Canon HV20

[AuditoryVisuals]

Canon has a reputation for leaked information, Circuit City had the HV20 on their site recently.

But today, Canon announced their HV20, their second HDV camera. It features better low light sensetivity and 24p. Yep, real 24p, no cinema effect, cineframe or 24f. True 24p. People at DVinfo were complaning about the HV10 not being able to shoot 24p, but being able to play back 24f.

I've never seen a consumer camera with the abillity to shoot in true 24fps. Nor have I seen a consumer camera with 1080p. I am really looking forward to this cam! Now, people will be able to replicate a film look for only $1,099.

[magichristopher]

And it has a low lux rating as well. This cam will be the best camcorder of the year, hands down. They could charge twice as much and they would still sell like hotcakes. I am excited about it, way to go Canon, this is revolutionary, giving consumers what they want at a price that is affordable. This makes the GS400, and Gs500 obsolete now and this will be nipping at the heals of the DVX100, (minus the plethora of manual controls) but image quality will be better on even an SD screen.

I just wish the HV20 had a wider lens, but I can't complain, it has 24p IN HD!

[AuditoryVisuals]

I know! I am getting one! I was actually considering an HC7 for a little while. Yuck! I'm getting this HV20!

Does it record in 24fps or with a pulldown?

[Digigenic]

Since the Circuit City and Canon Japan site leaks, I thought the speculation was just an exaggeration to play on the emotions of all those shooters seeking features that were once only reserved for pro-level cameras and never attainable in a $1,000 camera.
But now that would appear to be untrue.
They really did it. They actually gave a consumer level camera real 24p with a pro level cinema setting, low light rating, new focus settings/focus assist, HDMI, and a host of other little goodies.
One of the first consumer level cameras I actually kinda like.

[Digigenic]

Does it record in 24fps or with a pulldown?
From here (http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php)
"The process uses a 2:3 pulldown for recording to tape. The 24p option is available only in HD mode, not in SD mode."

[Zim]

so can you downconvert 24p to SD in camera you think?

[Sean Michael]

Wow! I like the form change from the HV10, also. The new design looks more ergomonic.

Looks like XLR audio is possible with an adapter! Plus, this includes HDMI out.

I have a Sony HC3 that will be up for sale...

Considering the appeal of the XHA1, Canon is kicking butt in the HDV space.

[Kholi]

HV20 is my new toy. Omg. Canon rocks sooo hard.

[Zak Forsman]

nice, it's due in April. looks like i know when to sell my HV10 (which is less than a month old, btw).

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869
http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070131_hv20.html

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/images/hv20ob2closedb.jpg
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/images/hv20obbackb.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6573/ed1qy3.jpg

[philnerd]

I was just starting to wonder what my B-cam was going to be for a wedding I've got lined up in Sep...

[Kholi]

Yeahhhhhhh. There went my iPhone money. I was so going to get an HV10, especially after the Canon HV10 demo. What was it at like 1/30th shutter and it looked crazy-good.

Waiting paid off. I see the Cine setting thing, my question is will you be able to adjust the settings or are you stuck with the preset only? I don't care if you are, that's what post is for. Can't expect much from a one-thousand dollar camera.

Where's that thread where some guy stuck an M2 on his HV10?

[Zak Forsman]

as far as i can tell, there is still no external mic jack. you are limited to the proprietary hotshoe.

[William_Robinette]

The microphone input on the HV20 is a standard 3.5mm stereo mini jack, and there is an accessory mounting shoe on top of the camcorder (more about this in a minute). Manual audio level control is an option which may be chosen from the camera menu. The two audio channels are ganged together when adjusting audio levels; there is no separate left and right control. Audio levels can be displayed in viewfinders if desired.

There is a mic jack.

[Zak Forsman]

There is a mic jack.well, that seals it then. this is the ideal camcorder for picking up b-roll, behind the scenes coverage, as well as the documentarian and the no budget filmmaker.

[Zim]

The microphone input on the HV20 is a standard 3.5mm stereo mini jack, and there is an accessory mounting shoe on top of the camcorder.

Chris Hurd has a pretty good write up on it.

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php

[Kholi]

http://usa.canon.com/app/html/See_The_Difference/hd_cmos.shtml

If we can expect that same quality yet in 24p cadence, I can't see why this camera wouldn't be fit for narrative work to a degree. B-Roll, and that sorta stuff.

[AuditoryVisuals]

What will this do to the competition? Will the other manufacturers try to keep up and offer 24p as well?

The reason that Canon didn't put RAW support on their G7 was to protect the sales of their DSLRs... Sales of your expesnsive things goes down when you put such features on low end models.

Also, does this offer manual gain control? It would seal the deal.

[Spdamf]

If it's only one cmos chip. How is the picture going to compare to the 3 chip CCD that are in the xl-h1 and g1 and a1 series?

[Kholi]

Please see the link posted three posts up.

[Zak Forsman]

http://usa.canon.com/app/html/See_The_Difference/hd_cmos.shtml

If we can expect that same quality yet in 24p cadence, I can't see why this camera wouldn't be fit for narrative work to a degree. B-Roll, and that sorta stuff.


i don't know how useful this is. probably not at all considering the compression, but here is some footage i shot when i first bought the HV10 a month ago. it blows away anything comparable in its class. [link (http://www.livevideo.com/video/SabiPictures/A8328A7252C44BD6BEEEE990D68B0E62/canon-hv10-test-footage.aspx)]

[Kholi]

i don't know how useful this is. probably not at all considering the compression, but here is some footage i shot when i first bought the HV10 a month ago. it blows away anything comparable in its class. [link (http://www.livevideo.com/video/SabiPictures/A8328A7252C44BD6BEEEE990D68B0E62/canon-hv10-test-footage.aspx)]


I remember seeing it, Zak. HV10 rocks. I put up the Canon test because it's got 720p and 1080 versions.

[TimurCivan]

Wow this thing is pretty cool. NICE.

[Emanuel]

My next camera purchase.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

I am definitely interested in getting this. Looks amazing for the price!

[evinsky]

Canon is pulling a Panasonic here, and Panasonic is pulling a Sony, they should have had the HDC-DVX100 replacement out by now, and it should be rocking, instead we have Canon waking up and giving us the A1 and now this little cutie. Harummmph.

[TimurCivan]

i feel like panasonic is going to release something Rad in the next year. it may be too late, but still.....

[hawaj]

Ok and now tell me what quality I get thru HDMI output on my hardrive???
- Full 1920 x 1080 I hope
- but at what fps?
- 8, 10, 12 bits?
- 4:2:2, 4:4:4?
- raw, rgb, mpeg2 or what?

Hope there will be some way cheaper devices kind of Firestore with 2,5 HDD or now more and more cheaper Flash harddrives
and expresscards or laptops with HDMI.

I was thinking of hack this camcorder and rip off built in lenses and add some mount for interchangeable lenses
instead of using lens convertors. ;D

[AuditoryVisuals]

Live output: 60i, 12 bits I think, 4:2:2, RGB.

[BlueWorld]

If you look at how Canon releases new technology on the still side of the house, you know that new sensors and features always get rolled out in consumer models first.

The still images we capture with our 1D series are vastly superior to anything we can get with our H1/A1 chips, and in low light the difference is so vast a comparison isn't even fair.

The 1Ds has a phenomenal CMOS chips, full frame 35mm, 17mp, 4992 x 3328 max resolution, and this sensor is two years old. If I could have 24p with the chip in my 1Ds mkII, wow.

Since Canon has a great track record with still sensors and single chip glass, there is no reason for them not to be looking at unified sensor R&D and production for both still and motion cameras.

I think this camera is a sneak peek at Canon's future product path. With Canon's market penetration in both professional video and still market, their continuing R&D, the size of their R&D budget, and the obvious growing interest in DOF adapters and digital cinema, all I can say is that Red could be dead, and Arri and Panavision should be worried.

[Tzedekh]

Live output: 60i, 12 bits I think, 4:2:2, RGB.But if 24p is used, is it preserved within the 60i stream on HDMI output? If not, the utility of HDMI is somewhat diminished.

[Elton]

Yes, it's preserved the same way 24F is preserved in the 1080 60i SDI output of the XL-H1 and XH-G1.

[Barry_Green]

You will probably get 4:2:2-ish 1080/60i (or 24p within 60i) at 8 bits of actual image data. The XLH1 outputs a 10-bit HDSDI signal but only 8 bits are used, the last two bits are forced to 0. I believe the Sony V1 operates the same way with its HDMI.

