Brevis 35 vs. m2 redrock adaptor

[sbrown86]

I'm looking to get a lense adaptor for the HVX...I'm curious if anyone knows the differences between Brevis 35 and the m2 redrock adaptor

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Both produce fantastic images when setup and used properly. I've seen images from both that rival one another. Do some research and get the one you feel is right for you.

I have one of these two on order right now.

[AbstracTheory]

a friend and I are doing a side by side comparison of the M2 and the brevis as soon as the brevis comes in... results coming as soon as possible

[cbdv]

Very interested in comparison AT, one of my favorite lenses is an aspherical 28mm -300mm Tamron zoom lens, will that be able to be used with the M2 or brevis?
thanks

[Dennis Wood]

What speed is your 28-300? Best results are generally with primes, particularly fast ones. The effective max f/stop for some zoom lenses at 300mm may be something like f6 or so, meaning you'd need a ton of light to make this work!

I've just got an 80mm OCT19 Lomo (cinema lens) which at f2 is almost making me cry. I will literally be breathing over the shoulder of our CNC folks to get this thing mounted.

[cbdv]

Thanks Dennis, range is 3.5 to 6.3 , sounds like it should be OK around 5 to 6 is fine anything else, and I have to move closer to the Sun. Thanks. I will be making a decision this month and depending on Cinepoter expenditures I will get some 35MM adapter soon.

[rgdfilms]

Like Abstract Theory just said, he and I will be doing a shootout between these two adapters with a little write-up review to go along with - I currently own the M2 and I love it, except for a few issues - The Brevis caught my eye due to its easy setup time and run and gun abilities - We will know soon enough!

The test will consist of Nikkor lenses and a 3-5 locations and lighting setups..

28mm 2.8
35mm 2.0
50mm 1.8 (my favorite)
85mm 2.0

Expect this around the third week of October..

:beer:

[JaydeeG83]

I heard that the makers of the Brevis actually claim that you gain a half-stop of light when you use it. That cannot be true, but it's interesting thing to look into nonetheless

[cinebuddy]

I heard that the makers of the Brevis actually claim that you gain a half-stop of light when you use it. That cannot be true, but it's interesting thing to look into nonetheless
Dude the Brevis is almost too bright. The original GG has very little diffusion while still producing a pleasing Bokeh. While I don't run around measuring stops, I know i'm not losing any with the Brevis. Stopping down your lens is a must when using the Brevis with a fast lens.

[Dennis Wood]

It is very bright...and we recommend ND filters on the 35mm lens in bright conditions. The GG is like film, overexpose it and your image suffers. I responded to the light questions here... (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=551643&postcount=14)

Basically if you are using a 50mm f1.4 lens, expect the total loss from the adapter and lens to be .5 to .7 stops. Add another .3 to .5 using the diffuser option.

[Bogdan]

That pretty much sounds like optional screen element that comes with Redrock M2. It has less diffusion than CineScreen which is built in M2 by default. If you want to shoot in low light with M2, you can change the screen element, but CineScreen is the best in most situations.

[VeEuzUKY]

Does the Redrock M2 invert the image so its not upside on the camera's viewfinder? If not, are there any other adapters that do?...

[Zak Forsman]

Does the Redrock M2 invert the image so its not upside on the camera's viewfinder? If not, are there any other adapters that do?... I know at least the Brevis doesn't...
the Brevis and the M2 both invert the image.

[Lenilenapi]

rdq,
That sounds like a great test but a little overkill for most of us on the forum.
the simple questions could be answered in a few minutes with one lens in one set-up.
1.Does it lose less light?
2. Is it as sharp?
3. It might take more time to answer whethr the alternate screens on the Brevis alter the equation on the above 2 issues.

- Lenny Levy

[Nathan Drillot]

The Movietube does not invert the image, however it costs upwards of 13,000 US, at that point it seems a little silly. I'd rather use the M2 as a work around and save $11,500.

I'm interested to see how the Brevis and the M2 stack up.

Too late for me though as I have the M2

[VeEuzUKY]

The Movietube does not invert the image, however it costs upwards of 13,000 US, at that point it seems a little silly. I'd rather use the M2 as a work around and save $11,500.

I'm interested to see how the Brevis and the M2 stack up.

Too late for me though as I have the M2Nathan thanks for the info. I am assuming, aside from using the movietube, with the other adapters get you get setup with a rig with an external LCD monitor that flips the image around... something like that, right?

... I took a close look at the movietube's website and... yes... 13,000 US is surely a lot (!) of cash, but, I have to say the system looks absolutely killer!

[Nathan Drillot]

Indeed,

I didn't feel like using any of the work arounds to flip the image on the LCD ( Magnet, paper clip, etc..) so I'm buying this..

http://www.xenarcdirect.com/product.php?productid=16137


I know it's not HD but it's also much much cheaper. For now it will do the trick until I can get something better. I also religiously believe in using a field monitor for the director and DP, so the onboard is just so the OP can frame and do their job.

Oh and it's really easy to just turn the monitor up side down.

For sure the Movietube looks AMAZING. In a perfect world I'd have one on my HVX right now, but really, by the time you buy the HVX and 2 P2 cards, either a P2 store or a lap top, and the movietube your looking at well over 20k. At that price It becomes much harder to validate still shooting on a 1/3" chip.

[Cynic821]

2400 x 480 ?! typo

[Kholi]

Can you mount pro lenses to either of these adapters? Like Zeiss Superspeeds?

[Nathan Drillot]

I know you can mount any PL mount lense to the Red rock if you buy the PL mount version. Not sure on the Brevis35

Just noticed that 2400 x 480 thing,

The monitor was recommend by gear dear (geardear.com) so I trust them. I'll look into it though.

[StMad]

On the horizontal resolution each dot is actually just one of the RGB colors. If the resolution is 2400x480 dots you would get the actual pixel resolution by dividing the horizontal dot resolution by 3, giving you 800x480 pixels.

