Saw images from 6 cameras today...

[evinsky]

Dalsa Origin, Thompson Viper, Sony F950, Arri D20, Panavision 35mm and the Red 0.1 (Since it's not the Red 1 yet).

I will offer a completely subjective evaluation in order of least to best...

6.Viper
5.D20
4.F950
3.Dalsa
2.35mm
1.Red

There is a little apples to oranges comparison here because the Red footage was not identical to the other 5 cameras and was being projected at 4k Vs. the others 2k but I did say it was a subjective evaluation.
However the Red footage stayed fresh in my mind as I watched the ASC/SMTPE screening at the Pickford center and I couldn't help but think OH MY FCUKING GOD! is this really it. The Red footage was perfectly clean in comparison, with all the detail and dynamic range I saw in the 35mm without even a trace of noise in any level of the signal. If anything that's my biggest criticisim, I'll never shoot the Red camera at the native ISO it's just so scary clean as to be a little freaky. Either that or I'll add it later.
The biggest surprise was how awfull the Viper looked. I think they must have had some back focus issues or something. The Arri D20 was also a dissapointment, very contrasty and grainy, nice DOF though.

Red reservation holders rejoice, this battle station (Ahem) this Mysterium sensor is now the ultimate power in the universe, I suggest we use it!:Drogar-Love(DBG):

[Jannard]

That's what I'm talking about! I happen to agree with your assessment.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

The whole digital cinema camera "race" can be rolled into one question: how many gasps were there in their audience?

[Matt De Jesus]

Now put the price tag of each camera listed compared to Red!

[evinsky]

I'm guessing here.

Camera body only.
6.Viper $60K
5.D20 Not available but probably $135k
4.F950 $90K
3.Dalsa I have no idea but lets say $100k+
2.35mm $135K (for an Arricam ST since you can't buy a Panavision)
1.Red, if you don't know by now you're on the wrong forum.

[zakforrest]

viper= 60 grand for ten minutes

[Y.Goh]

....The Arri D20 was also a dissapointment, very contrasty and grainy, nice DOF though....Can you please define by 'very contrasty', do you mean large dynamic range?

[zakforrest]

the comparisons were awful. i dont even think they conducted the tests properly. there were JAGGIES on the FILM projection as well as the 2k projection. the D20 sometimes looked like tthe sharpen filter was on FULL BLAST and othertimes it looked allright. everyone at the ASC seemed like they were either hopeful that RED would fail, or they were so old they didnt even have a clue, or knew how to get online, and so all they do is go to functions like that where they get brainwashed by the corporate mouthpieces. the man from thompson was telling me that, "once you pay for all your accessories etc" on the red camera it will end up being the same price as if i chose to shoot with a viper! it doesnt make any sense. and all these old men were around me, listening and nodding their heads and thinking they were LEARNING information about hot new camera technology (lies?) it was hilarious.

to a full theater audience during the presentation, "daryn okada" called the red camera the "what color" camera and then said something about santa klaus and how he hasnt "seen" a red camera yet. also one of the cameras they were projecting images from (the sony f-950) has since been TAKEN OFF THE MARKET because of the LEAD in the camera body. i dont see how someone can be so anti red, so hopeful that it fails, and yet be into all these other horrible cameras that give you diseases when you touch them haha. also they said dalsa was not there to take questions because of "illness" which i dont get, how can a whole company become ill, did they touch the sony f-950? da ha.

all the footage from the "tests" was unsexy girls doing really unsexy stuff with martini's. it was SO funny. red and milk, projected nice, looking good in every way possible, with energetic Ted. --> horrible camera tests, unsexy chicks holding unsexy martinis with jaggies.... and ultra boring, long speeches from unenergetic people ;(

i could feel the inspiration being sapped from my veins

i dont understand how everyone at the ASC seemed totally uninformed and hopeful that RED will fail. how can you be a cinematographer and not want red to become the best it can be? how can you be shooting tests of all the digital cameras out there and not be interested in red?

also, at the red screening, i overheard someone in the aisles afterwards talking about how it was all smoke and mirrors, and how they could never get the camera to really fit inside the body they showed slides of!!!!

