Motivators: A list?

[Kholi]

I'm on a re-write (Finally! GAHD!) and after my script consultations (2 professional in total, logline included) I've got to start on a better motivation. I find that I tend to deal with death as a motivator a lot. I'm pretty sure that it's because I'm afraid of losing friends and family, and it's supposed to be natural to write about fears and the like... but I want to move away from it on this script.

So, aside from Death of a loved one, what are other motivating factors or catalysts for protagonists in your stories? Others that you've read?

[Isaac_Brody]

You know, this is one of those areas where I don't really have a list or secret on how to expand on. I think we all have themes we go back to. I think at first those themes are subconscious, but when you look and reflect on your work you see a pattern and you realize that something keeps drawing you back to that. You just have to look at your work and look for the other patterns there.

I don't think of death as motivator but more of a catalyst. What do characters do when confronted with death? What if a character and his wife are killed and the character is given a chance to come back to life? What does he do? Does he gets revenge?

I don't see death as just being a theme about life, I see it as the end of different events, it could be the death of a relationship, the end of a job, each of those are a death in a way and a catalyst for character change.

[Justin Kuhn]

Revenge, money, women, or some combination thereof.

[EJ Pennypacker]

what are other motivating factors or catalysts for protagonists in your stories?

Wants, needs and desires.

EJ

[Kholi]

Thanks for chiming in on the subject.

Should have time today at lunch to sit down and start thinking about this again. Brain fried last night.

[jpeck]

sorry for the line, but "write what you know"

[Blaine]

sorry for the line, but "write what you know"
Then we'd have no science fiction...

Of course, it's always a good idea to do the research on what you do write so it will have the ring of truth...

[Justin Kuhn]

sorry for the line, but "write what you know"

That changes nothing.

[mrWr0ng]

What I've learned is that a good character has two different internal directions:

What they want
What they need

Usually what they want is not what they need, and what they need is not what they want. In fact, they're usually at odds with each other.

[Kholi]

I was just on the way to start a thread concerning character development.

It's probably my weakest point and why I get sent back to the writing board all the damned time. My characters are just... weak and one dimensional.

[brianluce]

I was just on the way to start a thread concerning character development.

It's probably my weakest point and why I get sent back to the writing board all the damned time. My characters are just... weak and one dimensional.

it's really one of the hardest things in a very very hard craft.

alot of writers START with a character and then look for a story to insert them.

[EJ Pennypacker]

While often characters help shape a story, I always (if it's a big budget affair) start with a very solid/interesting/commerical/high concept idea, then move onto other elements to developing the idea.

I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story.

Story/premise always comes first IMO.

EJ

[Tom Marshall]

I was just on the way to start a thread concerning character development.

It's probably my weakest point and why I get sent back to the writing board all the damned time. My characters are just... weak and one dimensional.
As far as developing good characters, you have to make them well rounded. Bring out their strengths. But at the same time, bring out their weaknesses and vulnerabilities. As an actor myself, I *always* try to focus on what makes a character vulnerable. It helps develop their strengths and, at the same time, what they're willing to go through to hide the vulnerabilities. Try and visualize the characters in every detail. Bring it to the point where you can almost sit down with each character and have a conversation with them.

Just my thoughts...

[brianluce]

While often characters help shape a story, I always (if it's a big budget affair) start with a very solid/interesting/commerical/high concept idea, then move onto other elements to developing the idea.

I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story.

Story/premise always comes first IMO.

EJ

I wouldn't recommend recommending what works for you individually when so many writers do it differently.

"Always" is a word that doesn't even work in the technical forums. So I don't think it should be applied here. The only absolute in writing is that there are no absolutes.

It's whatever works. And if starting with a character first, as so many writers do, is what works, then that's what you should do.

[Kholi]

There are all types of ways to do things.

I do appreciate the character discussion here. If I find the article that I read last night I'll be happy to share it with you guys. It made me feel better about going back at this damned re-write.