[Dennis Wood]

We have PL and OCT19 mounts for the Brevis. We've posted a quick clip here. (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=73931)

[JasonFox]

Bear in mind when looking at LCDs that the first resolution number often needs to be divided by three to get the actual resolution. Don't ask me why they do this, but they're counting the separate RGB elements in the horizontal. So that monitor is 800x480, which isn't too bad. I don't have the Xenarc, but my LCD is that resolution. It works, but mine isn't bright enough. But I only paid around $100 for it, so I don't complain.

Anyway, I, too, look forward to the M2/Brevis smackdown. I have an M2, but I barely have enough lights to shoot with it indoors. Otherwise, I dig it.

Fox

[Bokes]

A bit off topic- but is it possible to use a matte box with Brevis and 35mm lens?
If so what are you guys using?

[Cynic821]

yes it is. im using the hysonfilms.com mattebox and follow focus with the M2, and cant wait for his new one

[Nathan Drillot]

Just out of curiousity but what are the differences between the M2 and the Brevis.

thanks

[PaPa]

i dont know much about either, but form what i can tell, the brevis is cheaper, and much more customisable. I read somewhere bout changing the GG, lens mount changes, and it looks alot ligher as well.

[Bokes]

The M2 claims it only weighs a little over a pound and - i don't know- looks more professional.
Also the online footage between the two- IMO- the M2 looks better.
BTW- what type of lens works best with this system? (I have Canon, Nikon and Pentax lens)
Thanks

[Peter R]

Would my century telephoto lens work with any of these or even be neccassary for that matter?

[Paul Nordin]

No you can't use your century adapter. Both Brevis and M2 need to fit over/on the HVX's lens. On the 35mm side of the adapter, you would use 35mm primes or zoom lenses...not the century adapter.

BTW- I don't think the M2 is more expensive than the Brevis.

[zoostory]

The Brevis is also screw on and the M2 is not, thus with the Brevis you can go without rails for handheld (though I'd still hold on to the brevis for support!). The Brevis is also carbon fiber, will have a filp module, follow focus, changable ground glass, PL mount, etc. And it is cheaper.

For a while I thought the M2 was the better looking adaptor as well, then I saw this:
http://www.cinevate.com/images/tracksLaneway.mov

Bob does great work. It reminded me that when the Redrock came out, everyone said it had crappy footage and the G35 was the only way to go... now the G35 seems to be vanished off the map and history is repeating itself with the Brevis and M2.

For what it's worth the Redrock people were not very nice and responsive to me, and Dennis Wood, creator of the Brevis, has been very kind. He had some production hold ups (due to a certain companies Achromat distro) but is on track now with the Brevis, so now is a good time to buy, as you will actually get it soon.

[Lenilenapi]

There is a lot of speculation on these pages about how the Brevis will compare to the M2.
Clearly if it lives up to its promise the Brevis may have advantages - that is if it does need less light, is equally sharp and is as well made.
Until someone has both in his hands to compare head to head we will not know. I just ordered a Brevis and already own an M2. i'll let you know what I find out when I get mine.

[Nathan Drillot]

I don't give much credence to online footage. Unless I can see the same shots back to back with the exact same settings it's all arbitrary.

I agree with Lenilenapi that we just have to wait till we can see a comprehensive side by side test.

[AbstracTheory]

Still waiting for the BREVIS... hopefully it will come soon!!

[Peter R]

People i start shooting a 1 hour block pilot Nov 26th and am still confused as to which adapter to buy, will somebody extremely qualified please shed some light on this situation for me

forever indebted
Pete
www.illyrian-ent.com

[cbdv]

Buy the Brevis, while I have not done the consumer reports analysis, it seems to have high grades in most areas and minimum negatives, price is competitive and well, that is what I decided on after 8 months of looking, and by the way, I don't have it yet. my 2 cents.......Chuck

[carlone]

People i start shooting a 1 hour block pilot Nov 26th and am still confused as to which adapter to buy, will somebody extremely qualified please shed some light on this situation for me
www.illyrian-ent.com

With a production date that close you may have to "rent". These products have to be orfered and there's usually a waiting list.

As for which product to buy - like others have said, the BREVIS has only now begun shipping.

I have the M2 and I love what it allows us to do. Typically, IMHO, it's never an either or choice because what works for some may not work for others. You have to try them both out and see what works for your style. I suggest renting.

[Peter R]

thanks guys,


Pete

[bvalente]

Just to clarify - the M2 is available now and ships within one week. There is no waiting list.

Cheers

Brian

[HagerNYC]

What's the difference between the M2 adaptor and the SGpro? Just wondering. The footage from both looks great.

[flassh]

Biran wrote "Just to clarify - the M2 is available now and ships within one week. There is no waiting list."

Are you sure Brian ? I have ordered mine since 11 days and there is nothing in my mailbox...

[bvalente]

Yep - new orders ship within the week. Drop a line to sales@redrockmicro.com with your order number for a status update.

[flipsidekrew]

a friend and I are doing a side by side comparison of the M2 and the brevis as soon as the brevis comes in... results coming as soon as possible
is it coming pretty soon??

[Peter R]

I'm ordering the brevis 35mm HD bundle, what mount would be best for me, I'm a semi budgetless self proclaimed filmmaker who occassionaly does a music video too.

Pete

[Dennis Wood]

Peter, Nikon or Canon FD would be the two best choices.

[Hans Moleman]

I went with the Nikon mount, and used lenses of excellent quality are in abundance. Apparently, all the photographers went digital, so a whole mess of amazing Nikons are sitting in my local camera shop (and BH's used section) for about 1/3 retail. Just picked up an UNTOUCHED nikon 28mm 2.8 AIS for about 100 bucks.

[StormFactory]

Like Abstract Theory just said, he and I will be doing a shootout between these two adapters with a little write-up review to go along with - I currently own the M2 and I love it, except for a few issues - The Brevis caught my eye due to its easy setup time and run and gun abilities - We will know soon enough!

The test will consist of Nikkor lenses and a 3-5 locations and lighting setups..