so SONY's camera that was "tested" is not on the market anymore. and the Genesis was not in the tests AT ALL. viper will soon be ViperPlus. Red is around the corner. but hey, they DID say that the sony F-23 will be available (hopefully, it might change) at the end of summer 2007... so we got that going for us... =p

also the man from arri was showing me the D-20. there is a constantly moving mirror inside, even when on standby mode, so that you can look through the optical viewfinder.. i didnt really understand to be honest, i just smiled and laughed a little because i thought it was a little weird and cool to look into the lens (from the front of the camera) and see the thing spinning. he took that as excitement, and proceeded to tell me how they treated this whole thing "as a film camera" from the very beginning and thats why the mirror is in there, etc... and how its just like an arri 435 in a lot of ways.. well i think that is kind of insane... to make a digital cinema camera and keep it as similar to a film camera as possible. the D-20 is a BEAST. i cant imagine why anyone would want to use it over the viper. the viper is TINY. the D-20 is ridiculous, its humongous, its like a giant film camera, with some moving parts. its insane. i dont get it! red conquers all. and going after a camera as a digital cinema camera, not a film camera, from the beginning, is totally the way to go. long live red. and again, dangerous LEAD in sony's camera!! hahahahahaah

[polispol]

I've done tests with many of that cameras (Except for the red...) and I prefer the Viper much more than a F950, a D20 and just below of a panavision genesis...

[Homersapien]

I actually think the whole thing is very sad. Jim and the rest of the people who are working on Red have been very supportive of other cameras yet there is still an obvious distain for the project and perhaps most sadly of all many of these people are professionals within this industry. Jeff Kreines was not treated with the same distain when creating the Kinetta so I just don't get it - even though his camera appears to have been shelved at least for the foreseeable future.

The only thing I can understand they dislike is the manner in which the camera has been marketed and the typical user that will be adopting it. Many of the people here at DVXUser are referred to as "Cheerleaders" (That one straight out of Jeff Kreines own head) and I don't believe we are seen to represent any significant part of the movie making chain.

More so than ever I hope and pray everyone at Red will be able to live up to their concepts and deliver something that users, especially those from this board, can adopt, learn and educate others who currently seem so unwilling.

I think it is very sad that the football mentality of "my team is better than yours" should ever enter the head of a professional within the movie making industry concerning an exciting product such as Red's.

"Go Team Red" - Removes tongue from proverbial cheerleading cheek!

[Stephen Williams]

I'm guessing here.

Camera body only.
2.35mm $135K (for an Arricam ST since you can't buy a Panavision)
.

Hi,

A Konvas for $700, a Mitchell from $2000. Arri II from $1500, Arri III from $8000 Arri BL from $8000.Film cameras are just a box that houses and moves the film.

Stephen

[laguun]

Hi,

A Konvas for $700, a Mitchell from $2000. Arri II from $1500, Arri III from $8000 Arri BL from $8000.Film cameras are just a box that houses and moves the film.

Stephen i have to agree completly with stephen here.
i am certainly not biased anti-digital. however, i was always -highy sceptical- of using HDV, DV instead of 35mm. we have 2 * ARRI II here an they shoot excellent images. we don´t use them often, as the stock is what makes 35mm costy, and we have cinealta in house. 35mm was used here mainly when we needed shallow DOF and couldn´t shoot it wide open from distance with the 2/3 cinealta.

if you use a old 35mm camera however, be aware that they are really noisy. so blimping (or even camera booting) them is a must for sound.

if someone is interested, we will probably sell one or two Arri 35 IIB (with mags etc) when red ships for >~1500$.

[zakforrest]

homersapien yes

[jahlion]

I actually think the whole thing is very sad. Jim and the rest of the people who are working on Red have been very supportive of other cameras yet there is still an obvious distain for the project and perhaps most sadly of all many of these people are professionals within this industry. Jeff Kreines was not treated with the same distain when creating the Kinetta so I just don't get it - even though his camera appears to have been shelved at least for the foreseeable future.

