wax vibrating medium format adaptor

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Hi guys,

i want to share my DIY-Pro design of my medium format adaptor. It is based on Tõnis Liivamägi (www.cinedof.com (http://www.cinedof.com)) gg-holder. It is not yet finished i have to design the housing. The whole vibrating unit is kept in an aluminium ring that can be moved back and forth for infinity focus via the orange screw. I use a wax gg for superb bokeh and a planoconvex lens as condenser. I use a high end Achromatic Triplet (not in the pics) from Fraunhofer Institut here in munich for minimal achromatic aberration.

best regards
Daniel

http://www.jetsetmodels.info/pics/vibra70.jpg

http://www.jetsetmodels.info/pics/vibra70_1.jpg

http://www.jetsetmodels.info/pics/vibra70_2.jpg

[leteeci]

Just in short: WOW !!!!


Are you sure that you will need achromat at all, at such a large

picture/screen??

compliments!

david :beer:
</IMG>

[Wayne Kinney]

Nice,

It has been a while since anybody has done anything with wax screens as far as I know, especially on a vibrating setup. I would be interested in seeing this one develope.

[Alex.Flory]

Is there a copyright on Toenis vibrating GG holder design or the design is free all? I wouldn't mind giving this design a go. Anyone?

[Toenis]

Sorry for OT but I must declare that:

Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium, the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.

Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

* to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (including, typically, electronic copies)
* to import or export the work
* to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
* to perform or display the work publicly
* to sell or assign these rights to others

Individuals can file for alternative "licenses", or levels of restriction, for their works. These self-made protections free the general society of the costs of policing copyright infringement. The idea of open source is then to eliminate the access costs of the consumer and the creator by reducing the restrictions of copyright as you can see from the link in my signature.

My policy so far has been that as long as original author is mentioned it is free to use my design in non commercial applications but feel free to PM me for any other usage proposals.

Cheers,
T

[tigeba]

Copyright law does not cover designs. Thanks for playing!

[Alex.Flory]

Copyright law does not cover designs. Thanks for playing!

Hi Tigeba, can you elaborate on your comments? What if someone wants to use the design and incorporate that into their own adaptor design and sell the total package. Then what happened?

[morten]

Sorry for OT but I must declare that:

Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium, the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.

Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

* to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (including, typically, electronic copies)
* to import or export the work
* to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
* to perform or display the work publicly
* to sell or assign these rights to others



I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure this applies only to "non-functional" objects and entities (read writings, photos, artwork, art installations etc etc) but not functional objects such as machines and equipment. The latter is covered under patent laws.

It is my understanding that copyrights apply to "creative" work - things that are born out of the creativity of one or several minds and that would not have been reproduced otherwise. Patents on the other hand apply to concepts, things or techniques that use existing or designed elements to create something that has a separate function.

Example: A photo is a photo is a photo. There is no function to a photo other than what it is - a photo. A camera on the other hand is a contraption designed to take a photo. There are one million different ways of creating a photo - digital, b/w, C41, E6 etc etc etc. One particular photo on the other hand can only be produced once and then can only be recreated by duplication.

Copyrights apply to that which can only be created once - to the end product.
Patents apply to concepts, things or techniquest that are used to create what creates the end product. There are a million ways to get to the end product and each can be patented independently.

In this case I believe the only way a copyright would apply is if someone uses the existing images originally created by Toenis to create a new picture without asking. As far as the overall design of the contraption (in this case the vibrating GG) goes there is no copyright. Toenis could get a patent for the design (has to be done in all countries individually - there is no such thing as an international patent) but even then someone else could simply take the design and change some parts to make it proprietory (which is pretty much what has been done here).

I'm a university trained philosopher, not a lawyer, but I believe I am correct here.

mor10

[tigeba]

Hi Tigeba, can you elaborate on your comments? What if someone wants to use the design and incorporate that into their own adaptor design and sell the total package. Then what happened?


Patents cover designs and methods. Copyright cover works. If you want to incorporate an existing design into yours, this is an area of patent law, not copyright.

[morten]

Patents cover designs and methods. Copyright cover works. If you want to incorporate an existing design into yours, this is an area of patent law, not copyright.

what I said, albeit in a more convoluted way.

