Re-record tapes - Ok or not?

[Hebegb]

This may be addressed elsewhere, but my search of the forums turned up nothing.
I am interested in opinions on rerecording tape, DV or otherwise. I'm not concerned with audio dubbing, just things like video quality, mechanical effects on the drum/heads (dirt/wear, etc.) and the max number of re-records recommended, if any, for pro-quality DV tapes. Recording over a tape that came from the same machine vs a different one, and so on.
This subject has been in the back of my head ever since I began recording reel-reel audio some forty years ago.

Any input on this is appreciated ...

[J_Barnes]

MiniDV tapes are comparatively cheap, and as such it's better to be safe then sorry. I'm not so familiar with the DVX's tape path, so I can't honestly say if the recording mode is any more abrasive then playback, but I'm not a big fan of recycling any sort of tape stock.

Virgin tape just works better. Every time you playback or record on a tape, it loses capacity through raw friction. In my mind, the DV tape width is so minute that it can't afford to lose any magnetic real estate. Actual practice may prove this to be a negligible issue, but I'd prefer to be paranoid then have unnecessary dropouts.

In theory, reusing the same tapes could lead to an unusual buildup of ferrous oxide on the tape path and heads, but that’s going to happen with extended use anyway.

So, I guess my answer is that I don’t do it.

[Scottdvx100]

For the price of video tape doesn't seem to be much point in reusing them, especially if you have any need for quality. I know they recycle tapes where I used to work but those were just for making quick dubs and things. If you're shooting, tape is the least expensive item.

[scottchapin]

Not

[24Peter]

My experience: I've re-recorded over probably 20 MQ tapes (some as many as three times) recently and didn't have one drop-out or other problem. Even shot some "mission critical" stuff with a used tape. No problems at all.

[Hebegb]

Ok. thanks for the input! I'll probably not be re-recording unless I have no other choice. Although, if I immediately see a flaw in a long shot I might just rewind and reshoot if I'm low on tape.
Thanks again.

[andybiz_2005]

Hi everyone, I've been following this thread,

I'm also unsure if reusing the same tape to record over & over, maybe 3 times or more will cause the camera's recording head to wear out faster. I use Panasonic miniDV tapes, which uses the dry type of lubricant.

I am wondering if I use the same tape to record on for 3 or more times, will this also wear out the lubricant on the tape, thereby causing more friction on the recording head? Will the lubricant on the miniDV tape wear out after more than 2 or 3 recordings & will this eventualy spoil my camera's recording head?

Thanks & much appreciation to those who can answer this.

Andrew

[bilgami]

i say if you do reuse them keep to no more than 3 passes per tape and maybe even black the tape when you are done with it before reuse.

[Vampiresoup]

How do you black the tape and reset the timecode?

[bilgami]

i dont reset the time code while blaking but when i shoot my tc starts on all zero.

[Vampiresoup]

how do you black a tape though?

[dop16mm]

put on lens cap, hit record.

[FilmMakerr]

Its not really easy to buy MQ tapes which are $5 a piece to shoot everytime, I mean, its different when you're shooting a movie or something important, but what if you're just out practicing, shooting random stuff just to feel how the camera works.

[Vampiresoup]

haah. ok. I thought there was a special way to just reset the time code or wosmthing.

[Gordon JL]

The real question is; whether or not re-recording over and over again hurts the CAMERA itself, not the tape; because there are a lot of instances where I don't need quality footage; I simply want to test something -- would doing this hurt the camera's heads for example (or any other parts for that matter)?

[sebastian]

I think that 'hard' reusing tapes is harmful for video head. Lube (no matter dry lube or wet lube) on tape's surface doesn't last forever.
Maybe I'm wrong, but approx. 5 times reusing PRO tapes should be harmless.

[NewYorkLion]

Look folks, these tapes a 5 bucks each, what is 5 bucks in the grand scheme of things? once you starting earning scale pay with your dvx you're going to be pulling down 3-600 bucks a day, and that's without rental. So just shoot on clean tape. Because what happens if when you finally do get a sweet paying gig, and then THAT's the day your DVX starts dropping out. Take it from me, MTV is not going to be happy when you give them a tape with dropouts on it.

Oh, and getting a path alignment is going to cost around 300 dollars, just so you know.

[andybiz_2005]

Hi folks,

Well, I've read the posts here. Quite interesting. May I have a word on DV tapes? In the US, tapes may be much cheaper than from where I live. Panasonic miniDV tapes (AY-DVM60FF) are sold in my country for USD15.50. This is the retail price. However, I've made friends with the shop owner there & the boss there is giving us dealer price for the tapes. So, each tape we get from there costs USD5.26. If not, we would have to pay USD15.50 per tape, which is quite pricy, since my videography business is small & not many shooting engagements all the time.