28mm 2.8
35mm 2.0
50mm 1.8 (my favorite)
85mm 2.0

Expect this around the third week of October..

:beer:Did this happen yet? If not, I'll bring my Letus35 Flip Enhanced and it can be a three way shootout. That way we can finally get some comprehensive side by side comparisons. I've had the Letus a couple days now on my DVX100A and it's sharp and bright, but want to know how it will handle on the HVX200. Quyen, the creator of the Letus, said that it will work. Let's put it to the test.

[Mars United]

Yes please!

[Matty_g]

They have a letus HD now i think. has anybody tried it?

[StormFactory]

If you are talking about the LetusHD100 it is here http://www.letus35.com/page4.html and is only for the JVC HD100 Series.

Looking at the photos it seems like the base of the LetusXL and LetusHD100 is the Letus Flip Enhanced which is what I have. It will mount on the HVX100 with an 82mm to 72mm stepdown ring.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I just got my Brevis and I must say the design and build quality is superb. It's also very light. Will be doing some shooting over the coming weeks. I'll post some stuff soon.

[siniarch]

Hey Guys,
I order my M2 Adapter on Nov 15 it shipped on the 21st. If you ask me its pretty fast. I also got a few messages from Brian because I was having issues signing in to their forums. So, I would have to say that customer support has been good so far, and although they quoted me 2-3 weeks it seems like its shipping 1 week after I order it. :)
I should be getting it this Friday and I can't wait.
As for the Brevis it also looks like a wonderful product. I'm sure both produce a wonderful image.
What ever happened to the Comparison that was going to take Place between these two adapters. I'm sure many are eager and waiting. I know I am. Even though I've already made my choice.
Also there are a few people who have found a work around the soft connection to a camera with the m2 and made it a hard connection to it. I will be doing this also because I don't think fuzzing with the set up all the time is the way to go. I will report back on this.
And finally, I also ordered the CineScreen GG. which is supposed to be a higher quality ground glass. I am very new at all this video stuff, but will try to conduct my test between the two screens. (the default one that comes with the adapter and the CineScreen)

[Lenilenapi]

What is this about a "CineScreen". I have an M2 but was never told anything about a "cinescreen"., Why should there be a higher quality ground glass that doesn't ship with the adapter? Does it require more light?

[siniarch]

Hey Lenilenapi,
I know what you mean. Aren't we paying enough. hahahaha.
But there seems to be a new screen that Redrock Micro is producing. (some call it version 3) Its only available to customers of the M2 not the DIY.
here is the link:
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.472981/it.A/id.111/.f
As for the light loss, I'm not sure. It would be nice if Redrock conducted their own test regarding image quality and light loss.
(ex. one room with controlled light and one of those calibration boards with the focusing areas and a grey scale and a color scale. Set up the camera with no adapter. Adjust the lights so that the camera can be in f5.6 and the image be perfectly balanced. Then add the adapter with a prime lense 50mm 1.4f keep it open at 1.4 and see how much you have to open the camera lense to get it back to balance the card. They could also post pictures of these test and let the viewers decide for themselves.)

[Mars United]

I just got my Brevis and I must say the design and build quality is superb. It's also very light. Will be doing some shooting over the coming weeks. I'll post some stuff soon.
Would you mind explaining the set up process? I've been searching to try to find info on that question. Is it simply a screw on attachment? Thanks. :beer:

[JasonFox]

What is this about a "CineScreen". I have an M2 but was never told anything about a "cinescreen"., Why should there be a higher quality ground glass that doesn't ship with the adapter? Does it require more light?

The Cinescreen has been shipping with the M2 for over a year. I got mine in October 05 and it has the Cinescreen. It's basically the third generation of RR's ground glass.

[siniarch]

ahhhhhh.
Well, looks like I will be having an extra cinescreen to play around. I was also dabbling in making a Home made one. I bought the DIY, so maybe I'll use it on that one for a B camera. if I ever get a B camera.
Thanks,
Luis

[krish]

siniarch, you mentioned something about the hard connection for M2. can you please share a bit more about that. I ordered my M2 on the 17th and it shipped today. Hopefully will get it by early next week.

[siniarch]

Here Krish,
check out this link. (hope you don't have to be a member to view it)

http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1741&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

the first page shows a picture. but it looks like further down the post some people are using a polarizer filter, breaking the glass of the polarizer and just using the rings. This way, you can attach the unit without the cumbersome way that "Steve Shovlar" was doing. (no offense steve.)
I get my adapter on friday, so if you have any questions, I may be able to actually see how it all works out for me.
Hope this helps.

[krish]

thanks, cool. ya the link worked fine I am now a registered memeber so I do have access. hey that's a cool idea. Hopefully i will get mine by early next weelk. We can share notes on how it works out,

keep in touch,

cheers,

-Kris

[deedive]

after using both, i would have to say they are equally good. but different.
Like nikon and canon. depends on what u like. There is no better.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Would you mind explaining the set up process? I've been searching to try to find info on that question. Is it simply a screw on attachment? Thanks. :beer:

Yeah...basically it just screws on. The first time you screw it on your cam you loosen a few screws that let you rotate the unit so it lines up with the screen inside. Takes a whopping 30 seconds. I was up and running within 2-3 min of getting the package. There's no motor or GG to move inside or anything like that. The Brevis is like the Mac of the computer world. :D "Plug and Play!" The batteries inside are also rechargeable.

[Mars United]

Yeah...basically it just screws on. The first time you screw it on your cam you loosen a few screws that let you rotate the unit so it lines up with the screen inside. Takes a whopping 30 seconds. I was up and running within 2-3 min of getting the package. There's no motor or GG to move inside or anything like that. The Brevis is like the Mac of the computer world. :D "Plug and Play!" The batteries inside are also rechargeable.
Thanks for the reply. That sounds great, I like the analogy. Hope to see some footage soon! Cheers. :beer:

[peter orland]

after using both, i would have to say they are equally good. but different.
Like nikon and canon. depends on what u like. There is no better.

