HV 20 announced [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

BARYE

01-31-2007, 09:05 AM

Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/31/canons-ivis-hv20-hd-camcorder-gets-real/)reveals that Canon is coming out w/the HV20 for those that need a second backup camera/playback deck. It seems significantly improved over the HV10 coming w/mic,headphone, and HDMI ports -- as well as better low light performance...

"....and instead of an upright form factor like Canon's HV10 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/canon-EOS-40d-on-the-way/), they've gone long-and-lean this time which should help bring a bit more stability to your videos. As we hoped, low light shooting has indeed been improved (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/19/first-real-review-of-canons-high-def-cam/) from a 5 to 3 lux sensitivity at 1/30 second shutter speed or from 0.3 to 0.2 lux at 1/2 second shutter speed. Everything else is just like we heard on this HDV 1080i MiniDV recorder: 2.96 megapixel CMOS sensor, 10x optical zoom, 2.7-inch LCD, miniSD slot and new HDMI out, accessory shoe, and jacks for your headphones and mic. The HV20 is expected to hit Japan sometime in March, priced at about ¥140,000 ($1,154) to go head-to-head with Sony's HDR-HC7 (http://www.engadget.com/tag/hdr-hc7). No guarantees mind you, but we expect this to come west before summer."

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070131/canon1.htm

...Equipped with True Full HD CMOS Sensor and Canon’s advanced DIGIC DV II imaging processor, it is made for higher speed processing and color reproduction. In addition, HV20 is packed with many powerful features such as Super Range Optical Image Stabilizer and Instant AF System to enhance overall shooting experience.

HV20 – Feature Highlights

mic port
headphone jack
2.96 Mega Pixel Canon True Full HD CMOS Sensor (1920 X 1080 pixels)
Canon 10x HD Video Lens
DIGIC DV II imaging processor
Super Range Optical Image Stabilizer (OIS)
Instant AF System
HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) Output
25p cinema mode

henry cho

01-31-2007, 09:18 AM

yep. for ntsc folk, true 24p in 60i with 2:3 pulldown.

MovieSwede

01-31-2007, 09:28 AM

Why 24P in 60i, when 24F is actually better.

Barry_Green

01-31-2007, 09:33 AM

Zim

01-31-2007, 09:34 AM

maybe so more people can edit? 24F is not the norm for editing is it?

I'm wondering can 24P in 60i even be edited in something like iMovie HD?

Filmjunkie677

01-31-2007, 09:53 AM

Wow, after reading Chris Hurd's writeup, this is an impressive little cam... For close to a thousand bucks.... Kudos, Canon!!

Sean Michael

01-31-2007, 10:07 AM

Wow, I'm buying one of these. (My Sony HC3 will soon be up for sale.)

The HV20 makes me also favor Canon for my next "prosumer" camera purchase. Canon's choice of 24p (instead of 24f) for the HV20 is curious. I wonder if we'll soon see an "XHA2" with 24p and HDMI out?

Canon is kicking butt in the HDV space!

Kholi

01-31-2007, 10:34 AM

I am soooooo freaking in. I'm getting one. Now I can have my CAnon flavor AND my HVX flavor!

w00t!!!! It won't be quite like having an A1 and an HVX, but it will be like having two 24p cameras to use. And if it STILL looks as freaking clear as the HV10 does... omggggggg.

There went another 1200 from my bank account.

Zim

01-31-2007, 10:55 AM

I wonder if Panasonic is going to do anything this year?

Kholi

01-31-2007, 10:58 AM

Time will tell. But dang, Canon is straight wrangling. Like Barry said, they're out for blood. LOL. Every time I turn around, something Canon is popping up.

Speaking of popping up: I haven't seen a release date for it yet. Anyone know?

Looks like I need to invest an Blackmagic's HDMI card now.

t-h-e-w-h-o

01-31-2007, 11:00 AM

Wow. Canon is out for blood. $1,099 for 24p... that opens up the market to so many more people!

How odd that it claims to record 24P in 60i; that's not how 24F does it. I wonder if they're choosing to avoid the proprietary 24F in favor of universal playback capability, seeing as this is a strictly consumer product and therefore the consumer wouldn't be likely to understand why their tapes won't play back in their friend's Sony? Smart move by Canon, I think... the last thing the consumer needs is more confusion.

that would be my guess Barry. This just means more kids shooting 24P hd on thier myspace film/youtube accounts. 3 cheers for progress?? or 3 fears for respectability? I dunno. Whatever. lol. Will this HV20 playback 24F? That would be my only use in getting it.

Wendt

01-31-2007, 11:01 AM

Can the HV20 still act like a deck for the A1 like the HV10 (work with 24f/ 30f)?
T-h-e-w-h-o you beat me to it.

Kholi

01-31-2007, 11:04 AM

that would be my guess Barry. This just means more kids shooting 24P hd on thier myspace film/youtube accounts. 3 cheers for progress?? or 3 fears for respectability? I dunno. Whatever. lol. Will this HV20 playback 24F? That would be my only use in getting it.

Yeah, how rude of Canon... driving those who claim to be the "real deal" to step up their game. When the whole world has a toy that can do 24p, just means you need to push harder to make great product.

I'm all for it.

Digigenic

01-31-2007, 11:13 AM

Speaking of popping up: I haven't seen a release date for it yet. Anyone know?.
Beginning of March.
Can the HV20 still act like a deck for the A1 like the HV10 (work with 24f/ 30f)?
Yes it can still serve as a deck for the other formats.
"Playback for 24F & 30F Frame Mode and four-channel audio"
More here (http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php)

Kholi

01-31-2007, 11:15 AM

Beginning of March.

Great. Perfect timing.

Barry_Green

01-31-2007, 11:18 AM

According to Chris Hurd's "overview" article, it does have the capability to play back 24F. But it would have been nice if it had the option to record 24F; I'd say that 24F is the "better" quality recording method rather than 2:3 pulldown, certainly better for editing. But then again, we're talking about a $1000 high-def camera here(!) and if they could only do one or the other, I think they made the more correct choice for the consumer base by making it 2:3/60i so that it'll be cross-compatible.

