XH-A1 v. HVX200 in 3 years

[humdrum]

Reviews of both the A1 and HVX are awesome, as are the sample clips I've seen. There is little about either camera that I don't like. The price savings of the A1 (lower camera price, cheap tapes, no FCP upgrade) has made it the better choice for me. The only hesitation I have left is this: I won't buy another camcorder for many years after this purchase, so I'd rather lock myself into a camera that has the greatest ability to take advantage of advances in industry and technology.

Here's what I mean. One could argue that the worst thing about the A1 is that its capture process uses the oft-criticized HDV compression. That will never change, right? Even if Sony/JVC/Canon improve the compression format itself, it would be too late for A1 owners, correct? We are stuck with the camera's internal compression process. So, editing improvements may make handling HDV easier, or monitoring HDV cheaper, or burning HD DVDs practical, but will they ever be able to "undo" (i.e. "uncompress") what has already been done to my footage by the A1? (I suppose the one caveat is that it may become cheap and practical to off-load uncompressed video using the analog out, right?)

In comparison, the DVCPRO HD format used by the HVX200 is generally considered a better alternative to HDV. The biggest complaint of the HVX(besides the higher camera price) is that the P2 storage is too small and too expensive to allow any serious field or event shooting. However, whereas time will not cure the HDV format problem for the A1, it will certainly ease the P2 problem. Prices will come down and storage space will go up. In a year, 32gb and 64gb cards will sell for - well, who knows. Maybe as cheap as the 8gb cards today?

And just to be clear, this isn't about avoiding obsolescence. This is about choosing between levels of built-in obsolescense and trying to assess a product's ability to expand with and take advantage of technological advances.

Anyway, that's my latest (and hopefully last) ponderance before I move towards a purchase. As always, any thoughts are welcome, (especially if they help me justify the A1 purchase!)

[DammitJanet]

Hmmm, this is a more tasteful thread than the title let on.

I'd hate to try to push you toward the A1 since I've never used the HVX, but I'm extremely pleased with ours. I guess the way I would look at it is this. If using P2 would be such a hassle (and that's certainly the way I view the technology at this point) then consider how much more footage you will have shot in the next three years using HDV tapes. I hope you see what I mean there. I mean, how much footage can you shoot on tape in the three years you'd be waiting for P2 prices to drop and capacities to increase? If it were me, I'd want to be shooting as soon as possible. I'm sure P2 is very easy to get used to, but with HDV it's a tried and true system that you're probably already very familiar with.

And if you have any doubts about the way your footage will look, just run the A1's component out to an HDTV. I'm honestly blown away every time I see our footage regardless, but on an HDTV, one could call it...heavenly. I mean, I'm certainly no expert here, but I try not to buy into all the buzz word hubbub (including UNCOMPRESSED). I'm not even entirely sure what project is so important that you'd need uncompressed material for. All I know is that the finished product I get with my A1 looks f**king amazing no matter what the format and I know that it always will. I'm happy with that. (In fact, if you need convincing check out my "Return of the Living Night Footage! (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=83883)" thread.)

That said, as for your concern about advancing technology I think you have to keep in mind that either way you'll be making an investment in what the camera can do; not what it someday might do. Think of it like buying a computer. You're investing in the features that are the best you can get at the time. A few years from now, yes, your cpu or video card might not be the fastest on the market, but it's still going to be totally viable for your needs. Though with a computer you could probably upgrade individual parts, but I digress.

I don't think the compression of the A1 can be changed, but I didn't design the camera. If it were possible I would assume it would be done with some kind of firmware upgrade, but that's really a question for someone like Barry.

Ultimately, I think the best way to decide is to look at the features that you want the most, and what you can afford. In my own case, as soon as I saw the A1 I was sold. I never thought I'd see an HD camera with 16:9 and 24F at that price point, and it just happened. After seeing the price of the HVX I thought I'd be shooting on a borrowed DVX for a few more years (not that there's anything wrong with it!), but my partner and I lucked out and thanks to Canon we got a camera with every feature we care about (and more) at a price that allowed us to spend the extra money on a very nice mattebox, tripod, boom, mic and all the other necessities.

Sorry to drag on for so long like this. I hope this helps! Best of luck on your purchase!