I agree, both have pluses and minuses depending on what and how you're shooting.

[siniarch]

Peter,
What would you say the pluses and minuses are of each? and what type of shooting they would be better for?
Jester,
I'm assuming there is a motor and a ground glass. Just that you don't have to move them? and does the GG spin? or does it vibrate?
Thanks.

[Mars United]

Yes. Inquiring minds want to know. The only minus I've read is that the M2 is a bit of a pain to set up. Haven't heard of any other comparisons.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Peter,
What would you say the pluses and minuses are of each? and what type of shooting they would be better for?
Jester,
I'm assuming there is a motor and a ground glass. Just that you don't have to move them? and does the GG spin? or does it vibrate?
Thanks.

It vibrates up and down so you don't see the grain. You also don't need rails to use the Brevis, it's very light.

[Lenilenapi]

I'm with the rest of these guys - What are the minuses of the Brevis? the pros are obvious. So far I've never heard a minus from someone who has actually compared them face to face.
I own a Redrock and have a Brevis on order. I will let you guys know when I get mine. Shoulkd be in a wekk or so if they are on time.

[Mars United]

I'm with the rest of these guys - What are the minuses of the Brevis? the pros are obvious. So far I've never heard a minus from someone who has actually compared them face to face.
I own a Redrock and have a Brevis on order. I will let you guys know when I get mine. Shoulkd be in a wekk or so if they are on time.

That would be fantastic if you, or someone else, would write a review of the Brevis and M2. Obviously people are happy with both, and it would be great to hear that they compared favorably.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I will list any problems as I work with it. So far my only beef has been that the Brevis doesn't come with end caps. Easy fix,got some on ebay for cheap. A Nikon body cap for the lens mount and a 82mm filter cap to go over the stepup ring on the 72mm acromat. Like 3 bucks a piece.

[siniarch]

do you guys feel the vibration with the brevis. I was building a DoItYourself M2 and I guess the glass was slightly off center and I felt a slight vibration. once hooked up to the camera it didn't make a difference, but how does an up and down vibration feel. has anyone tried it with a long zoom lense?

[Life in a Box Films]

i have an M2 and am thinking about getting a brevis.

The M2 loses so much light, and it's pretty heavy and takes little while to setup. the major one for me is the loss of light. I would like to shoot with the M2 most of the time, even for run and gun, b-roll type stuff, but i can't because you need so much light.

I'd really like to see some full rez footage/grabs from the brevis!

if the images are comparable, then i would go brevis all the way, as long as it's just as reliable as the M2.

[Dennis Wood]

Now that we have lots of bandwidth, and an XH-A1 on the way, I'll be posting up some HD full rez stuff to look at. Should be about a week.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Just stumbled on this Brevis thread today for the first time. Trying to see if I can use any of the popular 35mm adapters currently on the market to achieve that cine-like, shallow depth-of-field, for my full-sized, 2/3" widescreen camera, a Sony DSR450. Would this work?

Sony DSR450 2/3" 16:9 camera + Century Optics 2/3" to C-mount adapter + C-mount to Nikon F-mount adapter + Nikon 60mm f/2.8 macro + 82-62mm step-down ring + Brevis 35mm adapter + Nikon 50mm f/1.2 (or any other Nikon still lens, of which I already own plenty).

Since no one apparently makes a B4-mount (Sony 2/3" bayonet) to Nikon F-mount adapter (Century only makes B4 to C-mount and B4 to 1/2" bayonet adapters for 2/3" cameras), this is the only way I could piece this together. Will the C-mount adapters cause vignetting? I know the back-focus distance would be too long to just mount a macro still lens on top of two other adapters, but is this a possible avenue worth further researching?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Some technical data I found:

B4 register: 48mm (air)
Nikon F register: 46.5mm

So, apparently, a mechanical B4 to Nikon F adapter isn't possible, leaving only 1.5mm with which to make the adapter. However, I have no idea what the focal plane distance from the flange is for either mount type. If they're diffrent, then a mechanical adapter may be possible. Of course, image size in another problem (35mm still vs. 2/3" 16:9 video CCD), and I have no idea how that works out exactly.

Here's the site where I found this information: lens mount site (http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/mounts-by-register.html)

[Justyn]

So where's the shoot out.? I think that the SGpro should be included as well.. The owner is very nice, responded to my emails and the footage looks great. I have a February purchase date so window shopping now would be cool...

RGD... ever get to it? Can we include most of them... aside from the obviously out of price range movietube..

[Eric Papa]

Just to clarify - the M2 is available now and ships within one week. There is no waiting list.

Cheers

Brian


This is just a bunch of BS! I ordered over a week or two ago, and just got confirmation that it will take another 2 -3 weeks until it ships. Again, BS

EP

[siniarch]

Hi Eric.
Not sure what's going on with your order. I ordered mine on the 15th of November, and it shipped on the 21st. That's 6 days after. I received it today at 1pm. by fedex.
I ordered the HD Indie bundel w/ the Nikon Lense adapter. I did send some e-mails to brian at Redrock because I was thinking of also getting the Canon adapter because my brother has a nice Canon Lense. Aparently they have the Canon FD mount in stock but the Canon EF (EOS) are about 2 weeks away. Maybe you got that lense mount.
I have to say, Brian has been very on top of my emails and I since I just got the adapter about 3hrs ago I just started playing with it. but So far it looks awesome. I can't say anything but good things about Redrock Micro. Hopefuly you will have a better experience with them soon Eric.
Thanks,
Luis

[Eric Papa]

Hello Luis,

Yes I ordered the EF adapter due to my extensive colletion of L lenses. Maybe that is why there is such a hold up. Hopefully it will be in my hands soon. Thanks for clarifying my confusion!! (my communications with redrock have been very mediocre)

EP

[bvalente]

Eric - drop me a line directly. I know we are now waiting on some specific parts (the eos lens mount comes to mind), but we'll do everthing we can to get it to you as soon as possible. bvalente@redrockmicro.com

Thanks

Brian

[Dennis Wood]

Rez, with regard to what you're suggesting, it would be worth exploring. However, I suspect it would be better to machine an interface between the 60mm macro lens, and the camera body rather than using all those adapters. I'm assuming you've already researched using the macro lens as a relay as I have no idea if that would work. The best thing to do, particularly if you own the macro lens, is to set it up on a test bench. An adapter can be represented by just a 24x36 frame in this setup, so all you need to do (sounds so easy doesn't it?) is get that frame focused on your cam's CCD's via the relay. You can email me if you need some help setting up an experiment or two.

