Ryan vs. Dorkman 2

[DorkmanScott]

A few years back a friend of mine (now roommate) and I made a short lightsaber fight scene movie for a contest over at TheForce.net. The long title is "Ryan Wieber vs. Michael 'Dorkman' Scott". The more commonly used short form is "Ryan vs. Dorkman", and the most commonly used acronym form, RvD.

Then, in the spring of 2006, suddenly the film was all over the net -- YouTube, Digg, Google Video, you name it, it was probably there. So we decided it was time to do what we'd always just talked idly about doing: make a sequel.

We put up a website to update on our progress, and just this evening we publicly posted an exclusive first look behind the scenes at the upcoming sequel, RvD2.

The movie was shot on the HVX, 720p 24pN. The behind-the-scenes footage was shot with the DVX, so we kept it in the family.

I will be updating the progress of the film, as well as occasional anecdotes about making the film and the HVX workflow, over the next few months. In the meantime, please check out our site and link all your friends to our sneak peek!

http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com

[ChrisHurn]

Nice! Looks really cool. I am interested in details regarding the recording of the score, do you think you could elaborate a bit? Like how many sessions, how much will it cost etc? (What kind of figures are you looking at?) Anything would be nice to know. :)

-Chris

[robo3687]

greetings dorkman...i wondered if this would ever wander over from tf.n....top work by you and ryan...really...

[MalcolmOng]

Cool, and good luck!

[DorkmanScott]

Nice! Looks really cool. I am interested in details regarding the recording of the score, do you think you could elaborate a bit? Like how many sessions, how much will it cost etc? (What kind of figures are you looking at?) Anything would be nice to know. :)
According to our composers, the recording should only take one session, and only a few hours as opposed to an entire day. The other soundtrack we mention, Forced Alliance, was about 15 minutes' worth of music and they recorded that in 3 hours. We have about half as much film to score, so that should be ample time.

As far as cost, we basically plan to tailor the session to what we can afford. At this point, with our previous donations and funneling our own cash into this, we figure we've got between $6-7000 that we can put towards making this happen. That will get us about a 30-piece orchestra and the 3 hours we'll need in a decent studio.

Any additional funding we receive will go directly toward making the score "bigger". Mainly that means being able to hire more performers (each one will cost about $100 for the day). To get the "best case" full orchestra, we're looking at approximately doubling the amount we're currently able to put in.

We got pretty far with pretty small amounts of money up to now. Unfortunately for that (but fortunately, of course, for the quality), these are the performers who record just about all the scores in Hollywood, and they don't work for free. We're getting them at about 10% of what they normally charge, which is a huge discount, but still a lot of money.

[Kholi]

Holy crap. Everyone comes over here from that FXhome.com site.

I remember looking at Ryan's stuff soooo long ago. Edit: Omg you guys grew up. Ryan has like... facial hair. LOL.

Good luck on the new fight.

[AuditoryVisuals]

HVX200, that's a huge improvement over the old GL-1! I watched Ryan vs. Dorkman a while ago (highly compressed and low resolution). Will you release this on DVD?

What software will you be using? I know you used After Effects, Premiere and Photoshop before. Will you be using FCP and Shake?

And how does this fit in if you're both older and you both died in the last one?

I remember Ryan on 30 by 30 Kid Flicks! Paleothetic Park is the only one I actually remember.

[Alex Jeffery]

Looks cool. Some of those quick shots in the sneak preview amaze me. Does roto'ing at 720p slow the process down at all or has it proven to be more efficient? Can't wait for the release!

[snodart]

Yea, RvD was great. I remember watching it back when I was just getting into filmmaking. I gladly dropped a little donation months back to help with the location (I think it was to help with the location:huh: ). At any rate, I'm looking forward to part 2.

[DorkmanScott]

HVX200, that's a huge improvement over the old GL-1! I watched Ryan vs. Dorkman a while ago (highly compressed and low resolution). Will you release this on DVD?
The plan is to release both on DVD, possibly included with a behind-the-scenes documentary.


What software will you be using? I know you used After Effects, Premiere and Photoshop before. Will you be using FCP and Shake?
A lot of people in the low-budget world use Shake now, especially since the amazing drop in price a few months back.

It remains my opinion, though, that using Shake to do lightsaber effects is like using a cannon to kill a mosquito. While we've upgraded to Final Cut for the editing, we're still using After Effects for the visual effects.


And how does this fit in if you're both older and you both died in the last one?
It's kind of like Evil Dead 2. Part continuation, part remake. Try not to think about it too much.