BARYE

01-31-2007, 11:19 AM

Great. Perfect timing.

I think that March is for Japan -- it could be later for other places...

BTW -- Chris Hurd's write up is here:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php

Kholi

01-31-2007, 11:21 AM

I think that March is for Japan -- it could be later for other places...

BTW -- Chris Hurd's write up is here:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php

Aw darn. But, either way, time to put aside a little extra moneys. No iPhone for me.

t-h-e-w-h-o

01-31-2007, 11:30 AM

Yeah, how rude of Canon... driving those who claim to be the "real deal" to step up their game. When the whole world has a toy that can do 24p, just means you need to push harder to make great product.

I'm all for it.

very true. :)

And yeah, i think 24F is superior editing workflow to 24P, but like Barry is saying, its still 1 grand 24P... not bad... lol ill be getting one as soon as i can buy it, anyone know when b&h gets em?

Kholi

01-31-2007, 11:34 AM

very true. :)

And yeah, i think 24F is superior editing workflow to 24P, but like Barry is saying, its still 1 grand 24P... not bad... lol ill be getting one as soon as i can buy it, anyone know when b&h gets em?

That's my point. I have an HVX, but wanted an A1 as well. I was going to get an HV10 but everytime I got to Best Buy, something just said "hold off". I guess this is why.

I mean, 1k for 24p, HDMI-out, and Canon quality sharpness? Definitely. I'll probably skip the out-of-state order and just go to Best Buy or Circuit City to pick one up when it hits shelves.

The HDMI is of special interest, because you could effectively use this sharp camera tethered for Greenscreen shooting, capturing straight to PhotoJPEG. And it's not to say that you can't do a great job with the HVX, or tether, or yadda yadda. It is.
Just, wow. Go Canon.

t-h-e-w-h-o

01-31-2007, 11:39 AM

That's my point. I have an HVX, but wanted an A1 as well. I was going to get an HV10 but everytime I got to Best Buy, something just said "hold off". I guess this is why.

I mean, 1k for 24p, HDMI-out, and Canon quality sharpness? Definitely. I'll probably skip the out-of-state order and just go to Best Buy or Circuit City to pick one up when it hits shelves.

The HDMI is of special interest, because you could effectively use this sharp camera tethered for Greenscreen shooting, capturing straight to PhotoJPEG. And it's not to say that you can't do a great job with the HVX, or tether, or yadda yadda. It is.
Just, wow. Go Canon.

dude, go B&H for your purchase, i gurantee it will be $300 cheaper than worst buy or circuit shi*ty... Yeah, HDMI out is a deff bonus. I love panny, but im happy to see canon owning this scene with affordable quality gear. I love my A1, i would love my HVX, but i dont own one. Point is this is a great deal. Now i gotta decide Hv10 or carbon fiber hood for my GTi MkV. lol money money money.

BARYE

01-31-2007, 12:10 PM

Aw darn. But, either way, time to put aside a little extra moneys. No iPhone for me.
Camcorderinfo is saying:

".... Canon has stated that details ... will be made available closer to the ship date of mid-April."

Their HV20 preview (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm)is the most comprehensive that I've seen.

Kholi

01-31-2007, 12:11 PM

Camcorderinfo is saying:

".... Canon has stated that details ... will be made available closer to the ship date of mid-April."

Their HV20 preview (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm)is the most comprehensive that I've seen.

CAnon has the HV20 up on their page and I think part of it says April. So April it is!

Zim

01-31-2007, 12:18 PM

I thought I read,,,April..I hope sooner

Filmjunkie677

01-31-2007, 12:23 PM

Who would have thought in 2007 you could walk into a best buy or circuity city and buy a 24P Camcorder. Not me... lol.

t-h-e-w-h-o

01-31-2007, 12:32 PM

CAnon has the HV20 up on their page and I think part of it says April. So April it is!

ot Found

The requested URL /content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm)is was not found on this server.
Apache/2.0.46 (Red Hat) Server at images.camcorderinfo.com Port 80

BARYE

01-31-2007, 12:39 PM

not Found

The requested URL /content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm)is was not found on this server...

works for me -- but just go to camcorderinfo's (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/)main page -- its the lead article

Kholi

01-31-2007, 12:49 PM

http://usa.canon.com/app/html/See_The_Difference/hd_cmos.shtml

There's the best HV10 footage I've seen. Hope the HV20 gets close to that in 24p goodness.

xray

01-31-2007, 12:59 PM

Hopla. 25p (25F out? ) HDMI, low weight and good OIS to handle on a Steadycam Merlin. That combined with the A1 gives enormous shooting/editing flexibility.

Norbert

01-31-2007, 04:31 PM

Barry_Green

01-31-2007, 04:55 PM

Y'know, that's something that's stuck in the back of my head since hearing the announcement. Because Canon *did* join the AVC-HD coalition. And 1080/24P is an officially-supported AVC-HD recording mode.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Canon makes an AVC-HD version of this camera in the near future.

Noel Evans

01-31-2007, 05:07 PM

Dont want to put your precious camera on a car mount, dangerous shot - this certainly creates another option.

I cant imagine using this on a professional shoot based on form factor, we are already pushing the boundaries on that as it is.

Interesting to see how this cuts with the A1. Could make the possibility of a cheap two cam set up for narrative.

Certainly would be a great little cam for BTS.

Y'know, that's something that's stuck in the back of my head since hearing the announcement. Because Canon *did* join the AVC-HD coalition. And 1080/24P is an officially-supported AVC-HD recording mode.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Canon makes an AVC-HD version of this camera in the near future.

Me neither due to the fact that AVC-HD is being promoted everywhere here on the consumer level. Go to the main train stations around Tokyo and subway and youll see a poster of someone using some brand of small form factor consumer cam with AVC-HD with an endless supply of SD cards. SD card prices are falling and will continue to do so.

