How's this?

[Jannard]

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10724/1158612019.jpg

Jim

[tonacidigital]

love it

[Brook Willard]

I'll take three.

But seriously, thanks for the picture. And does everybody have a Time Tank or what??

[Samsun19]

That's great.

Thanks for the pic.

[mikkowilson]

Much more to my taste.

Now lets see one with the battery on the back and a zoom servo grip on the lens instead of those handles below.

Not becuase it *should be*, but becuase it *could be* configured like a Tradiational Broadcast Camera.

- Mikko

[WesVasher]

Much more to my taste.

Now lets see one with the battery on the back and a zoom servo grip on the lens instead of those handles below.

Not becuase it *should be*, but becuase it *could be* configured like a Tradiational Broadcast Camera.

- Mikko

That might conflict with the display and controls that are on the back of the camera.

Here's a crazy idea. Make the control panel on the back, those buttons and display a modular unit that one can mount anywhere. The downside with this of course is increased complexity and cost.

http://www.vasher.com/junk/redscreen.jpg

[acehole111]

Much cleaner. This oughta please the ENG folk.

I do tend to worry about the aesthetics though. That boxontop of the camera looks a tad insightly. Jim, Hows this, How about designing a slick Oakley style battery belt that hooks up the camera. It could be like the Batman Utility belt. Only with Batteries and any other periphreals.

And without sounding gay (not that theres anything wrong with it), I love the ring that guys wearing.

[mike the beginner]

Are the red rail made from aluminium. It looks like it? That would mean the threads that the screws go into would be of the same material. The rods look like they are held in place by clamping the screw tight. Aluminium is very soft and easily stripped if over tightened or damaged by cross threading. Each time you change between long and short lenses might mean adjusting the rods length. I think that might be a weakness over time.

I commend you on your efforts you really are trying to please these guys, well done:)

[Jannard]

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10724/1158614203.jpg

alternate...

Jim

[Jannard]

Are the red rail made from aluminium. It looks like it? That would mean the threads that the screws go into would be of the same material. The rods look like they are held in place by clamping the screw tight. Aluminium is very soft and easily stripped if over tightened or damaged by cross threading. Each time you change between long and short lenses might mean adjusting the rods length. I think that might be a weakness over time.

I commend you on your efforts you really are trying to please these guys, well done:)

Don't get too focused on any details, you are all still looking at the "sketchpad".

Jim

[acehole111]

Also that Truss which supports the pack need not be that high. You already have quite a rigid beam truss structure so im not sure why that platform needs to be that high. Or even if the pack could sit inbetween the truss's rather than ontop of it. Ah tiny details.

[filmmaker1977]

Much cleaner. This oughta please the ENG folk.all my work is coming from the film side but my art beliefs are there at EFP/ENG door.. that's the (digital) cinema of the future not the heritage coming from the talkies.. we must be forward not back..

go ahead master jim :thumbsup:

[acehole111]

Don't get too focused on any details, you are all still looking at the "sketchpad".

Jim

Just anodize the darn thing black and set everyones minds at ease :)

[mikkowilson]

The alternate is a little better - but you still have to take the camera off your shoulder to change any settings, that's unnacceptable for ENG and very restricting for EFP.

Where's my Record button? Iris & zoom control? Etc... Stuff I need to be able to control while shooting, not between shots.

- Mikko ... only pushing because he wants it to work.

[Jannard]

There are a thousand combinations...

Jim

[J.R. Hudson]

I'd like to see the handgrips be able to go forward and out and NOT to the sides and up ...

It also looks heavy on the wrists; I rather use my arms (forearms, biceps, triceps) to manuever this thing.

The handgrips also look weak. I wanna run and gun with this thing and not worry about losing it.

[acehole111]

I think thats the key. Make the unit fit in any of the 14345938 holes and let the public do what they want with it.

[J.R. Hudson]

It also looks weirdly Top Heavy.

[imgentertainment@mac]

I love it Jim I think when people get their cameras and we all configure them differently people will look back and say that is what they were talking about. We can't expect you to take over a 1000 pic's of different ways to set it up. Good Work keep it up.

[J.R. Hudson]

(In best Capt Kirk voice)

"Must - resist - posting - this image !"