I remember Ryan on 30 by 30 Kid Flicks! Paleothetic Park is the only one I actually remember.
You're lucky. He won't show that one to anyone anymore -- I've never seen it!


Looks cool. Some of those quick shots in the sneak preview amaze me.
:dankk2:

I think the shots we didn't include are even cooler. ;)


Does roto'ing at 720p slow the process down at all or has it proven to be more efficient?
Mostly it's more efficient. It's not too difficult for AE to call up a frame from the video stream pretty much right away, so I don't spend any more time waiting for the video to load than I would in SD (that being my subjective experience and not something I've actually measured).

With so much resolution, the detail is outstanding. I've had to guess where the saber is maybe three or four times this time around -- compared to working in SD, where half of it is guesswork, and trying to get it right can be pretty tough.

On the flip side, once the glows are added, the video chugs a LOT more than it does in SD -- to watch a time-efficient preview I sometimes have to scale the quality as low as a quarter. There's probably video cards that would make that unnecessary, but all I've got is the standard stuff in my comp.

Rendering is surprisingly not as much of a chore as I thought it would be. Most shots are done in 5 minutes or so (of course, most shots are two seconds or fewer).


Yea, RvD was great. I remember watching it back when I was just getting into filmmaking. I gladly dropped a little donation months back to help with the location (I think it was to help with the location:huh: ). At any rate, I'm looking forward to part 2.
Thanks for your donation! If we didn't use it for the location, it'll be going toward the music, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed. :)

[majormorgan]

Hiya Michael [Dorkman] its Richard from over at fanfilms.com site [Majormorgan - Secrets of the Sith].

I can't wait to see RVD2, the first one was supercool and the fact your shooting the second at HD makes it all the more cooler for me.

Did anything ever come of the other script you sent me?

Anyways, until RVD2, see ya.

MajorM.

[DorkmanScott]

Hey Richard,

Good to see you here!

That script went on the backburner when the money went dry. We may start it up again with the same general concept, but since then I've grown a bit and I think I'll probably end up rewriting the thing almost from scratch.

Whatever happened to YOUR movie? :tongue:

[majormorgan]

Hiya Michael,

severall things happened off the back of the work I did on my 'Secrets of the Sith' trailers, the main one was I got a lot of work from it and my career with my company took off. I've since done some work for TV here in the UK mainly CGI directed TV advertising, and there's been a lot of corporate video both live action and CGI.

The main thing is that I've had a break from finishing 'Secrets' for about 2 years now [sporadic bits and pieces here and there] but I do need to finish it, if only to thank everyone who helped me with the pre-production and production. So I'll be trying to make some time for that.

I'm glad to see that there's a new RVD and I can't wait to see it. RVD was totally awesome, but with the new experiences you've gained since then and a new format to shoot on this one's gonna eclipse the original.

I'll be keeping an eye out for news, but if there's any sneak previews, give me a nod, I'd love to see.

Hope all goes well.

Talk soon,

Majormorgan
[Richard]

[DorkmanScott]

We have officially booked a theatre for our premiere event.

We will be showing RvD2, for the first time ever anywhere, at the Wilshire Fine Arts Theatre in Beverly Hills, CA. The screening will be on February 24th, 2007, at 5PM.

Prior to the screening, we will be showing some other lightsaber fan films in a sort of mini-festival, to give RvD2 some context and show the creative "lineage" of the film. Some of the filmmakers will even be in attendance to introduce their films.

Admission is free, and the theatre is spacious (400+ seats), so anyone in the L.A. area is welcome to come and bring all your friends. If you like Star Wars, lightsabers, or just seeing HVX footage projected onto a big screen at full HD resolution, we've got a fun evening for you.

In the next few days I'll be writing up a little post on the HD workflow we've been dealing with, if anyone has an academic interest in such things (and, perhaps, if someone has a better idea for next time!).

We've also got a scoring session coming up for an original score we're having made for the film. We'll be recording at Capitol Records with a 60-piece orchestra on Sunday, February 11th. Already confirmed on percussion is M.B. Gordy, whose work can be heard on the soundtrack to the new Battlestar Galactica series. As I understand it, he is pretty much the exclusive provider of percussion to that series, so it's great to have him on board.

More information on the screening and the score at our website (http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com).

[robo3687]

sounds great dorkman...only wish i was in the US....and that i wouldn't be in hospital then...lol

[Edgen]

Hey hey! great to see you guys are still kickin' it in high gear! That's great that you were able to snag the drummers for BSG.. What better drum talent can you get than that?