Mirezzi

01-31-2007, 08:00 PM

Forgive my stupidity, but can somebody give a quick primer on AVC-HD and what the implications are for future HD camcorders?

agwah

01-31-2007, 08:01 PM

would this adapter
http://www.mobl.com/expansion/products/expresscard_expansion/index.html

and this card
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/software/

make it possible to record to a mac book pro from the hdmi

is it possible to compress it to a cineform or jpg2000 codec on capture to make the data rate low enough to have it come out through the firewire port onto a hard drive

or does it need another sata port for a raid but there arent't two express card slots, is it then possible to divide the card slot into two and provide both card expansion for the blackmagic and then another cable to a raid
http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-2sm2-e/

it just seems so sweetly portable and inexpensive

Zak Forsman

01-31-2007, 08:32 PM

Wow. Canon is out for blood. $1,099 for 24p... that opens up the market to so many more people!

How odd that it claims to record 24P in 60i; that's not how 24F does it. I wonder if they're choosing to avoid the proprietary 24F in favor of universal playback capability, seeing as this is a strictly consumer product and therefore the consumer wouldn't be likely to understand why their tapes won't play back in their friend's Sony? Smart move by Canon, I think... the last thing the consumer needs is more confusion.
i'm reading that 24F is limited to three chip acquisition because it requires pixel shift technology.

Barry_Green

01-31-2007, 10:10 PM

For origination, maybe. But the recording format is just 24 progressive frames (without pulldown), so that should have nothing to do with the CCDs etc.

Zak Forsman

01-31-2007, 10:50 PM

For origination, maybe. But the recording format is just 24 progressive frames (without pulldown), so that should have nothing to do with the CCDs etc.
this is what Chris Hurd says: "But what about Canon's Frame mode, found on their XL and XH series of High Definition camcorders... why not just use that technology in the HV20? The answer lies in the fact that Frame mode relies heavily on a process called Pixel Shift, which is used only in three-chip camcorders such as the Canon XL H1 (the process involves offsetting the green image sensor one-half pixel in the horizontal axis relative to the blue and red image sensors). Since the HV20 is only a single-chip camcorder, it can't have Pixel Shift. Without Pixel Shift, there's no Frame mode. This isn't an issue, though, because the CMOS sensor in the HV20 is already progressive to begin with... it doesn't need Frame mode, which transforms an interlaced video signal into a progressive one. "

Barry_Green

01-31-2007, 11:01 PM

Right, and that all makes sense. But that all takes place prior to it getting recorded.

The difference I'm talking about is: okay, you have 24 progressive frames, how are you going to record it? In the XHA1/XHG1/XLH1, they record it as 24 progressive frames. In the HV20, they record it as 60 fields. Quality-wise, and for edit-friendliness, the 24-frame-only recording of the other cameras would be better. But, y'know what? It's probably a relatively moot point. If you want better quality, you'll pony up for the better camera -- this is a $1099 product after all! So, never mind... :)

Mirezzi

01-31-2007, 11:25 PM

If you want better quality, you'll pony up for the better camera -- this is a $1099 product after all! So, never mind... :)

Indeed, and if your ultimate goal is mating B-roll footage to your *better* camera, then this HV20 is a great companion to the XH series cameras. Hell, even the HV10 is great for that.

Elton

01-31-2007, 11:54 PM

The HDMI is of special interest, because you could effectively use this sharp camera tethered for Greenscreen shooting, capturing straight to PhotoJPEG. And it's not to say that you can't do a great job with the HVX, or tether, or yadda yadda. It is.
Just, wow. Go Canon.

What's pretty crazy about the HV20 is it has a slightly larger than 1/3" chip and it is full raster, with no pixel shifting of any kind.

I would imagine that the HDMI out, if the live signal does indeed bypass HDV compression entirely, would be a true 1920 x 1080 image in full progressive glory.

I think I'll take that for a grand. :)

Barry_Green

02-01-2007, 12:22 AM

and it is full raster, with no pixel shifting of any kind.
Well, of course it can't have pixel shifting; it's a single chip. You need 3 chips to be able to take advantage of the spatial offset between chips.

But single-system bayer patterns have never been described as a way to increase quality -- everybody has always wanted the 3-chip camera over the 1-chip for very good reasons!

I would imagine that the HDMI out, if the live signal does indeed bypass HDV compression entirely, would be a true 1920 x 1080 image in full progressive glory.
Wha? No no no no no. It's a single-sensor bayer de-mosaic system. It won't be anywhere near 1920x1080 by the time the de-mosaic'ing is done.

I mean, yes it's a 1920 x 1080 chip, but that's only in monochrome! You've got to do a very pixel-shift-like process to turn that into a color image. But unlike pixel shift, which gains resolution, the de-mosaic process loses res. Heck, just laying the bayer filter over the sensor basically causes you to lose res, because you start with a green resolution that's 1/2 the res of the chip (since two of every four pixels have a green filter over them) and red and blue resolution that's 1/4 the res of the chip. So you've got a 960x1080 green source, and a 960x540 red source, and a 960 x 540 blue source. Nowhere near true 1920x1080 color res (which would be possible if you had three 1920x1080 chips; with the bayer pattern on a single chip you get 1/2-1/4-1/4). And then you have to basically pixel-shift that all around to try to guess what the actual color should be, using nearest-neighbor or bicubic or spline algorithms, all to magically reconstruct what the proper color value should be for each "macro-pixel". It's worse than pixel shift, because at least with a 3-CCD pixel shift system you have color information for each pixel on each CCD, all simultaneously; with a bayer pattern only one color can be sensed for each pixel. Demosaicing algorithms are pretty good, so it's not as dire as it sounds, but I'd guess that it'll probably end up losing 20-30% through the bayer filter and resultant demosaic processing. Still not bad, competitive with the other systems, but come on, to imply that it'd be anywhere near a full 1920x1080 is just not going to be accurate; neither would it be accurate to imply that a de-mosaic'd bayer sensor is somehow a "pure" type of resolution. We can be excited for this Canon for what it is ($1099 and 24P) but let's not go trying to make it into something it isn't. :thumbsup:

Check out the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing

Elton

02-01-2007, 12:32 AM

Well, I'm guessing it will be near full raster resolution because the chip itself is oversampled. It claims to be actually around 3 MP, so maybe after the de-bayering process it really is 1920x1080.

One thing I know is the HV10's 1080i stuff is very sharp. That would lead me to believe that there is some oversampling involved in order to yield video that truly looks like sharp 1080i.

