P2 vs FS-100

[Gnuyen]

I was wondering, what are your thoughts on the better investment for indie filmmaking

2 P2 8GB cards or an FS-100?

With the P2 cards, between shots you have to dump, with the FS-100 you can transfer inbetween setups.

[Luis Caffesse]

I'm dealing with this same question right now - having just bought an HVX, and having to buy either the cards or the FS-100 next week.

Here are my thoughts - if you're looking to buy before the end of March -

1) You get a free 8gb card with the camera right now. Granted - you get it 4 to 6 weeks after you register for the rebate - but it's a free card.

2) There is a pretty good chance that we're going to see 16Gb cards at NAB this year (just my guess - based on nothing other than the current rebate and the time since the last P2 card announcement).

3) Focus is on the edge of releasing upgraded firmware for the FS-100 which will allow recording of native 24P footage - incresing the recording time for 720P/24 footage on teh 100GB drive by 2.5 times.

Given all those points - I'm personally leaning towards getting the FS-100 right now.
It is less money overall - it is about to be improved - and I think it may retain its value a little better in the short term. If you buy a new camera, you'll have an 8gb card for those situations in which you can't use the drive for whatever reason.

Granted - the drive is cumbersome and not nearly as seamless and elegant to use as the P2 cards...
but, that's my 2 cents for now.

If we see 16GB cards in April (which could mean they won't be available to buy until the fall) - I'll definitely get a couple as soon as they're out (depending on price).

so it all depends on when you need to shoot - and what you want to spend.

[DCSensui]

I started off with an FS-100 but had two incidents in which it wouldn't start recording on command. And also wouldn't stop recording on command. The first is worse than the second condition.

I also shot some aerials and somehow the FS-100 ended up failing to record almost anything. The flight was 3/4 of the way over when I realized this and switched over to the P2 cards I had in the bag. It looks like the FS-100 didn't like the vibration from the helicopter whereas the solid state P2 cards weren't the slightest bit affected.

If you absolutelly must have a shot, and there's no "take two", then go for the P2 cards. If you're in a situation where you need very long record times and have the option of shutting down and re-starting everything, then the FS-100 is a good option.

The other problem I ran into: The FS-100 interfered with my wireless mics. Could be the mic receivers as they were placed adjacent to the FS-100 on my shoulder mount. But when one is doing run-and-gun, there's not too many places you can stick hardware like that without making the entire package unweildy.

[BenB]

I've put my FS-100 through some very adverse conditions, never had a problem. There were glitches in the first version or two of the firmware, but those have all be fixed in updates since then.

I've not noticed any problems with ours, and we shoot from boats a lot, lots of vibrations, lots of hard bounces, lots of mist and wetness, very hot south Louisiana, very cold on the water in the wind, never had a problem.

Depends on what your specific situations is. Neither is 100% ideal for 100% of shooting situations. You just have to figure out what works for you.

I'm doing a long term project where I have to get interviews with isolated folks. Folks I have to do a LOT to get interviews from. I have major restrictions. Once we hit record, we can't touch anything. We set up, hit record, they come in and do the interview, they leave, we pack up. These interviews range from half an hour to two hours. If it weren't for the FS-100, the HVX would physically not be able to do this work for us.

So, depends on what you're doing. I'm wondering what firmware version Dean had on his unit that gave him the problems not recording. I haven't heard of that problem since the first or second firmware update.

[janusz]

the firestore will span clips (meaning if you shoot 4 takes of coverage for a scene, the firestore might span all 4 takes into one clip) this isn't a problem really, unless that spanned clip gets corrupted and cannot be imported. this happened to me twice with teh firestore, and i lost two FULL scenes, because the coverage spanned to one clip, and of course only those two spanned clips were corrupted upon import. i had to reshoot, to p2 cards.

this never happened with the p2.

