Canon or Sony?

[jcapurro]

Any thoughts on the A1 vs. V1u? With only $300 separating them does the 24p of the Sony push it's nose ahead? How about Picture quality? If it were your money, What do you guys think?

Cheers,
Jeremy

[smithy]

Canon-1/3 CCD's

Sony - 1/4 CCD's

Pretty much helps you decide which way to go.

See this

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HVR-V1U-Sony-HDR-FX7-HVR-Z1U-Canon-XH-A1-JVC-GY-HD110U-Panasonic-AG-HVX200-Compared.htm

[rawfa]

Actualy it's
Canon - 1/3 CCD
Sony - 1/4 CMOS

You should read this article:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Unleashes-the-24p-HVR-V1U---and-a-Glimpse-at-the-Future-of-Image-Control.htm

Both look wonderful on the paper, but I'd wait until some decent footage hits the forums.

[Virtual-one]

sony is the most noise free camera

[Barry_Green]

sony is the most noise free camera
We should wait until we've actually seen footage, especially comparison footage, to make that determination. But if Mikko's footage is in any way accurate this would be a fair statement.

Where did we see it's a $300 difference? The V1U is $4800, the XHA1 is $3999.

[jcapurro]

Where did we see it's a $300 difference? The V1U is $4800, the XHA1 is $3999.

B&H has the V1U listed at $4290.

[jcapurro]

Thanks for the links guys! Very informative. OK so how about workflow? I seem to recall seeing somewhere that Canon's 24f can't be imported directly into Final Cut Pro... Is this the case? How about Sony's progressive 24p? This could be the deal maker for me.

Cheers,
Jeremy

[Fugitive]

Sony's progressive footage can be imported natively into any NLE because it is broken down into an interlaced image for editing and reconverted into progressive on output again. Its non-destructive by the way.

[Zim]

the new FCP they say will edit 24f

[Tim Le]

Ahh, so it looks like the street price for the V1U is set: $4300. Also, a dealer on DVInfo said the A1 will go for $3999 MAP. So there you have it, the race is on.

I'm going to wait for footage and reviews too but it's going to be a tough call for me. CCD versus CMOS? The A1 has a wider lens but V1U is 1 lb lighter and a little smaller. 24F versus 24P on 60i? Image tweaks? A1 will have a lot but V1U may have even more due to CMOS and LUTs...who knows. The deciding factor will probably be ergonomics and how the Zoom/Focus/Iris feel.

Hmmmm, can't decide. I'll probably go to DV Expo West in November to check 'em both out.

[rawfa]

I wonder how much will the sony be in europe....

[Zim]

Ahh, so it looks like the street price for the V1U is set: $4300. Also, a dealer on DVInfo said the A1 will go for $3999 MAP. So there you have it, the race is on.

I'm going to wait for footage and reviews too but it's going to be a tough call for me. CCD versus CMOS? The A1 has a wider lens but V1U is 1 lb lighter and a little smaller. 24F versus 24P on 60i? Image tweaks? A1 will have a lot but V1U may have even more due to CMOS and LUTs...who knows. The deciding factor will probably be ergonomics and how the Zoom/Focus/Iris feel.

Hmmmm, can't decide. I'll probably go to DV Expo West in November to check 'em both out.


your not the only one!!!

I also like the size of the V1.

[Bogdan]

...

I'm going to wait for footage and reviews too but it's going to be a tough call for me. CCD versus CMOS? The A1 has a wider lens but V1U is 1 lb lighter and a little smaller. 24F versus 24P on 60i? Image tweaks? A1 will have a lot but V1U may have even more due to CMOS and LUTs...who knows

...

For me deciding factor was the resolution, sensors size and proven technology that provides full HDV2 quality. I work both with i and p (or F). That's why I have pre-ordered Canon XH-A1. In progressive mode both cameras will produce similar results making the choice very subjective, but I think Canon will have slight edge.

Sensor size is important for selective focus. 35mm adapter will not be handy always.

I don't like marketing tricks and image comparisons on Sony's website which are rather inconsistent with what we have already seen and tested many times. We should take it lightly.

CMOS vs CCD does not have significant influence on final image quality. DSLR cameras are good example of that. Canon's DSLRs have the lead, but it's not because of CMOS technology.

Mikko's V1 footage is nice, but does not show anything better than existing products.

Good thing is there are more and more choices coming. People who favor Sony and/or got used to Z1 or FX1 will most likely choose V1. V1 is definitely step in the right direction. Cano-folks like me, will prefer A1 or G1.

Let's be happy and make good movies. Peace :)

[Tim Le]

I'm not really biased towards any brand. I own several Sony MiniDV camcorders but I have all Canon still photography equipment. I think Canon makes great stuff and from an innovation and technology standpoint, it's a great company. Last year alone they were issued over 1,800 U.S. patents, which ranks them #2 right behind IBM.