[CallaghanFilms]

Motivators?
booze

[EJ Pennypacker]

I wouldn't recommend recommending what works for you individually when so many writers do it differently.

brian,

I don't understand your comment here. Are you saying I can't give my opinion on what I think works for myself? And in my opinion, what might help others?

Kholi,

If you'd like a device to 'flesh' out characters more, you can find a check-list here: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3292

EJ

[brianluce]

brian,

I don't understand your comment here. Are you saying I can't give my opinion on what I think works for myself? And in my opinion, what might help others?

EJ

You're discouraging a guy from a valid, time tested, and commonplace method of writing and developing screenplays. How can that be helpful?

You've got a lot of credibility in this forum and frankly you deserve it IMHOP- but in this case I think your advice would be limiting and not helpful were the poster to follow it.

[EJ Pennypacker]

IMO it all boils down to whether you're crafting a character-driven piece, over something like a high-concept piece.

IMO, if you're creating something you want to sell to the studios, and you're interested in making a career in H-Wood, then the 'concept' has to be placed first (unless character is part of that concept) over the inital creation of a character.

In the end, whatever gets you writing your story in the first place - is the best thing. Whether character comes before premise, it could be one of the same/ or is the same.

It's nearly impossibly to debate 'what comes first' (character vs premise) as not all writers think alike, and there's no possible way in earth to measure this with statistics (how can you record thoughts of the writers?).

But I'm my opinion, it's better to create a solid, marketable and interesting premise, *then* create the characters to populate that universe of your story. Not the other way around.

EJ

[Sad Max]

A writer friend of mine insists that the definition of a story, is 'a person with a problem.'

I suppose there are potentially as many problems, and therefore stories, as there are people.

[brianluce]

IMO it all boils down to whether you're crafting a character-driven piece, over something like a high-concept piece.

IMO, if you're creating something you want to sell to the studios, and you're interested in making a career in H-Wood, then the 'concept' has to be placed first (unless character is part of that concept) over the inital creation of a character.

In the end, whatever gets you writing your story in the first place - is the best thing. Whether character comes before premise, it could be one of the same/ or is the same.

It's nearly impossibly to debate 'what comes first' (character vs premise) as not all writers think alike, and there's no possible way in earth to measure this with statistics (how can you record thoughts of the writers?).

But I'm my opinion, it's better to create a solid, marketable and interesting premise, *then* create the characters to populate that universe of your story. Not the other way around.

EJ

My response is that the nebulous and mysterious nature of the creative process doesn't give one the luxury of deciding a character versus concept/story starting point. It's in fact entirely possible that it might be a "Setting" that gets the ball rolling. I think it comes down to something a writer finds inspiring. It could be a character, a story idea, a setting, or an obscure scene--such as the train/airplane scene in North by Northwest. It could be a piece of music. A line, Who knows. It's that spark that ignites a story. They;re all valid and all been used in one form or another.
You know what's worked for you in the past. But what works for you may not work for me--so there's no reason to discourage other approaches to developing a story.

[Kholi]

brian,

I don't understand your comment here. Are you saying I can't give my opinion on what I think works for myself? And in my opinion, what might help others?

Kholi,

If you'd like a device to 'flesh' out characters more, you can find a check-list here: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3292

EJ

Thanks for that! I just cut and pasted that into a Word file and will keep that forever. Just added it to my writing tools list. EDIT: And at a secong glance of this Template, this might be the perfect thing to get me going on the right track. If I feel like I HAVE to answer all of these questions, then I'll get to know this entity in my brain more-so than I usually do. And, it'll force me to be more creative with the types of characters possible, instead of reusing lines. It'll also show me that some characters that I've created have similarities.

Thanks for this, EJ. Seriously.

On the idea of what gets the ball rolling: I've never been able to start a story around a character. It's always a scene, setting, or concept for me. Which might be my issue with character "depth". =\

[Charli]

I don't think EJ was trying to discourage anyone, but the truth of the matter is this,
a writer creates a STORY not a character. The PLOT usually comes first. Not
saying that it's not possible to have a character first and build around that, it's
just really not a good idea because you can LIMIT your story to that character.