However, I am concerned about whether reusing tapes 3-4 times actually wear out the lubricant & increase the friction between tape & recording head. What do you all think? Barry, any comment on this? Thanks.

Another thing, in my total package fee for a videoshoot, should I also charge the clients for the miniDV tapes if I am to give it to them, or should I make it my company policy NEVER to give out or sell our source miniDV tapes to clients who request it, simply because the tapes & it's recorded source belongs to the company, & secondly, I don't want to run the risk of having the tape land up in maybe a competitor's company, say another videography company. It could happen. What are your views & opinions on this?

Andrew

[MiniMan]

My DVX heads are clogged after some 5-7 tapes that has been used twice. Don't know if it has anything to do with the re-using though. Total head hours are 283.

[andybiz_2005]

Well, for me, I just completed a 2-day corporate shoot with my DVX. Just prior to this important shoot, I got my DVX's recording thoroughly cleaned at my local Panny Service Center. Over the two days, I shot a lot of footage comprising of 12 tapes in total. 3/4 of the 12 tapes used where already reused, or re-shot on 3 times before.

So far, when I reviewed the footage from the tapes, there were no reported drop-outs. The images looked just as clear as when using a completely new miniDV tape.

[KevinPeeples]

From my experience, TDK tapes seem to have more dropouts when I record over them a second time, and I havent had any bad experiences with Panny tapes, but I figured if TDK gave me drop outs, I might as well stay safe and buy new tapes. Sony tapes have sometimes given me problems when recording multiple times, but I have never recorded over a tape more than once.
Just my experiences.....

[andybiz_2005]

Thanks KevinPeeples for sharing. It's good that we can share views & experiences. So far I've had absolutely no problem with Panny tapes, even though the specific tape model I'm using is not a master tape, but it still gives good footage.

[NewYorkLion]

Andy,

not sure what it's like where you are, but as far as I know, in the US it's considered very bad form to use a pre-shot tape for a client. for yourself, if you want to risk it, sure, but when someone is paying you money to work, you should really be giving them fresh tape.


Well, for me, I just completed a 2-day corporate shoot with my DVX. Just prior to this important shoot, I got my DVX's recording thoroughly cleaned at my local Panny Service Center. Over the two days, I shot a lot of footage comprising of 12 tapes in total. 3/4 of the 12 tapes used where already reused, or re-shot on 3 times before.

So far, when I reviewed the footage from the tapes, there were no reported drop-outs. The images looked just as clear as when using a completely new miniDV tape.

[ericcosh]

I will second that. My policy is really quite simple. Whenever you're on a client shoot, only use new tapes. For me that would only be MQ's. If you're just wanting stock footage, archive, testing, etc... then use your older tapes.Years ago, it wasn't a very good policy to reuse VHS tapes, or even S tapes because they were analog. With digital tapes, it really is a different story. For myself, I've used previously recorded tapes for the above mentioned reasons and have never had a problem.

I contribute that to the fact that I only use one brand of tape. Always!!!! I've never had a head clog on digital since using the MQ tapes by Panasonic.

[ramsaur]

it's ok to re-record over a mini dv tape a couple of times but then you need to stop because it happened to me. i re-recorded over a tape about 2 times and the third time i was filming a great movie and then when importing it started to screw up so yeah it would be best if you only re-recorded over it once

[ericcosh]

The only thing I would add to this thread is that just remember, for the most part, things that you read on this subject are subjective. There really are no absolute experts. Over the years, I've talked about this subject with some of the top tape so-called experts, and you know what? None of them have an absolute answer as to how many times you can record, or re-record over a digital tape.

As an example, when Sony first came out with the VX1000, one of their great sales pitches at NAB that year was that they had re-recorded the same tape for 5,000 times without any dropout or glitches. Now how true is that??? Who knows, I"m certainly not going to ruin 4 sets of heads just to prove it.

I will stick to my original statement. For safety purposes and just plain common sense, tape is the cheapest part of your entire production. Use only new tapes for client paid services. As for the use, and re-use of pre-recorded tapes, that's up to you.

[CORUSA Design]

100% No...NOPE NOPE NOPE...

It is not ok to rerecord over minidv tapes, or any dv tapes for that matter. The information is recorded digitally. When you rerecord over them, you can notice artifacts, and dropped frames when capturing on future rerecords. Glitchy bars and distorted audio tend to appear no matter how good a camera or tape you are using, it will happen if you rerecord

::: Connor

[Lake Films]

Same here, use new, especially if it's something important...:)