What to buy: Canon XH A1 or Sony V1U?

[Sean Michael]

These two cameras appear to be comparable in many respects. HDV, 24F/24p, $4k price range, 3CCD/3CMOS. Sony has HDMI out.

I think one of these will be my next camera. But which one? Anyone made this decision and reached a definitive conclusion?

[rawfa]

It's kind of early to jump to any conclusions. But to be honest the images I saw from the A1 REALLY pleased me. The A1 has everything I always hoped for. A LOT of image control options, great DOF with awesome bokeh, good latitude, pro audio, VERY good pseudo progressive mode...but it all boils down to the footage. I love what I saw. If you have the money I would take the aditional money you would put on the sony and buy a 35mm adapter.

[Ronbo]

HDMI out and no vertical smear are making me lean toward the V1.

[Bogdan]

For me two the most important advantages of Canon A1 are:

- larger sensors

- progressive compression in F mode which is more effective than encoding interlaced signal.

The only negative side of that is F footage can't be played back on 50i or 60i HDV devices made by other manufacturers, but that's really not a big problem. Sensor's size matters as it makes shallower, more artistic DOF easier to obtain with the camera. 35mm adapters are not very convenient and not always handy. And yes, I love the footage provided by Kaku also. Sony V1 promises to be very good cam. The choice is not easy, but for me these two advantages were more than enough.

[Kholi]

A lot of the HDV camera's native footage can't be replayed on other decks. JVC is included in this.

There's always an option of buying the Canon HV10. 1) You get a small playback deck for less than 1200 u.s. dollars. 2) A second HDV camera.

The HV10 DOES playback 24F footage, by the way. So you could master back to MiniDV, make two backups and carry the HV10 around to showcase your footage in HD via COmponent out, if you wanted.

V1 sounded nice at first, but I'm A1 or HVX all the way. Kaku Ito's footage sold me on the fact that he barely had time to play with it before getting us that great looking footage.

[Sean Michael]

A couple of weeks ago I bought a Sony HC3 ($1250). I'm assuming it will play nice with the V1 footage, plus the HC3 has HDMI out. So anyone considering the V1 could probably use the HC3 as a cheap deck, too.

HVX, unfortunately, is impractical for me because of the P2 workflow.

I'm leaning toward the V1, but want to carefully consider the A1 before making a final decision.

[Kholi]

From handling both the HC3 and HV10, I'd have to say the HV10 is much much better. That alone helps to inform my decision between A1 and V1u.

But I guess the best comparison will come when both cameras are released. If it's a hard decision then wait until January or February when both cameras will probably have been put through the paces.

[Bogdan]

I'd like to add one more thing. I like the idea of internal battery compartment in A1/G1. It fits largest BP packs and improves battery performance in extreme cold weather.

[Elton]

HDMI out and no vertical smear are making me lean toward the V1.

I think these are great features/attributes, but to me, that extra DOF of 1/4" is a real bummer. It's hard enough to get decent subject isolation with 1/3", and now it's just that much harder. Another thing we've yet to see is if Sony's HDV encoder is improved over the FX1/Z1. I think it's another bummer that Sony decided to stick with 1080i recording of 24P. It's a signifigant waste of bandwidth to endode pulldown. PAL users will probably have a better image than their NTSC counterparts due to this issue alone.

Canon's 24F mode is noticeably more motion-artifact resistant because of efficient progressive encoding and only compressing 24 fps.

Plus, it's so nice to simply capture and edit in pure 24p. Pulldown is a pain for a lot of different reasons.

[Kholi]

24F is also virtually indistinguishable from 24P.

I've yet to see a real difference between the two. Canon's 24F mode has also been around longer, improved upon.

To me, the A1 just stands out more. I like the HDMI out on the Sony, but hey... Component out is fine by me.

[AuditoryVisuals]

Resolution wise it's hard to tell which is better, the XH A1 has a 1440x1080 sensor, the V1U has a 960x1080 sensor. Three quarters full and half full. But the XH A1 is deinterlaced and has less verticle resolution. The V1U is progressive meaning it has greater verticle resolution. 1080p makes people go crazy over the camera, just look at the HVX200! But then look at the poor XL H1. The HVX200 has only one quarter the resolution of 1920x1080 with it's 960x540 sensor. So to a lot of people, resolution isn't the most important thing in the world.