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6365/untitled3mp8.jpg

[killfilm]

Thanks Jim, but i'm afraid someone might mistake it for a rocket launcher

[acehole111]

I definately wont be "shooting" with it in any warzone.

[tlorenzo]

Geee.... If I had a CNC mill I'd never get any "real" work done ;-)

Nice job, Jim.

[gunleik]

I've missed this for a while, but now I'll jump in...

I'd love some focus/zoom/start-stop handle to appear on the grips om the rail someday...

You know, if you're gonna focus this thing with both your hands on the rail...
But it's probably there. I've just not seen it.

Cheers!

Gunleik

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hey Jim,

Pic looks cool. I would like to offer feedback, but I don't want to waste your time with stuff you already know.. That said I have a question:

Were you posting this pic just to show the scale with a lens and person using it? Or... Was there a specific change you wanted me/us to see and comment on?

Jay

[WarrenS]

Sa-weet. This thing really IS configurable. It looks like it will sit nicely on my tripod or jib. It even looks fairly balanced.

[Jannard]

He could take his hands down and the camera stayed on his shoulder... perfectly balanced. These were posted just to give a taste of the incredible versatility of the system. We'll post a whole group in a week or so when the new body and rail/cage system is done. One thing you can't see is how light the system is.

Jim

[stephen natanson]

Looks rather high and top heavy. Actors tend to be small and I am tall. Just being selfish.
The shoulder scoop is also rather deep which will produce a thunk (bump) in extreme pan ups or down or in cramped positions.
The camera looks a little overengineered and fussy but that is because it is a prototype I presume.
Besides these minor details it looks very good and quite practical. Keep up the good work.
It is such a pleasure to see someone trying to rationalise and rethink the camera instead of just tweaking traditional forms or adding "design".
By the way have you thought of a setup for the "rolleiflex" style of film-videomaking which works very well with the hdv, dv and betacam type cameras?

[acrochordon]

"Must - resist - placing - order." "Can - hold - out - till Halloween."
I really should save money for a condo instead of buying a camera. Damn you Jim, it is hard to keep my wallet closed.
A start/stop button where your thumbs go would be nice. This set up looks much better than the rail.
The Arri is named after the guy Arri. Will the Red camera have the name JIM etched on the side of it (kind of like HAL, except JIM)?

[filmmaker1977]

One thing you can't see is how light the system is.

JimLight.. me likes.. and that's the concept.

[Brook Willard]

Is there any functional difference between the steel rods and the CF rods? Or were those merely the rods that you guys had handy for the shoot?

[Kjetil Haugen]

With the black finish and a matte box it's gonna look like a really professional peace of machinery!! It will definetly turn some heads!!!

[stevesherrick]

I would say with any product, it's hard to make something that suits everyone's needs. But it seems to me that they are taking great care to make this system modular and configurable, to the extent that it should suit a lot of people's situations.

I love the idea of a camera that is not locked into a certain firmware or software as well. It seems like there will be updates to it as the company tweaks them in the future. I love that about my Sound Devices 744T audio recorder. They make tweaks to the firmware and often times, they are great additions to an already great product. And I love the build quality of that recorder as well. That's what really has me intrigued about this camera. It looks like the quality of the build itself will be very good.

Can't wait to see this thing come to life. Exciting times.

Steve

[runehansen]

Hey Jim.

Both of these configs are kind of awkward. The battery is very elevated. You want a lowish profile for handheld and to maintain a low center of gravity. Batteries are heavy. And the battery cable... I see why the cable is there, and I see why the battery is not hanging directly off the rear (because of the display) but I don't like it. Also, cables snag.

What about placing the battery under the lcd display, basically hanging it more at the level of the shoulder pad?

Also, you definitely want a handle on top of the camera for carrying it, so consider that for this config also. This config doesnt' have that. Also how do you cradle the camera in a crouching position? Remember, handheld is not only shoulder-mounted...

I love to see the camera with a lens on though. It gives a much better impression.

Also, I wonder about the rods -- aren't they awfully low compared to the lens? You'd need some kind of bridge to mount a small mattebox or follow-focus on that, no?

--Rune

[WarrenS]

There are pictures on the Red site of configurations with the handle on top and the battery below or in the back. The pics on this thread show new possibilities, for example, if I was crammed in the back seat of a car for a shot I might be happy to be able to place the battery in such a way as to keep the camera short and compact.