[Gordon Prince]

Yes, it's preserved the same way 24F is preserved in the 1080 60i SDI output of the XL-H1 and XH-G1.

What does it mean? Can we go with the 24p (or with the 25p) with the Blackmagic Intensity?

These card specs just say: 1080i !! Not 1080/24p (or 25p)...

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

[Darth Bunnykins]

Hey, anyone know if the HV20 could be hooked up to a Redrock Micro? That would be a gas. In theory, for less than $2500.00, you could have a 24p HDV cam with a cine/35mm still lens adapter. Wouldn't this be cool? Anybody think/know if this combo would work? Anyone? Bueller?

[Elton]

What does it mean? Can we go with the 24p (or with the 25p) with the Blackmagic Intensity?

These card specs just say: 1080i !! Not 1080/24p (or 25p)...

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

It means the progressive material is contained within the 1080i format, just like 24p from the DVX is carried within the DV 60i container. There are redundant fields for 1080i standards compatibility, but there is a true 24p cadence that can be extracted by software if you're savvy enough.

[Emanuel]

Hey, anyone know if the HV20 could be hooked up to a Redrock Micro? That would be a gas. In theory, for less than $2500.00, you could have a 24p HDV cam with a cine/35mm still lens adapter. Wouldn't this be cool? Anybody think/know if this combo would work? Anyone? Bueller?

Who is Bueller? My name is Emanuel! :laugh: :)

Here is the half of the answer to your plead:

LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80227)

[Gordon Prince]

It means the progressive material is contained within the 1080i format, just like 24p from the DVX is carried within the DV 60i container. There are redundant fields for 1080i standards compatibility, but there is a true 24p cadence that can be extracted by software if you're savvy enough.
But reading the Blackmagic Intensity specs:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/techspecs/

Where's the 24p, 25p etc?

[Tzedekh]

You will probably get 4:2:2-ish 1080/60i (or 24p within 60i) at 8 bits of actual image data. The XLH1 outputs a 10-bit HDSDI signal but only 8 bits are used, the last two bits are forced to 0. I believe the Sony V1 operates the same way with its HDMI.I believe that, at least in part, what limits the V1 to 8 bits is that the HDMI implementation is, from what I've read, version 1.2, which supports only up to 24-bit RGB.

[PaPa]

does that hmdi card allow for uncompressed capture?

what about color space?


can this work also for the A1?

[rawfa]

Hey, this little babe looks awesome. I alrady liked the HV10 a lot. Now with true progressive and cine preset! If you can mess around with the presets like with the A1 it's going to be heaven. I guess asking for an XLR port would have been too much (this could have been the PDX10 of HD). I would have this as a backup cam for my A1 without a doubt.

[Elton]

If you can mess around with the presets like with the A1 it's going to be heaven. I guess asking for an XLR port would have been too much (this could have been the PDX10 of HD). I would have this as a backup cam for my A1 without a doubt.

I doubt it's going to have anything approaching the tweakability of the A1, but for cryin' out loud, it's a $1K 1080 24p minicam with a cine preset! I'm sure if the image is at least as clean as the HV10 that there will be a reasonable amount of CC latitude.

I can't wait to get my hands on one!

[Kholi]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Shoot the flattest image you can and grade to all hell.

On top of that, I just got to see some M2 + HV10 footage and it looks pretty freaking good. HV20!

[3CCD]

Unbelievable, I couldn't even believe what I was reading when it was posted on camcorderinfo.com. I'm really excited about this and the price point is remarkable. Hopefully this thing sends some serious performance shock waves and we see some new future developments. I'm definitely giving Canon some serious credit on this one. Everyday I get a little more antsy to just upgrade to HD....

[TimurCivan]

i will seriously buy one....... :)

[phally]

Me too, me thinks me A1 will have a playmate soon come april

[TimurCivan]

now you can shoot rocking 1080P, ANYWHERE. stick it in your pocket, and go...!

[Elton]

btw, anyone seen this press release? : http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20pressrelease.php

[Elton]

now you can shoot rocking 1080P, ANYWHERE. stick it in your pocket, and go...!

Shoot, I'm going to delay a Disneyland trip with the fam 'til spring just for this baby. :)

[TimurCivan]

Wow you are now officailly in the realm of Camera geekdom. Youre postponing Vacations to waitfor the release of a new camera... lol.

[Elton]

We'll have a future family portrait kinda like this one: http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10678/1170396159.jpg

[TimurCivan]

I'd be imressed if yo utoo kthat picture..... thats a great shot.

[Elton]

Sacksnack did it out of pure exhuberant nerdiness in his A1 thread.

[Kholi]

Are we gonna have another Street Price debate yet? Where everyone thought the A1 was gonna be 4k flat because of Canon's strict pricing rules, then it turned around and ended up being like 3600?

Then again, 1099 is already extra-cheap. Come ooooon lil' camera.

[rawfa]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Shoot the flattest image you can and grade to all hell.

On top of that, I just got to see some M2 + HV10 footage and it looks pretty freaking good. HV20!

Are you serious? Isn't the HV10 filter thread diameter like 37mm? It must be a tough combo do handle. I'm very curious to watch that footage. Can you post the link? Or send me a pm with it so we won't jack the thread.

[Zak Forsman]

Are you serious? Isn't the HV10 filter thread diameter like 37mm? It must be a tough combo do handle. I'm very curious to watch that footage. Can you post the link? Or send me a pm with it so we won't jack the thread.http://ia331341.us.archive.org/1/items/rylanwrightbackyardcats/cats.mov

[Emanuel]

Can you post the link? Or send me a pm with it so we won't jack the thread.Rafa,

Here is the thread's LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80227) :)

Emanuel

[rawfa]

Thanks, fellas. I'm downloading the it right now.

[rawfa]

Anyone knows if the HV20 will have a focus control ring? I hate those touch panels.

[Zim]

no it won't.

[AuditoryVisuals]

Anyone knows if the HV20 will have a focus control ring? I hate those touch panels.

Do you mean touch screen? If you do, I don't think it has one anyway. That's Sony. It has a joystick. That's Canon.

[rawfa]

Canon has a joystick to control the focus?

[Digigenic]

Canon has a joystick to control the focus?
No, for focus it's a scroll wheel/button assist.
The joystick is for activating other menu related settings.

source (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm)
Focus control has improved immensely from the HV10 with the inclusion of a scroll wheel located on the left side of the lens barrel (similar to the multifunction dial on Sony’s latest HD camcorders). Focus enhancement features like Focus Assist (which performs an one-touch digital zoom and peaking) will be carried over from the HV10, along with zebra patterns and Guide Markers. Aperture and shutter priority modes are also available.
===========================================
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/images/hv20sideopenb.jpg
===========================================

[magichristopher]

This will be a rediculously good value. I am still impressed with the quality of my Hv10, and this is leaps and bounds better. This is probably the best value for a camcorder ever made. For professional applications, it is almost disposable. It can be used as a POV cam, and it doesn't matter if it gets damaged. I am amazed at Canon, fabulous job.

[phd]

Why canon at DVXuser????

[rawfa]

Why not? :D

[phd]

Because its för DVX and HVX

[Zim]

Why canon at DVXuser????


because Panasonic never gives us much to talk about!!

[phd]

Perhaps after NAB

[Emanuel]

Why canon at DVXuser????Because dvxuser.com is wider than a commercial brand.

I'm a former Panasonic customer but never was a DVX one, almost was a HVX one. However, I'm proud to be a Jarred's friend and a distinctive dvxuser.com member (sorry me, my faux humbleness). So, this website is also for the Jarred's friends. And he has so many! And not all are consuming the same Pana fuel. :D

[Emanuel]

Here is an exact date release: on April 6, 2007

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUV6BA?tag=digitalcam

[AuditoryVisuals]

Aww... I thought it was comming out in March!

Heh heh:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=850905&postcount=88

[Darth Bunnykins]

How might the Canon HV20 compare to the Panasonic DVX100. Anyone have an opinion on this? As I do not own the Panny, and nobody has the Canon, I know this is next to impossible to probably comment on. But I'm hoping that any folks with experience with an HV10 and the Panny might be able to make an educated guess.

Thanks,

[magichristopher]

It will not be as good in lowlight, yet probably a cleaner image. Not as wide of a lens, but goes a bit longer. HV20 looks like a consumer cam, no XLRs. Less manual control, but a better image. It is kinda a like a consumer DVX100, in high def.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Thanks magichristopher.