Since the XH A1 records 24f as 48i, it may hold slightly less compression. But the V1U records 24p as 60i. Also, in Final Cut Pro, you cannot edit 30f, you'd have to use Adobe Premiere Pro. And 30p from the V1U is easily editable with any editing system that supports 1080i60.

Workflow: 60i vs 60i, draw. 30f vs 30p, 30p wins. 24f vs 24p, 24f is easier but 24p can be edited by a wide range of NLE's.

[henry cho]

personally speaking, i find it pretty hard not to get excited about the a1. i'll probably wait to see a little more of the v1u in action before i make a purchase, but if the a1 is really the xl-h1 sans the lens mount and sdi jackpack, i don't know if i need to see anything more. purely on picture alone, for me, the xl-h1 produces the most gorgeous images of any of the sub 10k hd cams, hdv or otherwise. add to that the pretty price tag and the redrock-friendly form factor, i'm pretty much sold on the canon.

[Kholi]

Resolution wise it's hard to tell which is better, the XH A1 has a 1440x1080 sensor, the V1U has a 960x1080 sensor. Three quarters full and half full. But the XH A1 is deinterlaced and has less verticle resolution. The V1U is progressive meaning it has greater verticle resolution. 1080p makes people go crazy over the camera, just look at the HVX200! But then look at the poor XL H1. The HVX200 has only one quarter the resolution of 1920x1080 with it's 960x540 sensor. So to a lot of people, resolution isn't the most important thing in the world.

Since the XH A1 records 24f as 48i, it may hold slightly less compression. But the V1U records 24p as 60i. Also, in Final Cut Pro, you cannot edit 30f, you'd have to use Adobe Premiere Pro. And 30p from the V1U is easily editable with any editing system that supports 1080i60.

Workflow: 60i vs 60i, draw. 30f vs 30p, 30p wins. 24f vs 24p, 24f is easier but 24p can be edited by a wide range of NLE's.

The new Final Cut upgrade alllows you to work with 24F HDV which means 24F can also be edited, now, in a wide range of NLE's.

Considering resolution isn't what people care about, you definitely can't say that the V1u, at this time, has anything over the XH A1. The footage we've seen from both clearly shows the A1 has the best image. I'd suggest waiting until the cameras go through their respective shoot-outs if you want to base the decision on the final image (which most should do.).

None of these cameras are 1080p. At most, they've the ability to do 1080i.

The more people speculate on which one is better, the more it's obvious that they should wait for a shoot-out, more footage from other users or until they can do their own tests.

[Sean Michael]

One plus for the V1 is the optional factory hard drive. $1800 gets you a 60GB Sony hard drive for tapeless recording. It interacts with the V1 natively (ie. info appears on the V1 LCD screen) & has a special anti-shock drop protection feature. I haven't seen anything like this from Canon.

I have a Redrock M2. Is the Canon more M2-friendly than the Sony?

[henry cho]

I have a Redrock M2. Is the Canon more M2-friendly than the Sony?

sorry sean... should have been clearer. i was comparing the xl form factor, which i've been using for years, with the a1's. not saying the a1's form factor is 'better', but it is certainly more m2 friendly.

[Sean Michael]

sorry sean... should have been clearer. i was comparing the xl form factor, which i've been using for years, with the a1's. not saying the a1's form factor is 'better', but it is certainly more m2 friendly.

Thanks for the clarification. I really do like the form factor of the A1. It reminds me of a DVX (in a good way).

[Elton]

Resolution wise it's hard to tell which is better, the XH A1 has a 1440x1080 sensor, the V1U has a 960x1080 sensor. Three quarters full and half full. But the XH A1 is deinterlaced and has less verticle resolution.

Actually, the way the Canon image is processed is full for the HDV 1440X1080i format.

Something to consider: The Canon sensor has widescreen 1.2 AR pixels that actually give it an effective horizontal resolution of well over 1600 pixels. From there, the camera only performs horizontal pixel shift to reach 1920. (which is an accepted method of gaining resolution) And HDV 1080i is an anamorphic format, which is meant to be "unsqueezed" to the full 1920x1080 HD spec.

For some reason, many seem to disregard the value of great horizontal resolution. The Canon, through internal processing, is effectively oversampled for the recording format and this helps it to achieve a very sharp, detailed look.