I don't think RED's strength is going to be as a run 'n gun camera, but if you want it to be, it looks like you can take off everything and just cradle the body in your hands. Muy Con-FIG-UR-ABLE.

[AuditoryVisuals]

It looks like, if you have a black plastic body, it would look more like a ENG camera. Right now it looks like something Samus Aran might use, but that's good!

[runehansen]

<There are pictures on the Red site of configurations with the handle on top and the battery below or in the back. The pics on this thread show new possibilities, for example, if I was crammed in the back seat of a car for a shot I might be happy to be able to place the battery in such a way as to keep the camera short and compact.>

Certainly. I can't find pictures of the battery pegged close to the camera body at the back, only on the extension rods. This is probably the handheld config I like the best: http://red.com/images/photo/10_b.jpg (but with two handles) -- seems like it would be really nicely balanced.

That render also shows the closer rods which can be used for mattebox, follow-focus, etc. They don't seem to be on the mockup/prototype in the photos.

-rune

[WarrenS]

[I]<This is probably the handheld config I like the best: http://red.com/images/photo/10_b.jpg (but with two handles) -- seems like it would be really nicely balanced.


I like that one too. The back in that rendering looks like part of a mounting plate and isn't even on rods.

[WarrenS]

I wonder if anyone is getting inspiration from http://www.zacuto.com. They even call one of their components the "RED plate".

[Carlos Ebert]

love it

I dont understand why the camera body is brilliant. In a situation with strong back light, a reflex came direct to the face of the actor. Not that brilliant (the design)

[WarrenS]

Carlos, the camera body will be black. They are still in modeling stage.

[Jaime Valles]

Looks wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. This just gets better and better.

And, yes, it will be black by the time they're done with it.

[Jaime Valles]

That might conflict with the display and controls that are on the back of the camera.

Here's a crazy idea. Make the control panel on the back, those buttons and display a modular unit that one can mount anywhere. The downside with this of course is increased complexity and cost.

http://www.vasher.com/junk/redscreen.jpg

That's a great idea, Wes! I doubt it'll make it to the camera, but kudos for the suggestion!

[Jay A. Kelley]

I like seeing the camera with a lens.. However it would seem that Jim and the boys have kind of left us in the dust at this point.

What I mean is that they already know what the body is going to look like and I think it's safe to assume that with a target date of December to produce a WORKING prototype, I would guess they can't do much more in following suggestions for changes now.

The first generation Body is pretty close to what it's going to be at this point. It's time to sit back and watch the show!

Jay

PS: Can you imagine the incredible amount of work they must have on their plate to make those target dates right now? I bet it's really hitting the fan over there

[boothba]

Your post scares me Jay. God I hope they don't rush this thing too much and end up compromising. Deadlines are great - but this one is really ambitious. Looking great by the way.

[stevesherrick]

As much as I would love to have a camera in my hands tomorrow, I think there is something to be said for making sure you get it right. I would rather see the camera delayed if it means they have extra time to work out some problem areas. I mentioned earlier that it will be great if the firmware can be updated via flash cards, that allows some tweaks to be made after delivery, but from a design perspective, it would be unfortunate if things were rushed to make a delivery date. Jim seems to be a guy who's interested in doing things right, so I'm sure this will be the case with the Red and its delivery date.

I'll admit though, it's tough to read all about this camera and not want one immediately. There have been some great suggestions from people on these boards too, which even if they don't get implemented in the first run, maybe they will in a second or third generation. What a brilliant approach by the team at Red to be involved with end users.

Steve

[donatello]

IMO if RED doesn't think it's ready they will take more time ..
sit back - relax - enjoy the evolutions ...

[Jannard]

FYI, we can change this design 20 more times (probably will) and still be on time. If we need any excuse (hope not) for being late, it won't be the industrial design. It will be in the complexity of the board designs and capabilities that we plan to offer. No worries as of today.

Yes to black body. Yes to battery/drive being hung low. Yes to battery/drive being behind either high, level or low.

The rods are standard 19mm in the proper position for matte boxes, etc. 15mm can be added to the front if necessary.

Look at NAB designs to now. That has been only 5 months. We still have 5 months (or so) to go. A lot can happen.

