so what now?

[VersuS]

Some are frustrated, some are happy, some feel mistreated, others can't believe what they're seeing.

Some did their movie for horrorfest, for others horrorfest was just an excuse. Some have better things to do, others will always come back for a fest.

To some this is motivation, to others just competitions. To some this was wrong, to others was home.

To all of you who participated though, it's time to think why you did your film, was it for the HVX or to get in someone's dreams? Do you want to make movies or just win all the goodies? If a fest is no fun anymore, should we make it NC from the top?

ps. I felt weird watching all the figures in my excel and making some comparisons, but in the end I knew that this excel was a load of crap to someone who just loves telling stories and sees a loooooooong way to go ahead of him, so excel or no excel, prize or no prize, the dvxuser fest is not your purpose in life and filmmaking, is just a way to commute those feelings towards filmmaking with others that you feel can understand.

Congratulations to those WHO ARE STILL HAVING FUN!

[Michael_Petro]

I wanted to make a movie and have fun... I did both :)

[n8ture]

I did it for the experience and to learn more about the craft.

I may never do anything in the future but nature and wildlife videos but the challenge of trying to put something like this together and to learn from it was my driving force.

For me, I accomplished everything I set out to do. I finished it which is a huge accomplishment in itself. It's allot of hard work as all of you that entered know.

I worked with some great people where I normally work by myself. It taught me how to work with other people and how to communicate with them.

It was a great experience, I met some great people who I hope to keep in contact with an work on something in the future.

I felt like I was on some kind of journey with sixty-five other groups of people and we all had a hell of a ride getting there!

[TheatreGuy]

I did it for the experience and to learn more about the craft.
True!!! :)


I worked with some great people where I normally work by myself. It taught me how to work with other people and how to communicate with them.
Not True...(for me at least!) :(


I felt like I was on some kind of journey with sixty-five other groups of people and we all had a hell of a ride getting there!
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!! One hell of a ride! :beer: :dankk2:

[Barry_S]

Well said, VersuS. I urge everyone to not take the spreadsheet too seriously--they're only numbers, and and not very accurate ones at that. There's nothing scientific about these numbers. Splitting hairs over decimal points is really silly when what's really important is getting out there and shooting and having a blast and learning something. We collectively enjoyed watching all of your films and regardless of your score, you have a lot of respect from everyone--especially those of us that didn't make a film. This isn't your NASCAR standing, so don't sweat a silly number.

[Beat Takeshi]

We just love doing this. Yeah in my present condition we should have just sat back and watched but I seriously could not sleep knowing we were not going to enter anything. Where there is a will theres a way though I believe and it seems all but the zombiefest were all pretty much last minute jammies. I think Herofest I had 3 weeks which feels like a life time now but I like that challenge of putting myself up against the wall and seeing if I can get it done. The best thing we have learned and honed is scheduling and time allocation to what we are doing and all the shoots go as planned and on time everytime so far. It's also taught us to make sure we have 2 plans, one thats not so glamorous but gets the job done and the final polished full idea thats the real goal. This way we can never say we didn't have enough time to finish, we just didn't have enough time to do it like we wanted.
This contest has allowed us to hear first hand what people liked and didn't like and most of the time its things we don't like also. It's funny how that goes but those things still go in the movie. We have met a ton of people here also, some we like, some we don't. We have colaborated with and learned from people here and it's refreshing to talk to people with the same goals in person. To be able to call someone up and say hey lets go hang and talk shop. Like N8ture said, before I got a DVX I was a 3D artist working alone in a software company and had NO ONE to talk to about 3D. All my friends left to Cali. to work on movies but I had to stay behind because I separated from my now x-wife and didn't want to leave my kids behind. Working with a crew is or should be fun as hell and I love it. I finally found something that probably will never get boring because of all the dynamics involved and the wrangling of many hats.

I give my utmost props to my girlfriend MsManhattan because she is the one that really makes most of everything happen. Talk about tenacious, she gets things done. Plain and simple and proven. She ALWAYS, ALWAYS pays attention to all the little details. If we do a one day shoot you can always expect her to hand you a 10 page report on what you are going to be doing on every minute of that day with wiggle room of course. Shes a natural in producing and keeps my ass in line. No I didn't meet her here but we have both learned here at the DVX academy.
I think I got off topic but congrats to all the winners.