I enjoyed the BTS preview and heck.. I may try and make it out to the showing on the 24th. The joy of living in the land of milk and honey :) I'm wondering if you they'll be showing my music version of 'Art of the Saber (http://www.justindurban.com/videos_art_of_the_saber.html)' or the original with Zimmer's track? Guess I'll just have to see!

Good luck fellas!

/j

[Kholi]

Are the ART OF SABER guys going to be there? I remember that fight from a few years back.

[Edgen]

Are the ART OF SABER guys going to be there? I remember that fight from a few years back.

Last time i talked with Clarence, he was still living on the east coast. Unless he's making a special appearance?

/j

[Kholi]

Ah darn! Well, that would still be cool

[Matt Sconce]

I have to say that Ryan Vs. Dorkman was a movie I showed to EVERYONE when I found it. It inspired me to delve deeper into VFX and I continued on to make Stricken on my DVX100b. I credit alot of it to that first time watching RVD. It got me into After Effects. I can't wait for RVD2! I have since gone on to own 10,000 worth of HVX glory and addons, work as a commercial editor and land a directing gig for a feature called "The Cracked limb" filming next year. Little did you know RVD would change so much for people. Seriously, it was one of the MAIn reasons I dove into AE and learned what I did. Thank you and good luck with RVD2!
Ryan and michael, I hope you enjoy Stricken as much as I enjoyed RVD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aap-11vrYaM

[AuditoryVisuals]

Miceael, is Ryan vs Dorkman 3 going to be shot at 4K on the RED ONE?

And another question, how long is Ryan vs Dorkman 2? Also, is the guy who killed you in the first one going to be in the second one?

[FREUDENBERG_FILMS]

I remmember some years back ( was it 4 ) I was looking at theses RVD shorts and tests and I did learn a lot for after effects from your site.

But why haven't you guys laid down the sabers and made something of your own creation and market that?
You can make a making of RVD I and II and sell it on DVD but will Mr Lucas allow you?

Cheers can't wait to see high rez verion on the HVX.

[DorkmanScott]

msconce: Wow, thanks for the kind words. You're welcome for whatever our little film may have contributed to your motivation, but of course we can't take any credit for your talent or passion. That's all you.

I saw Stricken a little while ago, clicking the link in your sig. It was great, especially for a first-time film project! Much better than my first attempt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeAtbrYVqqs) at the genre. Great lighting and visuals. I thought the pacing was a tad too slow, and the "twist" came a little too far before the end, but overall a great first effort.

AuditoryVisuals: With the jump from RvD to RvD2 being SD to HD, it seems only fitting for the next film to be 4K. :cool: But then again, we'll see if I can afford the RED when my number ultimately comes up. I'd like to at least get a mini35 adapter and lenses when the time comes.

That reminds me, I gotta get that workflow post up tomorrow.

It looks like with opening titles, but excluding closing credits, the film will be about 7 minutes long. "The guy who killed me" is actually a clone of Ryan (kind of an in-joke). There is only one of me and one of Ryan in the film, so either yes, we're both clones, or no, like the Roadrunner cartoons, we aren't really acknowledging our prior deaths. Pick the one you like better. :)

FREUDENBERG: This is a question we get a lot. Sometimes it's phrased "With all the support and donations you got, why not make something original?"

The thing is, we don't have support and donations for something original, we've got them for RvD2.

People liked RvD, we've always wanted to make an RvD2, so it seemed that now was the time that we'd get the most attention -- and not the fantasy "OMG awesome here's millions of dollars make a movie" attention that usually accompanies such endeavors. The simple fact is that this thing took us 6 months of production and post-production (and a full year if you want to count preproduction choreography and other prep). We want as many people to see it as possible, and now is the best time for that.

Don't get me wrong, we do want to be doing our own stuff. After this Ryan and I are done with lightsabers for a few years. It just so happened that RvD2 wanted to happen now.

As far as selling stuff, RvD has music that would cost us upwards of $50,000 to license and sell with the film on DVD. RvD2 will have an original score, but the sound effects of the sabers are still Lucasfilm. They never seem to actually care, but we don't want to take the risk. We can't sell the two films directly.

However, we do plan to sell a DVD filled with a crapload of behind-the-scenes material, tentatively including a production documentary, raw-to-final comparisons, and a shot-by-shot breakdown of the effects processes used in the film. Everyone who buys that DVD will also receive the two films on a separate disc as a "free gift." :happy:

[robo3687]

lol...free gift...love it...

[DorkmanScott]

Okay, so here's the much-promised discussion on the RvD2 tapeless workflow.