[StormFactory]

So where's the shoot out.? I think that the SGpro should be included as well.. The owner is very nice, responded to my emails and the footage looks great. I have a February purchase date so window shopping now would be cool...

RGD... ever get to it? Can we include most of them... aside from the obviously out of price range movietube..I like the SGPro too. Like I said, I'm up for a shootout. I've already made my decision on what to buy but I think this shootout would really help the DVX100 and HVX200 community. I'm eager to put my Letus35 Flip Enhanced up agaisnt the SGPro, M2, and Brevis35. Let's stop talking about it and just do it. I'm available next weekend, December 2nd or 3rd. Who's with me?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Rez, with regard to what you're suggesting, it would be worth exploring. However, I suspect it would be better to machine an interface between the 60mm macro lens, and the camera body rather than using all those adapters. I'm assuming you've already researched using the macro lens as a relay as I have no idea if that would work. The best thing to do, particularly if you own the macro lens, is to set it up on a test bench. An adapter can be represented by just a 24x36 frame in this setup, so all you need to do (sounds so easy doesn't it?) is get that frame focused on your cam's CCD's via the relay. You can email me if you need some help setting up an experiment or two.Oh great! Thank you for your detailed reply! I do know that Nikon sells just the F-mount mechanical ring for custom applications. I really have no idea how to do what you're describing in a precise manner, but I do already own the AF version of the Nikkor 60mm macro lens. But because the registers are so close between the Nikon F-mount and the B4 mount, that would probably necessitate DELETING the factory B4 mount on the camera, then trying to engineer an F-mount directly on the body.

There just doesn't seem to be a way to (cheaply) mount some kind of high quality macro lens to a B4-mount camera. That $5K+ Fujinon 20mm B4 macro lens seems to be the only thing on the market.

[Justyn]

I'm with ya storm. Another interesting control would be to throw in the scneider 2x tele-converter. I'm really looking at that... I know it's not the same thing, but it would be possible to do some pretty cool things with DOF.

[rgdfilms]

Hey guys -

Exciting news coming within a day or two - I have a small but extensive test shootout that I have been performing with the Brevis and the M2 for the past few days. I tested light differences, overall ergonomics, DOF differences, everything you kats want to know about the differences between these two heavyweights- Post coming soon..

In the meantime, P+S, Movietube, Letus man... if you guys want to donate your adapters to my cause, I will glady do a shootout... hell... it's better than working..

: )

[Mars United]

Hurray! Can you leak any of the results?

[rgdfilms]

Let's just say they both have their fair share of pros and cons. It's all going to be about preference. Review coming within a few hours. Just wrapping up the compression on this video comparison I've been editing for all you guys.

[Matty_g]

It's very nice of you to take this on. can't wait to see the results. I'd love to see more adapters get worked into this too.

[siniarch]

yeah RGD. Thanks so much for your hard work. I keep playing with my equipment and my day job is suffering. hahahha. (so don't get fired on account of us.)

[rgdfilms]

http://gearbrain.blogspot.com/

Enjoy!

[Lenilenapi]

Thanks Richard,
Did you consider just putting these guys up on a resolution chart to compare them?

[rgdfilms]

If I had a proper chart I would have done it.. I didn't want to print one out.. Check the Unicorn scaled clip, that will give you a good idea of detail..

[StormFactory]

Hey guys -

Exciting news coming within a day or two - I have a small but extensive test shootout that I have been performing with the Brevis and the M2 for the past few days. I tested light differences, overall ergonomics, DOF differences, everything you kats want to know about the differences between these two heavyweights- Post coming soon..

In the meantime, P+S, Movietube, Letus man... if you guys want to donate your adapters to my cause, I will glady do a shootout... hell... it's better than working..

: )I figure it's pretty much down to preference at this point. We've all seen enough images from the more afforable SGPro, Letus, M2, Brevis, and the DIYs to see that they create great images, at least on the DVX100.

My curiosity is how this Letus will hold up to the HVX200 1080/24PA. How much grain will be seen and will you see it moving? Other than that I love what I'm seeing with it and the DVX. RDG, I'm in for lending my Letus to the cause. What area are you in?

[vuzz]

thanks for the shootout, in my eye the Brevis wins. I had the M2 but sold it because the motor was just way too loud, I could pick it up from 10 feet away, others didn't have this problem but I did, even after tweaking. I ordered the Brevis and I pray the motor is less noisy. anyone else with a brevis that can comment on the motor noise?

gota say the brevis is way bright!! compared to the M2. Anyway thanks for your hard work.

\v

[daveswan]

I've been kicking around the idea of getting a 35 mm adaptor, looks like the Brevis wins from your footage (For which, many thanks).
Will havt to keep an eye on exchange rates and bank balance in the new year!

Dave

[4mat]

I found the test very confusing ! One minute were seeing the M2 at f11 the next were seing the brevis at f1.8 on the same shot ?
Also did you not have any more ND filters, I don't see the point in seeing a really over exposed image as was the brevis most of the time. If the M2 is that dark then show it to be so but I would never shot with the brevis so hot.
Please can we have a properly exposed test.
You mention that the brevis was very noisy when tilted vertically could you record some sound evidence of this perhaps ?
Cheers

[Hans Moleman]

you might have a difficult time recording the sound from the brevis. as designed, it doesn't register in the cam's onboard mic, or even my external Okatava during shoots. The only way would be to basically touch the mic to the unit, then bump it up in post.