This project sure is fun.

Jim

[CVB]

I like seeing the camera with a lens.. However it would seem that Jim and the boys have kind of left us in the dust at this point.

What I mean is that they already know what the body is going to look like and I think it's safe to assume that with a target date of December to produce a WORKING prototype, I would guess they can't do much more in following suggestions for changes now.

The first generation Body is pretty close to what it's going to be at this point. It's time to sit back and watch the show!

Jay, I'm assuming that Jim is going to invesment cast or machine most of the parts for the December build... If so it only takes a week or less to make masters for the molds and you can start busting parts out fairly fast. I've make products on the same level of complexity (mechanically) as Red and had them done in less than three weeks.

For the production units I'd expect to see die cast parts - the finish comes out much nicer. :)

[stevesherrick]

That's great to hear Jim. Seems like it keeps getting better with each day, so seems like we might be in for even more good stuff before it's all said and done.

How difficult and complex will the manufacturing process be? I imagine it must be quite the challenge to put this all together. I have to admit, I know nothing about manufacturing, so it seems daunting to me.

[Jannard]

I've heard that this project is impossible... hehe

Jim

[stevesherrick]

Yeah, but that was probably someone from one of those other camera companies saying that (cough...cough...)

steve

[Brook Willard]

I couldn't resist...

[stevesherrick]

They also said going to the moon was impossible too...Oh wait, wasn't that filmed in a studio somewhere?

[Darkline]

With the drive becoming external and everyone talking about making the whole camera modular/detachable; I'm a little concerned how the real run and gun handheld aspect is going to work.

Is it possible to go out and shoot handheld with RED? or do the floating battery and HDD make this a 99% on the rails job?

There are times when having the flexibilty of a light/compact camera like a DVX come in real handy. I think this was the concept with RED, anything from handheld to huge beast machine, but the more in development it goes the more it's looking like hand-held may not be so simple.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok well according to Jim I am BIG TIME wrong.. Glad to hear it actually as I love the progress of the design and it's good to hear things are still flexible.

Jay

[Jaime Valles]

With the drive becoming external and everyone talking about making the whole camera modular/detachable; I'm a little concerned how the real run and gun handheld aspect is going to work.

Is it possible to go out and shoot handheld with RED? or do the floating battery and HDD make this a 99% on the rails job?

There are times when having the flexibilty of a light/compact camera like a DVX come in real handy. I think this was the concept with RED, anything from handheld to huge beast machine, but the more in development it goes the more it's looking like hand-held may not be so simple.
I think that one will be able to mount the HDD and Battery directly on the camera body as well. Attach them either below or above the body, no rods/rails/cages needed. So all you'd need is the body, a Hard Disk, a battery and a lens, and you're good to go.

[Lensmith]

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/10724/1158614203.jpg

alternate...

Jim

Better...but like others...I'd like to see the set-up with a lens that has zoom/focus controls mounted on the handles. I still think the double hand grips look silly and out of touch with real working conditions.

Put a lens on your mock-up that is "real". Meaning one that has the remote zoom controls. The current example may work for some film projects but will not cut it for many other applications.

A handle? I know you don't want to follow the typical ENG cam layout but...you need to be able to carry that camera securely. A strap will not do that. You need something strong and reliable.

Maybe it's time for some to admit this camera will not fit everyone's needs. It's more for productions which have time and patience. It doesn't seem to be evolving into anything which will meet news gathering needs. That's ok. Panavision is still in business for now! They aren't worried about having their cameras used for news and documentaries. Maybe Red should take the same tact.

What would it look like with a top light on it?

There are so many new and lighter battery systems out there. Smaller than what you show. Why not mock-up a camera with one of them?

Just some thoughts and an effort to be helpful.:)

[adaml]

A minor point, but I'd like to see the shoulder pad slope to match the natural downward slope of the shoulder. Even better would be an adjustable pad support or interchangeable pads. As with my previous suggestions, RED is probably ahead of me on this. I think that each time they make a prototype and get to see it and try it out they probably start brainstorming ideas even before they put it out for us to see.

It's nice to hear that the balance is good even at this point. I'm still inclined to want to do everything possible to lower the center of gravity (battery/drive back and low down, possibly even slightly less gap between shoulder pad and bottom of camera).

