RED L.A. photos/what have you's

[zakforrest]

today at the nuart theater.

you have to see the image full size though or else you dont see the RED EYE!

[zakforrest]

.nuart

[zakforrest]

...jarred ted nuart

[Jarred Land]

ha ha wow Zak you just left that was quick.. thanks!

[Tom Lowe]

my DP was there and said the footage was simply awesome.

were the shots displayed CC'd or not?

[zakforrest]

redmaptedjarred

[zakforrest]

... stayed for multiple screenings -_---=_ -

[zakaree]

just got home (damn traffic) normally a 50 min drive took me 2 hours (im in orange county next to red). anyways.. i was giddy when i first took my seat.. i was impressed witht he footage thats for sure. i wish they would have shown some 2k and 1080 footage.. and did a color comparison with 4k raw and then 4k raw CC. but i really did want to see the differences of 2k... oh well.. next time.

todays showing brought up some questions for me... im really into the viewfinder and definatly want that.. in fact i want the rail. cage. viewfinder and the storage hd.. does anyone have any idea what ballpark price we are talkin for those accessories...? or does the camera come witht he viewfinder stock?

[zakforrest]

seeing the footage the second time, sitting in the very FRONT instead of the middle, was totally insane. i dont think ive ever seen anything like that in my life. it was a raw, new experience. i was tearing up

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Wow, I noticed in some other thread that it was mentioned that parking in that area was difficult...

I guess they were right...

[zakforrest]

haha ZAKAREE

[zakaree]

thats the name.. ask my parrents! :)

[nicool]

mad scientist! the best

[ZaneIsNumber1]

What's the Red Map? My guess is the highlighted countries have reservations?

[evexon]

What's the Red Map? My guess is the highlighted countries have reservations?

You guessed correctly!

[firewallet]

You guessed correctly!

Hey Steve, I look forward to hearing from you.:beer:

[Deadzone]

I had been waiting for this moment for a long time... the promise of a digital camera that could shoot film quality type footage. After seeing moving footage on a giant screen I only have one reservation about the camera at this point.

First my impressions:
The stuff shot inside of people with a black background looked as sharp as I thought they would be after seeing samples on the internet. The color reproduction was amazing and the dynamic range was impressive. The best looking shot had to be the Porsche that could have passed for one of those fancy car commercials. Then the samples moved into the exteriors. At the presentation the host said two different lenses were used (the Cooke's and the Red Prime), and I'm curious what shots each were used on. The closeup of one of the girls looked crystal clear. However, when the camera moved into wider shots, the subjects seemed a little soft. I don't know if this is because the subjects were on the edge of the focus, or lighting issues, or whatever. I get the feeling that the Red team was trying to emphasize the DOF drop off in the background, but I'm wondering if by doing this, they didn't get the sharpest focus on the two women. I wonder if anybody else felt the same way, because everytime the shots went wide I thought it didn't look as sharp as the CUs. That's pretty much the only concern. Other than that, this camera is kicking serious butt!

[Blaine]

I went in, hoping for the best and I feel I got it. As I watched the 4K footage I compared what I saw with what I'd expect to see if I went to watch a movie. RED succeeded beyond my expectations... Good show, fellas... :thumbsup:

[Tom Lowe]

My friend said the showing was, quote, "packed with every digital cinema nerd in LA.. it was awesome." :D

[billy fattey]

I wasn't able to attend the screening today, but this is something I have been wondering about too. The stills of the "girls on lunch break" are amazing but the closeup of the one girl drinking the milk seems tack sharp compared to the wider shot of both girls.

And now David Stump's color chart shots look a little soft to my eye. So I figured it might be one of these reasons:

1. Frankie is hard to focus and these are just tests anyway.
2. Graeme has stated that he is not applying sharpening like other digital camera's do so maybe I am just used to seeing fake clarity.
3. I am simply not used to being able to zoom in so far to an image and we are seeing past the limits of the circle of confusion.

I still haven't come to a conclusion, but it's good to know I'm not the only one.

[_MR_]

Hey, look at little ol' New Zealand on that map all painted red :)

[kenn michael]

This was the TRUE demonstration of Digital Cinema in my opinion.

The stuff look friggin' incredible. It was 35mm with no grain. Didn't feel electronic..... It felt like the next evolution of cinema imaging.

Most definitely kick ass.

[USLatin]

The closeup of one of the girls looked crystal clear. However, when the camera moved into wider shots, the subjects seemed a little soft. I don't know if this is because the subjects were on the edge of the focus, or lighting issues, or whatever. I get the feeling that the Red team was trying to emphasize the DOF drop off in the background, but I'm wondering if by doing this, they didn't get the sharpest focus on the two women.

I felt the same way, but the guy doing the presentation talked about DOF a lot and my guess is that they wanted to show that you could have a super short focused area while keeping focus on a subject that because of definition appeared cristal clear with a ton of detail. I think that what made if feel weird is that the shot where the "milk girl" comes out from inside the bus was not about the girl wrenching away below, but about her that popping her head out of the window and coming down to help or whatever. If the guys were up for the challenge of keeping focus on her as she moved through the shot it would have made much more sense. However they probably skipped that because of the difficulty of it and instead they stayed with ::DANG! just burnt my dinner:: the girl that wasn't moving.

By the way, the screen was 30ft. not the 60 footer used on previous screenings. I wish at the end of the presentation they would have blown it up to 60ft projection and only shown the 30ft they had of screen just to see how deep the detail goes.


Sorry about the parking ticket! I parked behind the gas station accross the street and my meter ran out too but got lucky!