[Jason Ramsey]

You pretty much have said it for yourself.

My opinion:
HDV, and tape in general, are on their way out. Tapeless acquisition and workflow will be the norm.

The main gripe folks have about p2 you have already mentioned. In terms of future proofing, you said it. P2 cards will get bigger and cheaper, and that gripe about record time will go away.

In the interim, there are options available: The firestore, and the upcoming Cineporter, are the two worth mentioning if you need longer record times right now.

Improved color space of the DVCPRO HD codec. You have to go a LOT higher in price to get something that will offer a better color space (i.e. 4:4:4).

Yes, HDV is more demanding on your system. That will improve as systems get more powerful. It's not going to bog down a good system, but you may find difficulty editing it on an "average" machine.

DVCPRO HD is not near as demanding on your system. You can edit it today in realtime on a less-than-average machine (with the proper NLE).

Now, this is all just my opinion, and preference. I happen to prefer the tapeless workflow, and am willing to accept possible short-term shortcomings, in exchange for a faster, more efficient, and better long-term workflow.

Others see it the other way around.

Whichever camera you choose, will last you fine. It will still make as purty of images 3 years from now, as it will the first day you try it out (probably better since you'll know it in and out:) ). The only difference is that there will be something better out. You can't avoid that.

I think that either camera will last you.

I do happen to think, though, that one concrete thing is that tapeless acquisition is the next logical step. Doesn't mean p2 acquisition is going to be the norm. Just that tapeless will be.

But when that happens, you will still be able to buy your tapes, and I will still be able to use my p2 cards.

A little longwinded, but hopefuly that helps.

[Matt Sconce]

Recording lengthy takes with the HVX should not be a problem with this coming out this summer.
http://www.spec-comm.com/cineporter.php
You could store 14 hrs of 720 24pn footage on it before having to offload. Can any other camera boast this? 160gb hard drive that can be upgraded to 320gb, and Raid. Uses the P2 slots for native recording, and you can edit off of it if you want to. I believe the future is not HDV, and although the A1 rocks, in three years I believe you will wish you had gone a little bigger with the HVX. You will then have DVCProHD, Variable Framerates and insane record times. Excellent!

[philnerd]

Here's the shakedown as I see it:

First let me state that I think the HVX is the best sub 10K cam on the market. I wanted one (well, technically I still want one), but just couldn't afford it.

Now;
If you need a camera soon for event or long form work and are on a limited budget, the workarounds for long takes/event videography for the HVX make it quite expensive. The HVX and a Firestore is right around 7K. That's litterally twice the cost of the XH A1. So when HVX owners point out that long form recording is availalbe; yes that's understood. But that's like curing someone's slow Civic LX problem by telling them to buy an S2000.

You can get into an XH A1 now for very little money, then add a firestore later for extended shooting and tapeless workflow. I think P2 is great, but HDV and DV camcorders can certainly go to tapeless aquisition. Actually, I like the idea of the firestore for recording and importing into my NLE, and recording to tape and storing as backup.

The oft criticized HDV is actually not very criticized, and most of the poo pooing of the format comes from a small but vocal group that may not even have worked with it. This is especially true of Canon's HDV real-time encoder. Its awesome. I've shot 24F footage of fountains shooting water into the air and then raining into a surrounding lake; no artifacts. Whip pans: no artifacts. People shooting flash photos: no artifacts. Honestly, I was TRYING to get artifacts to see what the limit of Canon's 24F was. This is not like the so-so HDV of the first generation products from a couple of years ago.

The other issue is that the XH A1's HDV and the HVX's DVCPROHD are just going to look pretty much the same on screen. The 1/3" CCDs and camera guts are very similar, and the codecs just aren't enough to push one camera way ahead.

Speaking of codecs, DVCPROHD will be supplanted by 10bit AVCHD Intraframe compression fairly soon. 100mbs AVCHD with 10bit color will blow DVCPROHD and HDV out of the water. So three years from now you'll probably be able to buy an HVX successor that shoots variable 1080P frame rates, probably has better resolution and will include a brand new cutting edge codec. The current HVX, XH A1 and every other "cheap" HD cam available right now will look pretty much equally old then.

