Iso...

[Jannard]

We are learning about our sensor every day. After returning from IBC, we set out to characterize our sensor. We have learned a lot. We have found more dynamic range (if that was possible) and more sensitivity. We now believe the ISO to be 160. Clean and virtually noiseless. Which makes us believe that pushing it to ISO 800 is a clear reality. We know everyone is impatient to see footage. But we are improving everyday. Relax if you can. We just want to present the best footage we can. Again... we are only 9 months into the project.

Jim

[goldyprog]

Like I mentioned in another thread, I think more and more light will probably be unveiled by this new undertaking (Red), over time.....

[goldyprog]

BTW, I just saw Flyboys (special screening), which I believe was shot with a Genesis camera, and projected flat. It looked awesome, and couldn't tell the difference between that and film. Perhaps, more clean, less noise, and handled filters and grading well. It also produced a similar look/feel as Superman, in my opinion

[acehole111]

Awesome. We're all right behind you. Dont rush it.

Let there be light!

[imgentertainment@mac]

Jim you guys are crazy. So what you are saying is I can shoot in moon light with a flash light and it will have detail. That is just crazy. Good work guys.

[Rocketeer]

The guys at cinematography.com are going to love this post.

[Brook Willard]

What sort of noise ratio would we be seeing at ISO 800?

[firewallet]

Need more dedolights.

[evinsky]

Love it!

[Clint Johnson]

Push to ISO 800! Good news, I was worried that if it was 100-200 the only way a guy was going to be able to get 120 frames per second with adequate exposure time was to have a monster light package. This also means that when you are shooting available light you could still step the lens down a bit to hit its sweet spot... or step it even further to get a deeper depth of field for when you are juggling everything yourself on some handheld and Steadicam work and would prefer not to try and follow focus with a 2.5" DoF.

Now the ENG folks are going to wonder if it can be pushed to a grainy but usable ISO 1600 or 3200... ummm I wonder if it can be pushed to...?

[Haakon]

ISO 160 is amazing. The news just keeps getting better.

[gunleik]

Fantastic!

Gunleik

[mike the beginner]

Low light abilities is a major reason for me purchasing my red one camera.

This is incredible news and the man says "relax" just take things easy!!!!

I am going nuts just now red just got better. Surely there comes a time when more good news becomes "impossible"

Michael

[Poi Boy]

Wow , That is great news ! I am at around 64 asa with my HVX200/M2/Nikor package.. Great News !
Aloha
-A

[Milan Nikolic]

It is great news! RED is low light camera! Dream tool for all of us Dogma movie makers. Hope it could be pushed beyond 800 ASA? My preference is 1.600 ASA for documentary work. We love you RED crew!

[Jannard]

Let me step back in and qualify my statement. It now appears to be ISO 160 and acknowledge that measuring ISO can be a tricky thing. We also have more work to do on the sensor.... SO, things can change. The good news is the image is so clean that no matter what... there is a lot to work with.

Jim

[stephen natanson]

Wonderfull news. Compliments! With images as good in resolution and latitude as those you show in the gallery and and an ISO 160 rating to start off with a whole new world opens up. If you can accept some degradation of the image, pushing the sensor may be dooable? By how much?

Looking forward to lighting a scene by blocking light, shutting windows instead of generator trucks and Kilowatts a gogo.

Even the workflow seems, at the moment, much less frightening than it looked at the begining of your project.

I don't quite understand how you are doing it but it seems that you are giving a mighty kick in the ass in a very slowly moving cinema and video camera industry. I am looking forward to what else you come up with and how the other players try to catch up. It always felt that they were holding things back. Now they better get into gear.

Keep it up so that we as filmakers can try to make similar advances in the language of film. Every wave of new technolgy has produced different ways of filmaking. I wonder how Red will change cinema and video storytelling? Does anyone have any ideas?

[acoreasc]

Excellent news. Felxability in the ISO range without giving up much in terms of the integrity of the image is most welcome news....

[taubkin]

800 is great. If it makes to 400 I'm already satisfied!!

[adaml]

800 is sweet!

[Barry_Green]

It is great news! RED is low light camera!
At 160 ISO? Er... no, not necessarily... 160 ISO is like putting a three-stop ND filter on a PD170...