The only thing I can understand they dislike is the manner in which the camera has been marketed and the typical user that will be adopting it. Many of the people here at DVXUser are referred to as "Cheerleaders" (That one straight out of Jeff Kreines own head) and I don't believe we are seen to represent any significant part of the movie making chain.

I would make a guess here and say that Jeff Kreines is a little bitter because he probably already spent a bunch of his own money on creating the Kinetta camera. Now he is realizing that he can't compete with Red since he was going to sell the Kinetta for $65k (almost 4 times as much), and all the money he spent on R&D is wasted.

[gunleik]

I would make a guess here and say that Jeff Kreines is a little bitter because he probably already spent a bunch of his own money on creating the Kinetta camera. Now he is realizing that he can't compete with Red since he was going to sell the Kinetta for $65k (almost 4 times as much), and all the money he spent on R&D is wasted.

I - for one - feel very gratefull towards mr Kreines and SI. Red is not so much a revolution as a natural evolution of digital cameras where Panasonic, Dalsa, Sony, Apple, Cineform, Canon, Kinetta & SI (to mention some) have put down the main concepts for Red to build on. (This is said with no disrespect to the tremendous work done by the Red team).

The basics concepts - even in form factor to some extent - from the Kinetta can be recognized in the Red.

Think: RAW images and an IT based recording/post solution. Giving a relatively cheap workflow from set to finished post.

None of these concepts are Red "firsts", but it seems SI & Red are the ones that have come the longest in figuring out a solution for the total equation.

One of the problems is that you'll need a strong economical backbone to survive R&D, but even with the best product, you'll fall short without economical muscle and solutions for marketing.

My bet on Red is basically based on my assumption that mr Jannard is good at hiring people, knows a lot on how to market a product and create buzz, and the fact that he - or someone around him - are capable of budgetting. He has a record of making money, and that is actually pretty comforting, because that implys to me that Red can become a stayer in the game.

BUT I see no reason to spite Kreines for the effort and to warming up people to new concepts. I saw a quote from David Stump (I think) on the CML list (From my head):

It's easy to spot the settlers, it's the ones with arrows in their backs.

No wonder people get a bit grumpy.

Gunleik

[evinsky]

HKSC, you need to start posting a few more thoughts at a time. Your hogging the thread.

[Homersapien]

Removed as off topic

[lpcvideo1]

Yeah, it's getting hard to read. Thanks HKSC.

[Homersapien]

Removed as off topic

[donatello]

anytime you have a profession that uses expensive tools ( which become elite) and only few can get their hands on it to use/learn, that when a new product that is good becomes available at a price that persons in/out of that profession can buy -those in that profession do not take kindly.
one goes to work - uses a 150k camera or down the road a RED - they worked their way up the ladder over many years as AC/operator/DP - drives home and see the kid next door in his/her garage with a new RED ...

until RED ships the nay-sayers will continue to feed the market that RED isn't going to happen ... until RED ships we'll have to hear their talk and we all know we ain't going to be walking their walk !! IMO their ( naysayers) days are numbered ..

[im.thatoneguy]

if someone is interested, we will probably sell one or two Arri 35 IIB (with mags etc) when red ships for >~1500$.

I would be interested. Depending on when you sold them.

- Gavin

[pablovi]

I'm guessing here.

Camera body only.
6.Viper $60K
5.D20 Not available but probably $135k
4.F950 $90K
3.Dalsa I have no idea but lets say $100k+
2.35mm $135K (for an Arricam ST since you can't buy a Panavision)
1.Red, if you don't know by now you're on the wrong forum.

Well, in 35mm you can buy a way cheaper camera with good lenses and still have the same quality as the Panavision. An old BL2 or Arri 3, even an Arri2C give excelent images. That's one of the advantages you don't have to change the camera that often if ever.

[jaysedai]

I liken the anti-Red sentiment to the anti-Final Cut folks. "How can a tool that cheap, possibly compare to my $150,000 Avid? And besides, I still have along way to got pay this off, so no way I'm switching to something cheaper." And earlier than that when the first Video Toaser arrived in 1990, then again when QuickTime started to mature and become a powerful tool for real production work.

Disruptive technologies are always met with extreme skepticism by old schoolers. The rest of us just jump right in and profit from their hesitation.