[arielman]

To be honest I really wanted to sit this one out . After doing three shorts I was burned out a little . Besides all my other items were falling behind .
But My Brother wanted to try his hand at story telling and he needed a camera man and so here I was once again.
I only bought my DVX last year and not knowing anything about film making we jumped in and entered the Zombie Fest .Then the Sci Fi ( no outdoor filming again Re -weather ) then came the Hero fest . This was fun until the actor did a no show at the last minute .GGRRR.
and finaly the HORROR FEST .
These FEST are a great way to learn and DVX members are willing to help you with advice when needed .

I think most of us do it for the Fun ( well sometimes ..lol) The HERO FEST proved that .

I think I may sit this next fest out and wait til spring to try another .

Ian

[Gord.T]

I did it beacuse I was unemployed and it was something to do. My bro (Arielman) had no plans and was discouraged at the actors/friends-bailing-out-last-minute thing and totally fkn his storyline/script.

So I figured fkit. I'll try one just to keep things rolling and see what happens.
We wanted two months, we got two weeks. So what's new? So it aint pretty, but here it is.

I think 'Michael Petro' summed it up for me: "I wanted to make a movie and have fun...I did both." -and we're very glad you did Mike.

And it was nice to see Barry's comment above. It's not all about numbers, it's about gettin out there and doin it and expressing yourself and learning. And if this CD aint worth buyin, I dont know what is. I really don't.

-Gord.

[VersuS]

I understand that some people feel that they need more than just tweaking their skills with these shorts and have bigger ambitions. I wish (I guess) I was able to say that I feel bigger than these fests and want to do something longer. However I love that at this novice state I'm in, I've found dvxuser not only to read about important stuff but also to get the motivation to use these things. Since I don't work in this field and don't care about doing so, the only way to improve and use techniques I am so eager to use, is through entries I make for fests and what better chance than a dvxuser fest, where most of the participants have proved to be SO OPEN MINDED, SO WARM IN WELCOMING other members etc etc.
My God, I don't know what good it would make my film-making if I just did pieces and sent them out here and there in fests all over the world and got no feedback whatsoever. I could be doing the same crap for years.
At least now, I can see other people's work, talk about it, ask for advices, see how other people feel about my work, see what works, what doesn't...etc etc.

And I'll bring an amazing example. Love Is The Most Deceptive Feeling was submitted with text that I had put to emphasize on the story etc etc. Well my friends and family never questioned it....they never said anything about if it works or not apart from the fact that sometimes it went too fast and couldn't read it. But here, thanx to Cinealma at first and others who commented later, I was driven to do a title-less version that I would probably never do. And I LOVE IT! And people love it now more than before. And it has given me the chance to see that I used my images so well that the text was not needed to guide the viewer. And that was a HUGE lesson I learnt and also made me feel somewhat safe in my editing and imaging abilities.
If I had sent this piece in foreign festivals or even in Greek festivals...how could I get this feedback?
I hope that even if one day I feel that doing 6 minute shorts is not in my immediate interests, I will keep on doing them and participating in dvxfests, not only for the fun of it, but also to share all the things I've learnt from you guys, to the next users that will follow.
I think it's kind of selfish to acquire experience and knowledge and not give something back.

John

[jeremytuttle]

I'm a new member (even though I have been reading and stealing your guy's helpful tips for years:) ) but I couldn't agree with you guys more. I love making movies to make movies and even if I'm living in a box in an alley with a Hi8 shooting a movie about pigeons... I'll be happy. And I think that this place is a great place to look for feedback and advice from some very talented and intelligent individuals. I can't wait to submit some of my work for you guys to critique so I can make my projects better and in turn I can become a better filmmaker. So until then, happy movie making - Jeremy

[Mark Harris]

Well said, VersuS. I urge everyone to not take the spreadsheet too seriously--they're only numbers, and and not very accurate ones at that. There's nothing scientific about these numbers. Splitting hairs over decimal points is really silly when what's really important is getting out there and shooting and having a blast and learning something. We collectively enjoyed watching all of your films and regardless of your score, you have a lot of respect from everyone--especially those of us that didn't make a film. This isn't your NASCAR standing, so don't sweat a silly number.

