The HVX200 and the HVR-V1U

[Jamison]

After reading many threads and after much talk, I am going to ask the inevitable question. Which seems to be the better camera, the Panasonic HVX200 or the new Sony HVR-V1U, or maybe it is simply to early to tell. I have heard people going back and forth about this issue. I am here to see which camera is better without hearing any bias opinions. And now the whole "It appeals to different consumer" issue is gone because both cameras are dedicated to enhancing their film-like picture by utilizing 24p. Now the HVR-V1U is said to have more pixels but after a lot of reading I have learned that this is not all the case when comparing both cameras and their picture qualities because there are many more aspects that go into it when comparing image quality. Which is better?

[MovieSwede]

Look at as much footage from both cams and then decide wich one brings the images you like the most.

Other than that its basicly the DVCPROHD VS HDV discussion. Cheap storage media vs variable frame rates etc.

Myself thinks the HVX produces the nicest quality not maybe the higest res image but its 720P mode gives more filmlikes image than a 1080P mode on the V1. Buts thats only my opinion. You should decide for yourself.

But the motorcross slowmo footage from the HVX sold me on this cam.

[Clark]

Remember also, that the V1U boasts CMOS chips. A big plus in my mind! Oops, but those chips are only 1/4" — a major drawback for me. I want SHALLOW depth of field, not greater depth of field.

[Sean Michael]

I am leaning toward the V1U for the following reasons: portability (it's smaller & lighter than competitors), cheap storage (tape), HDMI-out, and the optional factory-designed hard drive storage.

For me the decision is between the V1U and the Canon A1. My only hesitation about the V1 from its specs is the 1/4-inch chips. But the upsides of the V1 may outweigh the drawbacks.

[Barry_Green]

It's way too early to tell. The V1U isn't even on the market yet, is it?

Even so, consider that the V1U only does 1080/24, 1080/30, and 1080/60i with compressed audio and the HDV format. The HVX does many more things with more channels of audio and more formats and more frame rates, all to a tapeless media. So they're different, and I believe they'll likely appeal to different customers.

[fantasticfilm]

Went to the launch in Singapore and looked at it (V1U) and although I did not get much time with it I can tell you that this camera is really not going to cut it for the more serious indie film guys because of the 1/4 inch chip.
Even the guy Sony brought in to demo the footage etc was like...." umm I really dunno why they didn't slap a bigger chip in?!!!....... but anyway it is their newest camera so you should buy it!!"
I was not impressed with the fact that all the special features like variable frame rates are in lower resolution.
Basically Sony have moved the CMOS chip 45 degrees to get extra pixels in-between each diagonal intersection which enhance quality. The hard drive is very costly and mounts clumsily on top like an afterthought rather than being thought out and intergrated for better balance.
HDV seems to be an interim product when you see all the better codecs coming out with better bit-rates so I just gotta wonder if it is worth forking out for this baby when you can hold out and see what we land in 2007 NAB.
Not trying to slur what is effectively nifty technology, but really - once again Sony who could wipe the floor with the tech they have - would rather just smudge a camera idea off the drawing board and give us what amounts to a "pacifier" for all the milking sony infants that cannot ween themselves off "So(n)y Milk"

[TimurCivan]

Canon is gonna win BIGTIME.

Panasonic needs an AVCHD 1080P Camera BAD.

I would Greedily take a nice High dynamic range, light sensitive, Latest greatest technology 1CHIP 1/2" or 2/3" Fixed lens camera. 108024p 72024p 1080i. Thats allllllllllllll i need.

[AuditoryVisuals]

I think that the 1/3" sensors with the 960x540 photosites would have much more sensetivity than 1/4" sensors at 960x1080. If you think the low light performance on the HVX200 is bad, wait until you see the V1U footage in low light.

Also, for the HVX200's variable framerates, it's not native. For example, 24p is 60p with 36 frames chopped out. If you want variable frame rates on the V1U, shoot 24p 30p or even 60i (then deinterlace of course) then chop out how many frames you want to in post.