Honestly, I think the picture quality of both these cameras will probably be very similar. So for me it will come down to operational aspects like lens range and size and weight. The A1 weighs in at about 5 lbs fully loaded which is really porky for a handheld camera. But it makes up for that with a nice wide zoom range. The 37.4mm wide end on the V1 is kind of bugging me. But the V1 has that slick integration with the HDD, is slimmer and trimmer and has a larger and probably better transflective LCD monitor.

[Hobbes00]

Whats the difference between both their LCD monitor?

[rawfa]

Whats the difference between both their LCD monitor?

Canon's LCD looks more like the one on the FX1/Z1 (which is amazing). Sony made the mistake of droping the amazing idea they had when they built the Fx1/Z1 lcd's.

[Kholi]

I'm waiting to see footage from both cameras, but it's going to be a tough decision. Especially waiting out the release of the V1u seeing as how the Canon's are on the horizon.

Right now, though, the Sony sounds nice just because of the HDMI out. I'm guesstimaing that building a Cube PC based around BlackMagic's Intensity Card (HDMI capture) would work just fine for field capture.

Then again if the A1 is supposed to be a Mini H1 minus SDi capabilities... Quality takes the cake.

=( Why does it have to be so hard?

[ShannonRawls]

Canon's LCD looks more like the one on the FX1/Z1 (which is amazing). NO WAY!
The LCD on the Sony Z1U beats the crap out of the viewfinder the XL-H1 comes with. Technically I don't know, but VISUALLY...the Sony LCD looks about "twice" as better then the Canon version. I envy the viewfinder on the Sony. it's so good, you really don't need a Marshall monitor with that camera. However, the XL-H1 almost requires one!

[Zim]

The canon A1 or the Sony V1. Both have good features. So it looks like the only way to decide is to wait to see what people say about them after they come out.

[rawfa]

NO WAY!
The LCD on the Sony Z1U beats the crap out of the viewfinder the XL-H1 comes with. Technically I don't know, but VISUALLY...the Sony LCD looks about "twice" as better then the Canon version. I envy the viewfinder on the Sony. it's so good, you really don't need a Marshall monitor with that camera. However, the XL-H1 almost requires one!

Sorry, Shannon. I don't think I expressed my self right. What you just said is what I mean. The LCD on the Z1/Fx1 is simply amazing...but they are not using the same one on the V1.

[ShannonRawls]

Gotcha!!!

[donkathon]

Any thoughts on the A1 vs. V1u? With only $300 separating them does the 24p of the Sony push it's nose ahead? How about Picture quality? If it were your money, What do you guys think?

Cheers,
Jeremy

Its probably already been said, but the Canon has a bigger CCD, and... Sony likes to try to be superior, and make themselves superior. Canon is a lot more open and friendly.

[Elton]

What I want to see is dynamic range examples from the V1U that show a big improvement over other 1/3" CCD HD cameras. I'd also like to see comparisons of 1/4" DOF and 1/3" DOF at equivalent apertures and focal lengths. Lastly, I'd like to see just how well the V1U performs in lowlight--then we'll have a good idea of how this camera stacks up.

Personally, it's bothersome to me that they shrunk the sensor size.

[Fugitive]

Yeah, and thats what makes deciding so difficult. Its something like this:

A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation

V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability


Come to think of it, its like comparing apples to oranges. Each has a different feature set. Its a shame you have to choose between those rather than combine them.

[Fugitive]

Sony likes to try to be superior, and make themselves superior. Canon is a lot more open and friendly.

What does that have to do with anything? We were talking about cameras, not companies...

[meta4]

Yeah, and thats what makes deciding so difficult. Its something like this:

A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation

V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability


Come to think of it, its like comparing apples to oranges. Each has a different feature set. Its a shame you have to choose between those rather than combine them.

How do we know the Sony has better latitude? Are we just going by the fact that CMOS is better or sony's marketing?

The low light is also in question, with smaller imagers, the low light could be worse, regardless of sony's lowlight strength in the past.

We'll just have to wait and see.

On another note, I'm gonna go with the Canon because Canon's president is waaay cuter than Sony's president! If you think about it long enough...it makes sense.

[ShannonRawls]

A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation

V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability

Both of these are partly incorrect. Speculation is what causes arguments, gets people banned and how guys lose potential good friends on the internet.

The honest truth is:

A1 = Larger Sensor size
V1 = HDMI

That's ALL we know and can compare as of today.

[jcapurro]

A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation

V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability


Is the Sony not stabilized, or just not optically? I thought Sony was all about 'SteadyShot' as every cam I've ever seen by them has it so I just assumed...