Barry_Green

02-01-2007, 12:42 AM

Well, if it's seriously oversampled then that does counteract some of the bayer pattern inefficiencies, provided that the lens can resolve that higher resolution.

Kholi

02-01-2007, 12:50 AM

HV10 is as sharp as a Loraina Bobbit weapon. But, now that I've had a chance to calm down from the initial hype... I'm wondering what Pana's gonna bring AND, if there's an AVC-HD HV20 around the corner or something.

We've JUST made it out of January this past hour and look what new has dropped?

But, my, that HV20 sounds jummy.

Barry_Green

02-01-2007, 12:58 AM

Kholi

02-01-2007, 01:03 AM

I had the same thoughts. Entry cost for some awesome looking film-like cadence at about 1k... some hidden talent's going to go "Hey now I can compete!" and leap on this for a birthday present or even saving pennies. Sheesh.

I'm glad that Canon whipped the 24p handy-cam out, though. I honestly hope this drives everyone else to step it up with their content instead of relying on the toys. I know, I love toys. I'm going crazy over the HV20, but I still spend my time writing even while stocking up on hammers and nails.

Said that to T-h-e-w-h-o, though... just means you need to step up your game.

Zak Forsman

02-01-2007, 01:08 AM

for reference, here's a still from some footage I shot on my HV10 a few weeks ago. shutter was set to 1/30 so there's a slight bit of smearing.
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3574/untitled1yd6.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled1yd6.jpg)

Zim

02-01-2007, 03:13 AM

The HV20 does sound danged promising. I am excited about it because I think there's thousands and thousands of kids out there who always wished they could afford a $3500 DVX, and then they saw the $3500 XHA1, and they thought "someday"... and I think for a lot of 'em, the HV20 might just turn that all into "today." Hats off to Canon for truly democratizing 24p and slashing the cost of entry into shooting 24p. $1099 for 1080/24p. I don't care if it was sharp as an Adam Sandler student film, that's awesome. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p camera so far, standard-def or high-def, and now Canon's just cut the cost of entry to 1/3 for getting 24p.

I think Canon has got some momentum. And yes, it is only the end of January; who knows what else is coming... they're popping up fairly fast and furious already!

just think how the HV20 will look on YouTube, iTunes podcast, cell phones, MySpace, your HDTV and who know,even the big screen. Make a low budget film and self promote it. Times are changing so fast. A top of the line $1,000 will probably be just as good as a $3600 camera on YouTube.

I'm not a kid anymore but I have them in college and this HV20 sounds pretty good. I guess we will see what else comes out in the next few months.

MrSleep

02-01-2007, 06:02 AM

We're all use to 3CCD being the "best" but personally I'm beginning to prefer the single sensor approach especially if they squeeze a bigger sensor in there (a la RED ONE). Imagine working with a 1/2" or even 2/3" sensor and its larger pixels and shallower DOF. The latitude would be better and the DOF characteristics of 2/3" approaches 16mm film. Of course the lens would have to be bigger but the sensor unit would be smaller because there is only one sensor and no prism. Man, just think about it...a 2/3" camera with a reduced zoom ratio fixed lens, say 30mm to 300mm just might be small enough and affordable enough because of the single sensor. Canon could totally pull that off since they make the CMOS sensors and optics. And they're the only ones listening so if you want something like that you should make it known. One things seems for sure, CMOS is the future.

fingers crossed!

the logical step would be to upgrade their sensor size optimized for less noise and wider dynamic range and since many pro cameras have already proven a single sensor design works, lets hope they get over their 3ccd "pro" and combine those little sensors into a big one.

on a (minimum) 2/3 sensor with 1080p resolution that could be comparable in "latitude" to Red's 12MP mysterium sensor. IMHO the Red would of been much neater with less pixels that would of paved the way for more latitude and less burdened workflow by todays standards.

i will take the HV20 for now and wait to see what else is in store tommorow. things are looking very exciting.

MovieSwede

02-01-2007, 07:41 AM

If it indeed can produce stunning 25P images, I got this crazy idea of mounting it on my DVX and use the HV20 for Picture and DVX for sound. :)

AuditoryVisuals

02-01-2007, 07:53 AM

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=844846#post844846

I posted this first! Whaaa!:cry:

BARYE

02-01-2007, 07:54 AM

If it indeed can produce stunning 25P images, I got this crazy idea of mounting it on my DVX and use the HV20 for Picture and DVX for sound. :)
unlike the HV10, the HV20 has a mic port -- (and you obviously could attach an XLR adapter as well if you need to)

Jack_Felis

02-01-2007, 08:11 AM

You know, to me, even if it turns out that the 24p mode isn't as good as the 24f modes, the HV20 would still make a killer behind the scenes camera in 1080i. So unless something better comes out to beat it, I plan on getting one of these after I get all of my RED stuff figured out.

AuditoryVisuals

02-01-2007, 08:22 AM

I read once at DVinfo that somebody asked Canon why they didn't put 24p into their HV10, they said the majority of their users don't use 24p.

Noel Evans

02-01-2007, 08:28 AM

Makes a great deck plus has some other actual use, ill be putting my order in. But now I am poised. For what?

The next prosumer from Canon that comes out with LARGER than 1/3 inch (same as the HV20) but with 3 cmos chips recording in AVC HD.

philnerd

02-01-2007, 09:31 AM

This camera definitely has the wow factor, but it still lacks what the A1 lacks - cheap, tapeless workflow. I can't help to think that Canon has to jump the AVCHD-recording-to-SD-card-wagon pretty soon and that they are trying to sell as many new HDV cameras as possible before that happens.

Definitely true. Although to be honest, I'd really like to see some higher bitrate AVCHD. I'm just not impressed with anything I've seen yet. So far the HDV coming from Canon still looks better to me than the AVCHD samples I've seen. The established editing workflows don't hurt either, though that's obviously going to be addressed. Actually now that I think of it, you could buy a firestore for this and still be in the same price range as the competing AVCHD cams...