Ryan and I had been eyeing the HVX since Panasonic announced it in 2005, and when we made the choice to do RvD2, it seemed like the perfect reason to upgrade to the new camera. As hot as P2 sounded, however, it was not part of our original plan. At $800 or so for 10 minutes of footage, the card seemed to be prohibitively expensive, especially given the fact that we knew it was going to drop rapidly the way digital storage always does. At the time the Firestore drive was also still a pipe dream, so the plan was to tether the camera directly to a computer via Firewire and shoot that way.

We bought a brand-new (at the time) MacBook Pro and loaded it up with Final Cut Studio. We did some relatively successful tests of capturing directly while recording, but as we developed the fight and the camera angles, it started to become clear that we would be compromising the film by tethering it to a laptop, and certain camera moves would be almost impossible to achieve that way. After a great deal of debate and rationalization, we buckled down and picked up a 4GB P2 card.

We chose to shoot the film in 720p for a variety of reasons. The main reason was the ability to undercrank at 22fps, speeding up the fight ever so slightly without making it look too unnatural, a common practice in kung fu movies. As it turned out, even the slight undercrank made the movements look unnaturally fast, and with the exception of one shot, we ultimately decided to shoot at a normal 24fps.

Since we only had one P2 card, and the MacBook doesn't have a PCMCIA port, when the card filled up we had to stop shooting, hook up to the laptop, and dump everything off. While it sounds like a pain in the ass, this actually proved to be a blessing in disguise. We shot the film in August in Atlanta, Georgia. Our location was the interior of what is, by day, the Los Amigos tortilla factory. We're talking a concrete box in humid Atlanta in the middle of the summer, filled with ovens that have been running all day. We shot from around 8PM, when the sun went down, to around 5AM, when the first shift of employees came in to start their day.

With the exception of our first fighting shot, almost all the shots in the film are quite brief, and combined with the ability to erase takes that didn't work at all, we actually were able to shoot for several hours before filling up with ten minutes of footage. By that time we'd been sweating buckets, swinging sticks like crazy people, and we were more than happy to adjourn to the air-conditioned office we were using as our staging area and recharge while offloading the card. I believe most of the eight evenings we shot, we only dumped the card twice: somewhere around the middle of the shoot, and when we wrapped at dawn.

After shooting, with the footage loaded onto the laptop, we went out for breakfast, which usually meant Waffle House. Now, I had never seen a Waffle House before. They don't have them in California, or at least not in L.A.

When we got to Atlanta, our host Ruben (owner of the factory where we shot) told us there was a Waffle House on just about every corner. I've heard that saying before, but damned if there wasn't actually a Waffle House just about everywhere you looked. And, they're open 24 hours.

So we'd stumble in at around 5:30, 6AM each morning, sweaty and bleary-eyed, order, and start cutting together the night's work on the laptop. We could identify shots and performances that weren't quite working and would need a reshoot, and it was a massively important motivator to be able to see it coming together as we shot it.

It all went pretty smoothly, everyone here knows the wonders of non-linear editing and the ability to experiment that it gives you. It wasn't until after shooting wrapped and we got home to work on the FX that we ran into some difficulty.

This is kind of a long post, so I'll break here and come back tomorrow or this weekend with the post-production workflow.

[AuditoryVisuals]

Was there a lot of shots that "didn't work at all"? Hours of shooting and only 10 minutes of footage?

[DorkmanScott]

Was there a lot of shots that "didn't work at all"? Hours of shooting and only 10 minutes of footage?
I guess it would sound that way, but surprisingly no.

We approached this film with a rather different attitude and style than we did with the last one. The editing is paced a lot faster, with many of the shots lasting fewer than two seconds -- but hopefully not to the extent that it becomes disorienting.

We shot everything in specific coverage. We would decide that, for example, the next shot should cover three moves (or one, or five, or whatever). We'd figure out the best shot for that, practice the moves and the camera move a few times, and then shoot. We didn't bother slating or anything, so each time we rolled camera we probably rolled an average of five seconds. Three or four takes, on average, and then we'd move on to the next shot. Shooting like this, it takes quite some time to amass 10 minutes of footage.

Oh, I just realized I forgot to respond to a query:

Kholi: We gave the Art of the Saber guys an invitation to attend, but unfortunately it sounds like they won't be able to make it.

I didn't realize that there was a re-scored version of Art of the Saber!

Edgen: Do you have a high-quality version of Art of the Saber, with either track?