[mike the beginner]

Sometimes putting things into perspective can be re-assuring.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=766&d=1158654700

Surely it is only a matter of time till red get the ideal solution for cine and for run & gun use. They are working on it every day.

Michael

[Robert Sanders]

Sometimes putting things into perspective can be re-assuring.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=766&d=1158654700

Surely it is only a matter of time till red get the ideal solution for cine and for run & gun use. They are working on it every day.

Michael

Thank you for posting that picture. That Panavision rig is exactly what I was thinking when everyone started kavetching about the form factor. LOL!

[filmmaker1977]

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=766&d=1158654700 [posted by mike]

poor guy.. do you see how that lady (or the guy with long hair.. it's difficult to get know..) solved the problem?.. eheh





edit
okay seeing his breast i'd say "his" not "her"

[Ranger]

Couple thoughts ...

Replace the rail handles with a flight controller type mechanism. Of course, the buttons would control various camera functions (focus, record, etc.).

http://www.essexind.com/images/manufac_page4_b2_full.jpg

Also, as part of the Red line-up, a Red stabilizer system and matte box would be great that doesn't require applying for a second mortgage.

[Sumfun]

Which button launches the missile?

[acoreasc]

yeah - before a take, instead of camera rolling you can say "I've got tone...firing"

[laguun]

most funny thing happened yesterday.

35mm camera operator which (as of principle) hates digital has been brutalized by his dop to use cinealta cams of ours on the actual shooting.

as a "NAY!" sayer he comes to our studio to pick up some additional gear, asks "so, you have been at IBC, whats about this sci-fi camof yours".. (we told him a lil bit about red).

i answer: "oh, we saw some footage, it was rather gorgeous"...

he replies, "yeah, read everything in the web about it, was a 3d animation for sure"... and leaves.

he was wearing (no joke)... a t-shirt....


saying....



(jim, that one is REALLY for you ;) )

"oakley - thermonuclear protection".




p.s. couldn´t see if the sunglasses were by oakley.

[mike the beginner]

What if the battery pack/red drive bracket were to slot into the top of the camera body something like a grove in the body and the red rail just slid on and locked. No gap between body and battery/drive. Tripod heads just slide on to tripods and lock. Why not something similar to reduce centre of gravity. Just a thought?

Michael

[Greg Voevodsky]

How about showing Red on a tripod - fully loaded with lense and all the cables?
I love the almost fully rigged hand held, but lets see it in Cine mode!

[mikkowilson]

..eh eh .. and I'll be happy to volounteer my services to model the Red on a Steadicam .. just send over a proto and I'll send it back with some photos.. :)

- Mikko

[KOVAROVA]

really has a military / weapon like feel. did you have that in mind?

[ludmux]

this is quite perfect - exactly how we discussed with several people at cinec. it must be a well organized camera, well balanced on the shoulder - and well balanced on a tripod. but please all dvx people do not forget - this is a camera cinematography style - not a dvx - so there is no need for focus and zoomremote on the camera - except a cmotion or alladin or a microforce, which would be mounted on the rods..
@red - it is very important, that the people can use their existing 35mm stuff - matteboxes, fluids, wireless focus etc.... this all must fit !

[taubkin]

I think the lens is a little too high from the camera base. That would make it hard to use it with some rail/follow focus system. Besides it's not very ergonomical to reach very high for focus. That's why shoulder mounted cameras, like the new arri and the aaton, have reentrances so they just "fit"over your shoulder, and the lens doesn't have to be so high. And if you put an ENG lens on it, see how high the operator arm must be to hold the camera by it's lens grip?

[andersh]

It seems to me that it would be easy to put the lens a little lower: Since the lens right now is placed in the upper part of the camera body, just flip it upside down. I don't know if that will give a heat problem. One way to lower the center of gravity would be to run a rod down and round the front of the shoulder and placing the disk and batteries under your shoulder, next to your elbow.

[acrochordon]

http://www.aaton.com/products/film/
"Like a cat on the shoulder."
(photo is from aaton website)

[donatello]

"Since the lens right now is placed in the upper part of the camera body, just flip it upside down"

is that flip the whole camera ( as in shoot upside down) or lower the lens mount ?