[USLatin]

Hey, look at little ol' New Zealand on that map all painted red :)

Hey there is at least one order from Argentina too! Hope they r not buying their storage there cause THAT is what expensive really is

[ThomSteinhoff]

All I can say is that I brought my cinematographer who is a hardcore film guy and his main comment was "It is way too clean and their lenses are too sharp. I think it would look better with an old Cooke that's seen a bit of wear." Too clean, too sharp. Not bad.

He clarified saying "With the three chip cameras the lenses have to be super sharp to minimize the separation issues as the light is split. All of this goes away with a single chip camera [like red] so the supersharp lenses can actually work against you." I'm not sure what he's saying, but it is still positive.

Since we had been planning to shoot film until Red came along I asked him if he'd rather shoot film or Red. He said, "If you had it today, I'd borrow it tomorrow. Hell yeah, we have to use this, the picture looks great and we'll save so much money. Forever, with digital projects you push them stylized because they couldn't look like film--but with this it is no longer the case--you can shoot a nice, warm, romatic comedy without apology."

There you go. One film guy converted--a couple thousand more to go!

[ThomSteinhoff]

One more thing.

The Redcode raw footage at the end. It really wasn't shown back to back (actually I'd like to see it truely A/B'd like you can in something like compressor with a line in the middle hiding and revealing)

...But, to my eyes it did look visually flatter to me. Was it just me? There was a few minutes, between the normal footage and the Redcode footage with no set up at all (like, "This is Raw... This is Redcode Raw... Any Questions?" )

When it first came up, I thought it looked flatter, then it was repeated and it looked identical. I thought that was showing uncomressed and compressed and I thought "wow, they are identical--but a bit flatter than I remembered" but then Ted said they showed the Redcode Raw twice so maybe it was really flatter than the raw stuff that was shown earlier.

Is it me? Everything else looked jawdropping and spectacular and maybe I'm remembering this different as, with the discussion, I was preparing myself to go Redcode Raw--so I saw what I was expecting to see. Or, maybe the main footage had color correction and the raw didn't.

Is it just me?

Thom

[Tom Lowe]

My DP said that the REDCODE looked just "a little" less impressive, but that he wasn't told it was REDCODE until after viewing it, so he wasn't sure.

[USLatin]

he didn't tell us to look for it, but viewers won't be told either...

[ThomSteinhoff]

For now, it's amazing.

I have to keep reminding myself that we are seeing earlier test footage with this camera than we've ever seen and it will only get better.

Also, if what I remember is true, this test footage was actually "extra compressed" compared to what we will get from the camera and what I saw still looked great--and looked like it may richen up with color adjustments, it just looked different to my eyes than the earlier footage.

Once we get closer to delivery, I'm sure we'll get Redcode vs Raw demos to "see it like it is" with clean A/Bs indoor, outdoor, greenscreen, etc so we can start planning our workflows accordingly and determine our tolerance for "acceptable loss" vs "pursuit of perfection".

Thom

[Graeme_Nattress]

From my POV, I stare at REDCODE RAW images every day. Unless you take both the uncompressed and the compressed images into Photoshop and flip-flop between them and tweak the hell out of the levels, it's bloody hard to tell them apart.

Graeme

[Tom Lowe]

From my POV, I stare at REDCODE RAW images every day. Unless you take both the uncompressed and the compressed images into Photoshop and flip-flop between them and tweak the hell out of the levels, it's bloody hard to tell them apart.

Graeme

That's what I figured. People don't realize how awesome compression is these days. I often compress color-corrected 1GB HVX footage, which is already impressively compressed, down to 150MBs with Windows Media and can barely tell the difference on a high-end monitor.

People who are like "You are talking about 4K post on a high-end PC!!!??" don't realize the pace of technology. That's why I love to see posts like this from RED and guys like David over at Cineform. It shocks the old-school guys!

[tonacidigital]

My friend and I came away from the experience in awe. Like everyone has said before... you gotta see it on the big screen to absorb how incredible the RED 4k footage really is. Seeing it in the theatre was insaaaaane. The free soda and caramel popcorn was also nice. thanks Jim and company.

[Graeme_Nattress]

Also, Frankie, great girl that she is, is a pain to focus, and to keep critical back focus and 3-plane alignment. If things are a touch soft, that's what I'd say is reason #1, and obviously, that won't be the case in camera.

#2 is NO Sharpening of any kind WHAT-SO-EVER. None. At all. Zip.

#3 bayer CFA demosaicing algorithm choice. I like "smooth as dark chocolate - a little bite, but it melts nicely". That's my aesthetic. I don't like sharpened, I don't like edgy, and I despise ringing artifacts of any kind. Rant over - so what you're seeing in terms of per-pixel sharpness is my idea of "nice". Don't like it - it's raw, so extract out the bayer pattern and write your own. I'll probably (don't quote me on this) give you a couple of choices of demosaic algorithm though.

If you want to see what a different aesthetic can look like, take the 4k stills into photoshop and muck around with unsharp mask or other favourite sharpening tool. One of these days I might just write a sharpening tool I actually can stand to look at :-)

Graeme

[visceralpsyche]

What's the Red Map? My guess is the highlighted countries have reservations?Hmm, looks like Japan doesn't have any reservations... since I'm going to Japan next year I may have to seriously look at taking the camera with me instead of leaving it in Australia to work itself out of indentured servitude :) Guess it depends on how many people decide to rent it here vs Japan, but in Japan I'd have the market truly cornered if it was the only one in country!