[Emanuel]

Not exactly on the HV20 subject but, since both share the same architecture, here is some info taking the prior HV10 example:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8484705#post8484705

[agwah]

will the hv20 record the 24p onto the tape in the same way the canon A1 does

if a frame is stopped anywhere on the timeline, will you ever see those interlaced lines, or is all that happens that a couple of frames show up twice instead

[Barry_Green]

No. It records it onto tape the way the Sony does. You will see "interlaced line" on two out of every five frames.

[Sean Michael]

HV20 looks like a consumer cam, no XLRs.

It's been said that XLR will be possible with an adapter (via the "advanced accessory shoe")?

[Elton]

There will definitely be interlace pulldown to contend with, ( except for our rational PAL users once again) but the savvy user can easily get around it.

With CineForm supporting the HDMI Intensity card from Blackmagic, it will extract the native 24p for you and give you pure 24p material to edit on a 24p timeline. I've heard they're coming to the Mac soon also, so there will be options for folks like me too.

It may be a bit of a hassle, but to get real 24P in HD from a $1K camera (limitations of the cam notwithstanding) is mind-blowing. Whatever hoops you have to jump through are probably worth it.


--side note: Barry, since you mentioned this cam in the fest possibilities poll thread, and now the thread is closed, I just wanted to give you props for your take. I totally agreed with it.

I'd like to see more inclusiveness, but for it to only go so far. It is all about community; witness that a lot of dvx owners have moved on to other gear...but they still stick around. I think that's a great thing and should be encouraged. I still say 1/3" HD or SD. Nothing beyond that, except for NC.

[Barry_Green]

I know what you're saying -- I want the fest to be where we're at; if we get a big influx of HV20 users then we should definitely consider opening it up. I could see 1/3"-and-smaller, 24p cams being allowed. But there's always gonna be someone or something; if we say "$5,000 and below" then G1 owners are going to wonder why they're excluded when A1 users are included, and I could see their point. If we say "any 1/3" HD/HDV", then we'll have kids with $1,099 HV20's competing against guys with $9,000 XLH1s with optional lenses too. It's a difficult thing to balance, and I just hope the decision that's made is in the best interest of the community and the fest. It's hard to rock the boat when the boat seems to be steaming along so well! But if the community changes, the fest should change with it.

[disjecta]

witness that a lot of dvx owners have moved on to other gear...but they still stick around. I think that's a great thing and should be encouraged. I still say 1/3" HD or SD. Nothing beyond that, except for NC.

I'll say. I agree with the inclusion comment also. :)

[Elton]

I know what you're saying -- I want the fest to be where we're at; if we get a big influx of HV20 users then we should definitely consider opening it up. I could see 1/3"-and-smaller, 24p cams being allowed. But there's always gonna be someone or something; if we say "$5,000 and below" then G1 owners are going to wonder why they're excluded when A1 users are included, and I could see their point. If we say "any 1/3" HD/HDV", then we'll have kids with $1,099 HV20's competing against guys with $9,000 XLH1s with optional lenses too. It's a difficult thing to balance, and I just hope the decision that's made is in the best interest of the community and the fest. It's hard to rock the boat when the boat seems to be steaming along so well! But if the community changes, the fest should change with it.

The funny thing is I really don't think there's going to be that big of a competitive advantage between a maxed-out H1 (or JVC 250 even) all the way down to an HV20. We're talking about web and DVD frame sizes anyway. All the 1/3" 24p cameras are easily good enough. Sure, an H1 or JVC owner could use a few different lenses, but how exactly would that give them an edge? An HV20 owner could put an M2 in front of his little camera, and given enough talent, skill and effort--could easily compete, particularly in an aesthetic sense, with the output of more expensive 1/3" cams.

The bottom line is good 24p has been democratized in SD and HD at every pricepoint. It started with the dvx, but has grown into a very diverse ecosystem. I think diversity should be embraced to a reasonable degree.

I think it's worth a try for at least one competition. If there's too much whining, it can always go back to the dvx/hvx focus.

[scannon]

This debate about HV20 in a fest and Canon's being discussed on a DVX/HVX forum is interesting. LIke Elton said many DVX users have moved on but still stick around. I do for example.

I can compare this to my frustration as a golfer. One day I was playing with friends and we were playing $10 per hole. My team mate and I were tied with the other twosome after six holes making the seventh hole worth $70 for the winner.

I hit my tee shot long but with a big slice. My second shot was with a seven iron out of heavy grass. I smashed the shot and the club hung up and the ball went 20 yards into the fairway. Angry at myself I took out my putter and smacked the ball 120 yards at about six inches off the ground. I landed on the green, rolled 20 yards into the cup for a birdie and a win!.

Three of the ugliest shots ever and the putter was used like it was never intented. But when you looked at my score card it was a ligitimate birdie for the win.

If you make a competitve short using the HV20 then God Bless. If the shooter didn't confess you might not even know!.

Lets encourage professional production reagardless of the tool as long as the medium, i.e. HD/SD 24P is upheld.

S Cannon

[OldCorpse]

Hmm. I can see using the HV20 in tandem with the A1... say you really need something small and light and not too expensive, like strapped to the side of a car, or in some other high risk situation... why, the HV20 footage would probably cut ok with the A1! I mean, at $1000, I can see taking risks I wouldn't dare to with the A1. The other thought - I wonder how the HV20 would work with Merlin... can you throw on a 35 adapter at that point, since you can't do that with larger cameras and still have Merlin work?

[ecking]

I know what you're saying -- I want the fest to be where we're at; if we get a big influx of HV20 users then we should definitely consider opening it up. I could see 1/3"-and-smaller, 24p cams being allowed. But there's always gonna be someone or something; if we say "$5,000 and below" then G1 owners are going to wonder why they're excluded when A1 users are included, and I could see their point. If we say "any 1/3" HD/HDV", then we'll have kids with $1,099 HV20's competing against guys with $9,000 XLH1s with optional lenses too. It's a difficult thing to balance, and I just hope the decision that's made is in the best interest of the community and the fest. It's hard to rock the boat when the boat seems to be steaming along so well! But if the community changes, the fest should change with it.

Why not just include any camera that can do in camera 24p irregardless of format or price. We could become 24p user or something. But I am fond of the name dvxuser though. Like Elton said since it's gonna be viewed on the web it shouldn't be too hard to match quality between them all.

It's something to think about as our dear dvx begins to enter the twilight of it's life.

[Barry_Green]

We're thinking. That's why Jarred posed the question in the first place...

[jenningsp]

the only video output on the camera is HDMI right???

so can you connect a monitor such as -

http://www.xenarcdirect.com/product.php?productid=16134&cat=249&page=1

which has VGA and composite?????

how would you set this up?

i think you can convert the HDMI to VGA with these two adapters

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=324972&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=407805&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

but isn't one digital and the other analogue? there is some confusion here.

how would you connect a live on camera monitor to this camera???

[MovieSwede]

Just make the fest 24P/25P 720*480 and we all compete on almost equal terms. Let the storystelling be the star, not the cam.

[Norbert]

jenningsp: It will have several video outputs, at least according to camcorderinfo: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Canon-HV10-Sony-HDR-HC7-and-Sony-HDR-HC5-Camcorders-Compared.htm

- HDMI
- AV Out
- USB
- IEEE 1394
- Composite Out

[jenningsp]

if it's got composite out separate to the AV out. then all is cool.

[jenningsp]

what does this mean?

"Focus enhancement features like Focus Assist (which performs an one-touch digital zoom and peaking"

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm

does this mean that the image is enlarged on the lcd - or is it just zooming in digitally and you cant do this wile recording? i hope it's a pixel for pixel view of the image on the lcd... do you know what i mean???

[AuditoryVisuals]

I almost thought it meant Focus Enhancements (as in firestore).

I think it's the enlargement. Fine focusing. Nothing really special, carried over from HV10.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Does anybody know enough about the way the HV20 lays its 24p to tape? Specifically, can I extract the 24p to edit natively in FCP?

Thanks,

[Nik Manning]

I wonder if You could just put this camera in a bigger camera body somehow? something bigger and more professional. Can the touch screen lcd be removed from the camera and placed somewhere else? Add a 35mm adapter and hdmi card output and you have a super camera capable of uncompressed 1080p24 with 35mm dof for under $4000. You could use this also as a super kick azz green screen studio cam. The HDMI really changes things. I am sold. Finally I can afford this!