Avid users: I'm not trying to start a platform war, or rag on you (okay maybe a little bit), just trying to make a point.

Jeremy
Red One #68

[evinsky]

Well, in 35mm you can buy a way cheaper camera with good lenses and still have the same quality as the Panavision. An old BL2 or Arri 3, even an Arri2C give excelent images. That's one of the advantages you don't have to change the camera that often if ever.

Of course you can buy a cheaper 35mm camera but the one I mentioned is comparable to the one used in the side by side test. Also the lenses they used were very expensive Zeiss primes.

[TimurCivan]

anytime you have a profession that uses expensive tools ( which become elite) and only few can get their hands on it to use/learn, that when a new product that is good becomes available at a price that persons in/out of that profession can buy -those in that profession do not take kindly.
one goes to work - uses a 150k camera or down the road a RED - they worked their way up the ladder over many years as AC/operator/DP - drives home and see the kid next door in his/her garage with a new RED ...

..

I agree with you 100%. but i dont think it will be "kids next door" it will be small production comapnies, that used to produce $30,000, Small HD Spots, and could never afford film, will suddenly be able to produce TOP quality images. the market will flood with Talent and guys at the top stand to lose ( a little tiny bit) of their "stable" work to smaller companies that can now produce on that level.

i unfortnatly cant affrod a red camera now. but i do love cinematography, and if my career picks up the way we ALL hope our careers will, i will certainly take that step.

[Illya Friedman]

However the Red footage stayed fresh in my mind as I watched the ASC/SMTPE screening at the Pickford center and I couldn't help but think OH MY FCUKING GOD! is this really it.

Evan, the Red footage, by comparison, was not passed through the very unkind workflow done by the fellows at Disney. It really is apples to oranges. I don't think any manufacturer was particularly pleased by the way in which their footage was treated, other than Kodak (who probably shouldn't have been). quickie LUT, DNxHD, down-rez then up-rez..etc!

I was happy to hear comments from all those in the know- questioning the thought process and post workflow of the test. The same phrases I kept hearing uttered after the screening (in several different variations) was "That test wasn't fair to anything, including film." and "Impossible to draw any conclusions, other than a blatant bias towards film."

My schedule is really tight right now, as there are a couple big projects prepping this month. However, when things slow down around the Christmas holiday, I'll try to arrange a screening for a people who saw the shootout this week and now have a distorted impression of what 4K images from the Origin (and perhaps other d-cinema cameras) look like. I have the ability to show captured and processed footage in a more ideal manner. With everything we have going on, the only real issue I have about setting it up is time.

I.

[Stephen Williams]

Of course you can buy a cheaper 35mm camera but the one I mentioned is comparable to the one used in the side by side test. Also the lenses they used were very expensive Zeiss primes.

Hi,

The point is, a properly maintained $700 Konvas with a PL mount will give an identical image to an Arricam. Its down to lens & filmstock.

Stephen

[evinsky]

Maybe at 24FPS MOS. But that hardly works as a viable A cam for feature film production.

This argument is noted but the cheapest 35mm sound capable camera is probably an Arri BL1 or Blimped Arri 2C both of witch will cost you $10K plus.
The Red offers significant advantages in almost all areas for a very insignificant amount of additional dollars.

[evinsky]

Evan, the Red footage, by comparison, was not passed through the very unkind workflow done by the fellows at Disney. It really is apples to oranges. I don't think any manufacturer was particularly pleased by the way in which their footage was treated, other than Kodak (who probably shouldn't have been). quickie LUT, DNxHD, down-rez then up-rez..etc!

I was happy to hear comments from all those in the know- questioning the thought process and post workflow of the test. The same phrases I kept hearing uttered after the screening (in several different variations) was "That test wasn't fair to anything, including film." and "Impossible to draw any conclusions, other than a blatant bias towards film."

My schedule is really tight right now, as there are a couple big projects prepping this month. However, when things slow down around the Christmas holiday, I'll try to arrange a screening for a people who saw the shootout this week and now have a distorted impression of what 4K images from the Origin (and perhaps other d-cinema cameras) look like. I have the ability to show captured and processed footage in a more ideal manner. With everything we have going on, the only real issue I have about setting it up is time.