I'm sorry, exactly how "not very accurate" are these numbers? It's not entirely silly to split hairs over decimal points when the prize is a $6000 camera.

Please explain exactly how the numbers are not very accurate.

[Mark Johnson]

He's not talking about the spreadsheet being inaccurate. Barry is saying that the structure of the contest and voting makes it ludicrous to use the spreadsheet as reflecting anything truly empirical about the relative values of the various shorts:

[QUOTE][There's nothing scientific about these numbers. /QUOTE]

The flaw is in the voters, not the software.

I also get your point completely. When Best Film equates to a 6K camera, the significance of a decimal point is obvious.

However, its sort of like the American judicial system in my opinion. It's hopelessly flawed with terrible results and unfairness at every turn. Unfortunately, it is also the best one in the world. Given a choice of having the spreadsheet or not having it, I think everyone agrees its best to have it for what it is worth.

[TheatreGuy]

Well, I for one hope that there are some changes in the voting system. I really didn't like the fact that a "best film" category wasn't in place. Maybe it wouldn't have changed the placements that much, but I believe that it would have changed some of them.

I like the idea of the individual categories as it places emphasis on the actual crafting of a film. But the current system left out how a voter "felt" about the film.

Also, and I don't know if this is accurate... but Jack D Stanley brought up an interesting point a few days ago in a different thread. (and forgive me if I am mis-quoting or misunderstanding what he said) But basically, if a film was voted on by only one person person (for example) and that one person gave this film very high marks, that film would rank high in the final results.

If I am not understanding this to be true, then my point is completely moot. But if it is true, I truly think that issue needs to be addressed. Either by taking that one single vote and dividing it by the number of films (which would obviously place it at the bottom) or some other means.

It just seems that if this is true, it is not an accurate account of it's placement.

But I may be wrong. Just something I understood of something I read.

[VersuS]

I agree with Ted, I saw some people coming after the results were presented to comment on some films claiming that they had just finished viewing them and others too said that they didnt watch all of the films.

SO:

a)did they vote for the films they did not watch? (which would be BS)

b)if they left blank the cells of the movies they didnt get to view, then those movies would not be rated properly at the final spreadsheet

I AM NOT saying that any of the above happened BUT if it did happen then it'd be unfair. I'd love to get some numbers on how many voted and a confirmation that all spreadsheets that were used for the final results were FULLY COMPLETED by the voters and had all movies rated

[Darkline]

At the risk of repeating what I said in another thread; cinema is a combination of ingredients which is much more than the sum of its parts. The fusion of all those individual elements creates an experience that cannot be reflected by breaking down the parts into technical achievements.

Currently there is no way to reflect this in the voting. This fest was great (and who am I to argue with the vote:-)) But I would like to see an overall vote for best film in future fests.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Ted it will never be a case of a movie getting 1 voter and winning.

The point is that a film's final score is the average of the #of voters it got, 45 or 65 or whatever. This is the only way to avoid A) and B) in VersuS post.

How else could you do it?

If you said that every film has to have 100 voters then you are not going to count all the votes from all the members. If Halfway had 100 voters and you were the 101st voter then too bad your vote doesn't count.

Or if you said that every audience member has to turn in a ballot with every row for every film filled in, then you will get VersuS example a) people would see the ones they want to see and randomly fill in the rest.

If you say there are a total of 125 ballots turned in so you decide to divide the sum total rankings for each film by 125 voters, then you get Versus example b) where the films wich are left blank on some ballots are hurt.

So your choices are:
1) The current choice: Its the average of the total voters per film, which means a film with fewer voters but a higher average rating amongst those voters could place higher than a film with more voters but a lower rating.
2) not count every one's votes by discounting any voters over the total number of votes recieved by the least viewed film. So if the least voted on film had a total of 40 voters and the most voted on film had a total of 100 voters then you have to not count 60 voters for the most voted on film. Could be your vote for that film that is tossed out!
3) opposite of 2) where you divide by the number of voters for the most voted on film. So in the example above the film with the most voters would divide by a bass of 100 and so would the film with the least number of voters (40 in the above example) and that would obviously hurt that film very much and not be fair to any of the films in between
4) require every ballot to be filled out in full which would result in people just randomly filling in lower numbers for the films they hadn't seen, or not voting because they couldn't see all the films.