Anyway, if Panasonic doesn't come up with anything better before April, I'm buying one. :D The only real downside to this camera is that it doesn't have a focus ring.
The focus ring is the only, and I mean only, thing they seem to have left out. Other than that, this is the HDV Optura I always hoped they'd come out with - though even in my most optimistic thinking I didn't REALLY believe 24P would be on the table..

Elton

02-01-2007, 12:12 PM

The HV20 does sound danged promising. I am excited about it because I think there's thousands and thousands of kids out there who always wished they could afford a $3500 DVX, and then they saw the $3500 XHA1, and they thought "someday"... and I think for a lot of 'em, the HV20 might just turn that all into "today." Hats off to Canon for truly democratizing 24p and slashing the cost of entry into shooting 24p. $1099 for 1080/24p. I don't care if it was sharp as an Adam Sandler student film, that's awesome. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p camera so far, standard-def or high-def, and now Canon's just cut the cost of entry to 1/3 for getting 24p.

I think Canon has got some momentum. And yes, it is only the end of January; who knows what else is coming... they're popping up fairly fast and furious already!

Great perspective, Barry. Very well said. :) This is the product that is going to push the envelope of what's possible at very low price points. I sincerely hope Sony and Panasonic come up with some great alternatives because this is the stuff that is going to make HD much more relevant from a consumer camcorder perspective, and at the same time, democratizing 24p HD for the masses. It'll also create more demand for BluRay and HD DVD authoring with iDVD simplicity.

This will truly be the year of HD migration.

AuditoryVisuals

02-01-2007, 01:39 PM

The next prosumer from Canon that comes out with LARGER than 1/3 inch (same as the HV20) but with 3 cmos chips recording in AVC HD.

AVCHD was designed as a consumer format. And did you look at the footage? It looks worse than HDV in my opinion. And currently it's only Sony and Panasonic with AVCHD.

AVC-Intra would be a much more viable format for a prosumer camera. But then again, the bit rates are too high. I'm good with HDV for now. It looks a lot better than the 2Mb/s on TV.

Norbert

02-01-2007, 04:09 PM

Well, yes... but if Canon keeps going for blood even when they are making AVCHD cameras, I think (hope) they will make them record at a higher bitrate (maybe the same as their HDV cameras), making the image look better than HDV.

Noel Evans

02-01-2007, 05:04 PM

AVC-Intra would be a much more viable format for a prosumer camera. But then again, the bit rates are too high. I'm good with HDV for now. It looks a lot better than the 2Mb/s on TV.

Yes, you are right. My post wasnt well thought out, some excitment over the future.

Emanuel

02-01-2007, 05:11 PM

I am excited about it because I think there's thousands and thousands of kids out there...

I'm not a kid anymore but I have them in college...

You flatter my ego Barry...and I'm a 37 years old. Zim, ain't you a kid anymore? :laugh:

Barry_Green

02-01-2007, 06:12 PM

AVCHD was designed as a consumer format.
No, it wasn't. HDV was "designed" as a consumer format. AVC-HD was designed to replace HDV, to be the new low-bandwidth acquisition format. It's superior to HDV in nearly every way.

So far only cheap low-cost camcorders have been put out that use it, but that will change.

And currently it's only Sony and Panasonic with AVCHD.
No, it isn't. It's Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp, Canon... there are more manufacturers supporting AVC-HD than there ever were with HDV. And, most importantly, both of the behemoths (Sony and Panasonic) are on the same side this time with AVC-HD.
http://www.avchd-info.org/index.html

AVC-Intra would be a much more viable format for a prosumer camera.
? AVC-Intra will likely never appear in a prosumer camcorder, because the lowest bitrate is 50 megabits. AVC-HD was designed for lower bitrates. AVC-HD is also scalable, you can scale it down to 6 megabits or up to 24, or rates in between. At 8 megabits it about matches 25 megabits of HDV; at 24 megabits it should be substantially better.

But that all also depends on having a worthy camera head. I think an XHA1 with AVC-HD would be a dynamite combination, and (for me at least) vastly preferable over HDV.

Emanuel

02-01-2007, 06:59 PM

We can be excited for this Canon for what it is ($1099 and 24P) but let's not go trying to make it into something it isn't. :thumbsup:

HV10 is as sharp as a Loraina Bobbit weapon.LOL

Here are these interesting resolution results (Canon HV10 related):

784.5 Lines Horizontal
704.8 Lines Vertical

vs.

[A1 1080/60i]
810.0 Lines Horizontal
660.4 Lines Vertical

[A1 24F mode]
810.0 Lines Horizontal
590.4 Lines Vertical

LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=579582#post579582)

As Barlow already said: «The HV10 is a full raster 1920x1080 sensor, with a chip that's actually slightly larger than 1/3. It should actually achieve higher res if the lens is good enough.»

FatDaddy

02-01-2007, 09:25 PM

I'm waiting for Pany to kick it in gear. Come on Pany, replace the dvx with AVC-HD and 16x9...

dippytwitty

02-01-2007, 11:41 PM

LOL

Here are these interesting resolution results (Canon HV10 related):

784.5 Lines Horizontal
704.8 Lines Vertical

As Barlow already said: «The HV10 is a full raster 1920x1080 sensor, with a chip that's actually slightly larger than 1/3. It should actually achieve higher res if the lens is good enough.»

What Barry said is 100% true, you will not get "full glorious" (paraphrasing, sorry) 1080 output from a single-chip *BUT* it's important to see that *very good* results can be obtained from the bayer demosaic - coming from background in still digital photography, I'm not surprised that the HV10 gets around 70% 'apparent' resolution.

Sadly, the fact that so many 3-chip cams are cost-cutting by using lower-res chips and just pixel-shifting, means they won't be much better than a well designed single-chip. If you can spend the $80k+ on a full-frame 3-chip Varicam or CineAlta you can see what "glorious" really is, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next year or two changes the whole landscape totally- make a 3-sensor design from progressive chips like the HV20, and suddenly we don't need $80k anymore! Well, ok there's still the DOF issue with small sensors... ;o)

In short though, the single-chip bayer sensor is a compromise, but a very effective compromise, and is a mature bit of technology. Check out results from some of the better DSLR cams and you will find similar resolution results.