[kamikaze1213]

I can't wait for this. It's pretty exciting and I loved the work you guys did on RVD. I'll probably fly out from out from idaho next month to see this. Ryan really opened my eyes to what is really possible with a meager budget and some decent resources. My whole background has been in audio production over the last 15 years and I've just recently made the switch into film now with affordable HD set ups. I have to ask though, how were you guys dumping the footage from the P2 into the Mac? Or did you just go with a Windows based laptop? Anyway keep up the great work and I can't wait till next month.

[Jon Starr]

Huh, Dorkman is now on these boards. Hope to see you here more often! On the TFN boards you're one of the only individuals with... well... talent/experience/knowledge and I can say that I've learnt a lot from you and the others. I'm NitroBlade on those boards, not a big poster, but once in a while.

Can't wait for RVD2! Looks amazing!

After RVD2 do you have any projects lined up? Or are you trying to spend your time finding some work in the industry? Or both?

[Edgen]

Hey hey... Just wanted to see if anyone else was going to attend the screening on Saturday the 24th? I'll be there with a few friends.

and scott.. I wish I had a high quality version of the newly scored Art of the Saber, but that's all I got from the Ho brothers. (actually, the only version I have is actually mix in at the wrong spot, but they never got a chance to fix it.) (plus the vocals are a raw mix with no reverb which urks me everytime I watch it)

yup yup!
/j

[DorkmanScott]

Since some people here will find this interesting...

As you may know if you've checked the website, a few weeks ago we rented Capitol Studios for half a day and recorded the score to RvD2 with a 60-piece, professional orchestra.

A lot of people think it's awesome that we got an orchestra, but even I didn't really understand just how much like a "real" score it would sound.

Check out a 30-second preview of the score here (http://www.ryan-w.com/rvd/RVD2_score_preview.mp3).

[Edgen]

Wew hew! SOunds Fantastic! Can't wait to hear it to picture. Who's the composer for your project? Is it the drummer from BSG? orr..?

Kudos on getting your film score with a live orchestra :)

/j

[Edgen]

Congrats on the screening tonight fellas. GOod thing you found a power chord or I would have demanded my money back!!! :)

I think the world will enjoy your short and best of luck to it's success on the March 1st release.

Cheers!
/j

[KyleProhaska]

It's released and man is it hot. If anyone ever needs HVX footage that really sells it as a "film looking" cam then watch this fight. :) Congrats to Dorkman.

Check their site for details.

- Kyle

[DorkmanScott]

Yep, it's officially out and ready for viewing.

I recommend the HD version. YouTube screwed up the sound.

http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com

[MalcolmOng]

Coolio! I'm checking it out. Congrats on getting it done, guys!

[MalcolmOng]

Just watched it. Great job all around! The choreography and effects were movie grade. Now if only you guys could flip and stuff...Heh maybe we'll see that in RVD3

[triplej96]

It was great vfx are amazing...What all did you use for vfx just After Effects?

[Curtis_Rhoads]

That's some darn fine work there Michael. Smack Ryan on the back for me, and say good job as well!

I was waiting for this to come out Thursday, and then I ended up pulling an all nighter with my 3D application, and didn't get a chance to see it until late last night!

[Edgen]

hey guys! Congrats on the release of DVD2.. 90,000 views on uTube is definitely something to be proud of. Keep up the success and good luck on the bts and OST sales. What a Great way to make your money back. :)

Cheers!
/j

[DorkmanScott]

Just watched it. Great job all around! The choreography and effects were movie grade. Now if only you guys could flip and stuff...Heh maybe we'll see that in RVD3
I figure we've got about four years to train. Next time I'm hoping we can do some wire stuff. :happy:


It was great vfx are amazing...What all did you use for vfx just After Effects?
There were three shots with 3D elements in them, and I believe our 3D artists used Maya and rendered with mental ray. AfterEffects for the bulk of the work, with the occasional 3D track in boujou.


That's some darn fine work there Michael. Smack Ryan on the back for me, and say good job as well!
Thanks man, glad you liked it.


hey guys! Congrats on the release of DVD2.. 90,000 views on uTube is definitely something to be proud of. Keep up the success and good luck on the bts and OST sales. What a Great way to make your money back. :)
Thanks. I don't think we'll make much money off it, but every little bit helps.

[bagheadinc]

Kudos, Dorkman. I was a fan of the first when it came out and I just happened upon the second one while browsing through YouTube. I didn't realize you were a DVXuser. :D Keep up the good work.

[Noah]

over 200,000 hits on youtube already. That's pretty incredible. Great job guys.