[ThomSteinhoff]

That's really good to hear, Graeme, and honestly I have zero interest in figuring out a 4K Raw workflow so we are counting on you to deliver Redcode raw that is IMPOSSIBLE to tell apart!

But in all seriousness, color corrected together (and not tweaking the hell out of the levels) I doubt you'd be able to tell them apart. And even if there is a subtle difference who is ever going to see it as the entire feature will be Redcoded?

Keep up the good work, Graeme--it's too bad you missed the gasps in the audience when the footage was rolling--everyone was completely awestruck.

Thom

Wait. Free Soda and Carmel popcorn?!! I missed that!

[Graeme_Nattress]

Ted phoned me immediately after and told me the story! But great to hear it from you Thom! There's still a fair bit of work to do on REDCODE and my hope is to improve it from what you've seen today.

Graeme

[Brook Willard]

I believe the "difference" in the REDCODE image came from the fact that the colors were ever so slightly off from the other shots. It's not that it was changed by the compression, just the setup. A little curves or levels work would make it match the other shots perfectly, in my opinion.

I had an absolutely amazing time there and it was wonderful to meet everybody that I did. I didn't get a chance to catch up with Jarred or Jim [saw both, almost got their attention, missed them as they went into the 2:30 screening... bugger!] but the whole experience was fantastic.

I need not state how amazing the footage was. I was gasping the entire time.

The thing that excited me the most today was the new/more detailed body and the new cage. Actually seeing the REDFLASH and RED-DRIVE mounted on the new body made a huge difference for me. Also seeing the optical RAW port was fantastic. The EVF is coming along quite nicely as well, it's nice to see some real visible development there. I'm really hoping that those pictures make it online soon... they made the show for me.

I have some stills that I'll post shortly, though most are just of the line and crowd. I didn't bring the HVX per Jarred's recommendation in my thread... and I kept the flash off on my still camera [so anything indoors is blurred beyond comprehension].

Who was it who had Jim sign their R? Seeing that was kind of funny.

Wow, what a fantastic screening. I can't wait to see what's next.

Just teach your actresses how to use their tools... or call me next time for the shoot. :laugh:

[Max R. Wilson]

damn i totaly frogot this was today!!! and the worst part is i drive right by that theatre and saw a huge line out there...

[CVB]

That show was great.. I walked in the theater at 1:25 and was amazed that I could find a seat.. it was packed. The footage was amazing, everyone was gidddy. The reverse threaded nuts on the bus wheels were particularly amusing. I'm totally bummed that I missed out on the free soda and popcorn. Anyway... Great job Jim and crew.

[adaml]

Also, Frankie, great girl that she is, is a pain to focus, and to keep critical back focus and 3-plane alignment. If things are a touch soft, that's what I'd say is reason #1, and obviously, that won't be the case in camera.

#2 is NO Sharpening of any kind WHAT-SO-EVER. None. At all. Zip.

#3 bayer CFA demosaicing algorithm choice. I like "smooth as dark chocolate - a little bite, but it melts nicely". That's my aesthetic. I don't like sharpened, I don't like edgy, and I despise ringing artifacts of any kind. Rant over - so what you're seeing in terms of per-pixel sharpness is my idea of "nice". Don't like it - it's raw, so extract out the bayer pattern and write your own. I'll probably (don't quote me on this) give you a couple of choices of demosaic algorithm though.

If you want to see what a different aesthetic can look like, take the 4k stills into photoshop and muck around with unsharp mask or other favourite sharpening tool. One of these days I might just write a sharpening tool I actually can stand to look at :-)

Graeme

Love the passion, Graeme. :)

[Graeme_Nattress]

Passion is what it's about! I'm just happy that the whole of the rest of the team are equally, if not more so, passionate about what they're doing.

Graeme

[Gibby]

Fun day at the Nuart Theater! I talked with Jim, Jarred, Mike Curtis, Ted, James Masters, Joanne, and Kelley (each of which I knew previously). I also got the chance to meet many DVX User RED forum members who also have reserved RED cameras, including Evexon, Blaine, Donatello, Luis Bustamante + Alex from Hermosillo, DeadZone, and many others. My wife Pamala, who's also my production coordinator, went with me - and was super-happy she did.

The footage looked exceptional. The 4k REDCODE RAW footage convinced me that whenever possible in my workflow, no matter what the delivery resolution will be, I'll probably shoot it in 4k REDCODE RAW. That way it will have "long legs", and be usable in a maximum number of applications and projects. Like Zak, I was stoked with the latest incarnations in the camera design, including the Flash magazine, EVF, Cage One, and RED Rail. It's been a necessarily long refinement process, but I like what I'm seeing. I felt the close-up shot of the girl drinking milk convinced me that even though the 300mm prime is obviously going to be good for nature, sports, etc., it will be a very usable lens for long focal length/shallow DOF narrative cinema use.

The world map of countries where people have reserved RED One cameras also impressed me. It drove home the concept that RED One is getting attention from everywhere.

The audience at the 1:30 screening was a good mix of young chargers and grizzled veterans, so obviously the demographics of RED One's appeal seem to be pretty broad.

Then there's the "buzz". People are excited about this camera! I could feel it in line in front of the theater, inside while waiting for the presentation, and definitely during the presentation, and afterwards.

For me, today was one more confirmation to me that I made a good choice in reserving two RED cameras, the 18-85 zoom, and the 300mm prime. I can't wait to get them in my hands to start cranking out images with them. I've been working in the motion media industry for decades, but it is so cool to find some new equipment to re-ignite my stoke for what I like doing best in this business - simply going out and using a new camera system to capture some quality images. There is nothing quite like that buzz to me!