I.

I fully recognize that the test was flawed. I've shot the Viper, F900 Varicam and 35mm and I know that there are many things in that test that were not done well. However the Red screening also was shot on an uncharachterized sensor, using a very rudimentary demosaic and Gamma curve/LUT so even though I did say the comparison was "Apples to Oranges" it's not as far off as you make it sound. All the cameras in the various tests were handicapped in some way yet some significant charachter was dicernable from all. Except maybe the Viper which I have seen much, much better results from in other real world productions.

So I will happily attend any screening you conduct and update my opinion as such.
E.

[Stephen Williams]

This argument is noted but the cheapest 35mm sound capable camera is probably an Arri BL1 or Blimped Arri 2C both of witch will cost you $10K plus.
The Red offers significant advantages in almost all areas for a very insignificant amount of additional dollars.

Hi.

I bought an Ultracam 35 with 5 Zeiss lenses & 3 mags for well under $10,000. (20db if you believe Leonetti) The camera was advertised on CML, so anybody could have bought it!

Stephen

[evinsky]

Congratulations... You'll forgive me if I don't cancell my Red reservation and start hunting for a Russian Wundercam.

I just think this whole argument is counter productive. Film is not dead, but it is in a vegetative state hooked up to life support.

[Stephen Williams]

Congratulations... You'll forgive me if I don't cancell my Red reservation and start hunting for a Russian Wundercam.
.

Hi,

FWIW Leonetti's Ultracam 35 was made in the USA.

Stephen

[evinsky]

Stephen,
If you can shoot 35mm so cheaply at such a high quality, then what are you doing lurking around this forum?

We all understand the quality and cost of 35mm. I myself used to own a very nice Arri 35-3 system. I sold it when I got the HVX200. The world is changing and as beautiful and nostalgic film might seem it is becoming less and less viable from a real world production point of view. Almost all media is now being delived digitally and very soon all movies will be too.

But have fun with your Ultracam and if you come by another one give me a call. It sounds like a great addition to my collectable camera shelf.
E.

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen,
But have fun with your Ultracam and if you come by another one give me a call. It sounds like a great addition to my collectable camera shelf.
E.

Hi,

I've actually got 2 of the 15 made, so I maybe in touch!

Stephen

[Illya Friedman]

All the cameras in the various tests were handicapped in some way yet some significant charachter was dicernable from all. Except maybe the Viper which I have seen much, much better results from in other real world productions.
The only one I haven't seen much of is the D20. I agree that certain characteristics shined through despite what was done. However, a DP I was speaking with after said that the test said it should have been called "How well do images hold up when we do this, and this, and then this."

We can both agree that the showcase wasn't ideal. Optimizing each camera to look it's best, or perhaps matching every camera exactly to an extremely high detail, high dynamic range reference frame(s) could have been more telling. So declaring a winner feels to me like lining up 5 funhouse mirrors and saying, "this mirror makes me look the least distorted."

I understand that RED has yet to characterized their sensor, and using a non-final de-bayering. However, at the RED presentation RED was in control of what was presented, and how. At the other screening, a 3rd party producing and presented the test, all the other manufacturers didn't have the equivalent luxury.

2007 is shaping up to be a big year for High End Cinema Cameras. As always, when new cameras are release, there'll be many, many more tests to look forward too.

I.

[Craig Ryan]

Originally posted by evinsky
Red reservation holders rejoice, this battle station (Ahem) this Mysterium sensor is now the ultimate power in the universe, I suggest we use it!

Even though I am not a reservation holder, that quote made my day man. I can't get enough of those good ol' Star Wars homages!

[WaveRiderXIX]

Heh. RED coming out reminds me of when FCP made it's debut to the professional market. You have to admit, most AVID users/producers/directors hated FCP. It was talked down upon etc etc... Walter Murch cuts Cold Mountain with it and suddenly it was accepted and respected. Hopefully RED takes the same path of the underdog, and come out accepted as well.

[evinsky]

I think once people see the footage from it Red will be accepted far quicker than FCP was.