Also another question about capture. If I shot with 24f on a Canon (Not the A1 obviously but hypothetically speaking) would I be able to use FCP if I used a card like Black Magic to capture the footage? I really don't want to have to convert the footage using another software before editing and this is a BIG downside for me on the Canon front. And 'Wait for the next Final Cut version' is not really a valid argument for me since it has not been either announced (so it could be a long time) or feature previewed (Who knows, it may not even support 24f).

Grrr. Decisions Decisions.

[ShannonRawls]

Yes,
With a Blackmagic or Aja card you can shoot with ANY HD camera on the planet and be OK. And with Apple Computers, you can pick whatever Codec you want. The RGB/Component signal is HD and available on all HD cameras and Apple is great for allowing all it's installed codecs to be used during analog/digital capture. (unlike PC)

P.S.
I think you missed the memo. Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 was realease 72 hours ago. it supports ALL modes of the Canon, even 24f natively.

[rawfa]

Yeah, and thats what makes deciding so difficult. Its something like this:

A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation

V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability


Come to think of it, its like comparing apples to oranges. Each has a different feature set. Its a shame you have to choose between those rather than combine them.


Actualy, sony representatives said on the V1's "premiere" that it doesn't handle low light "that well". They said the FX1/Z1 are much better in low light. Aparently, the V1 is supposed to have wider dynamic range and a very good perfomance on properly lit situations. Actualy you can see on the parachuting clip when the parachuter is against the sky you can still see detail (and it didn't look over exposed and blown). The truth is that we can talk all we want but only when the V1 is release we'll find out more about it's true capacity with REAL tests. As for the new canons, I guess we can all expect the same results as the H1, since it uses the same sensor (with more image control).

[Fugitive]

Yikes, I am under-fire!


Both of these are partly incorrect. Speculation is what causes arguments, gets people banned and how guys lose potential good friends on the internet.

The honest truth is:

A1 = Larger Sensor size
V1 = HDMI

That's ALL we know and can compare as of today.

I was wrong to speculate about the V1, but we already know that the A1 uses the XL-H1 chip, so how could I be wrong about the extra-resolution? Besides, wasnt it a fact that the A1 would use Optical Image Stabilization?


Oh, BTW Shanon, Looksee what I found in the Canon forum:



*sigh*. (slaming my beer down) *smile*

C'mon meta my man! You say that like I am the only one who is making an 'unproven' statement. Neither is it proven that IT IS actually 540.

I mean gee wiz...there's no PROOF that the Earths core is hot. There's no PROOF that Prot really isn't from the planet K-Pax. There's no PROOF that ones mother is really their mother (I doubt most people have taken a DNA test).

Instead...........We just...uhhhh, kinda beleive it when we're told. Especially if enough people tells us.


I was following your guidelines in speculating? hmm... :)

@Jcapurro: The sony camera uses digital anti-shke method whereby it shoots a sligthly larger image, and crops out the shake. Works fine. OIS is better though.

[Fugitive]

On another note, I'm gonna go with the Canon because Canon's president is waaay cuter than Sony's president! If you think about it long enough...it makes sense.

Your funny. Not the jolly-good-laughs kinda funny. The "hmmm...that tastes funny" kinda funny. 8-0

[jcapurro]

Yes,
With a Blackmagic or Aja card you can shoot with ANY HD camera on the planet and be OK. And with Apple Computers, you can pick whatever Codec you want. The RGB/Component signal is HD and available on all HD cameras and Apple is great for allowing all it's installed codecs to be used during analog/digital capture. (unlike PC)

P.S.
I think you missed the memo. Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 was realease 72 hours ago. it supports ALL modes of the Canon, even 24f natively.

Awesome thanks for the info! So basically, if I get the sony and I shoot tethered using that cool (and cheap!!!) black magic HDMI card I can record off the sony in 4:2:2 uncompressed direct to the hard disk array in my computer and tell the mac it's whatever format I choose? Cool!

And thanks for the update on FCP also, I had in fact missed the memo and it didn't come up in Software Update, so it's getting DL'ed from apple.com as I type this.

You guys were supposed to make this decision easier! Damn. :)

[Tim Le]

The sony camera uses digital anti-shke method whereby it shoots a sligthly larger image, and crops out the shake. Works fine. OIS is better though.

Do you know this for sure? I can't find anything directly from Sony saying either way what it is. But several online articles refer to the HVR-V1U's image stabilizer as "Super Steadyshot optical image stabilizer."

The Canon A1/G1 definitely has an optical image stabilizer.

[ShannonRawls]

I was following your guidelines in speculating? hmm... :) ha good one Fugitive....only difference is, I own/operate/use the cameras I speculate on. You'll never see me tell people what's "best" on something that's not available yet. It leaves you open for questioning like Tim Le is doing above.....with the possibility of being flat out wrong. LOL

but i feel you.