[Blaine]

It was a pleasure having the opportunity to talk with you, Gibby. Thanks for taking the time to introduce yourself...:thumbsup:

[Poi Boy]

Great post Gibby !
I wish I could have been there...your feedback and that of others means a lot to those of us that could not attend.
Aloha
-A

[Gibby]

My pleasure! We're all in the same boat - excited about the camera system and interested in comparing notes with others who are. It was cool to meet the others, and as usual I'm happy to share my impressions of it all.

[Tom Lowe]

road.

Then there's the "buzz". People are excited about this camera! I could feel it in line in front of the theater, inside while waiting for the presentation, and definitely during the presentation, and afterwards.


:beer::thumbup:

[Mr. Blonde]

Today the beauty of Red footage spoke for itself in the form of many dropped jaws and silent but deadly mutters of "dammmmn" throughout the theatre.

I loved the silky smooth, yet highly detailed image. The colors were rich and true in every aspect. Highlights were extremely well kept and shadow detial was stunning! No noise, no grain, just plain goodness! All my gf could say during watching was, "I'ts beautiful!."

My one and only request (which was mirrored by a few other attendees) was to have the footage projected at a "true" theatrical size. I'm talkin' 60 feet you know.

My guess is that there weren't any theatres available with a larger screen size that also housed the 4K projector?!?

In the end, it was utterly beautiful to see!

BTW Jim, thank you for the autographed emblem and for god sakes, get Ted a better projector remote! :thumbup:

[Brook Willard]

BTW Jim, thank you for the autographed emblem
It was you! :laugh: :thumbup:

[Brook Willard]

So I was perusing my photos and came across this little gem. I'm sure a few of you are in this picture, I at least see Jim in the background. There seems to be a theme here...

Though some may not be a certain brand, most appear to be.

[Tom Lowe]

So I was perusing my photos and came across this little gem. I'm sure a few of you are in this picture, I at least see Jim in the background. There seems to be a theme here...

Though some may not be a certain brand, most appear to be.

Dammit, reveal who these fine people are!

[SF Geek]

You guys are crazy. Frankie wasn't soft and there wasn't any visible difference between the redcode images and the raw footage. I was there, I'm a DP, and i don't need to pretend that I have supersight and can see that something's fuzzy when everybody else sees a sharp image. First of all the redcode clips went by really fast and there was nothing to compare them to. You couldn't tell if they were flatter or not. I'm on here as SF Geek but come on, the geek meter on this thread is going through the friggin' roof. The stuff looked awesome guys and the ladies' ratcheting was top notch!

[Mr. Blonde]

So I was perusing my photos and came across this little gem. I'm sure a few of you are in this picture, I at least see Jim in the background. There seems to be a theme here...

Though some may not be a certain brand, most appear to be.
Mr. Andersoooooon......Looks like Agent Smith was there to make sure nothing went wrong. :huh:

[Mr. Blonde]

You guys are crazy. Frankie wasn't soft and there wasn't any visible difference between the redcode images and the raw footage. I was there, I'm a DP, and i don't need to pretend that I have supersight and can see that something's fuzzy when everybody else sees a sharp image. First of all the redcode clips went by really fast and there was nothing to compare them to. You couldn't tell if they were flatter or not. I'm on here as SF Geek but come on, the geek meter on this thread is going through the friggin' roof. The stuff looked awesome guys and the ladies' ratcheting was top notch!
Agreed, the ladies ratcheting shot was truly gorgeous. There was nothing video about it in any sense. All I saw was a beautiful, better than film-like image.

[adaml]

Will we be seeing any pics of the latest body and rail designs?

[harlan]

So I was perusing my photos and came across this little gem. I'm sure a few of you are in this picture, I at least see Jim in the background. There seems to be a theme here...

Though some may not be a certain brand, most appear to be.


Well, it is L.A.!!! :)

[tonacidigital]

My buddy and Joanne from RED.

[ts1]

#2 is NO Sharpening of any kind WHAT-SO-EVER. None. At all. Zip.
Graeme

Not even to compensate for the anti-alias filter?

-Tripurari

[Jarred Land]

a few things...

first, it was great meeting many of you for the first time and seeing many of you again.. Curt, Haakon, Gibby, Evin, and the few others I had good conversation with.

second... about the focus. Graeme touched on it about the backfocus, but another thing to remember is that we are dealing with super 35mm DOF.. your focus plane measured in inches, if not mm... so if one of the girls moves a touch, its out of focus. We didnt have a first AC for those shots, so wee couldnt follow focus. On the wrench shot Brian F pulled focus and did a remarkable job... but for the still 2 shot etc there was just one focus point and that was it.

2nd about Redcode... i think it could of been presented a little better, i do agree. But i can tell you, you can not visibly tell the difference. Download David Stumps redcode frames.. one in redcode and one not... take a look at them at 100% and it will be almost impossible to see a difference. you need to really zoom in and push stuff to see the difference.

3rd.. the win today for me personally was the 300mm prime shot of the girl drinking the milk close up. It was nothing less than breathtaking. Im excited to see that quality of glass for $5000 available to us in a PL mount prime.

[Deadzone]

You guys are crazy. Frankie wasn't soft and there wasn't any visible difference between the redcode images and the raw footage. I was there, I'm a DP, and i don't need to pretend that I have supersight and can see that something's fuzzy when everybody else sees a sharp image. First of all the redcode clips went by really fast and there was nothing to compare them to. You couldn't tell if they were flatter or not. I'm on here as SF Geek but come on, the geek meter on this thread is going through the friggin' roof. The stuff looked awesome guys and the ladies' ratcheting was top notch!