[Kholi]

I wonder if You could just put this camera in a bigger camera body somehow? something bigger and more professional. Can the touch screen lcd be removed from the camera and placed somewhere else? Add a 35mm adapter and hdmi card output and you have a super camera capable of uncompressed 1080p24 with 35mm dof for under $4000. You could use this also as a super kick azz green screen studio cam. The HDMI really changes things. I am sold. Finally I can afford this!


Bondo and Fiberglass.

Seriously, it could be done if you're willing to rip the camera apart and sacrifice it for the cause.

[Barry_Green]

Does anybody know enough about the way the HV20 lays its 24p to tape? Specifically, can I extract the 24p to edit natively in FCP?
Not yet. It lays it down the same way the Sony V1U does. I believe Vegas can extract the pulldown, but I don't think FCP can.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Thanks Barry,

[Nik Manning]

I think I am willing to rip it apart. I would however like to come up with away to capture to a less compressed format like DVCPROHD or others with a laptop. http://usa.canon.com/app/html/See_The_Difference/hd_cmos.shtml this footage has me speechless. If the HV20 does that at 24p I am sold. The Black Magic Card is also awesome. I just read up on it. http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/quality/

[Kholi]

Sorry, kid. Right now there's no option for Laptop capture via HDMI. You'd have to come up with a portable desktop solution that would incorporate the Black Magic Card.

[vidled]

Right now there's no option for Laptop capture via HDMI.

But soon! Sony VGN-AR70B (june 07 in Japan).

[Nik Manning]

Okay I read that the Sharpness was adjustable on the HV10. Has anyone played with that? Because that seems to be what alot of shooters adjust when shooting hd for a film look. I hope HV20 can adjust the sharpness.

[kezza]

When will this camera be released in Australia... anyone know?

And does it shoot 16:9?
and it shoots to tape?


sorry for the silly question

KEZZA

[AuditoryVisuals]

I don't know about realease in Australia.

The other questions have already been discussed and are at various websites, but anyway here are your answers:

And does it shoot 16:9?
Yes, it shoots 16:9 but it is recorded as 4:3 in 1440x1080, however, the live output through HDMI is 16:9.

and it shoots to tape? Yes, it shoots to MiniDV tape using the HDV codec at 25mb/s.

sorry for the silly question

Well, atleast you didn't ask if it had a glass lens, or if it's digital.

[BARYE]

for those not following the other (later) thread, more info on the HV20:

Engadget: (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/07/canons-hv20-hdv-camcorder-reviewed-dubbed-the-monster/)

...Japan's Impress Watch (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm) are first to get their hands on a unit for review and although we had to read it using machine translation, it's easy to see that they are, er, impressed. Issues with low light shooting that plagued the HV10 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/canon-EOS-40d-on-the-way/) seem to have been resolved on the HV20. While the CMOS sensor remains the same size, they've added the noise reduction technology found in their EOS camera lineup to bring low-light sensitivity down from 5lux to 3lux. In fact, the HV20 "eradicates" the HV10's weaknesses "entirely." Impress will be hitting a review of Sony's comparable HDR-HC7 (http://www.engadget.com/tag/hdr-hc7) -- a similarly spec'd HDV camcorder that also supports the xvYCC (http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/xvycc) standard found in HDMI 1.3 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/06/13/hdmi-version-1-3-approved/) for wider color range and space -- to see how they stack up side-by-side. No worries, you can wait, the HV20 won't hit US stores until April...



http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/02/canon-hv20-reviewed.jpg

[kezza]

for those not following the other (later) thread, more info on the HV20:

Engadget: (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/07/canons-hv20-hdv-camcorder-reviewed-dubbed-the-monster/)

...Japan's Impress Watch (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm) are first to get their hands on a unit for review and although we had to read it using machine translation, it's easy to see that they are, er, impressed. Issues with low light shooting that plagued the HV10 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/canon-EOS-40d-on-the-way/) seem to have been resolved on the HV20. While the CMOS sensor remains the same size, they've added the noise reduction technology found in their EOS camera lineup to bring low-light sensitivity down from 5lux to 3lux. In fact, the HV20 "eradicates" the HV10's weaknesses "entirely." Impress will be hitting a review of Sony's comparable HDR-HC7 (http://www.engadget.com/tag/hdr-hc7) -- a similarly spec'd HDV camcorder that also supports the xvYCC (http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/xvycc) standard found in HDMI 1.3 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/06/13/hdmi-version-1-3-approved/) for wider color range and space -- to see how they stack up side-by-side. No worries, you can wait, the HV20 won't hit US stores until April...



http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/02/canon-hv20-reviewed.jpg

Camera Looks Amazing

[superone]

HV20 footage is available at Japan site http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/ (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/ezsm2.mov) or at www.listvideo.com

[Darth Bunnykins]

Is it okay to refer to another message board on this board? Sorry if I'm stepping on toes, but I'll post this anyways, and obviously take it down if I broke a rule or two.

Cine Color Mode on the Canon HV20
In Chris Hurd's overview of this camera over on DV Info, he writes:

"There's a Cine color mode available as well, which can be used with or without 24p. It's actually based on one of the Custom Presets included with the Canon XH A1 and G1 camcorders, number 8 (Cine.V.) The parameters of that preset are Gamma: Cine 1, Knee: Low, Black: Stretch, Sharpness: -4, Color Matrix: Cine 1, Color Gain: -20, Color Phase: +5, Red-Blue: -5, Green-Red: -5, Blue-Red: +5, and Red-Green: +12. When the HV20 begins shipping in April, it'll be interesting to see how this Cine color option matches up with Custom Preset 8 from an XH A1."

Assuming it is close to the Custom Preset 8 of the XH A1, and with the idea of shooting as dynamic an exposure as possible, for either better color correction in post or for a film out, does anybody have an opinion as to how this Cine Color Mode stands up?

Thanks,

[Elton]

I thik it's a good preset in general. It should look good with or without CC.

[Barry_Green]

does anybody have an opinion as to how this Cine Color Mode stands up?

It's months away from release. We can't know until we get it in our hands and try it. It sounds promising, like they intend to make it able to match.

[Elton]

I only said that in general the settings work well on the H1 and A1. It may match fairly well, but I don't expect it to be exactly like you get with the more expensive cameras.

It'll probably have its own distinctive look, but like you said Barry, we won't know until its released or Kaku comes to the rescue!

[Barry_Green]

I certainly expect Kaku to be the first on the block shooting footage. That guy gets the first of everything!

[Giallogreg]

Some laptops have a DVI input, could you maybe use one of those HDMI-DVI adapters?

[agwah]

footage but not kaku this time

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2 Fav%2Fdocs%2F20070207%2Fzooma294.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

will it be possible to use the sony recorder on this one and maintain the 24p frames after it has been deinterlaced

Sony HVR-DR60
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=461819&is=REG

[Inexistence]

Does anyone know if 1/48th shutter is an option on the HV20? If it is I'm putting
in my order!

[Kholi]

Footage is clean. But they suck and encoding. It's so hard to play that back. But just seeing the footage has me pretty much sold.

They need to learn how to encode a file so everyone can play it back. Even my Desktop had stuttering issues.

[philnerd]

Does anyone know if 1/48th shutter is an option on the HV20? If it is I'm putting
in my order!

I can't imagine it not being an option. You might want to get your pre-order in for an early arrival. That'll leave the option to cancel your order when full specs come out.

But again, Canon's "techy" cams have been quite fully featured the last couple of years (especially starting with the Optura 40). I just can't imagine they wouldn't make 1/48th shutter available in 24P mode...

[Norbert]

From what I understand it will not be possible to set the shutter and iris independently on this camera? So if I want to keep the shutter at 1/50 the iris will be on auto? Will it be possible to lock the iris? If not, how could anyone use this camera for narrative work if the exposure keeps changing all the time?

[philnerd]

From what I understand it will not be possible to set the shutter and iris independently on this camera? So if I want to keep the shutter at 1/50 the iris will be on auto? Will it be possible to lock the iris? If not, how could anyone use this camera for narrative work if the exposure keeps changing all the time?

My lowly Optura 30 and my original Elura both allowed me to lock the exposure and adjust the shutter speed.

[Kholi]

And apparently the HV10 allows people to do the same. Not sure thuogh. Anyone wanna chime in?

Forsman?