[Kholi]

Yes,
With a Blackmagic or Aja card you can shoot with ANY HD camera on the planet and be OK. And with Apple Computers, you can pick whatever Codec you want. The RGB/Component signal is HD and available on all HD cameras and Apple is great for allowing all it's installed codecs to be used during analog/digital capture. (unlike PC)

P.S.
I think you missed the memo. Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 was realease 72 hours ago. it supports ALL modes of the Canon, even 24f natively.

Yeah... V1u has both options. So those who want to get a Component AJA card can... those who want to spend a whopping 250.00 on an HDMI capture card by Blackmagic can. Personally, Sony's HDMI out option was already interesting enough... then Blackmagic announces the perfect card for me at a 250.00 dollar amount.

It's got me considering, that's for damned sure.

[Kholi]

Let me say though... after reviewing HV10 footage... if this is the quality I can expect from an A1....

I might be saving myself 300.00 on a camera purchase. I'm ready to go out to Best Buy and pick up my A1 deck right now, to be honest.

[Fugitive]

Shanon you are absolutely right. I dont own the cameras to speculate on, but heck, these cameras arent out yet so ANY discussion on them is going to involve speculation. Cant really be helped. If its only the facts, then what is there to discuss? Besides, I am not the only person who has to eat his words, if need may be. See Chris Hurd:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-44866.html



Do you know this for sure? I can't find anything directly from Sony saying either way what it is. But several online articles refer to the HVR-V1U's image stabilizer as "Super Steadyshot optical image stabilizer."

The Canon A1/G1 definitely has an optical image stabilizer.



Tim, Super SteadyShot can be Optical Image Stablization, or electronic. With the Sony marketing strategy, its hard to tell. But "observing" the circumstances, I was ahem...speculating..that it would have electronic IS. Frankly, I think if the V1 had OIS Sony would be making a BIG deal out if it, like Canon does. At the moment, I dont see that happening. So i'll keep my reservations.

If it "does" turn out to have OIS, groovy for the consumers!

[Tim Le]

Tim, Super SteadyShot can be Optical Image Stablization, or electronic. With the Sony marketing strategy, its hard to tell. But "observing" the circumstances, I was ahem...speculating..that it would have electronic IS. Frankly, I think if the V1 had OIS Sony would be making a BIG deal out if it, like Canon does. At the moment, I dont see that happening. So i'll keep my reservations.
True, I have noticed over the years the lower-end Sony camcorders have started to use an EIS version of Steadyshot. And the DVInfo link you gave was for the lower end A1/HC1/HC3 cameras.

But since the Z1U definitely uses an optical image stabilization (see this PDF (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV/images/Print_SONY50613_HVRZ1U.pdf)) I would give the benefit of the doubt that a high-end camera such as the V1U would use the same system. I do see your point about Sony marketing making a big deal of this if it were true, but then again, for some reason complete information on this cameras is still sparse. For example, on the V1U mini-site, the "Functions" and "Design" pages still aren't working.

So since we don't know for sure yet what it is, I'm just trying to limit misinformation from statements that appear to be facts when they are not or at least ask for confirmation.

[Barry_Green]

I'm as interested in the V1 as the rest of you, but frankly I wouldn't trust Sony's marketing as far as I could throw 'em. They slapped a CineAlta badge on the XDCAM-HD things. They call it 24P when in fact it's interlaced. They call it "variable frame rate" when in fact it drops to half resolution at any frame rate above 30fps, because it's interlaced. Chris Hurd was relying on the tradition of them calling electronic stabilization "SteadyShot" and optical stabilization "Super SteadyShot", so when the A1 had "Super SteadyShot" that's leading us to believe it's optical stabilization, but it isn't. Marketing changed the "rules", they now have an electronic EIS stabilization system but they call it by the same name that they always used to reserve for optical OIS.

So you can't make any assumptions whatsoever anymore. I will not assume that the V1 has optical stabilization until it's somewhere documented and proven. Nowhere in their marketing materials, data sheets, or anywhere else do they mention anything about optical image stabilization. The A1U is marketed in their same professional line and it has electronic stabilization, so there is precedent. I would tend to think it's electronic until proven otherwise.

All over their marketing they talk about 1920x1080x60P @ 4:2:2 for the V1, even though there's no way to get access to any type of 60p (read the fine print and you'll see that the best you can get out of it is an interpolated 1440x1080x60ix4:2:0). Now they're out there saying that the only real difference between CineFrame 24 and true 24p is that you can use lower shutter speeds (1/48 and 1/24, whereas CF24 was restricted to 1/60). Which has my red alert sirens going off -- are they going to do it again? Is the V1 really an interlaced product, and moreso, is it the horrible CineFrame 24 repackaged and just "called" 24p? That interview with Mr. Ott certainly did a lot to take away the "warm & fuzzy" feeling I was starting to get from Sony again. Fortunately in other places they do directly contradict this notion by saying flat-out "for the first time, Sony has introduced progressive scan acquisition" so the camera is probably fine, and the interview just shows that Mr. Ott doesn't have a clue as to the difference between CF24 and 24P. But you can bet I'm gonna test it to see that it does truly deliver proper 24fps motion rendition before I believe it, based on what they've said!