Where as if you start with the PLOT first, the premise, then the possibility is
endless. I'm going to agree with EJ as a writer on this, I would personally
concentrate on the story first and then go from there.

I am not trying to discourage anyone, however, I am trying to steer a more sure
method of coming up with a broader sense of storytelling.

[brianluce]

I don't think EJ was trying to discourage anyone, but the truth of the matter is this,
a writer creates a STORY not a character. The PLOT usually comes first. Not
saying that it's not possible to have a character first and build around that, it's
just really not a good idea because you can LIMIT your story to that character.
.

Charli, you are simply wrong. This may be how YOU do it, but others don't do it that way. It doesn't "Limit" anything. I don't know why you keep asserting your personal preferences as unfettered truth. It's a disservice to this group to make blanket statements like "writers create story not character."

However I'm with EJ that a high concept idea is the best way to sell a script. In fact if you've got a really good idea, you don't even need a script. Studios and producers will pay for a good idea. The catch is that a great idea is the hardest part of the process and most writers can't come up with one.

[EJ Pennypacker]

Charli, you are simply wrong. This may be how YOU do it, but others don't do it that way.

brian,

Your posts are coming across very, very odd. I don't know why you would make such grand statements as 'others don't do it that way'. Who are others? Who are these people? Am I an 'other'? Is Charlie? Are these pro screenwriters we are talking about here. And if so, how many. And what constitutes 'others' in the numeric sense. 5. 10? 100?

By your own standards, nobody should tell anyone what they should do, in fear that it may to a 'disservice to the group'. So by using your own theory, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong, for surely that is 'wrong'?

So we're left with a board where nobody is allowed any discussion, based on the theory that 'everybody could be wrong' - and we are all left with nothing.

A blank webspace where nobody can voice their opinions?

EJ

[CallaghanFilms]

Again...
a writer writes.

[brianluce]

brian,

Your posts are coming across very, very odd. I don't know why you would make such grand statements as 'others don't do it that way'. Who are others? Who are these people? Am I an 'other'? Is Charlie? Are these pro screenwriters we are talking about here. And if so, how many. And what constitutes 'others' in the numeric sense. 5. 10? 100?

By your own standards, nobody should tell anyone what they should do, in fear that it may to a 'disservice to the group'. So by using your own theory, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong, for surely that is 'wrong'?

So we're left with a board where nobody is allowed any discussion, based on the theory that 'everybody could be wrong' - and we are all left with nothing.

A blank webspace where nobody can voice their opinions?

EJ

You're misrepresenting my posts and it's not I making "grand" statements. There's nothing wrong with saying "I prefer to start with plot first." But it IS wrong to discourage (as you did) people from taking a different approach or for Charli to state "Here's the real truth!" (That's what I call a grand statement!) Unless "Charli" is a pseudonym (sP?) for William Goldman, maybe she oughta show some humility.

My position all along is there are no grand truths except for one: That there are no grand truths. There might be truths for Charli, but I assure you, they're far from "grand". This sentiment is echoed by William Goldman himself with his famous line "No one knows anything". And every interview and article I've read by an A list writer from Anastasio to Zalian consistently resists the urge to bottle the creative process--and things like "The truth is a writer creates a story NOT a character" is not just wrong but feels like, and smells like a Syd Field inspired, reductionist attempt to package the writing process into neat little connect the dots workbook. No thank you.

And I'm certainly for open discussion. But I see a lot of novice questions here by novice writers. These writers could be the Paul Haggis's of tomorrow so I object to baseless advice steering a talented person in the wrong direction.

Again, what works for you, may not work for others. So to assert your personal preference as an option is fine, but to assert them as ground rules for the craft is wrong.

The best advice in the thread is from Callaghan.

[brianluce]

A writer friend of mine insists that the definition of a story, is 'a person with a problem.'