Consider how many people whine about the HVX's low light performance. The HVX is 320 ISO. Heck, people gripe about the DVX's low light performance. The DVX is 1280 ISO in interlaced mode! A Sony FX1 with no gain on is 160 ISO.

160 is not fast, by any means. But 160 is also, apparently, the base level at zero noise, which is quite promising. What matters is what the effective ISO is at an acceptable level of noise -- a DVX is 1280, but it isn't noise-free by any stretch of the definition. An FX1 is 160, but it's pretty clean; not noise-free, but definitely acceptably clean; you can push it to 6dB and it becomes about as noisy as an HVX at 0dB, so sensitivity and SNR are tied together. 160 ISO with no noise would be great; 12dB of gain on a 160 ISO base level would give you the equivalent of pushing it to 640, and that's very nice. Will the image be still quite clean at 640? Hopefully. Especially if you're using 2k scaled mode so some of the noise gets averaged out in the downrezzing.

[evinsky]

As long as it's organic I think alot of people will like the idea of gaining up and adding a bit of texure to the image. "Superman" clean is an awesome starting point but it's not the right look for everything. we'll have to see how it all pans out. Jim, will there be a Gain/ISO control on the camera? Or just in Red Code? Or is that a "Don't know yet" thing?

[Brook Willard]

If it makes it to 320, I'll be happy. I live and die by 5218 as it stands, I'd prefer to live and die by RED.

[PDX_DVX]

Will it be possible to get accurate readings with a light meter with this camera? I know that with a DVX you can't really judge exposure with a light meter, but I am curious if RED will be any different?

[Graeme_Nattress]

I'd remember though that:

a) everyone measures ISO differently
b) it's tricky to measure
c) we've not put any gain or noise reduction in,

I'd wait till you get a camera in your hands, shoot Jim in a dark garage with two candles for illumination, crank up the gain in REDCINE, and laugh as you get a great, noise free image :-) Because that's just what Jim did.

Graeme

[Darkline]

if RED is going to be more like a DSLR then maybe we shouldnt have gain switches (its so video); but an ISO selector up to 1600 or beyond would be good :-)

it may be grainy as hell, but it'd be nice to have the option. Cranking up the gain in REDCINE alone doesnt sound too user-friendly for on set.

[Barry_Green]

See, now, Graeme, that's what I'm talkin' about. That's exactly what we want!

And yes, selectable ISO would be ideal. It's a film replacement camera right? Gain is a video term, let's have a dial with ISO (or EV for our European friends!)

[Anders Holck]

c) we've not put any gain or noise reduction in,


Is there a "yet" missing after the comma?
Or won't there be A/D gain, and noisereducton in hardware?

[Antoine_Fabi]

I think... an let me say that i'm no expert at all !!!

...that ISO 160 AND noise free image is simply spectacular !
I mean SPECTACULAR !

Just imagine the potential power...

why ?

First, because a less "natively sensitive" sensor is less prone to clip hilights.

Second, because i'm looking for a good signal to noise ratio.
So...if the noise level is very low, you can amplify the signal without fearing too much "amplified" noise because this noise IS low to start with.

...so 160 ISO compared to what ?

If you compare RED 160 ISO sensitivity to another camera that reads 320 ISO but shows 5 times more noise, then my interpretation is that RED is effectively 2.5 times more sensitive.

For a given amount of noise, you will be able to amplify the signal more without degrading the image too much.


I think it is a gift !!!!

Congrats guys !

[evinsky]

I'd
I'd wait till you get a camera in your hands, shoot Jim in a dark garage with two candles for illumination, crank up the gain in REDCINE, and laugh as you get a great, noise free image :-) Because that's just what Jim did.
Graeme

Alright... I'm ready to shoot the sequel to Barry Lyndon now.
http://www.cinematographers.nl/GreatDoPh/Films/BarryLyndon2.jpg

BTW the way I always dtermined ISO was to set an 18% grey card up, light it copystand style, frame as close as possible and set the exposure using a waveform monitor to exactly 50 IRE. Then using the T stop setting you can calculate the ISO from a calibrated spot or incident meter.

That's probably obvious to the Red intelligencia but it's a good "real world" ISO test and I would be very curious what the result would be.

[taubkin]

If it makes it to 320, I'll be happy. I live and die by 5218 as it stands, I'd prefer to live and die by RED.

Hey Brook do you rate 5218 at 320? I usually rate it at 500... What are the big differences? Blacker blacks?