[Tim Young]

great job on this! i really liked it. when justin (snodart) and i were first getting into digital filmmaking RvD blew us away, and this is definitely a worthy successor. loved the sparks on the lightsaber hits and the lightsaber-melting-metal effects. editing was nice and tight. i have a few quick questions:

how did your macbook do editing the 720p footage? justin and i are considering upgrading from the dvx to the hvx, but we have no experience with HD and always figured our computers couldn't handle it. we have powermac g5s and a top of the line macbook pro. were there any hiccups, or is it no different than editing SD footage? can you still do transitions, etc real time in FCP without rendering? is it different if you're shooting 1080p?

how will you handle scaling down the footage for the DVD? how do you go about downrezzing from 720p to 480p?

i know i could probably find the answers to these questions if i searched around a bit, but i figured since you just made the switch to HD and use the hvx and FCP, it would be great to get your perspective.

again, excellent job with this. what a huge endeavor with the score, which was outstanding. congrats!

[DorkmanScott]

It sounds like you've got everything you'll need to edit HD right out of the box. Our computer had no problem handling the 720p footage without pre-rendering. We never tried any dissolves, but we did throw color correction on pretty much every shot and those were still real-time effects. I never had to think about the fact that we were working in HD.

As far as 1080i, which we used for a few shots where we wanted a little more leeway in framing, there were a few hiccups. We had to pre-render the footage, but I assume that's only because the footage didn't match the sequence settings. Also, and somewhat more annoying, FCP's "advanced pulldown removal" doesn't work with 1080i/24pA. I guess there's too many lines of resolution or something, but whatever the reason, it didn't work. We had to do the pulldown removal in AfterEffects. (If anyone can explain where I went wrong, I'd love to hear it.)

Because we had such a heavy effects workload, we had to determine what the best intermediate compression would be, so that there was little to no generational loss between renders. Unfortunately, we discovered that even the so-called "lossless" codecs introduced noise and artifacts. Ultimately the decision was made to render everything with compression set to "None". That meant our 7 minute scene was 27GB on disk (and eventually 54GB, since we had both the raw and the rendered footage archived).

Final Cut was NOT able to handle all that uncompressed footage without rendering first. However, by the time we got to that stage, the cut was already locked, so it wasn't really necessary to be able to work in real time, we were just replacing the old footage in the timeline with the new.

One pain in the ass I want to mention that we just couldn't figure out: when rendering out of AfterEffects, and then importing into Final Cut, FCP would, for some reason, ignore the last frame of the video. Without fail. It just decided that frame didn't count for some reason. Again, if anyone can shed some light on that, it'd be stellar.

[Tim Young]

hmmm. now the switch to hvx is even more tempting. what about the issue of downrezzing to dvd? have you done that yet or figured out how you'll be doing it?

are there ways to submit films to fests in HD? how did you give your footage to the theater in LA to project in HD - on a hard drive? as far as i know, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray burners aren't available yet, so i'm just wondering how that's done.

[DorkmanScott]

hmmm. now the switch to hvx is even more tempting. what about the issue of downrezzing to dvd? have you done that yet or figured out how you'll be doing it?
Final Cut will do just fine, if you drop your HD footage into an SD timeline and render it out. It'll take care of scaling and everything for you. But FCP, unfortunately, can't introduce the 3:2 pulldown upon rendering. It'll do it in real-time when outputting to a monitor, or to tape, but for some reason it's not an option when you render a digital file. A lot of DVD programs can do "progressive" DVDs anyway, with the DVD player itself introducing the pulldown as necessary, so it may not be an issue. But if you HAVE to burn a pure NTSC signal (iDVD, for example, can't deal with 24p source), render it out through AfterEffects.


are there ways to submit films to fests in HD? how did you give your footage to the theater in LA to project in HD - on a hard drive? as far as i know, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray burners aren't available yet, so i'm just wondering how that's done.
DVD Studio Pro, the latest update, has introduced the ability to burn HD DVD projects with a standard DVD burner, compatible with many HD DVD players. I know a few people who downloaded the DivX version of RvD2 and did that, and it worked in their XBOX 360s.

But I don't know if most festivals will accept anything other than a standard DVD (some even continue to demand a VHS backup!). We were able to show our project in HD because we rented the theatre and hooked up our laptop to the projector. But even if you don't show it in HD, the quality is definitely noticable (heck, it's noticable in a YouTube window, and that's 1/4 the resolution of the source!).

All in all, I'm personally a major advocate for the Panasonic HVX. If anyone at Panasonic wants me to pimp it officially, you know where to find me. :laugh:

[Blood Angel]

Hey Dorkman,

nice to see you here. I've just been showing RvD2 to my dad and he was very impressed.