Look, if the money is there, the HVX with a Firestore and a couple of P2 cards is an incredible video camera. No doubt.

If you want an HVX but don't have the money, then Canon's XH A1 will have you covered.

And the bottom line is this: If you can't create a quality project with the XH A1, would a better cam have made the difference? These cams are all so great that if your content is top notch, the cam will step up to the job. I think Nick Hiltgen (not sure if he's on this board) has 5 screenings at Sundance for a film he photographed with his Canon XL H1 on HDV. The technology will get better, but we've reached the point where its tipped over the edge to become completely usable without excuses. So even when that new 10bit wunder cam is available in 3 years, will it really make someone's script/movie/wedding that much better?

[KyleProhaska]

The price is what turned me off the to the HVX. Not that if I had the money I wouldn't get it, but saving up for that kind of camera doesn't seem very smart to me. Ill have close to $4000 in a couple weeks so to save another 1100 before even getting myself a good mic and other things just doesn't seem right. Even if P2 goes down, unloading it (a laptop for the field) is also something I dont possess so thats another chunk of cash I dont have. Sure there are other options but by the time I have enough for just the HVX with one P2 card (I doubt ide make the deadline), a good pair of sticks, a good mic, etc. it would be summer and I want to get to work as soon as I can. The A1 is not only the smart financial choice, but its really the only probable choice if I want to aquire anything anytime soon.

Good points though, but by the time everything is so streamlined, I doubt ill have the A1 any longer. I think buying an A1 now for my own personnel use and small business stuff and just dealing with the A1's faults will be just fine until the HVX price goes down.

- Kyle

[Barry_Green]

Are you buying this as a personal camcorder, or as a business tool? For personal, yes I can see hanging tight for three years. As a business tool, it should pay itself off in the first couple of months, after that it's all gravy, so if something better comes along just sell & upgrade.

No you can't upgrade the compression system in either; what you get is pretty much what you'll have. Even though the P2 recording system would allow for easy upgrading, the camera itself isn't really designed to take advantage of that (as in, look at the HPX2000 -- you can just add a codec card and get a new recording format, AVC-Intra; the HVX doesn't have the ability to take cards like that). And with the XHA1, even if it were possible to add new codec hardware, it still couldn't happen because it records to tape and the parameters of the tape are set already.

Three years from now on the HVX you'll have 128GB cards and you'll be able to hold 10 hours of footage in-camera at once. When people complain about short recording times, they'll be complaining about the 60-minute limit of a tape at that point! :thumbsup:

You'll also be able to edit that footage immediately. Plug the card right into your computer, drag the files to the timeline, and edit. No need to "offload", no need to transfer to a hard disk, no capturing, no digitizing, no waiting, no anything. Just plug in and edit, handling six streams of HD footage in realtime right from the card. The P2 workflow of a couple of years from now is going to be absolutely night-and-day different from the workarounds we employ today. Actually I think this facet will begin to happen as soon as 32GB cards start arriving, and that might be as little as a year away.

Then again, we could easily be on an HVX300 and XHA2 by two or three years from now.

I think you're correct in thinking that the HVX is going to become much more powerful (workflow-wise) as technology catches up. But what you need to consider is what you're buying it for, and what it can do for you today. Get whichever system suits your needs today. These cameras are so cheap that if you're putting it to work you should be able to pay it off very quickly, and then sell it on ebay when it's time to upgrade to "the next big thing." And if you don't have a need for it today, why buy today? Don't buy today thinking that "if I don't get it now I'll miss out" or something; there's only going to be bigger/better/cheaper things coming, that's how electronics manufacturers work. Whatever we get three years from now, you can bet it'll be faster, cheaper, more capable, and overall "better" than what we can buy today.

Get what you need today. If you don't need it today, don't buy it today, buy it when you need it. And when you do need it, get the best you can, that does what you need.

[humdrum]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. This really is an educated, friendly board - especially compared to most.

Unfortunately, the replies mirror my internal ping-pong: A1 is a stellar choice which produces great footage so just go for it. HVX is a bit more expensive but well worth it especially long-term so don't be pennywise and pound-foolish.