[TimurCivan]

Also, for the HVX200's variable framerates, it's not native. For example, 24p is 60p with 36 frames chopped out. If you want variable frame rates on the V1U, shoot 24p 30p or even 60i (then deinterlace of course) then chop out how many frames you want to in post.


no its real 24p. the 24 frames however are RECORDED in the 60p steam. so its recorded that way. but its actually at a perfect 24 htz clokc rate.

[Barry_Green]

Yeah, I'm nost sure what AuditoryVisuals is getting at. Record 720/24pN, only 24 frames get recorded, there are no frames to "chop out" or whatever.

The Sony doesn't record as 24fps, it records as 60i with the 24fps signal embedded in the 60i transport stream (same as HVX in "1080/24p" mode). But it doesn't have the option to do 24pA, so extracting pulldown will require the NLE editors to update themselves.

As for low light etc., Adam Wilt's initial test finds the V1 about two stops slower than the HVX (meaning needing 4x as much light to achieve comparable brightness). Don't know about noise performance yet though.

[AuditoryVisuals]

I got my information from Wikipedia. It just shows you how unreliable it is. Probably someone who hates the HVX who put it on there.

[escozooz]

I wonder why sony is not using 1/3 chips with their new CMOS sensor. If there actually is more dynamic range and its 24p then I'm sold. I am anxious to see some HVX vs. V1U comparisons.

Cheers,

Matt

[redfuse]

I got my information from Wikipedia. It just shows you how unreliable it is. Probably someone who hates the HVX who put it on there.

How can someone hate a camera, or any piece of equipment? I know these people are out there but I just can't grasp the idea. Did it sleep with his sister?

[Arcwave]

Does any of the new Canon's shoot native 24P?

[Barry_Green]

No, but it's close enough that it's not even worth arguing about. 24F delivers the same motion as genuine 24p.

[Emanuel]

BTW, Barry. What do you think of the de-interlace hypothesis on the 50i stream coming from the new palmcorder HV-10 (PAL version) in order to achieve the 25p graal? Or even to shoot at the 1/25th mode?

It will drop 50% of the vertical resolution, isn't it?... So, will it be acceptable? What do you think?

[TimurCivan]

As for low light etc., Adam Wilt's initial test finds the V1 about two stops slower than the HVX (meaning needing 4x as much light to achieve comparable brightness). Don't know about noise performance yet though.


Holy crap! THe hvx is slow as it is....

[Barry_Green]

BTW, Barry. What do you think of the de-interlace hypothesis on the 50i stream coming from the new palmcorder HV-10 (PAL version) in order to achieve the 25p graal?
Not sure what you mean by "graal"? de-interlacing 50i properly (using "interpolate", not "blend") will deliver the same motion signature as 25p, but at a significant resolution penalty.

Or even to shoot at the 1/25th mode?
Problem with that is that the motion becomes too smeary to look filmlike. It causes the same resolution drop as de-interlacing (actually usually worse, because 1/25 usually employs field doubling rather than the in-between quality you can get from a good interpolator). So you would get less res and you'd get smearier motion, so I'd tend to avoid the 1/25 mode.

[Bucknfl]

I just got a chance to fool around with a v1 for a couple of hours in my kitchen. It looks to be about 3 stops slower than my dvx100b. I'll be using it on a documentary so we will have to light all interiors. I can't imagine using this camera with a 35mm lens adapter unless you are shooting outdoors.

[TimurCivan]

Well ican tell yo uthis, lighting with a HVX200 and a 35 adapter is Tough. your key has to be a 1K

[reflex]

Im wondering what about the Canon H1... I know its interlaced, but the 'frame' mode seems to be pretty legit. and that you can switch out lenses. What types of lenses can you use and where do you get them? Are they lenses you can buy from Canon? I mean seems to me that you could get what we've all been wanting with that setup.

am i wrong?

I now use an FX1 with a L35A. I would much rather have the H1 now, and use the Frame mode and have the ability to switch out lenses instead of use the adapter. Plus XLR inputs, which I dont have wtih the FX1.