[siniarch]

Hi Rgdfilms,
Great test. I still think it would be better with a controlled environment. This way we can really judge from one to the other. I just got my M2 this past week, and would have loved to have this test prior to ordering it. (by the way I ordered on the 15th and received it at my door on the 24th) I didn't realize how much light it looses. Though I'm super busy right now, would love to sit down with you one day and take a look at both adapters and do some test. (also you may be able to help me set mine up a little better that what I have it setup so far. I will be doing a hard mount as soon as the step down ring and the male to male adapter shows up.) I think the best thing to do would be to be in a studio. (ie. my empty room or somthing like it.) have controlled lights, set up both cameras at the same distance. Get a proper focusing chart. (I wouldn't mind springing for one myself) and then rather than providing moving pictures, take stills and post those up side by side with the same f/stop setting. This would be a great time for anyone with the LETUS and the SGPro, to bring their cameras, mount them all together and do the test at the same time.
What do you think?
We could also weight them all.
And take to still photos of the set up so everyone can see.


Also. what does this mean?
"Since I decided to not attach the rail system to the M2, it only took a minute to screw it on the front of my HVX"?
did you have the M2 attached with a hard mount also. screwing the lense to the M2 etc....?
Why color correct the shots? (wouldn't it be better if they were not CC.?

[StormFactory]

Thanks for the shootout, RGD.

As for noise with the Letus, you barely know the thing is on. That's why there have been a couple times that I have forgetten to turn it one and only realized it once looking at the footage on a larger monitor.

siniarch - This Saturday?

[JasonFox]

Wow. Nice job. That Brevis sure is bright. Might be handy. I'm having issues with using my M2 indoors just because I don't have a good light kit. It rocks outside, but I could use more fixtures (which I can't afford) for indoor stuff.

Anyone know how the SGPro stacks up, light-wise? Their footage looks nice, too.

[siniarch]

I'm also looking into a replacement for the spinning Ground Glass of the M2 just to see if I can get something better and brighter. I'll keep you guys posted.

[Lenilenapi]

Just a note of caution about these tests.
The M2 takes alot of care to make sure the achromat to M2 distance is ideal for edge to edge sharpness.
Also both adapters I'm sure need to have the focus setting on the HVX absolutely exact for sharpness.
If anything was off that could bias the test.
I don't mean to disparage Richards test, just to maintain a healthy sketicism until more people have done this. Remember the first head to head tests of the HVX agains the HDV camera.

It certainly does seem to need less light that though and be a comparable image.

I am curious as to how it could need so much less light.
I mean what do we have here -

- A lens that has to focus at the same distance and make an image the same size in each adapter.
- A groundglass and a way of moving it
- an achromat
- a method of connecting the achromat to the groundgless.

Only the latter 3 could be different.

The mounting method is a matter of covenience but shouldn't affect performance unless alignment is wrong.

The achromats could be different, but they also should be interchangeable as they are focusing on the same size image the same distance away, so that would be an interesting test.

That leaves only the groundglass. Could that alone be responsible for the light level difference? (It could make a noise differences or introduce different problems at different shutter speeds.)

The Brevis I believe has different groundglass options which are supposd to be easy to switch) I wonder if one is better for low light but has any disadvantages - hence the other choices and the point about the Brevis having a problem in bright daylight using HVX ND.
Could that problem affect an overxposed part of an image shot in low light?

There's more to learn with careful testing.

(I hope to have a Brevis soon to do my own comparisons. Its a week overdue at the moment and I'm not get any response from Dennis.)

[Barry_Green]

The differences in light level should only boil down to two things, really:
1) the amount of light that gets passed through the ground glass
2) the zoom setting you're required to use to get proper framing

If one adapter requires you to zoom in to Z80 or so to get proper framing, and another can get proper framing at Z40, then that right there would result in about 1.5 stops of better light performance for the second adapter. Keep in mind that the further you zoom in, the smaller the maximum-open iris you can maintain; at Z40 you can probably hold f/1.6 but at Z80 you're probably more like f/2.8. That's a 2.5 stop difference.

Second, it's up to the transmissive properties of the ground glass. The more transparent the ground glass is, the softer the image is going to be, but brighter too. And Dennis' observation about halos and smearing will come into play. The denser the ground glass the sharper the image will likely be, but then again, it'll be darker and grainier. Interchangeable ground glasses, such as the Brevis approach, sound quite interesting because it'd let you fine-tune your adapter to meet the specific needs of the shot.

[Dennis Wood]

Len, the problem with using a camera's ND filter is that it reduces exposure after the GG which hides the fact that the gg is actually overexposed. If one thinks of the diffuser as film, it becomes more clear that you must avoid overexposing it. If you want max DOF, that means the 35mm lense should be close to wide open...and you should control exposure then with an ND filter over the 35mm lens in bright conditions, just as you would as ND on your video camera to avoid high f stops and the aperture blade diffraction that results.

The second and third diffuser options will lose a bit more light, meaning another .5 stops or so each. Regardless, all three are very efficient with respect to light and manage the image much differently than a spinning element system.

Barry, good point on the zoom-in. It's never really discussed.

[Christopher Barry]

My Brevis setup works out to be:
Zoom 75
Manual Focus 10

I found it interesting to observe Richard's vignette test. M2 had what I see as a light fall off to the edge, which would then raise the question: How far do you zoom in for optimal M2? The following vignette test, "input: 9, input tolerance: 29", pronounced what I just raised in respect of light fall off edge to edge on the M2.

I am not looking to start a war or debate, just my observations. I would like to learn more about what I am seeing/observing.

[Shaw]

Interesting. I'd love to see some comparisons of all the 35mm adapters out there right now. That would include shooting resolution charts, macbeth color chip charts, exposure tests, contrast comparisons, etc.

EDIT: The brevis website seems to be down?

Also, it seems like these adapters have a habit of causing highlights to blow out much faster than normal? Is this just me? It could very well be due to the fact that highlights are blooming and losing detail I suppose.