[Zim]

from Chris Hurd,, Confirmed, shutter speeds in 24p are: 1/6, 1/12, 1/24, 1/48, 1/60, 1/100 ... 250... 500... 1000... 2000.

[Kholi]

1/48 baby. Game is on.

[Elton]

That should be enough to work with. :)

[Jim Martin]

nice, it's due in April. looks like i know when to sell my HV10 (which is less than a month old, btw).

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869
http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070131_hv20.html

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/images/hv20ob2closedb.jpg
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/images/hv20obbackb.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6573/ed1qy3.jpg
Hey everyone, as part of our Canon H1/G1/A1 seminar this Saturday(the 10th), we will have a prototype HV20 for people to see and touch!
The Seminar starts at 9am, Greg Salmon from Canon will be here going over the cameras. It's $30 and we feed you. If you would like to attend, please call us@ 323-466-8211 so we can get a good head count and try to bring cash so I can get everyone checked in faster.

Jim Martin
Birns & Sawyer inc
6381 DeLongpre Ave
Hollywood, CA 90028
"At the ArcLight":)

[Inexistence]

1/48 baby. Game is on.


damn straight!

[Kholi]

Has anyone else tried to watch the HV20 footage posted on that site?

Their compression is HORRIBLE, but only because it's so hard to play back. The quality is still there.

Anyone want to recompress to something that can actually be played? I might try to recompress it myself to see if that makes any difference.

Ylou can tell, because the 60i footage is still stuttery but when it reaches the right playback speed on the hardware, it's glassy smooth.

[Artscroll]

Yes, it stutters bad for me too. I second the recompress notion. Someone please recompress.

[Kholi]

Either way. I am pretty impressed with the image quality from this tiny thing. It's so clean.

[Norbert]

Apparently there is an EXP button that will lock the exposure like there is on the HV10. That's as close to full manual control as you will get. Just set it on Tv mode, set the shutter speed, press the EXP button and roll the control wheel to set the exposure.

I have another question about exposure though. Does it say anywhere if this camera will have zebras? Does the HV10 have zebras?

[Inexistence]

^^
LINKY! (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Breaks-into-the-Consumer-HDV-Market-with-the-HV10.htm)

Additional features on the HV10 include a video light, histogram display, zebra
patterns and grid markers. It uses a Canon HD video lens, F1.8 – F3.0, with a
37mm filter diameter. The zoom range extends to 10x optical and 200x digital.
The focal distance ranges (in 35mm equiv.) from 43.6mm – 436mm.

the other link (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm)

[Norbert]

Thanks. Then I really hope that HV20 will have zebras as well. It seems like this cam is going to have everything I can't live without. :) The only drawback might be that it isn't possible to turn off the gain.

[dLight]

http://www.timurcivan.com/katrina/katrina_h264_HD.mov
What camera have you been using here?

[Emanuel]

The only drawback might be that it isn't possible to turn off the gain.?

Isn't it possible to turn off the gain?? Are you sure?

[Nik Manning]

Did anyone attend the Birns and Sawyers hv20 preview on satuday? I was hoping someone could report on what they thought about the preproduction model.

[Elton]

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86182

[Norbert]

?

Isn't it possible to turn off the gain?? Are you sure?I read something about it on dvinfo. Apparently you can turn it off on the HV20 but when you crank up the exposure it will still add gain, I think. Read more about it in the last (11th) post on this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85370

[Emanuel]

Thanks Norbert.

I read it. However, I could understand that would be possible to have manual control on it, right?

That said, it is what matters (it's only a question of management and knowledge of the device, I think).

[Fugitive]

This looks awesome! Has anyone done any green-screen work with the HV10? I would assume that it would be even better with the HV20?

[jenningsp]

to edit the footage i will have to convert to DVCPRO because my computer can't handle HDV at all.

i will be getting the PAL version when it comes out. what would you recomend;
convert 1080 25p HDV to 720 25p DVCPRO or 1080 50i DVCPRO????

[Fugitive]

From the price, it looks like the quality of this baby wouldnt be as good as the FX1, but with technology improving at a magnificent rate, I wouldnt be surprised if it had about the same quality. Anyone have any comparisons etc?

[Inexistence]

I think there was a thread about it over on dvinfo... gimme a sec



edit:

here's the link that's just the HV10 vs the FX1 (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74848)

and the original link (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fvideosan.web.fc2.com/HV10docs/hv10vsfx1.html)

[Fugitive]

Thanks! Just what I was looking for.

[Four Eyed Monsters]

Would this camera be worth swaping my XL2 for? :dankk2:

[Zim]

I was thinking I read that you could only do 24p in HDV mode. So I emailed Canon and ask. This is part of the email response.

'The 24p mode however I believe to be both HDV and
SD standards as it was for the XL2 camcorder. '

[Zim]

Would this camera be worth swaping my XL2 for? :dankk2:


I guess it depends on what your going to be doing.

[Four Eyed Monsters]

Music Videos, and Experimental Art Videos, Weddings, Family Events, Narrative Work.

[scharky]

Would this camera be worth swaping my XL2 for? :dankk2:

Not if you like having manual controls, XLR inputs and a descent form factor, show up on a set with a handy cam like that and you'll be laughed out of the building.

Now the XL2 for the XH-A1 or XL-H1 that's an entirely different story.

[Four Eyed Monsters]

thanks, i think i will stick with the XL2 until i can find a way to get the HVX200:thumbup:

[Zim]

I would keep the XL2 and get the HV20. It is to bad form factor is so important. What the camera looks like, but I guess the end results are what counts. If they start laughing tell them to get off your set!!

[FutureDVXUser]

So people can make movies with the HV20? Wouldn't people with the HV20 laugh at people spending $4,000 for a camorder when they get almost the same thing for so much less? So they don't have XLR adaptors and have to spend more time doing voice overs...

Anyway, how come I hear about having to get this camcorder if I got the Canon XH A1? I can't convert Canon XH A1 into my computer via firewire?

Please let me know.

Thanks.

[Norbert]

So people can make movies with the HV20?Sure, why not? :)

Anyway, how come I hear about having to get this camcorder if I got the Canon XH A1? I can't convert Canon XH A1 into my computer via firewire?You can but you would put extra wear on the heads of the XH A1.

[FutureDVXUser]

Ooo, thanks for letting me know...

[scharky]

I'm not saying you can't shoot a film with the HV20, I'm sure it would come out just fine IF you have a good DP director, Grip etc. However, if you show up on a paid professional set for a large client and you break out the good ol HV20 they will look at you and go, ok, now where is your real camera.
I'm not saying that that is the way it should be, but it is. Even with the form factor of the A1 or H1 it is considered small and unimpressive to uneducated not very well endowed clients. :(

[Kholi]

We know, Future, that it should be fine as long as the camera you are using produces a stellar image.

However, you have to remember that humans ARE visual creatures: clients want to SEE their money from the very second you start working. The A1/HVX/DVX form-factor is just now being accepted and it's going to take a while for something like the HV20 to be accepted on paid pro shoots.

I really want to get an HV20, man. I am deciding between an SGpro Rev2 and this little gem.

[FutureDVXUser]

Really, they concider the A1 small? That's insane...

Aren't so many movies being made digital on these HDV cams? I saw somethin about Fearless bein shot on a Z1U...

[Kholi]

Fearless? Jet-Li's movie? Be careful about saying such things... maybe they did Behind the Scenes with the Z1U.

And yes, the A1 is a small camera. Regardless of how many digital productions there are, only a small percentage of those are actually using these smaller cameras. There are pricey Digital Cameras, you know? Cinealta, Varicam, Viper, etc.

[FutureDVXUser]

I've heard of the CineAlta, they look sweet... Here, check this out... I was just looking up the Cinealta... And here's some true irony about Jet Li's Fearless... Maybe I did hear right... I dunno for a fact though... Welcome to the Le Duc Design Group (http://home.earthlink.net/~leducdesign/index2.html)

Check out the Jet Li Poster: "Greg's Z1U work brings to life the making of Jet Li's last martial arts extravaganza, "Fearless."

Check it out on the DVD Release!"
OHHHHH: THE MAKING OF IT...

Sorry, you see what happens when you worked overnights for so long? You stop thinkin' right...

But there is something on the site: "Greg is one of the first Cinematographers in the Industry to have footage from the Sony HVR-Z1U HDV Camera transferred to Film and Professionally Released!"

Ok, my post is goin over board now...