Cheers!

[Policar]

Less noise.

[acoreasc]

sharper contrast, deeper color saturation, minimization of grain

[agwah]

sensors evolve, is it possible as previously suggested, to make the sensor in its own compartment medium format still camera style, that way specialty sensors could be used in an even more flexible system,

[Brook Willard]

It's rated at 500 until you go outside and throw an 85 in there.

[filmmaker1977]

As long as it's organic I think alot of people will like the idea of gaining up and adding a bit of texure to the image. "Superman" clean is an awesome starting point but it's not the right look for everything. we'll have to see how it all pans out. Jim, will there be a Gain/ISO control on the camera? Or just in Red Code? Or is that a "Don't know yet" thing?yeah.. good questions.. but i like clean clean :thumbup: it's another world.. long life to digital!

grainy :thumbdown noisy :thumbdown :thumbdown

[Jannard]

It's rated at 500 until you go outside and throw an 85 in there.

There will be an ISO selection on camera.

Jim

[imgentertainment@mac]

I'd wait till you get a camera in your hands, shoot Jim in a dark garage with two candles for illumination, crank up the gain in REDCINE, and laugh as you get a great, noise free image :-) Because that's just what Jim did.
Graeme

Now that would be a cool 4K image to post.

[Emanuel]

Jim,

Cool already is :D -- you proved it! Nevertheless, the Reverend said 4k...

Emanuel :)

[Purple]

Oh yeah! Barry Lyndon 2, here we come :-)

[Brook Willard]

There will be an ISO selection on camera.

Jim
Heh, I was talking about 5218... but that's fantastic!

[imgentertainment@mac]

I really can't belive how much light you are getting with just two candels that is awsome. And you were right the black is black..

[Emanuel]

Jim,

Cool already is :D -- you proved it! Nevertheless, the Reverend said 4k...

Emanuel :)OK Yoda (http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=17158&st=15) spoke... ;-) But seriously, it gives the same: it is already cool! :beer:

[mike the beginner]

Loving it, you guys are loving it and a certain man who used to frequent another popular forum is absolutely hating every second of it:crybaby:

Well..... red can't please everyone can they

Is this not one flaming hell of a camera or what!

Michael

[Greg Voevodsky]

Two candles plus a blue-ish HMI fill light. Note the flag, shadow across his arm. There might be a bit more contrast and orange color with 2 candles.

[Floris Liesker]

I noticed the "fill light" too. But I don't think he's put up a HMI or anything to trick us (if he had, he'd done it better than this), my guess is that the light is coming from the emergency exit sign in the garage.

[lordnumberzero]

Jim,

I am going to drink myself into a self-induced coma for the next 5-6 months so I can wake up and just have this thing already.

Am I the only person who looks at these boards every time the web browser is launched?

[StMad]

I'd wait till you get a camera in your hands, shoot Jim in a dark garage with two candles for illumination
Graeme

...and then Jim posts a pic with no description.

A good product is one thing, but what about full disclosure?

[GabrielR]

...and then Jim posts a pic with no description.

A good product is one thing, but what about full disclosure?

wow. Jim obviously posted it as a joke. It was funny, ha ha.

Good luck getting full disclosure from any other camera company. Sony STILL hasn't fessed up to the exact details of their HDV chip. If you want full disclosure, wait 'til 6 months after the camera is out then make your decision. There will be lots of footage and tests by then.


But, please, don't torment the president of the a camera company that actually TALKS to us.

[filmmaker1977]

hey jarred, will there be cinematography.com secret agents inside our territory?..


...and then Jim posts a pic with no description.

A good product is one thing, but what about full disclosure?

edit
i was kidding.. but i didn't say full.. just disclosure.. eheh.. the lowlighting response would be quite interesting.. but isn't it what all this thread is about?..

[StMad]

But, please, don't torment the president of the a camera company that actually TALKS to us.

It's not an unreasonable request of a business.

[taubkin]

Heh, I was talking about 5218... but that's fantastic!


Thanks! ;)

[Jarred Land]

heh heh yeah sure sounds like it doesnt it Filmmaker.. I think you may be right.

[Jannard]

StMad, looks like it is 9:30 Thursday there...

[StMad]

StMad, looks like it is 9:30 Thursday there...

I wouldn't have thought so. Things usually go missing for me on the weekend.

Good luck to you (sincerely).