 6-pin firewire CABLE and neither the drive nor the enclosure included one.

I'd like to know of others' experience with this, too.

x

[x002657]

so I poked around for more info.

I learned that FAT32, as a file system, apparently allows for drives up to 2 TB...not the 8 GB I mistakenly mentioned earlier. Apologies for any confusion I caused about that. Mea culpa.

It seems that while Microsoft places limits on a FAT32 drive and/or partition size, that is something that occurs within Windows as an OS. It is not inherent to the FAT32 file system; only to Windows' implementation of "formatting" for that file system, i.e. it seems that Windows prevents formatting a drive larger than 32 GB (actually it appears to be 32Gb -1 byte), but it doesn't necessarily prevent reading or otherwise recognizing a drive or partition up to 2 TB. There are non-Microsoft/non-Windows ways of obtaining partition sizes larger than 32 GB, all the way up to 2 TB. That must be how Panasonic does/will achieve larger-than-8 GB partitions once the larger cards are available. That also explains at least some of the reasoning as to why a disk dedicated to offloading P2 cards must be formatted through the camera rather than through Windows...Windows would not allow the larger partitions, while the HVX probably already does.

(Apologies to Mac users...didn't mean to leave you out, but I know next to nothing about how Macs work).

Does that mean the bad news is that P2 cards can never grow larger than 2 TB? I don't think any of us have to worry about that. Besides, who'd be able to afford one?

[Pierre Petit]

Unless u have electricity on the set using a firewire drive is problematic as it needs to be battery powered. What i do is i use a 2.5 firewire drive with an extenal battery. A 4g p2 takes 8 minutes, thats 4 minutes regular download and 4 minutes verifying.

I also use the usb to go and it works well,i actually had corrupted clips but the problem got solved when i switched to using an external battery instead of the internal usb2go battery.Theyre is no way to verify the transfer with usb2go method.
You dont have any max size limit with the usb2go, just your limited by it using a 2.5 inch hd.
The external battery is a Tekkeon myPower All MP3400.

The firewire port is sentitive. The general recommendation is to always make sure the camera is switched off before plugging the firewire cable in. I had a firewireport burnt on an other camera and it was due to hotplugging the firewire cable.

Hope this helps.

[MikeDPLD]

"What i do is i use a 2.5 firewire drive with an extenal battery."

Pierre,
I'm considering the firewire / Tekkeon combination.
What Tekkeon cable /plug size fits the particular
firewire drive you use? Will all 2.5 firewire drives work with
the same-sized Tekkeon cable connection?
(I'm going to the Galapagos Islands July 1st. Uninhabited island.
Need ROCK-SOLID workflow that's easy, portable and doesn't
take forever. Hope to have three 16GB cards by then...
Thanks,
Mike

What exactly do I need to create maximum reliability,
security, (no lost-data worries) and verification?