I personally like RvD2 a lot, for me it is like the fight in Episode 3 should have been. You perfectly show how destructive a Lightsaber can be, not just for cutting of limbs but for totally destroying your enviroment.

I read somewhere, that all the sparks were digital or added in post (besides that water thing, I saw that wire), is that right? If that is true, than that was a hell of a job compositing that because I havent noticed at all watching and still don't that it is post work.

RvD2 is just like RvD just impressing and is again inspiering me very much. I've been around the TF.N Fanfilms since 2000 I think and one of my first fanfilms was Broken Allegiance, BUT the movies like RvD or Art of the Saber just made me realize that I can do that too! I think therefor it is also Ryans and your fault, that I'm now where I am. A filmstudent in Munich, Germany. Sounds a bit stupid, but I was work like yours that made become what I am now.

AND I am participating in a pretty big Star Wars Movie for 2 years now (and YES, there are others than Tydirium) called "Operation Incom".

[DorkmanScott]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.


I read somewhere, that all the sparks were digital or added in post (besides that water thing, I saw that wire), is that right? If that is true, than that was a hell of a job compositing that because I havent noticed at all watching and still don't that it is post work.
Well, it's right and it's wrong. All of the sparks were added in post, but none of them were digital. We shot real spark elements with Bob Forward of Detonation Films (http://www.detonationfilms.com).

That includes the saber in the water. I'm not sure what wire you think you see -- you may be seeing a crack in the concrete floor -- but those sparks and steam, though real elements, are also composited.

[DorkmanScott]

Okay, so I wanted to talk about some of the less-noticable effects in RvD2. Some of these effects kind of need to be seen in motion, so we'll save that for the DVD, but I can mention a few here.

The first shot is the only one without a before-and-after comparison, as it's not really necessary. One major difference between the two films, of course, was that we shot and mastered RvD2 in 720p High Definition. This, plus the added color resolution of DVCPRO (4:2:2 as opposed to miniDV's 4:1:1) meant there was a lot more detail to deal with and pay attention to than there had been in the original RvD:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/DorkmanScott/050.jpg

Look closely at my glasses to see what I mean. In the original RvD, there was one shot, with three frames, where you could see the stunt blade through the glasses and I added a "refraction" over that blade. In RvD2, it happened a LOT more often. This is only one frame of a surprisingly large handful where it was necessary.

Okay, next shot:

The long dolly shot where some people think we should see reflections, they may not be entirely wrong. In the original shot you could actually see the shadows of the sabers very clearly in the reflective metal background. We didn't worry about prop shadows for most of the film, but in this case they were quite prominent, and so we removed them. We considered replacing them with reflections, but determined that it would be too distracting and call too much attention to itself, so we decided against it.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/DorkmanScott/069.jpg

In this next shot, aside from the obvious effects of adding damage to the wall, there's an effect that's less apparent (hopefully not at all). When I kicked him to push him back up against the wall, my arm swung forward to balance me. It was the arm holding the lightsaber, and though I initially just added the saber blade, we decided that it was too clear at that moment that with a flick of my wrist I could end the fight, with my arm in that position. So we opted to remove it entirely during the middle portion of the shot.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/DorkmanScott/083.jpg

Every shot where you see the wall has digital damage tracked to it. But this shot had a particular challenge. We shot without giving as much though as we should have to what was in the background of each shot. So not only do you see the wall in the shot, but you ALSO see a piece of machinery that we had moved against it to get it out of the way during the shoot. Instead of just tracking the damage to the wall, Ryan had to completely remove the machinery as well.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/DorkmanScott/133.jpg

For the shot where he cuts through my saber, he actually built an emitter with a damaged end that could spin freely, with a digital glow added, and sparks and smoke composited in. But one thing that may not be immediately apparent is, he only built the emitter, not an entire saber. Instead, we placed a plain silver tube under his foot, and lined up the emitter with that. We thought initially that it might not matter, but given the angle and the resolution of the shot, we decided it did, and composited the actual body of the saber into the shot, under his foot and behind the spinning emitter.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/DorkmanScott/188.jpg

We got the very last shot only moments before we had to leave and catch our flight at the airport. This meant that we got the shot in the afternoon, whereas the rest of the film had been shot in the middle of the night. There were some windows and skylights with sunlight streaming through them, and it was impossible, using only the available lighting, to expose both myself and the very reflective metal objects behind me correctly.

We opted to shoot exposed for me, of course, and then from the same camera position shot the machinery from several different exposures, trying to bring back the detail and remove the inconsistently blown-out highlights. I took an exposure I thought looked right, and tracked and composited it over the machinery.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/DorkmanScott/203.jpg

The shot is still probably brighter than it should be, but there's only so much you can do.