The Sony should maintain it's vertical resolution, but it's stretching a heavily interpolated horizontal reading of the sensor to fill in an "unsqueezed" 1920x1080 image, so it may be a wash as to which camera has better resolution.

Since the XH A1 records 24f as 48i, it may hold slightly less compression.

Again, some misinformation. HDV 24F mode is a PROGRESSIVE encoding and recording. The CCD's are read in such a manner that the encoder is fed a progressive 24p sequence, which allows for better compression efficiency. There's no 48i to tape.

Also, in Final Cut Pro, you cannot edit 30f

As a matter of fact you can. It's just not a specific preset, you have to make your own custom preset that uses the 1080p 24 HDV compressor, but you change the frame rate to 29.97.

And 30p from the V1U is easily editable with any editing system that supports 1080i60.

Same with 30F(P) mode. It can be captured in 1080i HDV easily.

Workflow: 60i vs 60i, draw. 30f vs 30p, 30p wins. 24f vs 24p, 24f is easier but 24p can be edited by a wide range of NLE's.

24F workflow is very easy with the latest FCP. Other NLE's work well too but as of right now FCP can actually print a 24F/P sequence to HDV tape.

[Kholi]

One plus for the V1 is the optional factory hard drive. $1800 gets you a 60GB Sony hard drive for tapeless recording. It interacts with the V1 natively (ie. info appears on the V1 LCD screen) & has a special anti-shock drop protection feature. I haven't seen anything like this from Canon.

I have a Redrock M2. Is the Canon more M2-friendly than the Sony?

There are plenty of other devices that, while not interacting directly with the camera, can capture footage from any camera. Sony's product is okay, but it's weighing in at 1800 when you can buy a Firestore for a few hundred more and get 100 gigs.

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/CamInfo-Selects-2006.htm

[rawfa]

Some of the cameras that received the awards weren't even tested yet. :huh: What do they base this on?!?!

[Sean Michael]

B&H is now listing the V1U at $3999.95 -- same price as the Canon! (Okay, $0.95 more.) I think I'm buying one at this price.

[Hugh]

Actually, the way the Canon image is processed is full for the HDV 1440X1080i format.

Something to consider: The Canon sensor has widescreen 1.2 AR pixels that actually give it an effective horizontal resolution of well over 1600 pixels. From there, the camera only performs horizontal pixel shift to reach 1920. (which is an accepted method of gaining resolution) And HDV 1080i is an anamorphic format, which is meant to be "unsqueezed" to the full 1920x1080 HD spec.

For some reason, many seem to disregard the value of great horizontal resolution. The Canon, through internal processing, is effectively oversampled for the recording format and this helps it to achieve a very sharp, detailed look.

The Sony should maintain it's vertical resolution, but it's stretching a heavily interpolated horizontal reading of the sensor to fill in an "unsqueezed" 1920x1080 image, so it may be a wash as to which camera has better resolution.



Again, some misinformation. HDV 24F mode is a PROGRESSIVE encoding and recording. The CCD's are read in such a manner that the encoder is fed a progressive 24p sequence, which allows for better compression efficiency. There's no 48i to tape.



As a matter of fact you can. It's just not a specific preset, you have to make your own custom preset that uses the 1080p 24 HDV compressor, but you change the frame rate to 29.97.



Same with 30F(P) mode. It can be captured in 1080i HDV easily.



24F workflow is very easy with the latest FCP. Other NLE's work well too but as of right now FCP can actually print a 24F/P sequence to HDV tape.
I have a question about editing 30f in Final Cut 5.1.2. Elton, you say that the way to edit 30f in Final cut is to create a custom setting by using the 1080p24 compressor, but change the frame rete to 29.97 fps. When I do this and place the 30f clip into the timeline I am forced to render the sequence, but if I place the 30f clip into a 1080i60 sequence there is no rendering needed. Can someone explain the best way (step by step) on how to best edit 30f in Final Cut. The 1080i60 Easy Setup seems to work perfectly. Is there any reason not to use this Easy Setup? Thanks, Hugh.

[Jay Rodriguez]

B&H is now listing the V1U at $3999.95 -- same price as the Canon! (Okay, $0.95 more.) I think I'm buying one at this price.


Wait, I thought the A1 was $3,695 at B&H

[Noel Evans]

V1 price has gone below A1 price here in Japan.