Nope, not crazy. I want Red to be a success. However, when I see softness in the wide shot, I cannot deny it. I'm not a DP, but I have two eyes. The CU were extremely sharp, no complaints there. The problem came with the wide shots. However, all logic tells me that the reason for this is the very shallow DOF. Like I said before, looks like the girls were on the edge of it. I am hoping shooting with a wider lens will help this problem. The defocused background isn't so important to me. I look forward to more footage and will continue to wait for my metal "R" to show up in the mail.

[Michael Horton]

I was there and enjoyed myself thoroughly which really was the point of the whole thing. No one I know including me could tell the difference when Ted showed the Redcode clip. Absolutely impossible.

Now I'm not a shooter and find anything projected at 4K to look real pretty but these clips looked REAL PRETTY.

Michael Horton
lafcpug

[firewallet]

Here is what Mr. Stump had to say about focus (he also said that he could be quoted as long as it was verbatim):

"for example the lens mount is bolted to a big black
metal box, and the lens mount is not exactly square to the sensor, so
one cannot count on perfect back focus distance or side to side focus,
but that is to be expected in a testbed."

"As I said in the posts, the sensor is not square to the lens in the
prototype, so back focal distance is not good side to side, it would
be wise to eval intrinsic camera focus quality from some of the
material done at deeper stops, in order to take the back focus issues
out of the equation."

Dave Stump ASC
DP/VFX Supervisor

[Mr. Blonde]

How many of you, if any at all, are going to the dvexpo manana?

[hawaj]

The Red map is impressive and our counry is also red! Wow!

... but wait, has anybody heard about brand new "Mongolian Sea"? Wow! :O

[donatello]

i'll be dropping by DV expo for a few hrs wednesday ...

[Finner]

Will we be seeing any pics of the latest body and rail designs?

I did not see any answers to this? As a RED reservation member that could not be there (stuck shooting up in the Canadian rockies) seeing the evolution of the EFV really interests me as it is a feature I would have a hard time shooting without.

[Laco]

The Red map is impressive and our counry is also red! Wow!


But no reservations from Slovakia :-(

[Jannard]

... but a few in the Czech Republic!

Jim

[hawaj]

... but a few in the Czech Republic!

Jim

What a surprise for me :beer:
Just wonder how many? :)

[Jannard]

two...

Jim

[hawaj]

Thanx for info Jim :beer: :beer:

Now I can sleep better.
My brother in Wind city will touch another one soon. :thumbup:

[Christian Berg]

will the red.com website be updated soon with new pictures of the development of the camera, raid, ram, evf etc?

Couldn´t be there but saw the nice show at IBC. Impressed then and more now...

[tlorenzo]

Oh - and Jim. I know that there's at least five re(d)servations in Denmark. Seems like you forgot that on the map ;-)

[Steen Dongo]

Oh - and Jim. I know that there's at least five re(d)servations in Denmark. Seems like you forgot that on the map ;-)

Hear, hear :)



Smile from


Steen Dongo

PICTUREWISE COMMUNICATION

DENMARK

[Yuval Shrem]

Ted phoned me immediately after and told me the story! But great to hear it from you Thom! There's still a fair bit of work to do on REDCODE and my hope is to improve it from what you've seen today.

Graeme


I was there and was very impressed! Even though I did notice a slight difference between the Redcode compressed and uncompressed images, I thought the aesthetics of the Redcode compression looked very filmic, and even though the image was slightly less detailed (1:10 compression) in some way, I liked it better, because it seemed to have the positive effect film projection has on storytelling (vs. digital projection), in the sense that it shifts the attention away from the beauty of the image and back to the actors and the story. I do hope Redcode keeps improving, but I think even as it is now I would have felt more than comfortable using it (Redcode Raw) for a feature-film project with a theatrical release.

Keep up the great work!
Can't wait to seeing the next version of the codec...:thumbup:

Yuval.

[Yuval Shrem]

Being at the LA screening today, one of the most amazing things that struck me there was the huge difference between the RED 300mm lens and the other lenses used in the RED demo footage.

The images from the RED lens were clearly superior to the rest.
This is to me a hugely pleasant surprise!
I'm super curious about the RED zoom lens, but if one can learn about the quality of the RED zoom lens from the current quality of the RED 300mm prime, I would say it looks VERY promising!!!:thumbup:

In my opinion the RED footage looked superior to ANY of the other existing ultra-high-definition cameras on the market today, and the flexible work flow it will offer seems to also be better then any of the alternatives that I'm aware of...


Just wanted to congratulate you there in the RED team for your unbelievably great work!!!


Very excited !! :)


Yuval Shrem.

[laboprod]

I couldn't be at the screeing, but thanks for all the comments. It makes me feel I really missed something...

Thanks so much for the review!

seeya,
antoine

[obin]

Graeme_Nattress thank you for seeing what ALL of the camera makers don't, camera sharpening smells like low end...I don't know why on earth all the camera makers insist you should sharpen an HD image, looks like (**&*..I have 2 or 3 shots on our VariCam feature that the camera had some type of sharpening turned on...uggggg it looks so BAD

[Homersapien]

Graeme_Nattress thank you for seeing what ALL of the camera makers don't, camera sharpening smells like low end...I don't know why on earth all the camera makers insist you should sharpen an HD image, looks like (**&*..I have 2 or 3 shots on our VariCam feature that the camera had some type of sharpening turned on...uggggg it looks so BAD
Some of the digital cinema camera footage that I've seen close up probably needed to be sharpened because the original acquisition is quite horrible. This is one of the reasons digital is not as good as film, but from what I've seen thus far of Red, digital looks set to have a more even keel with film in many situations. Negating sharpening of the image is a natural step therefore on route to a digital camera that can stand up to film quality - in my opinion at least.