[icicle22]

The HV20 looks like a toy compared to the A1

The A1 looks like a toy compared to the H1

The H1 looks like a toy compared to a Varicam

It is all relative.

Remember that many higher end digital cameras are gigantic too. Sometimes it actually adds to their usefullness/functionality....other times it is just for show.

IMHO

[Kholi]

Yeah, it says the making of. As in, the behind the scenes.

Now, someone bring me an HV20.

[FutureDVXUser]

The HV20 looks like a toy compared to the A1

The A1 looks like a toy compared to the H1

The H1 looks like a toy compared to a Varicam


Haha, I'd like to know what a 35mm cam makes consumer cams look like...

I edited that because I didnt wanna make it look like I'm dirty mouthin the HV20...

[Zim]

You could give me a Varicam and Steven Spielberg a HV20 shooting the samething and his would be 100 times better.

Plus if you set out to make a low budget , people working with you should know up front what is going on. If I had a huge budget I wouldn't use a HV20 either.

But all the people out there with a dream of a getting lucky with a Blair Witch or doing Supersize Me type stuff, I think now will have a better tool to make that happen.

You will be able to trick the HV20 out to give it a better look anyway.

[Kholi]

I'd love to see someone Mod their HV20 into something else that still works and looks dope.

And we know that it's not about camera size (actually in some respects, it is.) but that's not the point. Point is that a human is still a human. Investors want to SEE their money, dude.

That won't change for quite some time.

[Zim]

I don't have investors. So the HV20 might be perfect for me!!

[vidled]

I'd love to see someone Mod their HV20 into something else that still works and looks dope.

I challenge Issac to make this:

http://pig.us/nerf-cam.jpg

:)

[FutureDVXUser]

I'd shoot a movie with that baby

[dop16mm]

Slap it on a steadicam merlin or JR and no one will question it's status. I'm no good with photoshop so you'll have to use your imagination...

Start out by wrapping the rig in something like the red cage. Add pistol grips, shoulder pad, 7" lcd, big honking matte box... or 35mm adapter and follow focus.

I've been thinking that this camera is so small that you could mount it on the Redrock M2 upside down so you don't have to flip the image in post, use your monitors the right way up...

[Kholi]

Slap it on a steadicam merlin or JR and no one will question it's status. I'm no good with photoshop so you'll have to use your imagination...

Start out by wrapping the rig in something like the red cage. Add pistol grips, shoulder pad, 7" lcd, big honking matte box... or 35mm adapter and follow focus.

I've been thinking that this camera is so small that you could mount it on the Redrock M2 upside down so you don't have to flip the image in post, use your monitors the right way up...

My brain just exploded. How does that work? Won't you still have to flip the image?

[Norbert]

The image will be recorded upside down so that would work.

[Kholi]

The image will be recorded upside down so that would work.

Yeah, but he said that you wouldn't have to flip the image in post... but you would. You just view the image in the monitor right side up or something.

Either way, it doesn't change the idea that you have to flip it in post.

[dat5150]

vidled....that is hillarious!....and using a gun design is not a bad idea IMO....just don't take it to a warzone!

[ProLost]

I've been thinking that this camera is so small that you could mount it on the Redrock M2 upside down so you don't have to flip the image in post, use your monitors the right way up...

Genius!

-Stu

[Barry_Green]

Either way, it doesn't change the idea that you have to flip it in post.
Yes it does. If the camera is upside down, it records the footage upside down. But the RedRock is feeding it upside-down imagery already. So upside-down x upside-down = rightside-up.

[Ieditshoot]

any screen shots or vids?

[AuditoryVisuals]

But all the people out there with a dream of a getting lucky with a Blair Witch or doing Supersize Me type stuff, I think now will have a better tool to make that happen.

Yes, all the documentarians (and mockumentarians) will love this camera. You get a film look with out even needing a crew or having to carry anything. Low budget, independent and guerilla filmmakers will love this camera... Mostly just guerilla though.

[Dmitry Yun]

This cam is a dream come true to all filmmakers, I think once it comes out and some works are seen by it people are going to be flabbergasted by the quality. The only thing that bums me out is the manual focusing, I so wish it had a ring for that but heck for 1000$ a cam with 24p and hd, I couldn't complain. Now just get a micro35 and some good primes and the manual focus is solved completely. AWESOME! :) gonna make some movies in april.

[Kholi]

Yes it does. If the camera is upside down, it records the footage upside down. But the RedRock is feeding it upside-down imagery already. So upside-down x upside-down = rightside-up.

Oh okay. Well that does sound good. Just couldn't wrap my head around the idea.

So why can't you just do this with an HVX or something like that? Refigure the mounts to raise the M2 or SGPro so you can flip it upside down??

Then you'd just turn the monitor upside down, right?

[Barry_Green]

No, you'd leave the monitor rightside up. Problem with an HVX or XHA1 or whatever is that they're just too big to reliably mount and use that way. Plus all your buttons and menus and whatever would be upside-down!

[Kholi]

HA! Naysayer! I'll try it as soon as I get my hands on my own adapter.

[Jay Rodriguez]

lol, such a rebel

[Kholi]

LoL I'm just messin'.

[Barry_Green]

You can do it, sure. But why not just get the Letus that flips for you? Or the forthcoming Cinevate with flip... I dunno, I just can't be bothered with that whole flipping-the-image-upside-down workflow. I tried it with the G35 and such, and while the G35 image was surprisingly good, the whole upside-down workflow is just too... well... I dunno. To each his own, but Quyen has already proved that you can make one that flips for you, for half the cost of the non-flippers, so I think we should start demanding right-side-up adapters from these folks instead of accepting the silly upside-down implementations!

[Kholi]

You can do it, sure. But why not just get the Letus that flips for you? Or the forthcoming Cinevate with flip... I dunno, I just can't be bothered with that whole flipping-the-image-upside-down workflow. I tried it with the G35 and such, and while the G35 image was surprisingly good, the whole upside-down workflow is just too... well... I dunno. To each his own, but Quyen has already proved that you can make one that flips for you, for half the cost of the non-flippers, so I think we should start demanding right-side-up adapters from these folks instead of accepting the silly upside-down implementations!


I haven't seen enough footage from the LetusFlip to compare it to what I see from the SGpro (Which is my top choice). I'd like to see some more HVX + LetusFlip footage, certainly.

How much is the new Cinevate going to be?

[Norbert]

I think HV20 + SGpro would be a killer combo! Too bad the SGpro doesn't have flip, but I'm sure it will work just fine to mount the HV20 upside down. The real benefit of this is you don't have to go through the flipping in post.

Does anyone know if the HV10 will need the achromat to be able to focus on the GG on the SGpro? Something tells me it's just the larger cameras that will need the achromat. Does the achromat provide any other benefits than helping to focus on the GG?

[Gordon Prince]

Why do you prefer the SGPro instead the Brevis? Okay, it's sharper but it's not the same bokeh...

[jeans]

Am I the only one who thinks the stills and video samples available from the HV20 aren't that impressive. They look pretty nice if your a bit zoomed out, but looking at the actual pixels seems to show an unatural artifact. It looks kind of like it's been blurred and then sharpened in Photoshop to hide grain and color noise. It looks similar to the images I get from my bottom of the line Kodak Easyshare still camera. Is this due to jpg compression, or is this an artifact of the cameras image processing geared towards a lower lux rating? If that is the case, could you get a better image by recording straight through the HDMI? Would that bypass anything? Also I wonder what people think about the latitude of this camera.

[Norbert]

Why do you prefer the SGPro instead the Brevis? Okay, it's sharper but it's not the same bokeh...Personally I think the SGpro rev 2 has the most convincing bokeh out of the bunch and it looks like it's the sharpest adapter. That's what's important to me. The Brevis is very easy to set up on the other hand. That might be more important to someone else.

[Kholi]

^^ Agreed. The SGpro is solid in every department. Of course, minus the flip.

[Kholi]

Am I the only one who thinks the stills and video samples available from the HV20 aren't that impressive. They look pretty nice if your a bit zoomed out, but looking at the actual pixels seems to show an unatural artifact. It looks kind of like it's been blurred and then sharpened in Photoshop to hide grain and color noise. It looks similar to the images I get from my bottom of the line Kodak Easyshare still camera. Is this due to jpg compression, or is this an artifact of the cameras image processing geared towards a lower lux rating? If that is the case, could you get a better image by recording straight through the HDMI? Would that bypass anything? Also I wonder what people think about the latitude of this camera.

