A1 - mpeg2 compression - quality?

[stefan_koler]

Servus

I'm thinking about getting myself an A1, because everything I have heard, seen and read about it so far was quite impressiv. It seems to be the perfect camera for me, as I'm going to shoot scenic stuff (TV-series, video clips etc) as well as some non-ficition (tourism, etc) and news-related content. The only thing that really bothers me is the poor mpeg2 compression, in other words: HDV. Most of the test-footage I could find here and elsewhere containted comparatively "static" pictures, without fast camera- or image-movements. So, I'm asking you: Did you ever have problems due to compression or is this just a myth told by frustrated FX1 owners?

I've got about 3600€ (about 4700$ - yeah it's quite expensive here in Europe - at least at those shops I could find, minimum 3200€ = 4100$) - so I suppose HDV is the only way out. Is there any other camera that I should consider? I was thinking about the Panasonic HVX200, which offers DVCproHD, but which is also quite expensive and - supposably- I would have to get myself a new computer as well, as DVCproHD requires far more capacity than HDV does!?

Best regards from Austria
S

[MovieSwede]

Actually HDV demand more of your computer then DVCPROHD does. DVCPROHD demands more storage space.

[Barry_Green]

HDV is much more processor-intensive, DVCPRO-HD is more (to much-more) space-intensive (between 2 and 5 times as much space depending on resolution and frame rate).

[stefan_koler]

Well then... is DVCPROHD that much better than HDV?

[philnerd]

I've taped rippling water, fountains, whip pans and even some photo flashes (a death blow to some HDV cams) in 24F. Not an artifact in sight.

Actually, the biggest limitation is probably the 8bit color, but that's a problem in all DV, HDV and current DVCPRO cams. I think Panasonic's intra-AVCHD codec might be 10bit, which will be awesome.

Anyway, the Canon real-time MPEG2 encoder is leaps and bounds better than the Z1/FX1 encoder.

[Barry_Green]

Yes it's a better format, it's frame-discrete compression with twice the color sampling. When Canon made the "watchmaker" footage to demonstrate how good their XLH1 was, they didn't record it on HDV, they recorded it through HD-SDI onto a DVCPRO-HD deck.

Now, the bigger question is: is DVCPRO-HD footage from a 1/3" camcorder that much better than HDV footage from a 1/3" camcorder? In most circumstances, no, they're quite comparable. There are some circumstances where HDV can fall apart, but in normal everyday use HDV looks fine.

[stefan_koler]

Thanks that really helps me a lot.

So a SDI-outup (G1, H1) would offer me the possibility to increase picture-quality (even if it is not necessary now, it could be in future, to stay competitive). The G1 is too expensive (and - if I had the money to buy one, I'd definitely up the ante and get me a H1).

Is there a possibility to upgrade the A1? Because - as far as I know A1 and G1 are identically except the missing SDI-output.

[Barry_Green]

They are identical except for the jack-pack. No there's no option to upgrade. But if your goal is to bypass compression, you can do most of the same thing by using the analog component outputs instead of HD-SDI; Barlow Elton just posted some comparison pics of XHA1 HDV vs. uncompressed analog output.

Another thing to consider might be the Sony V1, which has an HDMI output terminal which would also give you uncompressed HD output. Seems like they're mired in some issues with the quality of the progressive footage in the European cameras though, so you might want to wait for that to all sort out before going for a European V1.

[Jason Ramsey]

Actually, the biggest limitation is probably the 8bit color, but that's a problem in all DV, HDV and current DVCPRO cams. I think Panasonic's intra-AVCHD codec might be 10bit, which will be awesome.



The HVX DVCPRO HD codec is 10 bit is it not?

Jason

[Barry_Green]

Nope. HDCAM, DVCPRO-HD, HDV, and AVC-HD are all 8-bit.

[Jason Ramsey]

What am I thinking about that is 10bit then?

Where did I hear that?

Jason

[xray]

Canon surprised me in a good way with both: in these little camcorder the MPEG2 compression HDV is holding its ground even in difficult shootings, and the 25F frameformat is surprisingly good compared with the "old" 25 Sony cineframe. But uncompressed is best. ;>)

[FatDaddy]

Here is a question then, (sorry about the hijack), what if I am not ready to edit HDV because I have a old computer and who knows when Avid Xpress Pro will support it, and I convert to dv 25 in camera as I dump footage. I was surprised to hear people saying that converted HDV looks better than original DV (compared to my DVX-100). I guess that way I could keep it 16x9, edit right away and go HDV native later when I upgrade computers and Avid actually releases support for 24f and Intel chips.

Am I smoking crack or will this work and look good (as opposed to going to a DVX-100b and waiting out the next version DVX or HVX).

Thoughts?

[Huy Vu]

I think the concensus is that downconverting from HDV will only yield an advantage when you downconvert in an NLE as opposed to downconverting in camera. Meaning you'll still have to edit in HD.

The difficulty in editing HDV natively is (I think) greatly exaggerated. I had a fairly old system (2.4 Ghz single core, Radeon 9500, 1.5 GB RAM) and Premiere Pro was able to handle the HDV footage surprisingly well. It slows down like crazy when I CC and add transitions but if you just need to make straight cuts and preview then it works out fairly well. Long render time though.

[Barry_Green]

What am I thinking about that is 10bit then?
Digital Betacam is 10-bit, as is the new AVC-Intra format.