To Tõnis:

This is the real danger of putting your ideas on the internet (or anywhere else for that matter): once out there anyone can steal it, redesign it or do whatever they want with it. Even if you did patent your design in Estonia (which based on your name is where I'm assuming you're from) anyone outside of Estonia could still take your desing, change something small and then re-patent it elsewhere. Which is what they keep doing in Taiwan resulting in a multitude of products that are pretty much the same from different companies.

it sucks big time but it's the reality of our law-ridden world. The social contract that is meant to protect us from injustice is really nothing more than a deal between corporations on how best to screw the man on the street in the best way possible.

As it is anyone can take your design, put it in a product, sell it or even patent it so you can't use it without you doing a damn thing about it. unless you want to spend tons of money on patenting it yourself. There really is no good way of dealing with this.

unless you want to make the design public domain, in which case anyone can use it.

Just to illustrate the point: Nikola Tesla invented what we know as the radio transmitter. Unfortunately he didn't pay attention and forgot to patent or re-patent his designs which opened the door for Guglielmo Marconi to patent and commercialize the invetntion. It wasn't until 1943 - several months after his death - that the US Supreme Court credited Tesla for the invention - and this only because Marconi had claimed to be the original inventor even though he had based his work on Tesla's. Had Marconi changed the design even slightly he would still have had the patent even though Tesla invented the radio.

Food for thought

mor10

[rawfa]

Schaumberger, I really hope you make it. The G35 used wax and it rocked hard! I'll be rooting for you.

[Toenis]

... and still we are talking about Nikolai.

When I was a child, back in USSR I dreamed about being copied, just to be like Adibas an Reabok sneakers from black market ;)...

It takes about 6 months for a patentent to take effect in each and every country of the world. And if patent is not taken in Brunei for example one can easily copy and take an advantage of a patent already published in USA.
If you`ve ever done a patent study in university you`ll probably know.

Patents are ideas for sale and for public display and research, for DIY people, to take inspiration.

In my 7 years of studies in industrial design i`ve learnt that open source is the source of sustainable creativity and personal success.

There are no enemies, just sustainability.

Feel free,
T

[Alex.Flory]

Thanks for all the info, I meant to say both as in copyright and patent. Sorry for the confusion. I know well enough not to take people's idea and use it without prior consent. Although Quyen's vibrating GG holder idea was conceived by some people in the forum I tend to believe that Toenis idea is quite unique and i have not read annywhere that this design ever being discussed (correct me if I am wrong).

After doing lots of tests on many different ideas, basically if a great idea comes along and free for all, why not. But I am thinking of bringing the idea a step forward by combining this idea and my idea of a flipped adaptor to the market. With Toenis permission of course. Daniel has done it, so can anyone else do it.

When Toenis said feel free, I assume he means its ok and anyone can go ahead copying his idea. Can I assume its ok to incorporate this idea in one's adaptor and commercialise it for people who wants a vibrating GG with flipped function and has a rod system? Or am I jumping the gun here. Please clarify. I would like to go ahead testing Toenis idea and see if it works with my adaptor before showing it to the public.

[stephenbuck]

Just to complicate matters, here's my situation relative to this discussion. I've also been working on a similar design for quite some time with the intention of eventually offering it for sale in some form. My patent research shows that there is a fair bit of prior art in this area, going back a number of years. Two obvious areas with relevant patents are vibration reducing electric motor mounts (concentric leafsprings and elastomers) and laboratory sample shakers (3 axis eccentric drive).

My own inspiration came from yet another area: the literature on using "flexures" (or frictionless springs -- sort of like leaf springs) for things like X-Y stages for optical switching, electron microscopes, and semiconductor photolithography. In most of these systems, however, the movement (or vibration) comes from piezoelectric elements situated between the "springs" and the surrounding structure.

Do I stop my development or press forward? Tough question.

I think it's quite possible for us to freely exchange ideas in a community form AND reward entrepreneurs who wish to add some value to a community design in some creative way -- as long as it's not blatant exploitation of other's efforts. My background is software development and it's very commonplace for commercial products to make use of open-source libraries and components. It's all legal and generally encouraged.

I definitely don't want to diminish the creative work that has been done on this though -- it's really top notch work!

[BrianMurphy]

Is this the DIY area ?