[peter orland]

It's very hard to tell anything from this test but judging only on the clip...

It appears that the Brevis seems to be handling the contrast differently than the M2, particularly in the low mids to shadows/underexposed areas of the picture. If you look at this (assumed uncorrected) shot side by side, the pasta packet in both shots is very similar (other than the focus/dof difference), and to a lessor extent the green/red container to the right. If you then look to any of the shadow areas, not the hard black but the darker shadows, the Brevis is exposing them brighter and allowing more detail to be captured than the M2. This wouldn't be a problem (maybe at times even an advantage) for when you are shooting WYSIWYG unlit scenes, but for any shooting that you needed/wanted to control the lighting/contrast it would be awful. I believe this is why a test of this nature will show the Brevis to "appear" to be doing a better job as it is capturing into the shadows and showing some detail, but I certainly wouldn't want that kind of "assistance" on anything that was lit well. The Brevis is also doing something similar with the highlights which is why it needs stopping down in relation to the M2, and I'm only guessing, in relation to what the correct light reading/output really is, kind of like what gain does without the noise. Also, to my eye the pasta packet is exposed very similar in both clips, and this is only 1 stop difference, not 2.5, for what it matters.

Taking into account the quicker setup time, lighter weight, an apparent built in light enhancement feature, less likely to draw attention to it self, as the author of this test claimed, the Brevis would suit the run and gun/doco style much more than the M2. For controlled "cinematic style" lighting and shooting, with better handling of the contrast/dynamic range, and greater DOF at the same F stop I would prefer the M2.

Personally I think more testing is needed before any factual opinions can be reached, because as someone who has shot with both these (and the P&S) adapters, once set up right, they all take good pictures.

Pete

[deedive]

which screen did u use in the brevis, which with the m2?

[cbdv]

Thanks for the effort Richard, while skepticism is ever present, you invested a lot of time and effort to, I am sure do your best. Different product solutions for different applications

[rgdfilms]

Thanks man.. I tried to make it clear that this wasn't the test to end all tests - If I had more time and didn't have a job, I would have been a little more controlled in my setups.

[kstewart]

Thanks for this great shootout. I noticed 2 things :

1. At the beginning the Brevis seemed to crop a little bit the picture (28mm is wider for the Redrock). But with the picture with the frame on the wall the difference is less apparent. Have you changed the camera's zoom ?

2. Outside even with the ND filters the Brevis pictures are over-exposed, the highlights are burnt compared to the Redrock where latitude seems better. Do you think it's possible to get a better latitude with the Brevis ?

Thank you very much for this review, I was waiting for something like this for so long !

[rgdfilms]

Hey kstewart, to answer,

For those beginning shots with the guy wearing the Nike shirt (that's dvxuser AbstractTheory.. btw) I was zoomed in a little further on the HVX than with the M2, that was a mistake I noticed later.. the other shots after that collection are all zoomed the same. Those outside blown out shots were there because I was trying to show brightness levels and wasn't using a real monitor outside. I wanted to keep the outside stuff all at f/4. I was trying to show that with the Brevis, even with an extra ND filter, it still wasn't darker than the M2. You can definitely get better latitude with the Brevis like the M2. One thing I wasn't doing in the beginning was stopping down the HVX to f/4-5.6. The HVX stayed wide open.. I've since corrected this issue and notice better latitude and control. So now when I shoot it is a combo of choosing my f stop on my Nikkor, usually between f/2-4, then I throw on one or two ND filters, then I adjust my HVX between f/4 and f/5.6. Similar to the M2, although with the M2, I found that I never bothered or needed extra ND filters on the front of my 35 lenses.

[kstewart]

Thank you Richard, ewplaning the way you proceed is very helpful ! Doing this kind of reviews requires a lot of time and money (!), it would be great if Wayne Kinney could send you a SGPro examplar to add it, as his adpater seems very interesting too !

Anyway, thanks again for your efforts !

Kristin

[Noel Evans]

Well done RGD someone mentioned already just to take the time and effort to do this is a great gesture for the community. I thought the shots gave a pretty fair indication of what was going on. I agree with you the DOF seems more shallow on the M2.

[Kholi]

It'd probably be cool to have both adapters. For lowlight situations and well lit situations. That way you'd get the best image from both worlds at the right times.

Not like you'd have to buy more lenses, either.

[deedive]

ok, one more time.
which screen did u use in the brevis, which with the m2?
Where u using the old brevis or the new one. which difuser.
there are 2 screens that come with the m2. One is for low light. which did u use?

[rgdfilms]

I used the standard diffuser that shipped with Brevis, the one made for low light.. The m2 has the newest Cinescreen inside of it.. Rotation vs. Vibration

[deedive]

Oh ok kool
If I understand correctly, the older screen, not the cinescreen is made for low light.
BTW psycho intro is cool:) and thanks for all the hard work

[Noah]

It would be best to see the brevis standard diffuser against the m2 original screen and also the brevis optional diffusers against the m2 cinescreen.

[samchasedp]

Thanks so much RGD for doing that test. It was the first I was able to find and I've been waiting with baited breath to see them side by side. I'm off to Pakistan in a month to shoot a feature on the HVX w/ 35 PL adapter (and Zeiss Super Speeds), 35mm film, consumer Mini DV and Super 8 film...whew, talk bout mixed (up) media and it's all going to be blown up to 35mm print. One thing that has rarely been mentioned in this forum is the vignetting issue with the M2. Light sensitivity aside (I'll have a full lighting crew so not too worried) I think there are only two real issues here: Visible Grain and Vignetting. The M2 has terrible vignetting which can be seen on every clip on their website whereas the Brevis seems to have none. The drawback for the Brevis is that it seems to show grain much faster which will be a major problem for blowup or HD projection. Which of the 2 Brevis GG's have you found to show less grain in high light situations?

[TimurCivan]

Hey Dennis, im going to do a side by side with the Brevis, the New SGpro, the Go35 and the M2.