It's also good to keep in mind, that most resolution charts are black-and-white, where bayer sensors do their best in resolution- parts of an image predominantly red or blue will be softer. A 3-sensor design should improve in those parts, but we can also argue that 4-2-0 encoding takes away a good deal of that improvement!

I'll hold off on the HV20, but only because I too suspect more prosumer models with manual focus, AVCHD etc are on the horizon. Pushing the envelope is a good, good thing!

Dip

RobS

02-01-2007, 11:50 PM

Wasn't it 2 years ago that a U.S. Panasonic marketing person hinted that eventually 24 fps would be brought to their consumer line? Ah, here it is:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/More-Details-Revealed-Regarding-Panasonic-PV-GS400.htm

One might wonder how badly this announcement will hurt presales of Panasonic's latest AVCHD products. Methinks the HV20 will dominate that product category for at least 18 months (my guess at a full product development cycle).

Question: How many of you who are shooting with the HVX200 would now consider a HV20 for your B camera?

Emanuel

02-02-2007, 01:58 AM

Sadly, the fact that so many 3-chip cams are cost-cutting by using lower-res chips and just pixel-shifting, means they won't be much better than a well designed single-chip.That's the point.

If you can spend the $80k+ on a full-frame 3-chip Varicam or CineAlta you can see what "glorious" really is, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next year or two changes the whole landscape totally- make a 3-sensor design from progressive chips like the HV20, and suddenly we don't need $80k anymore! Well, ok there's still the DOF issue with small sensors... ;o)If you have definition (not exactly the same than resolution considering that and other explanations previously given by Barry on the color subject and around that), you can risk going with a 35mm adapter, for example. But you need definition in order to dream.

In short though, the single-chip bayer sensor is a compromise, but a very effective compromise, and is a mature bit of technology. Check out results from some of the better DSLR cams and you will find similar resolution results.I know and agree.

It's also good to keep in mind, that most resolution charts are black-and-white, where bayer sensors do their best in resolution- parts of an image predominantly red or blue will be softer. A 3-sensor design should improve in those parts, but we can also argue that 4-2-0 encoding takes away a good deal of that improvement!The same here. And here's that point above-mentioned.

AuditoryVisuals

02-02-2007, 07:55 AM

? AVC-Intra will likely never appear in a prosumer camcorder, because the lowest bitrate is 50 megabits.

:huh: But the HVX200 uses DVCPRO HD at 100mb/s! You can't say that prosumer cameras won't use 50mb/s!

Barry_Green

02-02-2007, 09:15 AM

HVX200 isn't a prosumer camera, for one thing. For a second thing, AVC-Intra is only being developed and marketed by the broadcast division; AVC-HD is going to be supported by both broadcast and consumer. The AVC-Intra option board costs almost as much as an HVX does. You're not going to see a $2000 camcorder with a $3,000 or $4,000 option board in it.

The point of AVC-HD, and what it brings to us that's new and that's important, is cheap disposable giveaway media. Over-the-counter SD cards that you can shoot an hour to and then hand off to a client, if that's what you want.

AVC-Intra would double the recording time on a P2 card, sure. And for broadcast use that's fine. But AVC-HD can increase recording times by, say, 13x as long at HDV-caliber quality. For those uses where that's appropriate, it opens up new avenues. AVC-Intra doesn't really do that. Doubling is nice, but it still isn't going to go on a standard SD card at 50 megabits.

xray

02-02-2007, 10:32 AM

Big German broadcasters that invests in P2, did not bought any HVX200, they consider the 1/3" palmstyle camcorder as 'prosumer'. What you read in that word. It is prosumer, but used by professionals like the Sony Z1 is used bij BBC, VPRO etc.

HDV is getting mature right now, as is the old DVCPRO 8 bit codec, new developments will follow. AVC-HD is developing, Sony said loud that AVC-Intra is not ready now, they want acceptance for AVC-HD first.

Barry_Green

02-02-2007, 10:36 AM

Kholi

02-02-2007, 10:50 AM

Someone mentioned AVC footage looking worse than HDV? I'm gonna guess that's depending on what camera it's coming from yeah?

Barry_Green

02-02-2007, 10:56 AM

Definitely. The only AVC cameras out right now are cheapy little consumer cams. Put a comparable camera head on it, something like the XLH1 or XHA1, and you should see noticably/significantly better images from the AVC-HD.

But that camera head doesn't exist yet.

Kholi

02-02-2007, 11:35 AM

Then here's to hoping that Pana drops an AVC camera w/24p on the same level as the HV10 (and 20 assuming that it's going to produce the same stellar quality) before the HV20 release.

Sheesh.

FatDaddy

02-02-2007, 11:46 AM

This is why I'm holding onto my dvx until the next wave comes - hvx or dvx.

Barry_Green

02-02-2007, 03:02 PM

Then here's to hoping that Pana drops an AVC camera w/24p on the same level as the HV10 (and 20 assuming that it's going to produce the same stellar quality) before the HV20 release.
I've been lobbying for an AVC-HD DVX/24p camera, but Jan's said it's not gonna happen soon.

Frankly I think Canon has caught Panasonic and Sony napping. I doubt we're gonna see a $1000 24p camcorder from anyone else any time in the near future. It's just pulled the rug out from everyone else for an entry-level camera. Seriously, the DVX has been the cheapest 24p camcorder; Canon and Sony had finally just caught up to offering something at that price point or near it, and then Canon goes and offers something at 1/3 the price. I'd love to see the other companies mix it up and spice it up, but I bet we're quite a ways away from that.

DammitJanet

02-02-2007, 05:22 PM

Holy crap. This is great that so many will be able to jump in on 24p at such a price.

However, if Canon do indeed introduce an "XH A2" with 24p and HDMI, I'm going to be pissed big time. I mean, it's bad enough we have to capture from the A1 while everyone else (using HDV) can capture from any camera or deck. I mean, I could be way off base here. Has anyone introduced another way out of this other than buying ANOTHER camcorder? (Brilliant marketing move by the way, Canon.)