[j]

piezoelectric sounds like the way to go, if you can find the right frequency and size motor... ;-)

[waefre]

What is the mechanism or vibration. I understand the construction allowing vibratino but what is it that drives it all. There's not any info at the Cinedof site.

[wjm]

CineDov apparently uses a 12mm vibrating motor, of a flat variety.

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Its a flat vibrating disc motor.
I saw some identical disc motor in an Alcatel One Touch 300, 301 or 302.

If someone knows other source where to get this disc motor please send me a email. In germany i cant find this vibrating disc motors.

This one here was the first used motor in 35mm adapters from hobbyengineering (diameter 14mm / 3,3mm thick) but now its sold out:

http://www.jetsetmodels.info/pics/1e120.jpg

[Alex.Flory]

Hi Daniel,

I have checked all over, even to the Sanko manufacturer themself. They are stopping production of the above 1E120 motor. In fact they are going to phase out all 14mm diameter motor. Apparently they are going to concentrate on making motor smaller for ever smaller handphone sets and other electronic devices. However, they do have a batch of 400+ 14mm motors produced by Tokyoparts that I and another forum member were supposed to buy but the test on a couple of sample motors showed their performance still fall short of the 1E120 model performance.

It seems like our Mini35 holy grail is making its disappearing act. If you search for website producing vibrator motors, you will notice they dont have any 14mm motor, except 12 and 10mm.

Does your GG holder use the sanko motor or 12mm motor? Toenis reported he got good result with the 12mm motor attached to his GG holder.

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Hi Alex,

on the 35mm adapter i use the 12mm motor. But for the medium format adapter i think its to small (-not tested yet-). Waiting for the ordered plastic material.

[Alex.Flory]

Hi Daniel,

Ok, if the 12mm motor works on the medium format, then the GG holder design is the way to go. Cos the letus method requires a 14mm sanko motor. No other motors will do. Are you also using the same GG holder concept in your 35mm as with the design you put up in this thread? If so, how is the grain issue? Is the grain travelling in a circular motion? Cos, my 14mm motor i tested, the GG still show up a little in my mini35. I am thinking of using Toenis design for my personal mini35 adaptor just as you have done. Can you post some shot of your 35mm adaptor footage showing how the grains before and after the motor is turned on? Thanks.

[waefre]

This site seems to sell the 14mm motors http://www.totalrobots.com/acatalog/Total_Robots_Motors_30.html
Is there any footage out there of the vibrating type adapter in use? I've seen tons of footage from ratating and static glass but only heard talk about vibrating glass.

[Alex.Flory]

This site seems to sell the 14mm motors http://www.totalrobots.com/acatalog/...Motors_30.html (http://www.totalrobots.com/acatalog/Total_Robots_Motors_30.html)
Forget the site. I was sent the 12mm motors instead of the 14mm as shown on their website. And they didn't even bother to ask me if the change was ok. There isn't anymore 14mm motor out there that is of the type 1E120. I am sure some unknown toy shop or electronic shop somewhere at a corner of a street has it but unless they have a online store, i dont think anyone here can find it. If anyone can please do let us know.

[leteeci]

Its a flat vibrating disc motor.
I saw some identical disc motor in an Alcatel One Touch 300, 301 or 302.

If someone knows other source where to get this disc motor please send me a email. In germany i cant find this vibrating disc motors.

This one here was the first used motor in 35mm adapters from hobbyengineering (diameter 14mm / 3,3mm thick) but now its sold out:



I didn't got this right.. Is it you say that Alchatel One Touch 30x motor is equvivalent to Sanko 14mm diameter, or to that with 12mm diameter ???

Cheers,

david:beer:

[Alex.Flory]

If you are going to use any 14mm motors, you have to get the 1E120 Sanko motor as shown in the picture posted by Daniel and no other cos all the rest has been tested and they just don't work as well as the sanko motor. Now, the motor has been discontinued by the manufacturer. So if you can find some, then some store must still have some stock left over. If you do get them, great cos they are the one to look for. Not sure whats in the Alcatel phone, if it doesb't say 1E120 on the top, then probably won't work as well.

But as Toenis said, maybe 12mm will work just as well as the 14mm Sanko motor if and only IF used with the GG holder he has designed and built or the one Daniel has built.

Daniel, any latest news on my question to you in this thread? Thanks.