While I may have a business use one day, I expect I will mostly be shooting home movies and creative projects, both of which I want to approach with a "film-maker/story-teller" attitude. I may be a hobbyist, but I'd like to be a serious hobbyist. Stepping up to the A1 (or the HVX, of course) would be like entering the big leagues for me. I'll need a new tripod (hear Libec makes a great one); a new mic, and a basic lighting kit. And maybe a script. (Working on it).

So, can I wait a year? Maybe, but there is the new baby, who would rather I capture him in HDV then in TRV900 mini-DV (or would so indicate if he could speak.)

Also, there's this: I don't wanna wait. Gimme. Gimme. I want. I want. I need. I need. Gimme.


And one last point: I enjoy this process. I like making informed decisions, not just because I avoid buyer's remorse (as best I can), but also because it is a period during which I have lots of enthusiasm and stamina to educate myself on the product. Thanks to pros like y'all.

So, it may take a few more posts before I pull the trigger, but the gun feels warm and soothing in my hand.

[Stu Siegal]

Three years is an eternity. Three years ago, there was no HVX, no A1, and no dvx100B. I have great respect for buyer's remorse, suffer from it chronically, but I think you're over-analyzing this one - it's a win-win. Now's a great time to jump in, you won't be sorry in a couple of months. Whatever you get, enjoy.

[brianluce]

Just get the damn A1. Stop torturing yourself. Take the money savings and go to Jamaica and hang out with some hot reggae chick on the beach and ride jet skis all day. You can't go wrong.

You're playing the "What if" game.

ps while in Jamaica, take some HDV bikini footage of the hot reggae chick and post it here for analysis. I'll be happy to assist with that...

[humdrum]

Like I said, it's not torture. I like the process and the "whaf if" game.

But your points are taken.

And if you're saying that the only way I'll know for sure is by shooting some Jamacain bikini footage (and I think that's what you're saying), then I guess I have no choice . . .

[xray]

Hey I want to buy a computer that remains working the rest of my life. HDV? Sony brought 2 new cams, JVS two new cams, Canon 2 new cams, all HDV. There are more new HDV cams on the market today than DVCpro cams.

If I lock myself up, don't touch the internet, and make a copy and some spare parts, my computer today is working for the next 20 years. My computer is future proof. But I know I 'm buying a new one on the moment I think it's faster better and more compatible with the world outside.

During your life, you build a graveyard on old technology. I have an Uher 'reporter' stereo taperecorder on batteries, anyone?

[humdrum]

Amusing little rant. Doesn't really apply to my original post, though. I wasn't looking to avoid obsolescence, just purchase the camera that made the most sense in light of anticipated advances. I think I was pretty clear about that.

Good point about the manufacturers' support for HDV though. It sure doesn't look like that format is going anywhere soon.

[t-h-e-w-h-o]

Here is my personal rule with "prosumer" cams.

Buy a cam, keep it for 1 year and if theres something better sell it. also, if you think something better is coming sell it. Every single cam i have gotten i have sold on craigslist when better stuff came out and i still made almost all my money back.

Just stay current.

[scannon]

If you want a camera with the HD/HDV level of image but are not really shooting as a business consider the Canon HV10 for $959 at B&H. It shoots 1080i and with DV Film you can convert to 1080 24p for film like motion and add film like looks in you NLE if that's needed. If you like it will be a great capture/edit deck for the A1.

But seriously the issue of HDV versus DVCPRO HD is not worth worring about and in three years we will be seeing additional codecs and tapless storage options. The A1 (or HV10) will have given you the tools to learn with.

I do shoot as a business and a year and a half ago I purchased two DVX 100b's each was paid for completely in my budgets for three different shoots, within 6 months of their purchase. I will use them until they fall apart where they fit the client's needs. But now I am looking at HD/HDV and will invest in a Canon A1 near term that I will budget into an upcoming project.

Down the road I see the HVX or its second generation in my future but I can make money with the Canon today and it makes sense to use it because I won't need the features of the HVX now.

Get the camera and go make movies.

Good shooting

S Cannon

[Jay Rodriguez]

honestly, I don't think the HVX or A1 will be as powerful in popularity as they are today. I think they'll be the choice tools but I'm sure around that time frame rumors of something better will be floating around and the topics will be something like: "should I get an HVX, A1 or the soon to be released RED HVX/A1 slayer?"