For tests I think they look great. I'm sure when the camera hits shelves and the owners tap it's real power, llike every other camera out there, it'll be even better.

The HV10's Canon footage looks stellar... HV20 should basically be the same image.

[Jay Rodriguez]

yeah but what would be considered the better one in the HD department?

[TimurCivan]

Why do you prefer the SGPro instead the Brevis? Okay, it's sharper but it's not the same bokeh...

yea the SGpro has better bokeh....... :Drogar-Evil(DBG):


Actually the Brevis is good too, but a vibrating adapter does not move the ggscreen in a perfect linear direction, it kinda vibrates a little bit in all direction. so what happens is i find the vibrating solutions to just softern up a tad. And this becomes your worst nightmare if you do high shutter speed work, c ause a 1/250+ shutter will freeze the gg in an "off focus plane" position, and you get this weird in and out of focus strobing and strange grain patterns on solid colors.

spinning GG, never actually stops, where as a vibrating one goes a milimeter in one direction, stops, then goes back and ofrth, and back and forth.... etc. high shutter speeds can read that.

I still like the brevis though. if the Sgpro wasnt around, i'd be using that no problems.


yeah but what would be considered the better one in the HD department?


1 guess jay.... you get one guess..... :)

[Norbert]

The HV10's Canon footage looks stellar... HV20 should basically be the same image.I really hope so. My biggest fear is that the HV20 will not look as sharp and stellar in the progressive mode. Anyway, I think the first test images look good, but I agree that it will probably look way better when people start discovering it's potential.

[AuditoryVisuals]

I hope so too. When I first saw the HV10 images on Watch-Impress, I was impressed. But not so much with the HV20....

[Darth Bunnykins]

It's now listed on Vistek's site in Canada. Cheaper than what Canon's Canadian press release listed it as.

http://www.vistek.ca/details/details.aspx?WebCode=229995&CategoryID=ProVideoCamcorders

[Sean Michael]

My local Canon dealer says the HV20 is available now... That is, his computer inventory shows it being "in stock" at their USA distributor. If what he says is accurate, the camera will be available next week.

[Sean Michael]

The HV20 instruction manual is now available for download. Here's a link (turn off your pop-up blocker to download the PDF):

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=DownloadDetailAct&fcategoryid=326&modelid=14869

[rawfa]

I checked out the manual and it didn't say anything about custom presets...which is something I'm very interested in. I'm not expecting it to have the same image control options the A1 has, but I'm very curious to WHAT image control options it has at all.

[Norbert]

It has one setting for cine color (cine mode). Other than that, you can customize the settings for color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness. However, you can not save presets like you can on the A1/G1/H1.
This is what the manual says about cine mode:

The camcorder adjusts various image settings to give a cinematic look to your recordings.I wonder if that means it just adjusts the color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness settings to achieve that look. That makes me wonder if I will still be able to set the color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness with cine mode activated.

[rawfa]

It has one setting for cine color (cine mode). Other than that, you can customize the settings for color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness. However, you can not save presets like you can on the A1/G1/H1.
This is what the manual says about cine mode:

I wonder if that means it just adjusts the color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness settings to achieve that look. That makes me wonder if I will still be able to set the color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness with cine mode activated.


Very valid question...

[Artscroll]

After looking through the manual, this cam gives me the feel that it is very "consumerish". I wish Canon had something between the A1 and HV20.

[TimurCivan]

It has one setting for cine color (cine mode). Other than that, you can customize the settings for color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness. However, you can not save presets like you can on the A1/G1/H1.
This is what the manual says about cine mode:

I wonder if that means it just adjusts the color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness settings to achieve that look. That makes me wonder if I will still be able to set the color depth, brightness, contrast and sharpness with cine mode activated.



ive seeen grabs iof its "cinelook" mode. it actually looks wonderful.

[Kholi]

I think you guys are missing the fact that this IS a Consumer camera, and is not aimed at the likes of the A1 crowd. You want something more, go for an A1. If you can't afford it, be happy with what you can now afford for 1200 dollars or less.

So the HV20 is going to be available BEFORE April huh? I guess I need to decide between this or a 35mm Adapter. WEE HAA

[Norbert]

I know it's a consumer camera but that doesn't mean it would hurt to know exactly what the camera is doing when cine mode is activated, if gain is added when you crank up the exposure, etc. Knowing your camera is the key to better images.

I think it's image quality looks anything but consumerish so I am fully convinced that an HV20 + 35mm adapter can give some stunning results for that kind of money.

An internet store here in Sweden called Dustin Home claims that they will be able to deliver the HV20 on the 12th of March, which is 11 days from now. I hope they can, but I doubt it.

[TimurCivan]

im just worried ou wont have good manual focus, and manual gain options.

[Kholi]

I was actually referring to the guy that decided that it was too consumerish for a consumer camera.

I agree. An HV20 + 35mm Adapter is probably going to be more than acceptable.

[Norbert]

Kholi: Right... I knew that. :D

TimurCivan: I'm not too worried about the manual focus since I would probably use an adapter. If you are not planning on using an adapter though, I agree the focus control looks not so good. I think most people that are going to use this camera will not even bother with manual focus.

The gain control however is the big problem. I read somewhere that you can turn the gain OFF on the HV20 but apparently it still adds gain if you set the exposure high enough. I wonder if there is any way to find out exactly where the camera starts to add gain. Again, this is something that won't bother most people, but I'm not most people.

[Emanuel]

The gain control however is the big problem. I read somewhere that you can turn the gain OFF on the HV20 but apparently it still adds gain if you set the exposure high enough. I wonder if there is any way to find out exactly where the camera starts to add gain. Again, this is something that won't bother most people, but I'm not most people.Here is your quote:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=860769#post860769

[Sean Michael]

Cancel red alert... I spoke with my local Canon guy this afternoon, and now (after speaking with his supplier) he says the HV20 is NOT in stock, and will ship "in late March." .. maybe a week or so early, but not next week. Sorry for creating any confusion.

On a brighter note, he quoted me a price of $925 (plus 3.5% machine tax). Not bad for 1080p 24p. :thumbsup:

[Keegs]

will the hv 20 have the same sequence settings in the nle as the xh-a1, both in their 24p and 24f respective settings, such as final cut?

also, is this true progrssive due to the cmos? will it actually have "better"resolution than the 1080i of the xh series?

thanks and sorry if these have already been asked. couldnt find direct answers though.

[GlimmerGhost]

On a brighter note, he quoted me a price of $925 (plus 3.5% machine tax). Not bad for 1080p 24p. :thumbsup:

Holy crap $925? Ummm, can i get his number? I was gonna preorder on amazon but that's almost a $200 difference from the msrp!

Hey Barry, earlier in this thread you said something about the HV20 being easier to edit on Vegas than on FCP (or something to that effect), would you be able to elaborate? I'm an FCP user and it would freak me out to buy this cam and then not be able to edit it the way it's supposed to look with 24p.
Thanks in advance
Glim

[Sean Michael]

I will PM you the details. The shop is a local professional-oriented firm and they don't sell too many consumer products. I made a 25% down payment yesterday to lock in the price.

I'd like to find a good 43mm thread wide-angle lens for the HV20, also.

Of course, with the M2 attached, it won't be an issue. I'm experimenting now with a Sony HC3 and the M2. There's a fair bit of noise in the resulting image (alas, a hallmark of the Sony in light-challenged environments). One suspects the HV20 will perform this task better than the HC3.

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/5525/1173358425.jpg

[AuditoryVisuals]

Hey Barry, earlier in this thread you said something about the HV20 being easier to edit on Vegas than on FCP (or something to that effect), would you be able to elaborate?

I'm not Barry, but I think it's becuase the update for Vegas 7 features 2:3 pulldown removal for HDV. Sony added this feature for the HVR-V1U which shoots 24p in HDV with a 2:3 pulldown, and is virtually the same format the 24p is in from the HV20. FCP doesn't have this feature yet. Am I right Barry?

[AuditoryVisuals]

There's a fair bit of noise in the resulting image (alas, a hallmark of the Sony in light-challenged environments).

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/5525/1173358425.jpg

You're not saying the noise was caused by the M2 not letting enough light in and resorting to gain to brighten the image, are you? Why would this be? Shouldn't a larger lens focus more light on the sensor?

I've seen footage from the HC3 before and in low light situations, it's pretty noisy.

[Sean Michael]

You're not saying the noise was caused by the M2 not letting enough light in and resorting to gain to brighten the image, are you? Why would this be? Shouldn't a larger lens focus more light on the sensor?