I love that quote and am 100% on board with it...

[EJ Pennypacker]

While often characters help shape a story, I always (if it's a big budget affair) start with a very solid/interesting/commerical/high concept idea, then move onto other elements to developing the idea.

I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story.

Story/premise always comes first IMO.

EJ

That is my original statement, that I guess brian has taken offense to.

And I guess that seperation of those words:


I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story.

Story/premise always comes first IMO.

Should be read all as one sentence, despite it being seperated. Those two sentences, were, my opinions.


There's nothing wrong with saying "I prefer to start with plot first." But it IS wrong to discourage (as you did) people from taking a different approach...

brian,

I think you need to re-read my post(s) in this thread(s), as you're not misrepresenting my posts, you're misunderstanding them.

I was giving 'my opinion', not discouraging people, or telling them if they do something else, then they are idiots.

I'll quite happily edit my posts and remove 'in my opinion' and add 'I prefer to' if that'll make things good with you. But I see them meaning the same thing.

EJ

[brianluce]

EJ,

As I understood you post, you were discouraging people from starting with character and instead focusing on story first. You said:

"I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story."

If that is not what you meant, then I apologize for misrepresenting your advice.

My opinion is that starting with character first is a perfectly valid way to develop a screenplay.

[Justin Kuhn]

These writers could be the Paul Haggis's of tomorrow

Dear God, I hope not. The one we've got writes enough crappy movies as it is.

As far as this debate goes...it's kind of stupid. There's obviously no one way to write. I started one script with a couple amusing lines of dialogue, and it turned into one of my favorite scripts. That said, I find it impossible to start with one or the other. Plot/character: aren't they the same thing? Ideally the plot happens because of the characters.

Don't get me wrong, I've started with concepts too. But those scripts never go anywhere, because I don't have any characters. Just a page full of pitches.

[brianluce]

Dear God, I hope not. The one we've got writes enough crappy movies as it is.



Apparently the Academy and WGA don't think so...

[Charli]

Call - is it that writers right or writers rewrite?

brian - I don't think I was showing pride nor arrogance, and it appears you are the only one who took offense. There are people who write and then there are true writers, I don't think you'll disagree there, for there are people who filmmake, and then there are those who are true filmmakers.

All I know is that I know nothing - give me a bloody break.

[Justin Kuhn]

Apparently the Academy and WGA don't think so...

Why are you arguing my side of the issue?

[Kholi]

Dear God, I hope not. The one we've got writes enough crappy movies as it is.

As far as this debate goes...it's kind of stupid. There's obviously no one way to write. I started one script with a couple amusing lines of dialogue, and it turned into one of my favorite scripts. That said, I find it impossible to start with one or the other. Plot/character: aren't they the same thing? Ideally the plot happens because of the characters.

Don't get me wrong, I've started with concepts too. But those scripts never go anywhere, because I don't have any characters. Just a page full of pitches.

I start with concepts to, and have to build characters afterward. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, though. It's just learning HOW to build characters, but after you've got about three successful characters in your story, then I'd guess you'd kind of get how it works. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

I am using EJ's character sheet right now, and it's pretty fun to get into. Made me realize I had a few things off with my lead and now I'm fixing that.

[CallaghanFilms]

Call - is it that writers right or writers rewrite?


No, actually the fine print is

a writer (shuts up and) writes.

[Blaine]

is it that writers right or writers rewrite?
Actually, I think superheroes right and writers write.

[Charli]

Call - I LOVE that motto, cool!

Blaine - omg, you added a superhero reference, I think I love you! Really, one day, I want to create my own superhero. I did a comic book spec a long time ago, but I want to do a superhero short! woo hoo, what powers to have, what powers...

[mrWr0ng]

I'm not sure what people are arguing about.

A plot driven film starts with a concept and a story first and fills it with characters to make the action happen

A character driven film starts with a character and a problem and fills it with action to make the story happen

Both are just fine and have many different qualified films under their belts.