Elton

02-02-2007, 06:09 PM

Jeez, what's the problem here? Each product is a step up from the other. If and when an XH A2 hit the market (I can't imagine it for at least a year) would you look at the A1 and say it's not good enough?

IMHO, the A1 passes a quality threshold where the extra refinements that may come (CMOS, HDMI, even AVCHD) are just diminishing returns, at best.

I'm all for progress, but a little perspective is in order. The A1 is a breakthrough product and it's gonna have a healthy life of its own.

DammitJanet

02-02-2007, 06:16 PM

I understand that, and believe me, I'm blown away by the A1. Don't get me wrong. I'm very thankful to Canon for providing us with such a powerful tool, but I just can't help feeling a little like the odd man out when it comes to 24f. I guess I'm just biased because I have this nagging feeling that my A1's heads are going to explode every time I capture footage from the thing.

I just wish someone would give us a method of capturing that isn't using the A1 itself or another camcorder (especially a cam costing over $1,000). I understand that a deck would be expensive, but come on!

Elton

02-02-2007, 06:19 PM

You may think the Sony HDV decks are great, but guess what? They're just glorified Z1 camcorder transports. Personally, unless you have to impress clients with something that looks like a "real deck" I'd rather have a killer little camera as a bonus. And another thing: THERE'S ALWAYS FIRESTORE if you want to avoid tape capture!

On 24F: It's true progressive encoding and doesn't waste bandwidth on redundant fields. Do you think consumers would understand this concept at all? Do you think they would care about pure progressive? It's too confusing and it makes sense that Canon would just opt to make it work just like the V1's does. Plus, it makes sense for people that are only concerned about how it looks on their HDTV (which should actually be just about everyone!) because I'm sure they won't want to have to deal with the complexity of having to add pulldown in post in order for their stuff to be 1080i standards compatible. At least with the HV20's approach, you can easily edit 24p and regular 1080i on the same timeline.

It remains to be seen whether the 24p on the HV20 will be an improvement, but I'm doubting it. Unless they have a noticeably improved encoder (unlikely) it may be slightly worse in terms of artifact resistance than the A1.

All of this of course doesn't bother me because I'm excited as hell to have a mini 1080 24p camera in the near future!

Elton

02-02-2007, 06:34 PM

I guess I'm just biased because I have this nagging feeling that my A1's heads are going to explode every time I capture footage from the thing.

Maybe Barry could answer this, but I really wonder how many DVX owners actually went out and bought professional DV decks to augment their personal camera? I think a good number of them bought cheapo DV camcorders to do the dirty work, or just dealt with the fact that they had to capture from the camcorder, and maybe later on realized it wasn't such a big deal, unless they were shooting a ton of material every day.

DammitJanet

02-02-2007, 07:43 PM

Well put. I was one of those guys that used a smaller cheaper (to the tune of $250) cam to capture from my DVX, and I really wish I could do the same thing with the A1. I guess I'm just gonna have to deal with it for now, but maybe you're right and it's not that damaging to the cam. Sorry to ruffle feathers, but I guess I get a little anal about equipment wear and tear. Thanks for the input. :)

xray

02-02-2007, 08:12 PM

A Big German broadcaster may not have bought it, but the biggest Indian broadcaster, NDTV, bought nothing but HVXs. The Weather Channel bought HVXs. Raycom Media bought 82 HVXs. It's a professional tool used by professionals.

The BBC did buy some Z1s, but they specifically told their shooters *not* to use them for HDV, they were only to be used for standard-def 16:9. When the BBC wanted a handheld HD camera to use for the Olympics, they used the HVX.

And Sony won't have anything to do with AVC-Intra, that's a Panasonic-only format.

So? You want a list from companies that did not buy it? That said a non-shoulder cam is no good for shooting news? The Dutch broadcasters bought many PD170's to shoot SD, we call it prosumer cams. And the BBC tried the HVX (how much 4?) and decided to leave it like that. They want to finish the HD experiments first.

The used Olympic HVX's cams and the monitors were for sale. As I understand, the general opinion by EU broadcasters is, that P2 is a system they can invest in, but they look for the professional Panasonic shoulder cams, definitely not the HVX.

And Sony told the world that they wait what AVC-HD is doing. (that is what I read) And that an intraframe version was problematic and not ready to go.

Barry_Green

02-02-2007, 08:45 PM

Maybe Barry could answer this, but I really wonder how many DVX owners actually went out and bought professional DV decks to augment their personal camera?
Don't know the number, but I would guess somewhere around 5% to 10%. I did, but I also wanted/needed the large cassette capability.

I think a good number of them bought cheapo DV camcorders to do the dirty work, or just dealt with the fact that they had to capture from the camcorder, and maybe later on realized it wasn't such a big deal, unless they were shooting a ton of material every day.
Agreed completely. There's a lot of paranoia about "using up" the camera's heads. If you were working in a news station and shuttling tape across the heads all day long, yes I'd worry too. But for most users, they seem to put on a hundred or maybe 200 hours on their heads per year. A professional cam can easily handle that workload; you should be able to go 1000 to 2000 hours before the heads need replacing.

The biggest advantage to a deck (or a mini-cam as a "deck") is that it frees up your $4,000 camcorder to go do the job it does best, instead of being tethered and tied up to do a job that a $299 mini-cam could do equally well.

Barry_Green

02-02-2007, 08:47 PM

So? You want a list from companies that did not buy it?
You started it by saying that Germans didn't buy it. We could go back and forth all day long. What's the point? It's a professional tool sold by the professional broadcast division, which has been adopted in large numbers. Some buyers are going to buy 2/3" (like the Australian Broadcast Corp). Some are going to buy handheld (like Raycom). Some are going to buy Sony. JVC even has a press release on the Cow where they sold a couple of HD250's to some station somewhere. It takes all types to make the world go round.

And Sony told the world ... that an intraframe version was problematic and not ready to go.
Of course they did. They don't have anything to compete with it. They're still trying to push MPEG-2 on the market! They're betting the farm on long-GOP compression. It's the only card they have available to play.

xray

02-02-2007, 09:01 PM

I did. say::huh:

DammitJanet

02-02-2007, 09:02 PM

There's a lot of paranoia about "using up" the camera's heads. If you were working in a news station and shuttling tape across the heads all day long, yes I'd worry too. But for most users, they seem to put on a hundred or maybe 200 hours on their heads per year. A professional cam can easily handle that workload; you should be able to go 1000 to 2000 hours before the heads need replacing.