[Tim Le]

So you can't make any assumptions whatsoever anymore. I will not assume that the V1 has optical stabilization until it's somewhere documented and proven. Nowhere in their marketing materials, data sheets, or anywhere else do they mention anything about optical image stabilization. The A1U is marketed in their same professional line and it has electronic stabilization, so there is precedent. I would tend to think it's electronic until proven otherwise.

Again, like I said, I have not found anything directly from Sony saying explicitly what type of SteadyShot is in the HVR-V1U. But I don't see why it is necessary to create doubt about what type of SteadyShot it is when the following circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly shows that it is most likely the same optical SteadyShot system as in the other high-end HDV camcorders:

- The HVR-Z1U uses an optical SteadyShot (source: HVR-Z1U Brochure (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV/images/Print_SONY50613_HVRZ1U.pdf))
- The HDR-FX1 uses an optical SteadyShot (source: HDR-FX1 Brochure (http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/HDRFX1_final.pdf))
- The HDR-FX7 uses an optical SteadyShot (source: HDR-FX7 Press Release (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/digital_imaging/camcorders/high_definition/release/24467.html))

Since the HVR-V1U is the professional version of the HDR-FX7, it would seem logical and highly likely that it would have the same optical SteadyShot.

[Barry_Green]

Aha! Yes it does say optical in the FX7. I was searching V1U stuff and couldn't find any reference to optical (or electronic for that matter). But in the FX7 press release they did say optical, which leaves no doubt that the V1U would also be optical.

[Kholi]

That's what I thought. I'm relatively new to the camera stuff, but going through articles and aged reviews on SOny products they've seemed rather untrustworthy.

The HDMI thing really had me thinking up until I saw HV10 footage. Canon's camera's are really clean and I know I can trust their marketing, even if they're fixing prices across the board.Grr...

[Fugitive]

Aha! Yes it does say optical in the FX7. I was searching V1U stuff and couldn't find any reference to optical (or electronic for that matter). But in the FX7 press release they did say optical, which leaves no doubt that the V1U would also be optical.

Ditto.

[Zim]

So just by what we know now. If you had to pick from the Canon A1 or the Sony V1 to make a movie which one would you use?

I know it is hard to say , but from the specs? Lens etc.

[Kholi]

I'm leaning toward the A1, to be honest. And that's after seeing footage from the H1 and the HV10.

300 dollars less, even with the V1u Street price.

Wider lens already. I'm sure you'll soon be able to get a component out cable for it that goes to HDMI, so I could still use the Intensity capture card.

I'm looking forward to next month.

[Tim Le]

If you're making a movie, based on the specs only, at this time I would choose the A1.

The heavier weight is actually better when on a tripod, which it should be on one if you're shooting a movie. The wider lens is also better for narrative work. And the strongest ND filter is 1 stop stronger than the V1U. The 1/3" lens will give you slightly narrower DOF too.

But the V1U's ace in the hole may be those sneaky CMOS sensors. It's hard to argue with 24P/30P native progressive. CMOS also doesn't seem to smear and could possibly have greater dynamic range (but this remains to be seen). HDMI is also tempting for effects work. And the lighter weight makes a difference if you do a lot of handheld. But then again, the A1's internal battery bay is better for cold weather filming, like with snowboarding.

Dangit, it sure is hard to choose.

[DavidBeier]

I clearly don't know much about this so can someone explain to me how exactly the Sony is going to get more dyamic range when it's only got a little 1/4 censor? For that matter, what leads us to believe this is going to be any better than the overgrown consumer cameras that the FX1 and Z1s were as far as narrative filmmaking (is the 24p mode going to look just as odd with just as much resolution lose)?

[Fugitive]

Well, Size doesnt matter. Why? Because CCD and CMOS are two different beasts. The little 1/4 sensor can get more dynamic range because CMOS technology is (apparently!) better at that.

What leads us to believe the new Sony will be better than the older sonys? Simply because we are taking sony's word that it is true progressive. If it is, then its going to rock. If not, well then its a shame.

@Zim: Based on just what we know now from specs, I wouldnt buy either cam...Yet! Why, because we have no clue how CMOS in progressive is suppossed to perform. There is no other reference. Besides, both of them have some features better than the other, and lack at some. So its a REALLy tough choice.

[Tim Le]

Why, because we have no clue how CMOS in progressive is suppossed to perform. There is no other reference.
There is one other reference...the RED ONE. But that may not be a fair comparison since that is a mighty big chip with nice fat pixels and of course some Mysterium magic.