While I agree that there should be a directing category and that there should also be an "entertainment" or "X" factor category ... given all of the problems with the above options, the current system of averaging a film's score only by the number of voters which votes on it seems to be the lesser evil.

It's not about TV ratings where the number of buts in the seats is what counts but about quality ratings, where regardless of the number of buts in the seats, it's what did the owners of those butts think of the film. Did the 40 butts give it a unanimous 10 and did the 100 buts give the highly viewed film a mixed 7? Ok the 40 butt film wins.

Also a film with only one voter with a 10 would not be counted as a winner.
a) I said in my post in another thread to which you refer THERE IS SOME MINIMUM NUMBER OF VOTES THE FILM HAS TO RECIEVE TO BE COUNTED likely based on the overall number of votes.
b) as shown by Darkline with Halfway, a competitive film will simply not have a very low view count. Here he is as an unknown on the board putting his thread up a week before the fest and it found an audience because it was good. If a film gets 9 or 10 voters it will not likely score a 10 or very high or it would have more voters.

[VersuS]

anyway all this is futile because in the end, when you say to people 'hey, vote about the sound or the lighthing' then you expect them to FULLY understand sound and lighting

well lads, not many people understand sound in here and yet they voted on sound
not many people know about acting but they did vote about it
and some people dont understand that screenplay and story are 2 different things, yet they said that 'rekindled lost in story because there was not a strong one' but the vote was for screenplay and a screenplay does not necessarily have to do about the story, the story may be boring as hell or clueless but the structure of this screenplay may rock!

anyway I suggest we leave things as they are because no final solution can be found to satisfy the masses

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

I think the way the votes are tallied is the only way to go -- again lesser of the evils detailed above -
But adding two categories:
1) "entertaiment factor" or "X factor"
2) "directing"
seems to be a generally popular ideas and is seem more thab feesable to implement.

I also think we could do more to educate or come up with offical definitions for the categories at least as we are using them for the festival.

[Mark Johnson]

:Drogar-Dum(DBG): I think that most of this controversy could be solved by simply awarding a RED camera to the highest score in the VFX category.:Drogar-Evil(DBG):

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Hah!

[TheatreGuy]

Thank you Jack for taking the time to expound on my post. Everything that you said makes complete sense.

Perhaps I really shouldn't have tossed in the second comment on my post (referring to the # of votes that a film gets). I really don't have a beef with that because in my mind, a film is going to garner votes and my example was an extreme (and an extremely bad one :) ).

I do agree that there should be the implementation of the two catagories, DIRECTING and QUALITY OF ENTERTAINMENT/X-FACTOR. I do feel that these are two key ingredients missing.

Thanks again for your post.

[Barry_S]

I'm already working on an new system with input from the other mods, Jarred, and some excellent technical support from some DVXusers who shall remain nameless for the time being. As always, I appreciate your feedback in these threads and I think the changes are in line with many of the comments I'm reading. Keep in mind that there are tradeoffs we have to make for every type of system, but we should have a significantly better way of running DVXfest that improves everyone's experience.

The declining number of voters clearly speaks to the fact that the current system is too complicated, there are just too many numbers for too many films. Although there is a (very) small hardcore group of you that rates every category for every film, we need a much simpler system if we have any hope of getting a wider circle of users to vote. So we'll have an easy to understand system that places much less of a burden on voters. In addition, we'll have significantly upgraded technical systems for entering, viewing, and voting on films. I can't say if it will all be ready for the next DVXfest because we'll be doing some serious beta testing and the last thing I want to do is roll out something half-baked, but we'll try to have most of it ready if possible.

[Brandon Rice]

Barry you rock dude!

[235 Studios]

Looking forward to it Barry, thanks!

I wish I could have voted for everyfilm- heck I wish I could have viewed every film. Anything to streamline the process would be great. Thanks again!