The biggest advantage to a deck (or a mini-cam as a "deck") is that it frees up your $4,000 camcorder to go do the job it does best, instead of being tethered and tied up to do a job that a $299 mini-cam could do equally well.

Thanks, Barry. You just put my mind at ease.

Emanuel

02-04-2007, 01:00 AM

It will be released on April 6, 2007:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUV6BA?tag=digitalcam

Noel Evans

02-04-2007, 11:28 PM

Some buyers are going to buy 2/3" (like the Australian Broadcast Corp).

Thats true Barry but I have seen the HVX in use by ABC productions in the field. One example is a comedy that uses the HVX for its on the street stuff, talking to passers by, celebs etc.

Barry_Green

02-05-2007, 12:34 AM

Oooh, excellent. No mention of it in the press release, they only talked about 2/3" cams there, but I would expect that they'd buy a number of HVXs too. Everybody needs one-person/handheld/crash cams!

AuditoryVisuals

02-05-2007, 07:38 PM

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Unveils-AG-HSC1U-First-AVCHD-Pro-Camcorder.htm

Wow! Sorry about the feud Barry!

BARYE

02-05-2007, 10:36 PM

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Unveils-AG-HSC1U-First-AVCHD-Pro-Camcorder.htm

Panasonic is targetting that camera for almost the same niche as the HV20 -- but at double the price !! ($2100)

And what's with including a hard drive that isn't used for recording the video ??? (its only to be used for offloading from the SDHC cards)

ecking

02-05-2007, 10:41 PM

Think of it as a free P2 store.

Barry_Green

02-05-2007, 10:48 PM

And what's with including a hard drive that isn't used for recording the video ???
Panasonic will probably *never* produce a product that records video to a hard disk.

magichristopher

02-05-2007, 10:56 PM

It seems silly too me as well. I say drop the hard drive, drop the price $500 and it will be have better competition with the HV20. Hv20 will still have probably better lowlight, 24p, a larger chip and yet less expensive. I would also be willing to bet a more detailed image as well. I love Panasonic, but the timing and pricing are off. At the $2,000 range I was hoping for a DVC30 type cam, with Xlrs, and 1/4 ccds.

kezza

02-07-2007, 03:12 AM

When will this camera get to Australia????

BARYE

02-07-2007, 08:24 AM

Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/07/canons-hv20-hdv-camcorder-reviewed-dubbed-the-monster/):

...Japan's Impress Watch are first to get their hands on a unit for review and although we had to read it using machine translation, it's easy to see that they are, er, impressed. Issues with low light shooting that plagued the HV10 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/canon-EOS-40d-on-the-way/) seem to have been resolved on the HV20. While the CMOS sensor remains the same size, they've added the noise reduction technology found in their EOS camera lineup to bring low-light sensitivity down from 5lux to 3lux. In fact, the HV20 "eradicates" the HV10's weaknesses "entirely." Impress will be hitting a review of Sony's comparable HDR-HC7 (http://www.engadget.com/tag/hdr-hc7) -- a similarly spec'd HDV camcorder that also supports the xvYCC (http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/xvycc) standard found in HDMI 1.3 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/06/13/hdmi-version-1-3-approved/) for wider color range and space -- to see how they stack up side-by-side. No worries, you can wait, the HV20 won't hit US stores until April...

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/02/canon-hv20-reviewed.jpg

vidled

02-07-2007, 08:39 AM

Nice!

Here's the same page translated (using google):
http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2 Fav%2Fdocs%2F20070207%2Fzooma294.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Nik Manning

02-07-2007, 09:52 AM

t-h-e-w-h-o

02-07-2007, 10:03 AM

in my opinion, i prefer tape over that expensive tapeless medium that the hvx users are so fond of.

Nik Manning

02-07-2007, 10:45 AM

I wonder who will be the first to shoot a feature film with this camera using the hdmi output?

JoeNash

02-07-2007, 10:47 AM

Me! :)

Elton

02-07-2007, 12:14 PM

Did any of you see that footage? It looks promising. http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/ezsm4.mov

Check out the direct shot of the sun behind the trees. No smear and the brightness intensity would definitely be a challenge for a CCD.

ProLost

02-07-2007, 12:52 PM

On the other hand, the shot of the girl walking towards the camera is not worth the download time, as it's rediculously out of focus!

-Stu

agwah

02-07-2007, 01:21 PM

Elton

02-07-2007, 01:28 PM

yes, this camera looks unbelievable for the price, the images are great
can't keep thinking about what would happen if it didn't have to be squeezed to fit onto 1440 x1080 and then compressed to hdv, as of now there was no clear answer if it could record the uncompressed or semi uncompressed out of the hdmi

kind of want the 24p sensor and color look from the hv20 with a hard drive and codec like the new panasonic AG-HSC1U
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Unveils-AG-HSC1U-First-AVCHD-Pro-Camcorder.htm

It would probably have a little more depth and pop in the colors if the live HDMI out is uncompressed 4:2:2. It'll be a pain to try and get that image in the field if a laptop HDMI capture card doesn't happen. (laptop tethered would be plenty of pain anyway)

I'm sure Canon will do an AVC HD version of the HV20 (or its future equivalent) at some point. When that time comes, just sell the HV20 for a minor loss and upgrade if it turns out that AVC HD really is that much better.

kezza

02-07-2007, 01:33 PM

It would probably have a little more depth and pop in the colors if the live HDMI out is uncompressed 4:2:2. It'll be a pain to try and get that image in the field if a laptop HDMI capture card doesn't happen. (laptop tethered would be plenty of pain anyway)

I'm sure Canon will do an AVC HD version of the HV20 (or its future equivalent) at some point. When that time comes, just sell the HV20 for a minor loss and upgrade if it turns out that AVC HD really is that much better.

Well i think tape is much easier to edit with compared to AVC HD.

this camera looks amazing... maybe its the price!