[Zim]

Well, Size doesnt matter. Why? Because CCD and CMOS are two different beasts. The little 1/4 sensor can get more dynamic range because CMOS technology is (apparently!) better at that.

What leads us to believe the new Sony will be better than the older sonys? Simply because we are taking sony's word that it is true progressive. If it is, then its going to rock. If not, well then its a shame.

@Zim: Based on just what we know now from specs, I wouldnt buy either cam...Yet! Why, because we have no clue how CMOS in progressive is suppossed to perform. There is no other reference. Besides, both of them have some features better than the other, and lack at some. So its a REALLy tough choice.


Your right it is going to be a tough choice. But before i buy I'm going to need to see more from both cameras.

[Zim]

I won't say who said this but I ask if they thought the Canon would be the best choice for movie making:

"Hi Bob; there is no doubt in my mind that 24F is the best image to replace film there is. the XL H1 was named best second unit cam to the Sony CineAlta for 24F and it's compatibility. so, no doubt whatsoever it will be the most sought after The Sony is 24P. They couldn't make a deal with Canon, so they had to go back to the old Panasonic format. Canon used 30P and 24P longer than anyone did, but now that Digic II is doing 24F, 24P is a poor second for what it is supposed to do. It is just very old technology. 24F is new, and made specifically to look like real film."

[ShannonRawls]

Zim,
that pure F.U.D. - don't beleive it.

How many times Jarred Land, Barry Green, Steve Mullen, Graeme Nattress, Barlow Elton, Adam Wilt, Simon Wyndham, Michael Pappas, Ash Greyson, John Hudson, Douglas Spotted Eagle, Robert Sanders, Steve Rosen, Mike Curtis, Steven Dempsey, Nick Hiltgen, John Cordell, Allister Chapman, Nate Weaver, Shane Valdez, Tim Dashwood, Gary McClurg, A. J. deLange, David Mullen, Greg Boston, Danilo Del Tufo, Stephen Noe, David Newman not to mention SalaTar, Benton, MacGregor, Pazzuzu, Marcio and countless other respected professionals gotta say this....

24p does not LOOK like film.... it only MOVES like film. THAT'S IT!!

to say that 24p is a close 2nd to what it's supposed to do is utterly dumb. the Panasonic method of 24p does EXACLTY what it's supposed to do when processed corectly in post. So does the Canon method of 24f. Infact, 24p and 24f are both awesome and they are indistinguishable from each other as far as motion cadence (their purpose) is concerned. As far as I'm concerned they are the same!

24f = interlaced scanning with progressive recording
24p = progressive scanning with interlacd recording
both = 23.976 frames per second like standard film

The ingredients that is required to make video "LOOK" like film has everything to do with MANY other factors and absolutely nothing to do with the framerate...Why? Because film can move at 30fps if you tell it to! Heck, it can move at 60fps if you tell it to too!

Trick Question: Does film recorded at 60p look like film?
*smile*

Sony couldn't strike a deal?? LOL, man please, that's just dumb too. Sony probably didn't WANT to strike a deal because they needed to be compatible with their other 100,000+ sold products out there.

Friends & Family,
the answer to the question "Which camera is best for making a movie" does not lie between the difference of 24f and 24p.....they ultimately are the same, so just forget that factor.
Instead the answer lies between the other major features of these cameras. THAT'S what you should compare.

I hope that helps,

[Zim]

Thanks Shannon.

[ShannonRawls]

Thank me?
naw....thank YOU Zim for exposing truth and validity.
It's rare

[Emanuel]

Zim,
that pure F.U.D. - don't beleive it.

How many times Jarred Land, Barry Green, Steve Mullen, Graeme Nattress, Barlow Elton, Adam Wilt, Simon Wyndham, Michael Pappas, Ash Greyson, John Hudson, Douglas Spotted Eagle, Robert Sanders, Steve Rosen, Mike Curtis, Steven Dempsey, Nick Hiltgen, John Cordell, Allister Chapman, Nate Weaver, Shane Valdez, Tim Dashwood, Gary McClurg, A. J. deLange, Steve Mullen, Greg Boston, Danilo Del Tufo, Stephen Noe, not to mention SalaTar, Benton, MacGregor, Pazzuzu, Marcio and countless other respected professionals gotta say this....Where's my name there, Shannon?... :cheesy: :laugh: Alright, I am with the other respected professionals, that's OK! :) But not countless!... There? Nope... :D

Cheers! :beer:

[Zim]

Thank me?
naw....thank YOU Zim for exposing truth and validity.
It's rare


I've only owned a XL1s a couple of years ago. So all this 24F and 24P stuff is new to me. So I'm listen to you guys. Most of you have done and used it. You never know what you might here from sales people. Not that they are not right, but the internet really gives a person a much better view of things.

So I'm going to see what happens when the Canon A1 and the Sony V1 come out. I think they are both going to be very good cameras. I lean alittle more to the Sony for some reason. I want a smaller size too.