I mean for me it looks like the HVX or the H1 would be the choice. But Im stuck. since the HVX shoots real progressive mode and has varialbe frame rates at 720, but you're stuck with one lens. So then I would want to go with the Canon since , to me, lenses are very important. BUT then you are working with HDV.... such a decision...

[MovieSwede]

Yea the free choise is really giving people headeche.

It was easier on the old DVX100 days. Only one progressive camera.


Even if you switch lenses on H1 its still a 1/3 sensor and a 35mm lens will only work as a zoom basicly. The depth of field would be the same.


But the choise is really easy for you. DVCPROHD, Variable frame rates and uncompressed audio against HDV, More lense options and shoulder mount.

You also have the A1 that dont have changable lenses and dont have DVCPROHD. That way you dont have to choose between the 2.

;)

[reflex]

Yea the free choise is really giving people headeche.

It was easier on the old DVX100 days. Only one progressive camera.


Even if you switch lenses on H1 its still a 1/3 sensor and a 35mm lens will only work as a zoom basicly. The depth of field would be the same.


But the choise is really easy for you. DVCPROHD, Variable frame rates and uncompressed audio against HDV, More lense options and shoulder mount.

You also have the A1 that dont have changable lenses and dont have DVCPROHD. That way you dont have to choose between the 2.

;)

Yeah, you really can't go wrong with the HVX. But Im also very impressed with the H1 footage. the A1 is basically like my fx1 so I wouldnt be getting that.

[TimurCivan]

i never understood why people got jazzed that the XL$%^ camera, had interchangeable lenses. That just means you have to spend more money to get a fully functional camera. Either the Wide angle isnt wide enoug or the telephoto isnt telephoto enough.

I like the HVX's Really wide wide angle. Sure sometimes i wish it had more Telephoto reach, i can live without a telescope attached to the camera permanently.

[reflex]

i never understood why people got jazzed that the XL$%^ camera, had interchangeable lenses. That just means you have to spend more money to get a fully functional camera. Either the Wide angle isnt wide enoug or the telephoto isnt telephoto enough.

I like the HVX's Really wide wide angle. Sure sometimes i wish it had more Telephoto reach, i can live without a telescope attached to the camera permanently.

Yeah, I understand that. and me too. I was just jazzed cuz i thought you could put all kinds of lenses on there, meaning, no need for an adapter. like those prime lenses. I was thinking then, a useable HDV format, a nice 24F mode, good audio ins, etc...

but if thats not the case.

[MovieSwede]

Actually I could think of 3 cams in my arsenal.

HVX200
XH-A1
XL-H1

But putting a 35mm lens will not me a miracle solution for the H1. On the other hand the H1 can produce faboulus looking images with its standard lens. And so can the A1.

[reflex]

yeah, understandable and true. I was just looking to see if there was a cam out there that can use interchangeable prime lenses that was in the 4-8K $ range. I've never heard of one so far.

I believe they use a GY-HD110U for the show '24'. so they must use a lens adapter as well.. right? I guess the only option as of now, is to actually make the leap to rip apart a cam and mod it to work that way.

[Barry_Green]

The JVC is the only interchangeable-lens HD camera in that price bracket. From what I understand they used it for some background plates in "24"; they'd been using the Sony Z1 for Season 5 for the background plates (projected on screens for their in-car shots) and switched to the JVC. I don't know if they're using a lens adapter with the JVC for those background plates; doesn't really seem necessary.

"24" is shot on 35mm film cameras, so no lens adapter necessary for those obviously.

[CraigMelville]

I tried some quick test today with my DVX100ap, a V1 and the Z1 and I found that you could crank the gain much more than I expected without as much noise as I was seeing on the DVX or the Z1. Guys I've spoke to claim that they've shot with 9bd gain in and watched it back on High res monitors and thought that the pictures were acceptable. I'll have to do some more tests to confirm this but I've read about this before. I think the CMOS chips can be pushed harder electronically for some reason. I think I'll have to see what other side effects there are.

Also it reminded me how terrible the 16:9 pictures are on the DVX 100!

[CraigMelville]

Sorry, just to clarify my comments above regarding gain refer to the V1.