[FREUDENBERG_FILMS]

Hey doorkmanscott,

Im looking at buying your behind the scenes dvd but want to know whats on it.... On the website it states Shot-by-shot visual effects breakdowns of the film detailing the processes and unique challenges presented by certain shots.

How indepth is it, is it like a tutorial or more a breif explination? Will there be a tutorial on how the molten metal effects where done?

Do we get to see how you made your smoke and spark elements?

cheers watched the RVD2 short and loved it.... My fav part was the fight scene agains the metal wall..... sparks, molten metal and powder marks.... Love it....

cheers

Michael Freudenberg

[DorkmanScott]

Good question. The explanations are going to be fairly in-depth and go through the more complex shots, but they won't be what you'd call tutorials in the sense that they're not going to walk you through achieving the effect in any particular software solution.

So, for example, a breakdown might say something like "We took fractal noise, pumped up the contrast, and used that as a displacement map", and show you the effect of each particular change.

What the breakdown will NOT do is say "With your solid layer selected, go to the Effects menu, go down to Noise and Grain, and click 'Fractal Noise'. When the Effects Controls pop up, adjust the 'Contrast' slider" etc.

Basically, they will walk you through the process, not the procedure.

[FREUDENBERG_FILMS]

Could you tell me this dorkmanscott.

The molten metal effects when the sabers cut into that wall how where tehy created? do you have a tutorial on it or do you know of where I can get one...

Reason is in the next year or so I will begin putting tother my first feature length Tele movie which will be a sci fi peice. I have been looking for this tye of effect for blast hits.

Where they a 3D elemnt that was comped or a 2D element?

How much for you guys to put a special one off tutorial for me on how you made this elegant effect.

Mike

[DammitJanet]

Hey Michael. I wanted to let you know that I only recently came across the first RvD short, and I was blown away with your choreography. Very impressive movements. I have yet to watch the sequel, but I'm sure it's even better than the original. I have to admit though that I wasn't really excited about seeing another RvD. In all honesty, I was pretty disgusted with the idea at first. I guess with so many lightsaber movies (not to mention Star Wars fanfilms, which I'm not crazy about to begin with) on the internet, it's easy to get sick of them. That, and it just killed me to see so much money going into a project like that.

However, you guys did something that you're proud of, and if delivering a sequel is what the fans want, that's what they want. In that area I salute you both and wish you the best of luck on your future projects. I'm really looking forward to seeing some more original material from both of you.

[DorkmanScott]

That, and it just killed me to see so much money going into a project like that.
I understand the feeling, but unfortunately it's a catch-22.

In principle I would have loved to spend the money we spent on RvD2 on something else, a narrative short or something. But the only reason we had that money was because we had promised RvD2 and people who wanted to see it donated the budget. They didn't want "a film from the makers of RvD", they wanted RvD2. So that's what we delivered.


I'm really looking forward to seeing some more original material from both of you.
Just as a note, there is very little in RvD2 that is not, in fact, original material. All the footage, effects, choreography, foley, and music are original material. Only the concept of lightsabers and some of their sound effects are borrowed.

I know what you really mean to say, I just think we deserve some credit for originality. It's not like we re-cut existing footage and just stuck our names on it.

On that same note, we're working on a lot of non-lightsaber stuff right now. It's just a matter of which one comes to fruition first.

[DammitJanet]

Glad to see I wasn't misunderstood. Looking forward to what the future brings for you.

[David Jimerson]

Just watched this.

Thought the camera work was pretty dang good, and I'd like to see the 720p version.

I liked most of the FX -- some of it was very clever -- and the use of the lightsaber in ways you always wished they would have done in the movies. It looked like you thought out the implications of the weapon and the use of the Force pretty thoroughly. Good use of a few subtle gags. (There were a couple of spots where the sabers cast shadows.)

It seemed like good portions of the fight looked obviously choreographed, though, and a little backstory would have been nice. This second time around, you could have done a little more characterization.

[KyleProhaska]

In case some of you dont know, the RVD website has been updated with lots of new content!

http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com

Remastered Version of RVD1
High Quality Downloads of both films in different formats (included an ISO file)

Lots of goodies, give it a look.

- Kyle

[Charlie Anderson]

Man I saw the original RvD YEARS ago when I was doing research on doing a lightsaber fight. That choreography is NOT easy and needless to say I've learned a lot about filmmkaing since 4 years ago :)

[mentatDUKE]

Bump

Just noticed the DVD was released. Ordering now...