[penfever]

The screening was a lot of fun - RED team came on strong, but they have a lot to be proud of, and as others have been pointing out, a lot of prejudice to overcome.
I love the David Stump quote about the settlers someone just posted. I think a fairly priced camera that levels the playing field can do nothing worse than separate those with true talent from those who were just hiding behind half a million dollars of toys for a long time.
Don't worry - Conrad Hall will still be Conrad Hall after RED comes out.
Everyone else - better start reading the forums. :)
Also, Jarred, it was cool to meet you for the first time at the screening - you are kinda tall, I was surprised.

[Milan Nikolic]

Passion is what it's about! I'm just happy that the whole of the rest of the team are equally, if not more so, passionate about what they're doing.

Graeme

Yes, Graeme as Hegel said: NOTHING GREAT IS MADE WITHOUT PASSION!

[Michael Horton]

lafcpug will be putting on a show at DV Expo tonight, Nov 15. Red's Ted Schilowitz will be there for an informal discussion so if you have any questions, come on down.

http://www.lafcpug.org/dvexpo2006.html

Seating is limited though.

[DVXSanDiego]

I was there with one of my production partners and an actor/editor friend, both of whom were largely unfamiliar with the camera and very skeptical. We were all blown away by the footage, with our comments centering around the fact that this camera, if completed properly, should kill film acquistion. But we're holding our breath to see if they can take it from the current Frankenstein version to a working, reliable field camera. That is a huge leap. I'm dying to see if they can do it. In fact, I send them little prayers. Time will tell. But as far as the appearance of the footage, it's something entirely new. Essentially, it looks like extremely clean 35 mm film; the next generation, if you will. And when I say extremely clean, I mean noise and grain-free. I was a little disappointed they didn't open it up for a Q & A afterward, but Ted and Jarred were at the front and were available. Let's see what happens over the next six months to a year. I want to hear some feedback from people who actually take it through a whole production, from acquisition to post. Then it will be a great rental for our future projects.

[Graeme_Nattress]

No. You can do that yourself if you want to, but I don't. I think sharpening is one of the greatest evils of our time. It makes everything, even NHK 8k footage look like VHS - do it at your peril.

Graeme

[Jarred Land]

I was a little disappointed they didn't open it up for a Q & A afterward, but Ted and Jarred were at the front and were available. Let's see what happens over the next six months to a year. I want to hear some feedback from people who actually take it through a whole production, from acquisition to post. Then it will be a great rental for our future projects.

Yeah sorry Mark... we had very little time between screenings and had to get people out of the theater quickly to get the next round in so we couldnt have the QA session.. Stuart and Me and Ted and Jim and Brian where happy to talk to people in the front though, but yeah it woulda been nice to have a QA.

Feel free to ask away here though if there are any unanswered questions :)

[Jarred Land]

I think sharpening is one of the greatest evils of our time.

ha hahah very well said Graeme.

[acoreasc]

Does Red have any plans to shoot any other kind of scene setting - day interiors, night interiors and night exteriors? Oh, and I expect a bag of caramel corn with my camera thank you very much....in a pretty red cellophane bag.

[DVXSanDiego]

Hey Jarred, that explains it. It was good to meet you though and have a chance to personally thank you for all your work on DVXUser. Regarding questions, I was more interested in hearing what some of the DPs in the audience would have asked given the opportunity. The only question I had (whether it was the Sony SXRD 4K used to project) was answered by Ted. My curiosity is satisfied for now. I'm just going to sit back and wait for the first test of the assembled camera. Good luck to you all.

[RonnieRedNumber626]

First of all, I too like everyone was blown away by the quality. Thank you for sharing this with us. I did notice some choppiness in the outdoor shots but someone explained to me, that the shutter speed used could have been slower to take the choppiness away. Also, was I the only one that noticed that the 300 prime shot scene had 2 dirt spots on the lens. Don't get me wrong. The quality was perfect. I just noticed the 2 dirt spots on the lens, that's all. It was a great show. Exciting times ahead.
Ronnie

[Jarred Land]

Ill take the hit for the the dirt spots.. They where actually on the ND filter, and I didnt see them when i cleaned the rest of the lens areas before shooting. Total Human error, and ill take the fall for that (sorry).

Dust at super resolution is visible, you gotta keep things really really clean.

[Brook Willard]

Any word on the mechanism for switching between the optical RAW attachment and the onboard REDFLASH? The interfaces appeared to be attached with some form of screw arrangement... is it a quick on-set fix or would it require breaking down the camera and getting into a clean environment?

[shaftbond]

Just got back from the screening last night at around 11:30pm (drove back to Phoenix). I agree the "buzz" in the air was incredible. It was nice meeting a few DVXUsers (FatBird and Donatello) and seeing Jim and Jarred (didn't talk to either, maybe next time)

The footage was exactly how I had hoped. Simply beautiful. The wider shots did seem a little soft compared to the 300mm close-ups, but only if you were looking at the girls. If you watched the props, some of them stayed in focus. I think it was more an issue of focusing Frankie and (like Jarred said) lack of a 1st AC. Nothing I'm concerned about.