[mc9000]

Wait, I thought the A1 was $3,695 at B&H

The A1 is $3499.95 at B&H (http://tinyurl.com/yzj3wv) (http://tinyurl.com/yzj3wv%29)
I waited until the V1U was released, then decided to get the A1 last week. The growing online community of A1 users was a factor in my decision.

[Jack_Felis]

Man, if the A1 price drops any more then nothing stands a chance against it in terms of price/performance ratio! :)

I honestly haven't seen a V1U or even FX7 in person yet, but I have read some things and seen some footage here and there. The A1 I have seen in person and I thought it was really sleek and cool looking, surprisingly light too compared to a DVX (however subtle the difference). The image was very pleasing as well.

Honestly, Sean, I don't think you could go wrong either way. Based on everything I've seen, these cameras can be tweaked around enough to look much better than default or to look similar to one another, just as long as it's HD(v) you should be fine. The biggest weakness I see on the A1 is the lack of an HDMI out, because then you could use it as a studio camera with the Blackmagic Intensity card, not that you couldn't with a higher end card but it would have been simpler and cheaper with the Intensity. Other than that, it's up to you.

As far as 35mm adapter compatibility goes, I've heard mixed things about the A1, some say you should use a spacer tube, others say you shouldn't or don't need to. The V1 I haven't read much about in that regard, but a quick look around on the Redrockmicro forums should give you a general idea.

[Elton]

Actually, I think you can go wrong. Unless that oil paint effect has been eradicated on the V1U it doesn't make sense to buy it for 24p purposes. It looks pretty bad.

The other thing is encoding efficiency. There isn't a whole lot of HD footage from the camera out there, but from what I can tell the V1U suffers from the wasted bandwidth of adding pulldown into the HDV stream. This is a loss of at least 20% efficiency, which can make a difference in challenging motion scenes. That's not even commenting as to whether Sony's MPEG 2 encoder is actually as good as Canon's. Hard to tell at this time because it isn't allowed to encode progressive-only to tape.

The V1U may prove to be an excellent camera, but it has some issues that need to be carefully considered before pulling the trigger.

[Bucknfl]

I've shot with the v-1 and it has a nice 24p look. It is about 3 stops slower than a dvx100b. As far as the Cannon goes I would be hesitant to buy a camera that has no tape deck that will play the tapes.

[scannon]

I've shot with the v-1 and it has a nice 24p look. It is about 3 stops slower than a dvx100b. As far as the Canon goes I would be hesitant to buy a camera that has no tape deck that will play the tapes.

Canon has the HV10 for $949 and the new HV20 at $1100 due in April. These cameras will act nicely as a deck and are considerably less than any dedicated Sony, JVC or Panasonic deck. Many DVX user's use an inexpensive DV camcorder to play back tapes during capture. Now you have a similar although not quite as inexpensive option for the Canon HDV.

The HV10 plays back 24F and 30F in addition to 60i. The HV20 also offers playback of 60i, 30F, 24F and 24p.

There are no less inexpensive options for the V-1 unless you just use the camera for record and playback, and of course the same option exsists for the A1.

Good shooting

SCannon

[Sean Michael]

As posted above, I've got a Sony HC3 which is a really underrated (albeit now discontinued) camera. It's got HDMI-out for the Blackmagic Intensity inclined, and B&H now carries a $20 part that enables microphone input. I'm presently using the HC3 with an AT897 and getting nice results.

That said, the HV20 looks to deliver everything the HC3 does PLUS 24p and a cinematic gamma curve. An HV20 and XHA1 combo looks very appealing (although I'm curious how 24p and 24F will play together.)

[Emanuel]

Actually, I think you can go wrong. Unless that oil paint effect has been eradicated on the V1U it doesn't make sense to buy it for 24p purposes. It looks pretty bad.Barlow summed up the point especially this major one.

[Emanuel]

Canon has the HV10 for $949 and the new HV20 at $1100 due in April.It seems the future proof HDMI's & 24p HV20 is a better deal than each one of the elder sisters.

[azboy1985]

Can anyone tell me if the V1U or the A1 can completely turn off the zoom lever and can only be controlled by the zoom ring? Like the DVX100 zoom servo switch... Reason I ask is for the use of 35mm adapters, if you can turn off the zoom lever, you don't have to worry about accidently pushing it down.