Plus who know what Panny might do!!

[Emanuel]

I've only owned a XL1s a couple of years ago. So all this 24F and 24P stuff is new to me. So I'm listen to you guys. Most of you have done and used it. You never know what you might here from sales people. Not that they are not right, but the internet really gives a person a much better view of things.I'm with you Zim. It might be why I was out from that Shannon's list (I'm just joking! :laugh:) even if Steve Mullen was mentioned twice...

But you, Shannon, must know what I'm thinking about you as a rebel with a cause. When you're saying that «truth and validity. It's rare» I just can agree even if from that list there are a lot of different colors, indeed...

[jcapurro]

Plus who know what Panny might do!!

Ah yes, the proverbial Ace in the hole... The wild card. Will they release an HVX replacement? Of course. The question is when, and with what specs, and at what price point... As a technology buff, I'd love to see this too. As a realist though and for my own purposes it really is a moot point.

I'm looking at the Canon and Sony because as nice as the HVX is, I'd rather pay 4k and tapes than $5500 for the camera, another $2000 for P2 cards, $600 for a P2Store, and all of a sudden i'm at $8000 for which I could also have:

2 CANONS!! or 2 SONYS!!

Multicam editing anyone?

Just my thoughts,
Jeremy

[Zim]

or a 16:9 DVX. Not even HD. Man what seller that would be,,,,maybe a few other new things on it. I know I know Panasonic will never do that. But they should
Maybe a in camera HD uprezzing system. That could work couldn't it? Jan pass that along to the R&D boys.

[Noel Evans]

Maybe a in camera HD uprezzing system. That could work couldn't it? Jan pass that along to the R&D boys.

But that would be the HVX wouldnt it? :P OK OK one second... its a joke.

Canon will still get my money for the simple fact they are using proven technology from the Xlh1. But thats only me.

[Zim]

I don't want the P2 cards

[meta4]

I'm sure you'll soon be able to get a component out cable for it that goes to HDMI, so I could still use the Intensity capture card.

Is this even possible? I thought that component was analog and HDMI was digital? If this is the case then no 'passive' cable could integrate the two.

You could always record component directly into a DVCPRO deck?!

What are our options with the uncompressed component out? Is this useless or can cineform live ingest be used for this?

Or should I just buck up and get the G1 (or the HVX for that price).

[meta4]

Is this cheaper than the A1 -> G1 upgrade?

Aja HD10A (http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HD10A.html)

Wonder if there's something like this for HDMI?

too bad they don't make an external A/D converter that captures into firewire...(possible?)

[ShannonRawls]

HD-SDI is important but not AS important as timecode, i think.

There is no "FIELD" equipment that will take HD-SDI that does not take COMPONENT as well. And if there is, then that same company undoubtedly makes a component alternative (like marshall monitors). So if you think about it, HD-SDI is more of a 'convienence' for field/production. Now in the post-production/studio world it's much more needed then the field, but still, not THAT much more needed over component, because again, every piece of equipment you have in your "STUDIO" that takes HD-SDI, also takes COMPONENT as well..... EVERYTHING!

Now when it comes to HD-SDI vs. COMPONENT in trms of 'quality', yes, HD-SDI is a smidget cleaner...and believe me i do mean just a SMIDGET. I'm talking put on your bifocals, grab the magnafying glass and smash your nose against the 30" HD monitor to actually see it kinda difference. I've only compared this once back in December and when Me and Nick compared the two, that's what we had to do to see the difference in quality. The Component signal had a teeny bit of dancing in it, while the HD-SDI was rock solid still & crystal clear. For all we know, it was the studio equipment doing it and not the camera.

So in practicality, HD-SDI = convienence.

What is a major difference is TIMECODE+GENLOCK. Now that my friends is a big deal. Especially for moviemaking. When you start graduating into more serious production beyond senior thesis', short films & spec. commercials, you'll soon discover that having timecode is a MUST. From Music Video production, to Movies to Commercials, timecode is a major lifesaver and timesaver accross the board. In field production it's extremely important because of things like VTR/SOUND playback situation...especially for music videos and commercials. also having timecode jamsynced to or from the sound dept. or other cameras on the shoot allows easy review of previously shot footage during your downtime (like lunch or between setups or company moves). For post-production timecode is a godsend! Editors, especially the ones who weren't part of the production process, will absolutely adore you and you will SAVE $$$$$ by eliminating countless hours of sync & match. Then you have the music department who will be scoring your projects at the same time the editor is cutting it all the while the visual effects department is making animations and the sound designer is adding the bigger explosion noises. All these departments may be at their own facility working like an orchestra and they may collaborate by sending snippets of footage and music and sounds and fx via the internet....all with timecode.