[BenB]

the firestore will span clips (meaning if you shoot 4 takes of coverage for a scene, the firestore might span all 4 takes into one clip) this isn't a problem really, unless that spanned clip gets corrupted and cannot be imported. this happened to me twice with teh firestore, and i lost two FULL scenes, because the coverage spanned to one clip, and of course only those two spanned clips were corrupted upon import. i had to reshoot, to p2 cards.

this never happened with the p2.
The Firestore does NOT span clips. Clip spanning is done in the FCP P2 Import window. But the FS-100 itself has no way to span clips internally. If you use P2 Log with a clip FCP has a problem with 9 out of 10 times it'll import. FCP reports clips as corrupted that really aren't. Part of the OS X P2 bug. See this post:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=85579

But no, the Firestore does not in any way span clips itself. Clip spanning does not span different takes, either. P2 format is FAT32 based, thus has file size limits. The FS-100 records P2 clips up to 2 minutes and something like 19 seconds each. If you do a single shot that's longer than that, it's broken up into several smaller clips. FCP's P2 Import window now includes the ability to see that these all go together and will span them. But the Firestore has no such capability. In fact, I had a discussion about this a month ago with Matt, product manger for the FS-100.

[Granville]

If I were to purchase a Firestore 40gig (for HVX) now would I be able to get an upgrade to be able to record in native format? By the way, can someone explain the difference b/t the way it works now and what it means to record in native format?

[Luis Caffesse]

If I were to purchase a Firestore 40gig (for HVX) ...


The only Firestore made to work with the HVX (for DVCProHD) is the FS-100, which has 100GB internal drive.

[BenB]

If I were to purchase a Firestore 40gig (for HVX) now would I be able to get an upgrade to be able to record in native format? By the way, can someone explain the difference b/t the way it works now and what it means to record in native format?

There is no FS-100 40 gig for the HVX. The FS-100 only comes with a 100 Gig hard drive. The upgrade is firmware will install easily on any FS-100 reguardless of when you bought it.

Native mode, in a nut shell, means that if I'm recording in 720p24, I don't get the nomral 30fps to match the normal NTSC stream Panasonic sends down the Firewire cable. I can record only the 24fps that I actually need. Thus, you don't have to use the advance pulldown removal anymore. Plus you can fit more footage on your P2 card or DTE device.

[Granville]

Thank You Ben & Luis . . . I can't afford the 100 gig firestore. . . How does the citiDISK compare in features and reliability?

[BenB]

I've not actually used one. They were supposed to send us one to review at Event DV magazine, but we just don't ever hear back from them. There's not many folks who like it. I guess it works ok, but lacks a ton of useful features. I'd do a search for citidisk on these forums. There are several discussions about it. Not many good comments.

[Luis Caffesse]

For what it's worth, I just picked up my FS-100 today.
After I have some time to run it through its paces, I'll let you know whether or not I regret the purchase.

What's your window for buying?
I went with the FS-100 because I literally needed something this week.

[nsoltz]

As I had said in another thread, I have seen the CitiDisk once and it did seem to work. It is not a smooth as the FS-100, does not record MXF, required some gyrations to work with FCP. At this point, I would just stay clear of it unless we hear of a solid track record with a number of users.

Ned Soltz

[jpbankesmercer]

I'm deciding on the same issue, so I'll keep watching. We don't get the free P2 card over here in the U.K. you guys have all the luck!!!

[Sumfun]

I don't own any P-2 cards, and I shoot everything with FS-100. I do mostly run and gun work, so I needed the longer record time. So far it's worked well. There were a few times when it wouldn't record, but that was just a matter of the cable being loose. I've used it on a ski boat just fine. I've dropped it from about 2 ft. and it survived. One thing you have to do is make sure that record icon is flashing when you're recording because there's no tape or P2 backup.

I did have a vibration problem with the FS4 and DVX100, and that was on an airboat. It wouldn't stop recording, so I had to remove the battery to reset. Worked fine afterwards.

[Kayvon Saremi]

The firestore also can't record in 720pn so that means no 60fps slowmotion. an alternative to the firestore is the P2 store. a portable harddrive you can transfer your 8gig p2 cards to in about 5-6 minutes or so. ther come in handy quite often unless you need to constantly shoot some things.

Kayvon

[BenB]

The firestore also can't record in 720pn so that means no 60fps slowmotion.

WONG! Biggest myth about the FS-100! We settled this months ago, kids!

I do alternative frame rates all the time on my FS-100. You can in fact do variable frame rates in the non-native HVX modes.

The 3.0 firmware upgrade will also add P2 Native, QuickTime, and QuickTime Native modes to the FS-100.

But for now, you can do over and under cranked footage on the FS-100 for sure! I do it several times a week!

[David Saraceno]

Ben are you saying that you can record 720/60 and then slow it down using the frame rate converter in FCP?