As for the REDCODE images, they were quick, and it did seem like the coloring was a little different than the previous shots, but I couldn't see any compression. I was hoping to shoot in REDCODE before the screening and now I'm planning on it.

Congratulations REDteam, keep up the fantastic work.

PS- I got my "R" in the mail Tuesday. I'll have to get it signed some other time. :)

[mrwigggles]

The footage was exactly how I had hoped. Simply beautiful. The wider shots did seem a little soft compared to the 300mm close-ups, but only if you were looking at the girls. If you watched the props, some of them stayed in focus. I think it was more an issue of focusing Frankie and (like Jarred said) lack of a 1st AC. Nothing I'm concerned about.
... That brings up a good point and that was my impression of the posted images on the RED site. Are there any "really" sharp sample images? The images on the RED site are gorgeous but I don't see much real high frequency content in them. (I know they are unsharpened, that's not exactly what I am getting at here.)

I did some tests where I resized http://red.com/images/gallery-still/4k_1 down to 2K and back up to 4K. Before I dare share my results, I would like know that I was using the sharpest image to begin with.

Sorry for the OT post. Until I can partake in a screening, (in TX at the moment), I am very excited by RED and even more eager to find out what this system can do.

Thanks

-Mr. Wigggles

[SF Geek]

Hey Brook,
From what I saw, it looked like there were going to be two different versions of the camera. One with the internal flash and one with the high-speed data port. There would be no switching.

[Kjetil Haugen]

No. You can do that yourself if you want to, but I don't. I think sharpening is one of the greatest evils of our time. It makes everything, even NHK 8k footage look like VHS - do it at your peril.

Graeme

Music to my ears!!!

Can't believe people are still going on and on about the sharpness!! Finally there's a digital camera that produces beautiful film-like images.. and why? Because they won't SCAR your eyes!!!!!!

I'm scared to death that the Red team will buy into these requests for sharpness... I wake up in the middle of the night screaming "NOOOOOOOOO, LORD!!! TAKE ME INSTEAD!!!!"

Knowing Graeme and Jim share my love for pleasing soft images helps me sleep at night...

[Jannard]

Hey Brook,
From what I saw, it looked like there were going to be two different versions of the camera. One with the internal flash and one with the high-speed data port. There would be no switching.

You CAN switch between the flash card port and the high speed port (if you own both). That is a modular mount on the left side of the camera.

Jim

[Graeme_Nattress]

I prefer to use the word "smooth" and describe the feel as "chocolate" as "soft" has some negative connotations, but I agree with the sentiment. I'm enjoying getting such great feedback on the aesthetic.

Graeme

[Kjetil Haugen]

I prefer to use the word "smooth" and describe the feel as "chocolate" as "soft" has some negative connotations, but I agree with the sentiment. I'm enjoying getting such great feedback on the aesthetic.

Graeme

Hehe. Agree. "Soft" might sound like something with glow applied to it. My bad. Chocolate it is!!

[Yuval Shrem]

As for the REDCODE images, they were quick, and it did seem like the coloring was a little different than the previous shots, but I couldn't see any compression.


Wavelet compression will not introduce the same kind of artifacts that we are used to see with traditional video compression, so you need to know what to look for...

I did see a difference between the Redcode compressed version and the uncompressed version that were projected, however the Redcode clip was super short so what I'm saying here is based on my subjective observation.

It surely felt less detailed than the uncompressed version, but not necessarily in a bad way. While typically digital projection is inferior to film projection when it comes to storytelling, (Digital projection tends to draw attention to the imagery, while film projection helps keeping the attention on the actors and the story. I've attended test screenings comparing digital projection vs. film projection in which the two were compared using the same source materials, and I strongly support this theory...), the Redcode compressed clip seemed to magically have the storytelling advantages of film projection. I obviously can't explain the reasons to it, especially considering the super-short clip that has been projected, but that was my subjective feeling, and in my opinion, if I feel the same when watching a longer clip, that is a big deal by itself!

While I do hope Redcode Raw keeps improving, I do want to praise the fantastic visual esthetics of the Redcode Raw compression codec, which are in my opinion taking the right path for narrative filmmaking purposes.

:)

[Jannard]

"The Mysterium image is smooth, rich and creamy... just like chocolate". I kinda like the sound of that. hehe

Jim

[Brook Willard]

You CAN switch between the flash card port and the high speed port (if you own both). That is a modular mount on the left side of the camera.

Jim
Excellent, that's what I thought. How difficult is it to switch between interfaces? Are tools required?

[Jannard]

Four small bolts and an interface connection. A minute or two.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Fantastic, that's what it looked like from the images.

Can you please just make one feature about this camera absolutely suck? Just to get it out of the way?

[evexon]

It was a great experience meeting several people from this forum in person; Gibby and his production coordinator, Donatello, Mike Curtis, Brook Willard and his buddy, Jarred Land and many others whose names have escaped me. I just missed introducing myself to Curt as he dragged Jarred off between shows to see some top secret motion control system no doubt. Guess I should have followed them to get the low down. :) Also nice to shake hands with Jim and thank him again for gathering up the RED team and undertaking this task.

The energy was running high in the theater and for good reason. The 4K clips were stunning. I am still waiting for the reality to sink in that we will all have the potential to produce imagery of that quality on a daily basis. I thought the footage had a very unique feel; not film, not your typical digital acquisition (read: ultra sharp like HD) yet very cine. It should be a pleasure pushing RED footage around to see what kind of looks and feels we can come up with. Using Graeme’s chocolate metaphor I would say that watching the clips they definitely tasted like chocolate.