So that's why, to me atleast, timecode trumps the scale of importance over HD-SDI, and I beleive anybody who gets a G1 should get it for the above reasons.

[Barry_Green]

Agreed, except for one factor. HD-SDI is designed for long cable runs, analog component isn't. So yes the quality factor might be minor when using a 3' cable, but if you try to run 300' of cable, you'll find HD-SDI holds up a lot better.

If someone wants to RECORD an HD-SDI signal, that's where they'll find what Shannon is really concerned about. Recording HD-SDI is kind of difficult if you don't have timecode and you don't have embedded audio. The G1 and the HD250 offer that, the XLH1 doesn't. So the XLH1's HD-SDI is great for a live camera switching scenario, multiple cameras in a studio feeding an HD-SDI signal to a switcher (because you don't need timecode or audio for that!) but if you want to actually record the uncompressed HD signal somehow, an embedded timecode/audio system like the G1 or HD250 would be better.

[Kholi]

Is this even possible? I thought that component was analog and HDMI was digital? If this is the case then no 'passive' cable could integrate the two.

You could always record component directly into a DVCPRO deck?!

What are our options with the uncompressed component out? Is this useless or can cineform live ingest be used for this?

Or should I just buck up and get the G1 (or the HVX for that price).

You're right. I got the connections backward. It would be HDMI to Component, not the other way around. So that kinda defeats the idea.

And I suppose you could always rent a DVCpro deck. I was thinking of an owned solution.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[David Newman]

Is this useless or can cineform live ingest be used for this?

We are looking into direct capture to CineForm over HDMI, in addition to the existign analog component and HDSDI capture with Prospect HD.

[meta4]

man, that hdmi is a big factor then, it just seems more efficient keeping the data digital rather than component.

I could almost see an HDMI portable capture device coming out soon. But that would most likely never happen for component.

Dang it Canon, why can't you just knock out Sony!!! (shakes fist)

[presario20]

I've been researching both these cams they seem cool. There's one think everyone's overlooking though.

From what I hear, Canon 24F looses resolution.
Sony's 24P does not.

Is this true? Thanks.

[ShannonRawls]

Sony's 24P does not. We don't know. We have to wait till it comes out to compare its 24p mode to its 60i mode and see if the resolution score changes..

[David Newman]

Yes and No.

Canon doesn't have the vertical resolution of the new Sony, yet Canon has the better horizontal resolution. There are both excellent cameras.

[ShannonRawls]

David,
how do you know? You've tested this on a rez chart already? or are you speculating?

I remember a time when the Z1U had excellent resolution numbers, now the same people say it sucks.

[David Newman]

We have a Canon and the horizontal res is excellent, a lot due to the 1440x1080 sensors (and the HDSDI output is amazing.) We have Sony V1U footage, and 960x1080 diagonal ClearVid sensor will not resolve as much as the Canon horizontally, but the Sony V1U clearly has a smoother nicer vertical res. I don't have resolution chart numbers from the Sony V1U, nor would I post them if it did until the camera is released (need to maintain a good relationship with our friends at Sony, Canon and JVC.)

[ShannonRawls]

Grrrrrrrrr, ahhhh c'mon Dave. Sony wouldn't care.

My lips are :lipsrseal

I predict about 2 dozen head to head shootouts will be conducted all over the world with these two cameras. We'll see how it fairs out in terms of resolution when they are shot at the same time @ the same scene.

[David Newman]

It is not CineForm's place to do a camera shootout, as we benefit when all cameras sell well.

[meta4]

The difference though is the capture card:

HDMI: <$300
Component/HDSDI: ~$1000

That's 700 bones, and that's a lot of money for us newbs trying to build our business.

Especially considering how expensive the aspect and prospect HD software is. (I'm gonna have to get it though, when I get an HDV camera)

Question for David:
Does cineform really convert 4:2:0 HDV into 4:2:2 HD?
Can I convert 4:2:0 HDV into 4:4:4 SD?

:dankk2:

[David Newman]

Question for David:
1) Does cineform really convert 4:2:0 HDV into 4:2:2 HD?
2) Can I convert 4:2:0 HDV into 4:4:4 SD?

:dankk2:

Yes and Yes (although not is a single pass for SD 4:4:4 -- but you can do that from an AE or PPro timeline.)

[filmmaker1977]

nor would I post them if it did until the camera is released (need to maintain a good relationship with our friends at Sony, Canon and JVC.)me likes this Mr. David Newman. You're a Sir!

a good example to these forums..


It is not CineForm's place to do a camera shootout, as we benefit when all cameras sell well.

[Fugitive]

stop buttering Filmmaker, you aint getting free Cineform software! :)

(Just kidding man, just kidding) :)

[filmmaker1977]

stop buttering Filmmaker, you aint getting free Cineform software! :)
(Just kidding man, just kidding) :)i'm doing my best, i'm trying.. :)