[Barry_Green]

Not slowing it down, but stripping out duplicate frames and conforming the timebase to match. So you can do 12fps, 36fps, 48fps, 22fps, or 60fps. FCP's frame rate converter will give you a net product (from 720/60p "film cam" footage) identical to what you would have gotten had you shot in 720pN mode.

[BenB]

Ben are you saying that you can record 720/60 and then slow it down using the frame rate converter in FCP?
Ok, first, the Frame Rate Covnerter in FCP does not slow anything down. It takes your raw 720p60 clip that you shot with a variable frame rate, and conforms that to the editing base you're using. It strips out the extra frames and reasigns the meta-data fps info. Using the FCP FRC is not the same as using advanced pulldown, and advanced pulldown removal will not give you the "native" frame rate that gives you the over/under cranked effect.

It's just like shooting variable frame rates to a P2 card without using Native mode. The FS-100 gives you the exact same P2 data files a P2 card does, just not in Native mode... yet...

And Native mode is not nessisary to use alternative frame rates on P2 cards, either.

[David Saraceno]

To clarify the procedure:

1. Shoot 720/60 in the FS-100.
2. Import into a 24p sequence.
3. Use the FRC to convert the 60 clip to a 24 clip, which is essence slowing it down.

Correct?

Thanks

[Luis Caffesse]

Use the FRC to convert the 60 clip to a 24 clip, which is essence slowing it down.


It is not slowing anything down - it is removing duplicate frames.
There is a significant difference between those two.

Think of it in the same way that the DVX adds a pulldown to 24p footage in order to lay 29.97 down to tape - the pulldown can then be removed on capture, leaving you with a 24fps file.

The file is not slowed down - instead, the 'duplicate' frames that the camera lays down in order to keep a 60fps stream coming out of the firewire port are stripped out of the clip, leaving you with the original 24 frames per second that the chips in the camera originally captured.



I'm not sure if I'm clarifying anything - or just confusing the issue here.
Hopefully that made some sense.
:thumbsup:

[BenB]

1. Shoot 720/60 in the FS-100.
2. Import into a 24p sequence.
3. Use the FRC to convert the 60 clip to a 24 clip, which is essence slowing it down.
Not qute.

1- Shoot 720p24, use whatever alternative frame rate you need in the Scene File.
2- Import without using the advanced pulldown removal in the FCP P2 Import window.
3- BEFORE placing in a Seqeuence, use the DVCPRO-HD Frame Rate Converter to conform it to the editing time base of your Sequence.
4- Place in Sequence, it'll give you the over/under cranked effect you shot in-camera.

It's the exact same proceedure for a P2 card as it is for the FS-100.

Download and watch my FS100/FCP video listed below.

[Kayvon Saremi]

yeah i read that in the manual but all the better you can cause i love slow motion and i love the firestore

[BenB]

yeah i read that in the manual but all the better you can cause i love slow motion and i love the firestore

I love
Little baby ducks
Things that don't suck
Streaks of good luck
And bears...

[David Saraceno]

Didn't you mean "beers?"

You wrote "bears."

[BenB]

Oh, I so forgot! Thanks for reminding me!

"And sour mash straight Wiskey..."

[Prodigi Pictures]

The only Firestore made to work with the HVX (for DVCProHD) is the FS-100, which has 100GB internal drive.

I'd appreciate clarification on this issue. This link shows that the FS-4 Pro HD supports P2 MXF format.

http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html

- Justin

[THoff]

MXF is just a container format, and the article states that the FS-4 Pro HD supports the DV25 codec in MXF containers.

The FS-4 Pro HD certainly does not support the DVCPro50 or DVCProHD codecs.

[BenB]

I'd appreciate clarification on this issue. This link shows that the FS-4 Pro HD supports P2 MXF format.
Actually that link says nothing about "DVCPRO-HD" nor "P2." The FS-4 will do HDV, but not P2 and not DVCPRO-HD.

It does use the term "FS-4Pro HD", but that's the unit's name, not a recording format.

[David Saraceno]

I'd appreciate clarification on this issue. This link shows that the FS-4 Pro HD supports P2 MXF format.

The top of the page states:

"Weighing about one pound and only 1.5 inches thick, the FS-4 Portable DTE Recorder brings Direct To Edit® Technology to your DV or HDV handheld camcorder."

[Barry_Green]

ONLY the FS-100 supports MXF files. ONLY the FS-100 supports DVCPRO-50 or DVCPRO-HD.

The FS-4 is for DV. The FS-4 HD is for DV & HDV.