The refinements the RED team is making to the camera body and peripheral gear seem to be progressing towards a very usable final product. Heck I would use the camera if the sensor was housed in an orange crate, the images are that good. But luckily for us the RED team is on it and we will have a much sleeker design to have and to hold.

The REDcode raw at the end… Personally I couldn’t see the difference. To sum it up…

WOW.

[wigby]

(Digital projection tends to draw attention to the imagery, while film projection helps keeping the attention on the actors and the story. I've attended test screenings comparing digital projection vs. film projection in which the two were compared using the same source materials, and I strongly support this theory...):)

what do you mean by this? i suppose if you run a film and digital projection side by side, you'll have to draw some subtle differentiating factors but there are digital projectors installed all over the world and audiences don't seem to know or care. maybe it's more of a subconscious thing? in some rare (digitally shot film being digitally projected) cases, it's a grain thing but that hardly affects most projections of films.

[ts1]

No. You can do that yourself if you want to, but I don't. I think sharpening is one of the greatest evils of our time. It makes everything, even NHK 8k footage look like VHS - do it at your peril.

Graeme

I prefer under-sharpened images myself, though I do try to (partially) offset the effect of the AA filter. The presence of high frequencies at low amplitude gives you the filmic look.

Do you also blur downsized images to simulate an AA filter? Most people sharpen them a bit; I leave them alone.

Regards,
TS

[Graeme_Nattress]

When you downsample, yes, you should use a filter to stop aliassing.

When I can get my head back into Graeme space, I'm going to do some more R&D on "sharpening" and see if I can't come up with something I don't find objectionable.

Graeme

[ts1]

When you downsample, yes, you should use a filter to stop aliassing.

When I can get my head back into Graeme space, I'm going to do some more R&D on "sharpening" and see if I can't come up with something I don't find objectionable.

Graeme

The Lanczos kernel in my resizer takes care of aliasing, but is otherwise flat in the pass band. What I don't do is simulate an OLPF by attenuating the higher frequencies in the pass band.

Regards,
Tripurari

[Greg Voevodsky]

Graeme,

I look forward to seeing your 'sharpening' reality look. Like Orsen Wells, I do like a large depth of field, especially when I am shooting nature with a wide angle. I look forward to seeing some outdoor, wide angle, shots on the beach at sunset - both in a romantic Cinema mode - and in a sharp reality mode.

Thanks. Both have there purposes... Some of us like dark or mint chocolate. ;-) Depending on what your dinner was.

[insanityfw]

Too much sharpening and I'll never be able to shoot a movie with a practical make-up effect in it without seeing every seam.

Make my chocolate all warm and gooey.

[Sarmoti]

May I share that my prefered sharpening technique (as I can't stand regular sharpening/detail processing either) is setting an extremely large radius (tens of pixels) and fading the result out. This is more of a selective contrast manipulation which increases apparent sharpness instead of adding defined artificial contours for detail.

Depending on image content, sometimes I create an additional layer using a high pass filter and use an overlay mode over the original material, I then process that (high frequency detail) layer (may be blur, sharpen, levels, invert it, etc...).

I do this many times in the following combination: topmost layer is detail, next a blurred & processed (color & levels) version of the original material in a blending mode (normal, screen or overlay usually) & fade it out (for a slight diffusion effect) and next the original material. This ends up giving me a softer yet apparently sharper image which is lightly diffused (or sometimes heavily) but still with clear high frequency detail.

I don't know how these techniques look on 4K motion picture but I've used them with SD, HD and Print for a long time.

[Graeme_Nattress]

Mathew, I do something similar in LAB mode in photoshop for some of my digital images, the contrast pass at high radius, and then a smidgen of high pass blended in with overlay for edges. See: http://www.mbpgalleries.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=10068&pos=11

What I was thinking of was something a little more radical, but I think it's a Graeme R&D project for later down the line.....

Graeme

[Jarred Land]

Make my chocolate all warm and gooey.

ill take warm but gooey may be pushing it. I want it to melt in my mouth but not in my hand.

[Kjetil Haugen]

These are great techniques, Mathew and Graeme! Once you get into blending modes there's no turning back... That's the great thing with Red. You can do these changes if you like because the images are clean and untouched.

Not even Jesus himself would dare to make sharpening changes to the Red images at an early raw stage. I'm pretty sure he's got a reservation in too. Under an alias I'm sure ("Mr. Christ, Jesus" would be too obvious) ... and he loves blending modes when getting his CC on...

BTW. Great gallery Graeme! Cool to see that the Red team is not all tech.. that there's some artistic blood in you guys. I'm sure that will translate into the finished product..

[Graeme_Nattress]

Thanks! I think there's a quite a few keen photographers on the RED team besides Jim and myself.

Graeme

[Emanuel]

dvxuser.com member Mike Curtis @his_blog:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/11/notes-from-la-red-screening.html

[Sarmoti]

Mathew, I do something similar in LAB mode in photoshop for some of my digital images, the contrast pass at high radius, and then a smidgen of high pass blended in with overlay for edges. See: http://www.mbpgalleries.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=10068&pos=11

What I was thinking of was something a little more radical, but I think it's a Graeme R&D project for later down the line.....

Graeme

Can't wait to see what you come up with. The caliber of your work is always of a high standard.

[Akube]

two...

Jim

I sooooooo want to know how many there are in the UAE... please say im the only one who'll be having a red in that region. I've been asking that question like a hundred tiiiiiimesss.

thanks.