The feature I'm writing now is a concept action story populated with characters designed to push the story forward. The feature I wrote before was about a bunch of characters and their motivations and what happens when they cross.

[brianluce]

Call - is it that writers right or writers rewrite?

brian - I don't think I was showing pride nor arrogance, and it appears you are the only one who took offense. There are people who write and then there are true writers, I don't think you'll disagree there, for there are people who filmmake, and then there are those who are true filmmakers.

All I know is that I know nothing - give me a bloody break.

For the most part, I have no idea what you're talking about.

And it's fine if you want to disagree with William Goldman's take on the subject--however a lot people think he's credible. I do at least.

[brianluce]

I'm not sure what people are arguing about.



.

We're discussing the creative process in regards to writing. Some people here think the best way to develop a story is start with a plot and then worry about the other stuff later. I'm saying starting with a character is equally valid, widely done, and shouldn't be discouraged as creative approach. I'm also saying it doesn't even have to be an either/or, character or story, it could be setting, a poem, or any number of things.

[mrWr0ng]

Well yeah, I mean if you dumb the creative process down to a "start with X, then add Y and you get Z."

If you're making a painting, not every artist starts with the background and paints the foreground over. Some go the other way. Some start with a sketch and then paint, some just start painting with no idea and then go with what forms in their head as they put paint to canvas.

There is no one way to create anything.

[brianluce]

Well yeah, I mean if you dumb the creative process down to a "start with X, then add Y and you get Z."

If you're making a painting, not every artist starts with the background and paints the foreground over. Some go the other way. Some start with a sketch and then paint, some just start painting with no idea and then go with what forms in their head as they put paint to canvas.

There is no one way to create anything.

That's the point I've been trying to make. It's a no brainer.

[dougspice]

A good writer needs both interesting characters and a good story to place them in. Whichever one gets you to the other in your own process is just as valid. I personally don't even have a fixed method of getting there (and maybe this is why I am not strictly a writer).

Now, having sidestepped this debate, I think I can share a few tools for creating interesting characters. EJ's list is really useful and comprehensive, but it would be easy to just go down it, making choices that actually aren't compatible without any well-considered rationale. Why do that when there's an entire industry out there practically designed to be support services for writers: role-playing games.

Seriously, find yourself a game or comic shop and buy a copy of the GURPS rules set. Skip straight to the character generation section and go to it. In no time you'll have a really interesting, balanced, sensible character, complete with history, motivation, physical and mental foibles, and more. I don't think I've ever actually played a GURPS game, but I have used that character system to death. There are faster, simpler alternatives out there, but GURPS is so thorough, and so adaptable to all genres, that I have to recommend it without reservation.

[Sad Max]

That's funny; I used to do a lot of illustration work for TSR and Game Designers' Workshop and Steve Jackson Games, in college. I played with using the Traveller system to flesh out characters and backgrounds, although I didn't stick with the approach.

[EJ Pennypacker]

I've based some of that list on role playing game character creation sheets. Actually if I remember, I recommend people rolling a d10 dice and letting the questions be decided that. way

I used to be a big fan of CYBERPUNK, which had an interesting character sheet (or did have once I was finished adapting it).

In the past, I've 'interviewed' characters on various subjects, documenting their dialogue responses to get their 'voice'.

I read in an interview recently with some writer that he likes to piss off his characters in this 'interview', and thus they would reveal their inner core and trueselves.

EJ

[Sad Max]

Yeah, Cyberpunk. Worked on that one, too. The RTG team was an interesting bunch.

[Kholi]

EJ's list got me cracking quickly. I had a January 25th deadline date for a 120 page re-write which I started two days ago. In two days I've locked down sensible, plausible characters and their conflicts and have totally RE-WRITTEN 40 pages of script.

I'm ahead of schedule!!! Thanks for the list, E.J. And everyone for advice.

[dougspice]

I own that book, Sad Max. Nice hairstyles you've drawn! :)

Good work, Kholi.