making m2t files workable in FCP?

[Jay Rodriguez]

I shot this moon scene last night and realized how much I don't know when it comes to the A1+1080i/24F+FS-4Pro workflow.

My biggest flaw at the moment is trying to figure out this whole turning .m2t files into something that FCP can recognize. How is it done? I downloaded MPEG Streamclip but not really sure how to use it. Is this what folks are using?

[Elton]

Maybe you should wait for the 2.1 Firestore firmware update and, for the time being, simply capture 24F from tape. The camera's mechanism isn't *that* fragile. It's under warranty so just use it if you need to.

I understand the attraction of tapeless, but it's better to work in the native HDV codec and then export to an intermediate codec, rather than taking the extra time to convert footage via MPEG Streamclip (losing timecode in the process, I might add) to AIC, PhotoJPEG, DVCPRO HD etc.

So just learn to love that log and capture window for a while and just do it *old school*. :)

[Juan Diaz]

I'm using the Firestore to record M2Ts and I edit using Final Cut Pro and so far I'm happy with my workflow. But first how are you planning on finishing your projects? Do you need to print your master back to HDV tape? Depending on how you're finishing your project, this workflow works great. I use MPEG Streamclip to convert all my M2Ts to DVCProHD, and I stay in that format for the rest of the project. So here's what I do.

1. I open up the batch window in MPEG Streamclip (in the List Menu) and drag all my M2T's into the batch.

2. MPEG Streamclip asks you what format you want to create:

http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/juan/mpeg_streamclip_pics/01_MPEG_Streamclip_Export_t.jpg

Choose Quicktime, then choose your destination folder.

3. You then pick your export settings. These are the ones I use below:

http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/juan/mpeg_streamclip_pics/02_MPEG_Streamclip_DV100_10.jpg

You're shooting 24f right? Leaving the "Frame Rate" box empty tells MPEG Streamclip to generate the new clips at the same frame rate as the originals. If you shoot 24f, the resulting clips are 23.98fps.

Click "To Batch"

4. Your batch window will look something like this:

http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/juan/mpeg_streamclip_pics/03_MPEG_Streamclip_Batch_Wi.jpg

Click "Go".

5. After it's done you can drag the resulting files into FCP. Your sequence settings would need to look like this:

http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/juan/mpeg_streamclip_pics/04_FCP_1080i50-24p_Settings.jpg

NOTE: I use the 50hz DVCProHD Codec (DVCPROHD 1080i50) because it keeps the luma sampling at 1440x1080, just like Canon's HDV. This workflow works just as well with the 60hz codec but luma gets subsampled to 1280x1080 so you lose a little detail. Either codec works though because they'll both edit 24p. Just make sure that the codec of your exported clips matches that of the timeline.

This workflow works for me because, I'm not going back out to tape and I don't want to edit in an MPEG-2 codec so I wouldn't want to use QuickTime HDV anyway.

This works for me. Your mileage may vary!

[Jay Rodriguez]

Juan that's awesome of you to explain in this detail! You're one of those guys that makes a msg board stand out!

I'm going to give this a try in a few minutes as I'm home today so I'll post back shortly to report how it worked out for me.

Does working in this method prove to be the best results for DVD output? I don't plan to go out to tape, well only for final project back up, but I do plan to have my final out put be on DVD.




EDIT: If my memory stikes me correctly don't you have the FS4 Pro HD? If so, if you had the option to trade in for the FS-C would you do so? I ask because I'm in that exact situation at the moment.

[dpc]

Thanks for posting, Juan --- I didn't know this:

NOTE: I use the 50hz DVCProHD Codec (DVCPROHD 1080i50) because it keeps the luma sampling at 1440x1080, just like Canon's HDV. This workflow works just as well with the 60hz codec but luma gets subsampled to 1280x1080 so you lose a little detail. Either codec works though because they'll both edit 24p.

[Juan Diaz]

Hey Coffee,

It's funny I had originally purchased an FS4ProHD also, but because they were backordered I canceled my order and bought the FS-C. Apparently that ended up being a good thing. BUT I plan to keep using my M2T workflow (not interested in QuickTime HDV) so I guess for myself either model would've been fine.