Aram Bauman has the Brevis, Deedive has teh M2, i have the Sgpro and The Go35. This should be interesting.

[Barry_Green]

When & where? If you want to throw a Letus 35FE in the mix, let me know...

[TimurCivan]

NY most likely. next time yous guys is up in NY, drop me a line. i am flexible. the real bitch is getting everyone using the same lens.

i'll write up a whole article and everything...

[Dennis Wood]

I'm hoping Aram will have the rev2 Brevis for that test? I know he's sending the beta in for an upgrade sometime soon...

[huge1]

This lens has manual controls but says auto…is it a workable lens for the brevis? I went through your forum and could not find anything about these particular lens’


Nikon Nikkor-H Auto 1:2 f=50mm Nippon Kogaku Japan Lens


anyone know the answer? thanks!

[DC]

This lens has manual controls but says auto…is it a workable lens for the brevis? I went through your forum and could not find anything about these particular lens’


Nikon Nikkor-H Auto 1:2 f=50mm Nippon Kogaku Japan Lens


anyone know the answer? thanks!

http://www.destoutz.ch/lens_50mm_f2_703010.html

Should be fine on a Brevis with a Nikon mount.

[bvalente]

Huge1

That lens will work great on all adapters. I think the "auto" refers to the AIS functions introduced way back when - the idea that the camera could communicate with the lens to know it's f-stop, etc.

"Auto" nowadays of course means much different things :)

Brian

[drdimento]

Yeah...basically it just screws on. - - The Brevis is like the Mac of the computer world.

Well that did it for us - - since mac computers nearly shut our operation down before we got smart and switched to PC's and Avid we certainly don't want to move back a step . . so, we'll go Letus or Red Rock. Thanks for that insight Jester!

Is it not true that the Brevis unit vibrates? I've heard that the vibration can affect some of the harmonics in picture. Comments?

[Lenilenapi]

The Brevis and the Letus both vibrate and I have never heard of nor seen any "harmonic problems" or any other artifacts from the vibration. Actually I'm not sure what that means. The spinning adapters also have motors so they vibrate as well. It's a new one for me - where did you hear that?

Lenny Levy

[Dennis Wood]

The Brevis imaging elements oscillate in a very, very tightly controlled motion. They are oriented to an accuracy of .001" in the Z axis and do not have any harmonic issues with cameras. If high shutter is used on an improperly tuned system, there can be issues...easily alleviated by adjusting oscillation, and/or using lower shutter. The system is well known for rapid setup, and ease of use.

[bvalente]

I've never heard of harmonic issues with any adapter, but maybe it's different terminology :) . What you'll see with a rotating adapter is ability to shoot at higher shutter speeds, and to be able to stop down on your 35mm lens farther before you see any kind of screen artifacts.

Brian

[Lenilenapi]

Brian's right about the main design difference between spinning and oscillating or vibrating adapters. The spinners have the advantages he mentioned, but tend to be a bit larger and heavier so for example the non flip Brevis is easier hand held, that's the trade off.

Aside from those basic design issues, the differences come down to individual build & design issues and the nature of the diffusing screens in each. Have never heard of artifacting on any of them except for the static grain (& dirt or dust on the vibrators) you need to watch for. I think that's what Brian means by artifacting.

- Lenny

[DavidChia]

there won't be much weight difference when you mount the Brevis on rod too. Because in order to have good images, You need to use a mattebox with N.D filters, and also a follow focus unit , and an external monitor for framing and focusing because the small lcd on the camera is not going to give you critical focus especially on a HD camera. So that sums up that you also need rods when you gun and go with the Brevis.

A really interesting adapter combo is a flip unit from the Cinevate to fit in to one of these rotating adapters. That way, you get flipped image and a adapter that can handle high shutter speed with an afforable price. The other is the P+S that offers that , but you pay like so many times more.

[JasonFox]

David -- you assume someone is shooting HD with their Brevis and therefore needs the external LCD to focus properly. :) Some of us are still toting around a DVX. I find running-and-gunning with the Brevis a fairly easy thing. I just use the 72mm NDs I already had from my non-adapter days and stick it all on a DV MultiRig. And if I use my wide angle glass (which I tend to prefer), focusing is even easier. Granted, when I get that flip unit it'll be back to the rails and my regular matte box.

[Dennis Wood]

The Year Zero documentary (http://www.cinevate.com/website/index.php/demo/)was shot in Cambodia on an HVX using the Brevis. They shot the majority of the piece off rails, and found it most convenient to just screw it on and shoot. Patrick at stillmotion.ca uses several Brevis units on their XH-A1 collection for their wedding shoots. They find the same thing...screw it on, shoot, then remove for steadicam work. They do this in seconds. Everyone has their preferred style, and all we do is make sure there's a product option from Cinevate to take care of them. This philosophy extends to our CINEFUSE interchangeable imaging elements, rails systems, and the upcoming cinema tools.

With the Brevis and flip module, the system will be happiest on rails, but with small cams like the HV20, it will be quite possible to just leave the little cam hanging off our quick release at the back, and rails mount the Brevis rig!

[reem12]

the issues of light loss and the problems of getting the m2 set up properly, made my change to the letus extreme that much easier.I'm glad to see people like dennis and the letus company answer the cries of the poor indi filmakers at so an affordable price even though letus is still probably the cheapest of the adapters offering the flip capabilties at the moment.

[bvalente]

David -- you assume someone is shooting HD with their Brevis and therefore needs the external LCD to focus properly. :) Some of us are still toting around a DVX. I find running-and-gunning with the Brevis a fairly easy thing. I just use the 72mm NDs I already had from my non-adapter days and stick it all on a DV MultiRig. And if I use my wide angle glass (which I tend to prefer), focusing is even easier. Granted, when I get that flip unit it'll be back to the rails and my regular matte box.

...or the microX, which is the previously announced Redrock flip module.

http://www.freshdv.com/podpress_trac/web/887/0/REDROCK.mov

Brian