I've seen footage from the HC3 before and in low light situations, it's pretty noisy.

Yeah, the HC3 image suffers a lot of noise in low light situations. I just noticed some noise in test shots that was unexpected, but this may have been due to a less-than-ideal mount to the M2. Since the M2 is designed to accomodate prosumer cameras like the DVX, it will take a little trial and error to mount a smaller camera like an HC3 or HV20. So far I've used copious amounts of gaffers tape. :laugh:

The upside of mounting a small camera to the M2 is mobility. I mounted the combo on a DVRigPro yesterday and it handled fine (although it probably looked a little strange).

[Kholi]

Nice looking M2 rig, dude.

Can't wait to see what the HV20 looks like paired with one. Edit: Sean you got any footage from your HC3 adventure?

[Barry_Green]

I'm not Barry, but I think it's becuase the update for Vegas 7 features 2:3 pulldown removal for HDV. Sony added this feature for the HVR-V1U which shoots 24p in HDV with a 2:3 pulldown, and is virtually the same format the 24p is in from the HV20. FCP doesn't have this feature yet. Am I right Barry?
Exactly.

[rawfa]

Nice looking M2 rig, dude.

Can't wait to see what the HV20 looks like paired with one. Edit: Sean you got any footage from your HC3 adventure?

If you go to the Redrock forum they have some M2+HV10 footage there...which should give more or less a general idea of what the HV20 should look like with the M2...hum...actually, I don't know about that. The HV20 is progressive and it has a cinema preset...the results might be quiet nice.

[Elton]

I'm wondering about the HDV 2:3 pulldown removal in Vegas. Wouldn't it require recompressing to HDV due to the GOP structure, or at least capturing on the fly to an intermediate codec like CineForm?

[GlimmerGhost]

FCP doesn't have this feature yet.

Yikes! Do you think FCP will get around to getting this? I mean how will this affect the footage when editing? And is there anyway around it short of buying Vegas?

... hmmmm, how am I gonna explain this to the wife?:Drogar-BlackEye(DBG
and the real question, will she really even care?

Thanks in advance guys,
Glim

[DChang]

Yikes! Do you think FCP will get around to getting this? I mean how will this affect the footage when editing? And is there anyway around it short of buying Vegas?

Apple is supposedly set to release FCP 6 at NAB in April so we'll find out next month, I hope.

[GlimmerGhost]

Hey so if I dont want to edit natively, whats the recommended software for converting hdv into a manageable codec that I could edit in FCP?

[AuditoryVisuals]

You can always edit in FCP, you just can't remove the pull down. If you shoot 24p, it is recorded with a 2:3 pull down but within a 60i stream. So, if your version of FCP supports HDV 1080i60, you will be able to edit natively.

[Sean Michael]

Sean you got any footage from your HC3 adventure?

Kholi, I've shot a few things, but nothing really worth your time. I will try to pull together some footage this weekend.

[Kholi]

Sounds good. Thanks dude.

[GlimmerGhost]

You can always edit in FCP, you just can't remove the pull down. If you shoot 24p, it is recorded with a 2:3 pull down but within a 60i stream. So, if your version of FCP supports HDV 1080i60, you will be able to edit natively.

Oh crap I got it, I got it now... boy do I feel dumb, I must have missed the part about pulldown, I thought FCP couldn't edit native HDV and I was goin nuts over here, but the discussion was about removing the 2:3, sorry about that AV still your help was invaluable.
Anyway, as you said, there is still the upgrade to FCP 6 to look forward to:dankk2:
</IMG>

[Bruce Morgan]

Barry
does that mean this camera is faking some or part of its hi def image recording compared to the HVX?
Thank for a reply
Bruce

[Barry_Green]

Barry
does that mean this camera is faking some or part of its hi def image recording compared to the HVX?
Thank for a reply
Bruce
No, why would you think that?

2:3 pulldown is a valid method to use; the HVX and DVX can both do it as well. The only thing is that it makes it a tad more difficult on the editing system to reverse that, which is why 2:3:3:2 (aka 24pA) pulldown was invented. 24pA is superior for editing, but Vegas and EDIUS can both deal with 2:3 pulldown. FCP apparently can't yet (from HDV footage, or from HVX 1080 footage).

[Kholi]

Barry, what do ya mean about that FCP can't deal with 108024pA? Just wanting to clarify, as I can capture directly into FCP 108024pA and edit it just fine. I tried it yesterday.

Am I missing something?

[Barry_Green]

FCP does 1080/24pA, but it doesn't do 1080/24p (2:3 pulldown) as far as I know. I'd be glad to find out I was wrong, so let me know if that's the case.

[Kholi]

Ah! Okay I see what you're saying now. Sorry my misunderstanding.

[TimurCivan]

you know i just realised im completely and utterly spolied by vegas.

[Drew Ott]

you know i just realised im completely and utterly spolied by vegas.

Same here. I have never had a problem dealing with frame rates.

[Sean Michael]

Okay, here are a few shots with the HC3 and Redrock M2 in the WMV format. Not totally thrilled with the compression (having a few issues with Premiere 1.51 and HDV), but I will keep tinkering with it.

http://www.lostspyder.com/RedrockM2andSonyHC3-Test.wmv

The upshot from this experiment is that I expect the HV20 to work quite well with 35mm adapters. :thumbsup:

[jenningsp]

the HV20 has a 1/2.7 inch chip and a f/1.8 lens...
the HVX200 has a 1/3 inch chip and a f/2.8 lens...

does this mean that the HV20 will have almost half the depth of field as the HVX200?
it's got a larger chip (almost a millimeter larger!!!) and a wider lens. i hope I'm right.

[TimurCivan]

the HVX has a F1.6 lens. its 2.8 when youre Zoomed all the way in to 55mm.

Though, theoretically yes it will have a shallower DOF just because of the lenses.

[jenningsp]

it can also shoot "true 16x9" SD 480p at 60fps, 48fps and 24fps


well actualy 960x540p at 60fps = 1080 60i HDV
and the 48fps in 24p mode. if you think about it all the 60i HDV cameras can shoot 480p

[Barry_Green]

Depends on the focal length of the lens, and the field of view. The HVX has a max. zoom of 55mm, the HV20 has 61mm. With the slightly larger chip that means that the image size will probably be about the same size at full zoom and equal distance, meaning probably 10% shallower depth of field on the HV20.

You're talking about a chip size difference of only 10%, and a zoom reach difference of only 10%, so don't expect a noticeable difference in DOF. However, if that zoom were to be a constant 1.8 instead of variable, then that could end up contributing to a shallower DOF potential on the HV20. Is the HV10's lens a constant 1.8?

[Gordon Prince]

But with a tele-extender, there will be more shallow DOF, correct?

[Barry_Green]

Maybe; depends on whether the extender causes a light loss (lower effective aperture). If no light loss, and you have adequate room to back up and use the longer effective focal length, then yes you should be able to get the illusion of shallower DOF by using a teleconverter.

[Barry_Green]

Actually, reading through the HV20 instruction manual answers the question about the lens. It's f/1.8 on the wide end, and f/3.0 at full tele.

[Artscroll]

Here's a link I have not seen before
http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/spec.html
and a link to the Japanese version of the manual http://www.canon-sales.co.jp/manual/dvcamera/pdf/hv20.pdf

What does iVIS mean? It only appears on the Japanese version.

[Artscroll]

Japanese HV20's available now on the world's biggest auction site. Looks like you can set the menu to ENGLISH. I'm waiting till April.

[Noel Evans]

What does iVIS mean? It only appears on the Japanese version.

Its just the name for the range of consumer cams. Like Canon names its printers pixus (in Japan) pixma in the rest of the world. Hmm wonder if I can pick one of these up before I head to LA.

[Artscroll]

Thanks for letting me know what iVIS meant. I was completely in the dark.

[dahlstrom]

Is this the future :D
It'nt the best picture but it gives me dreams :D

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/19742/1174247428.jpg

Opinions?

[TimurCivan]

Opinion..... Sweet.


I wonder if the 2:3 pulldown, will mean that the HDV compression algorythym will be less taxed, cause most of the frames are "staticish"?

[ecking]

Is this the future :D
It'nt the best picture but it gives me dreams :D


Opinions?

You didn't budget for lenses and you should definetly get a follow focus, even if it's a indifocus.

[AuditoryVisuals]

No lights?