This workflow should work fine for DVDs because you can author a 24p DVD (the players add the pulldown to display the programs on your (NTSC) TV). So if you have a 24p sequence you should just be able to use compressor or DVD Studio Pro to create the 24p MPEG-2 File.

Aahh, The beauty of Software Codecs and tapeless workflows!

[Juan Diaz]

Thanks for posting, Juan --- I didn't know this:

NOTE: I use the 50hz DVCProHD Codec (DVCPROHD 1080i50) because it keeps the luma sampling at 1440x1080, just like Canon's HDV. This workflow works just as well with the 60hz codec but luma gets subsampled to 1280x1080 so you lose a little detail. Either codec works though because they'll both edit 24p.


I learned this little bit from Mike Curtis and his HD For Indies blog. So I guess I should really say:

"Aahh, The beauty of Software Codecs and tapeless workflows!...And the internet!"

[dcrin3]

coffee what is it that you're after which requires that m2t workflow? isnt quicktime hdv also a good delivery especially for web? the fs-c you are talking about is it the same thing as this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=434414&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

also is this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=466716&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
capable of being used on the a1? i know thewho mentioned it could be upgraded to a higher capacity drive. ill be super poor. :)

[Jay Rodriguez]

I just want to be able to go from the FS straight to FCP without having to use any "middle man" tools like MPEG Streamclip but right now, that's my only option right?

Also, I have the product that you linked, the same exact one. The problem is, FE will release an update ONLY for the FS-C to record 1080i/24F in QT format which leaves the FS-4Pro HD users out of the loop.

[Juan Diaz]

I just want to be able to go from the FS straight to FCP without having to use any "middle man" tools like MPEG Streamclip but right now, that's my only option right?

Also, I have the product that you linked, the same exact one. The problem is, FE will release an update ONLY for the FS-C to record 1080i/24F in QT format which leaves the FS-4Pro HD users out of the loop.


FE's desicion does seem silly and arbitrary as there doesn't seem to be any technical reason why they couldn't just make the update available to all FS4's. It's caused alot of confusion among users and in fact caused confusion within FE employess, as there are numerous accounts on this and other boards of users getting conflicting answers from tech and sales people at FE.

Maybe instead of the "Tell Apple, WE NEED FCP/M2T SUPPORT!" petition there should be a "Tell FE to add the Canon update to all FS-4s" petition.

I think it would be easier for FE to do that than Apple, and it seems to me there are actually good reasons for Apple not directly supporting M2Ts.

[Jay Rodriguez]

I know all about the conflicting responses from FE, thier sales, tech support and retailers. It's a total nightmare with them people as nobody can come up with a unified response to the issue.

You make a good point though, maybe we should beat down FE's email with requests/demands to update all FS-4's with the update.

I'm going to send them an email right now.

[Juan Diaz]

Go for it Coffee.

Revolucion!

[Jay Rodriguez]

Done! I sent them an email basically saying that almost every rep over there has a different response to the FS-4Pro / FS-C QT 1080i/24F update mystery.

I think it's ridiculous that they're so mixed up on the final word.

Juan, shoot them an email dude. Let them know. support@focusinfo.com

[Juan Diaz]

Will do.

[Jay Rodriguez]

I got a response from Focus Enhancement.

But first here's my email to them:

Will the FS-4Pro HD have the same update as the FS-C in regards to QT
1080i/24F recording?

I have been mislead by two people in your tech department as well as
one of your retailers as they said the FS-4Pro HD & the FS-C are the
same units and will have the same updates. Your techs and retailers
have a different answer almost everytime I have called and Matt McEwen
seems to provide a totally different response though these web forums
as well.

I need a final official word from your company before my return policy
expires from your retailer.

Please respond soon.



Their response:

"I am sorry for the confusion. Matt is actually talking about a future upgrade for the FS-C. This upgrade has only been talked about and not even available for beta testing yet. It might not be available for several months down the road (maybe summer).