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Hi Alex,
im busy at the moment. But when ive got my cam back "Its only a Sony 1CCD TRV125" i will post some grabs with and without vibration.

[Alex.Flory]

No Prob. Anytime when you can.

[Toenis]

Yes, my design can utilize 12mm coin type vibration motors as well as 10mm ones. In fact 12mm motors are too powerful even at minimal rated voltage of 2.4V so one can use those even at 1.2V and therefore doubling the service life. Adible noise reduces threfore too and that`s why we are using those in our CINEDOF products too.
Threre are even 8mm coin type or so called pancake vibration motors available but those aren`t available to general public in small volumes.

Cheers,
T

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Hi guys,
had some time today to do a quick tutorial on how to create easy wax-gg's using the capillary action. After i got my cam back i will post some 35mm grabs.

NEW!!! WAX-GG in 5 easy steps! With detailed pics and infos! FOR FREE ;-)

http://www.jetsetmodels.info/pics/WAX_GG_in_5_easy_Steps.pdf (1.25MB)

Daniel

[Kdawg]

Daniel!!!! That is absolutely beautiful!! The GG looks fantastic, and nice tutorial!!

How is the footage from this?

Oh, and where would the waxes be found at? Do I have to order online or at certain stores?

[Alex.Flory]

HI Toenis,

Is there any possibility of fatigue failure of the leave springs after prolong use? Probably good to test one unit by running it non stop for a month and see if the GG holder is still in good shape.

[Car3o]

well, he really set the bar on DIY. Probably almost all of the major 35mm adaps are gonna use wax now.

[bklyndv]

Nice looking tutorial -- can't wait to see what the footage looks like!

[waefre]

I would never have thought of using the capilary action to make the screen like that. How in the world did you ever come up with that? I've been making my wax screens in almost exactly the same way (double glass sanwhich, tape spacer, etc...) But I always would heat everything up and then pour the wax over one layer of glass and then try to sanwhich it. Everything had to be absolutely perfect to get it right and thhen if you have just one little air bubble it's all over. My latest adapter used a spinning glass but I'm really excited about going back and making a few wax screens now.

[Toenis]

Alex,

The fatigue of leaf springs really depends on material used. If you use a material with Derlin-like properties you can ensure the longest possible lifecycle for this kind of vibrator. We have tested our vibration units in 24h runs (per one AA 2500mAh cell) under different temperatures for about 720 hours without problems.

T

[Alex.Flory]

Ok, Great. Thanks

[waefre]

TOenis do you have any footgae post of your glass in action?

[rawfa]

Schaumberger, are you building the adapter just for your self or are you planning to sell it too? I certainly hope so. The best footage I've seen from any 35mm adapter came from a wax solution (G35). I'm simply dying to see some footage. Do you know how much light it loses?

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Hi rawfa,

i tweaked my gg-holder to work with the cheap vibramotors i have here in germany.
For the 35mm adapter im thinking to sell a kit that contains only a gg-holder, and motor for EUR 39,- without infringing the patent of p+s. The tutorial for building the kit incl. wax-gg and diy macro with links to the "Jin She Jie Quan - tube" sources here in germany will be free of course. If someone cannot build the gg it will be sold separately. For the 70mm adapter i have not yet found a tube or case.

I have to post some grabs and footage first. I borrowed my cam to a friend for filming a wedding. When i get it back the first thing will be to capture some wax-gg material.

Daniel

[leteeci]

For the 70mm adapter i have not yet found a tube or case.




Daniel!



Did you succeed to vibrate GG from medium format cameras for 1mm?


Any tests with 70mm adapter??


Would it be 2.8 F-stop lens from MF fast enought for DOF adapter?


thanks for help,



david

[NOMADIC]

wass there any footy? ever? I've gota broken mamiya i am about to scrap to make an adapter with...

[iDV8]

I've been ogling over your site Daniel. I'm ready to buy an adapter and now you're tempting me to make my own. That's just crazy! No sane person goes about making fine equipment like this on the kitchen table!
OK, so I'm very good at this kind of tinkering but all this lense stuff is new to me and you make it look like a semi intelligent monkey could put one together if he follows your tutorial. I'll be sending you an email shortly.
Are there any of you figuring out how to make the mirrored flip component?