Our tech support department doesn't hear about these future developments so we are going on present information. We apologize for the confusion.

As of now the FS-4Pro HD will not have this upgrade. However, this may change. "

[SamKam]

Coffee, Juan thanks so much for this dialogue. I also was caught up in the Firestore confusion and, after sorting out (it really shouldn't have been so hard) that NONE of their units presently support 24F in Quicktime, a rep from Focus on another board indicated that 2.1 was in beta testing now. (In fact, he asked if I was interested in beta testing, but never responded when I said yes) Reading coffee's email from Focus saying they haven't even started beta testing is demoralizing, to say the least. I was going to wait for the update until I bought the FS-C, but knowing that it is months (at least!) away . . .

Juan your description of the m2t workaround is fantastic. How long does it take?

[Jay Rodriguez]

you're welcome samkam.

I tried Juan's method earlier today and can report that it doesn't take long at all. I don't have a breakdown time wise but I worked on about 40GB worth of footy and it was around 5 min.

[SamKam]

Thanks man.
And the tapeless workflow worked smoothly?
By the way, is there any loss of anything with the conversion?

[Jay Rodriguez]

the work flow is amazing, I love it.

As for the conversion losing anything, I don't think so. Elton would be someone that might know the answer to that.

[Juan Diaz]

SamKam,

I don't have hard numbers for how fast the conversion process is, but subjectively it seems very quick to me. It's still so much less of a pain to batch convert files in MPEG Streamclip than it is to log and capture from tape, that I've never felt compelled to benchmark the process. I have two machines that I regularly use, a Quad G5 and a three year old 1.33 GHz Powerbook G4, and even on the Powerbook it doesn't seem unnacceptably slow.

Regarding quality loss. This is testable, and you have piqued my curiosity. But in the meantime, I think there probably is a minor quality loss, but there's a difference between a mathematically lossy conversion and a visually perceptible one. Doing A/B switching I can't see a loss in quality, though I'm sure it's there. I am concerned with keeping my footage as pristine as possible (unless I *mean* to mess it up), but the way I see it, unless you plan to do a cuts only edit and leave your footage there, then over the whole of the postproduction chain you're probably better off bumping up the footage to a more robust format.

I rarely do cuts only work, and anything I edit will usually have at least a few dissolves and some color correction and that being the case, I think I end up preserving more quality in my final program if I transcode to an I-Frame 4:2:2 codec first and then do any processing. Plus I avoid the long render times at the end because I'm processing the MPEG-2 footage one time for conversion, in it's raw state, rather than asking my computer to decode the MPEG stream, decode the GOPs etc, process filters, than rebuild the MPEG stream in a render. DVCProHD is s optimized for performance in FCP, so I get good realtime performance and quick renders.

But the bottom line for me is that, if you take the entire postproduction chain into account (and depending on the complexity of your project), the quality of the finished product is less compromised by moving to a more forgiving codec. The only quality loss I can perceive is if I transcode to the 60hz version of DVCProHD, which is why I use the 50hz one.

[SamKam]

Thanks Juan. Much of what you wrote is still over my head, but I'm trying . . . .
Thanks to you and coffee I'm gonna head downtown tomorrow morning, pick up the FS-C and try the workaround this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Juan Diaz]

Good luck SamKam. And welcome to the club.

[Jay Rodriguez]

You're welcome Sam, and yeah, welcome to the club.

[SamKam]

Thanks fellas. Unfortunately, my initiation will have to wait a little longer. In this big city - the town so nice they named it twice - there ain't no FS-C's. Very hard to believe. Found one (only one place had 'em in stock!) but it had version 1.0 on it. Will hopefully be getting one next week.

[SamKam]

Juan, coffee-
was finally able to get an FSC unit (had to settle for one with version 1.0 but the update is on its way) and tried the workaround and - bless you Juan - it worked without a hitch. So many thanks again.
One question though-
I plan to shoot recording both to tape and the Firestore. The tapes will sit on the shelf as backup. In case I need to use a tape for some reason (e.g. dropout or hits on the Firestore), should I set my Compressor setting in the sequence settings in FCP to HDV 1080i50 or does it not matter?
Thanks again, guys.

[Elton]

Set your compressor setting in FCP to whatever codec and timebase you recorded with. If you shot 24F HDV and transcoded to DVCPRO HD 1080 at 23.98, set your FCP sequence compressor to the same settings, usually with 16 bit/48K audio too.

You can capture your m2t's from tape with DVHSCap, transcode to the codec of your choice with MPEG Streamclip, and then edit in FCP with the same codec settings you used with MPEG Streamclip.

I must say though, it's so much easier to simply capture entire tapes with scene detection enabled, and simply edit in the FCP HDV 1080 24p mode. Wait till Firestore has QT HDV 24F fully ironed out, (which should be sometime after NAB) and just deal with tape in the meantime. The HDV editing is actually smoother than most would think who haven't tried it yet.

[SamKam]

Thanks Elton.
Don't mind dealing with tape in the meantime (when is NAB, btw?), but what about wear and tear on the A1's heads? Would I need to get the HV10?

[Elton]

It's all the shuttling around on multiple tapes that can put the most wear and tear on the heads, but honestly, I think this is an exaggerated fear. I've been using the H1 for capture and have had no trouble in well over a year. I just find the beginning of the tape's footage, set an in point, then FF to the end of the tape and mark a timecode out point, then let the computer automatically ingest the footage, where it creates a new clip for each time I start/stopped the recording. I'll individually log the footage once its captured.

It really isn't all that bad. If you want to be ultimately safe, the little HV10 makes a super inexpensive capture deck, and a nice little HD B Cam too!

[Elton]

Thanks Elton.
Don't mind dealing with tape in the meantime (when is NAB, btw?), but what about wear and tear on the A1's heads? Would I need to get the HV10?

Here's a nice deal on the HV10. http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11185179&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&N=4017812&Mo=5&No=3&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=21253&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&Sp=C&topnav=

[SamKam]

Here's an even better deal on it:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=448812&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

I've thought about using the HV10 as a deck and B camera, but I shoot nearly everything 24F. Can I match that to the 60i on the HV10?

[SamKam]

And, I suppose, another way to save the heads is by using a rewinder.

[Elton]

Here's an even better deal on it:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=448812&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

I've thought about using the HV10 as a deck and B camera, but I shoot nearly everything 24F. Can I match that to the 60i on the HV10?

That's a helluva deal. Sheesh, that price is a no-brainer.

Nattress does a good job of 60i to 24p conversion, but it'll be tough to get a perfect match every time. I think it can work well enough that the difference won't be noticeable.

[Jay Rodriguez]

Set your compressor setting in FCP to whatever codec and timebase you recorded with. If you shot 24F HDV and transcoded to DVCPRO HD 1080 at 23.98, set your FCP sequence compressor to the same settings, usually with 16 bit/48K audio too.

You can capture your m2t's from tape with DVHSCap, transcode to the codec of your choice with MPEG Streamclip, and then edit in FCP with the same codec settings you used with MPEG Streamclip.

I must say though, it's so much easier to simply capture entire tapes with scene detection enabled, and simply edit in the FCP HDV 1080 24p mode. Wait till Firestore has QT HDV 24F fully ironed out, (which should be sometime after NAB) and just deal with tape in the meantime. The HDV editing is actually smoother than most would think who haven't tried it yet.



Hey Elton,
Are you saying that, with scene detection enabled, FCP will actually make different clips for every start/stop recorded piece of footage on a tape? If so then damn, I've been doing all of that manually! LOL Where do you make this selection?

[Elton]

Hey Elton,
Are you saying that, with scene detection enabled, FCP will actually make different clips for every start/stop recorded piece of footage on a tape? If so then damn, I've been doing all of that manually! LOL Where do you make this selection?

Yes, it's located in the Log and Capture window in the Clip Settings tab. There's a check box for "Create new clip on Start/Stop".

Works great.

[Jay Rodriguez]

DOH! LOL, I didn't know that! Thanks, I'm going to go back to using tape until this FS issue I'm having is figured out.