[andersh]

is that flip the whole camera ( as in shoot upside down) or lower the lens mount ?
I was thinking, that Jim could flip the whole camera body, which was just a different way to say, that the lens mount could be lowered (ie. there sould be room enough). Sorry if I am to unclear.

[Brook Willard]

Note that if it is too high, the upper rods could be used for mounting those accessories.

[WarrenS]

Hey Andrew, I met an Andrew M when he was doing a short gig in Medford, OR a year ago. I'm trying to figure out if you're the same M.

[Andrew M]

Unlikely. I have never been to Oregon. : )

[stokestack]

From that shot it looks like the viewfinder blocks access to the lens rings.

[Clint Johnson]

The newer pictures on Red.com show it with smaller rods mounted higher and closer to the body - and they look plenty close enough to the lens mount for a clean follow focus setup.
http://red.com/images/photo/11_b.jpg

[SF Geek]

Does everyone realize that all these mock-ups and photos are just examples of what can be done and that the camera isn't going to be welded into place like that? If the rig looks top heavy, don't set it up that way! Also, as you can see, these examples aren't meant for ENG setups. The camera would look and act completely differently if it was set up for what some people close-mindedly call "real world situations". If you had a 2/3" video lens with a built in motor drive, you wouldn't use the handles, rail, or the cage. You would hold the lens like you always did. You also wouldn't be shooting 4k. You would have to use the 2/3" adapter and shoot windowed 1080, maybe 2k.

If you want to shoot handheld cine style: 4k with 35 lenses, you usually use the rails and the handles. If you want zoom and focus motor drives, you buy or rent them. They don't come with the camera. They're accessories. The only thing that would come with the camera is a remote start and stop and a port for remote menu controls. If you want a fizz unit or a microforce you buy or rent them separately just like lenses, a matte box, cinetape, monitor etc.

I don't know what Jim and Red's exact focus is, but I'm guessing that it's to create the things we have been seeing, first. They're making a 4k capable camera with a standard 35mm PL mount for film production. You will be able to put an adapter on the camera for other lens mounts and make it suitable for other shooting styles/needs. But the adapters are not the main focus. They'll come later.

Can we all just ask Jim well thought out questions, so he'll keep listening and replying. He's a busy man and the more time he has to spend wading through impulse and knee-jerk questions/comments the less time he has working on the actual camera. Please Jim, don't stop listening! There are some good points and suggestions that actually make it through. Like the question about the control panel. If we might be more apt to rear mount many things, battery, raid drive, would the control panel be in a better position on the operator side of the camera instead of on the back? Also, do you have plans to build in a port for remote on/off and menu functions? One compatable with 2/3" lenses?

Thanks for listening Jim

[Clint Johnson]

No need to get snippy SF Geek, I’m pretty sure that most here know that this is a design in flux and that it will change over the coming months. The reason that I dropped that picture in there was for one specific point - some were worried that the rods were too far from the lens mount and were thinking that the lens mount would have to be relocated or the body would have to go through some other modification. I was merely pointing out that they have addressed this already with a couple pictures showing an example of rods mounted higher and closer to the body than most of the other pictures show.

The position of the control panel or compatibility with 2/3” lenses actually seems to be slightly less salient than the positioning of a follow focus system when it concerns a camera coming from Red Digital Cinema Camera Company. Just sayin’

[SF Geek]

Sorry Clint. I wasn't talking about you or anyone in specific. I just happened to post that after your posting, not in response to it. I think Jim and red will try to keep the lens mount at the right distance from the rods so the camera will be able to use existing follow focuses and matte boxes. You had a valid question. What I don't like is when Jim shows people different options for how to configure the camera for many specific situations and people complain about how it doesn't work for another situation. I just want people to think things through. That's all.

[firewallet]

What I don't like is when Jim shows people different options for how to configure the camera for many specific situations and people complain about how it doesn't work for another situation. I just want people to think things through. That's all.
Take your experience (and others), take the aggregate work, statements, posts and the benefits of the configurable nature of the R1 are apparent. (this not meant to slag nor to say not to suggest- but dvxuser is a great resource of what has already been said)

Also, Jim has stated that they are 20 renditions down the road on design and configs. We are lucky. These are incredible times.

I would have my # if not for fax snafus.

ps Mike the B... I will write back soon, its a long one.

[omen]

I'm REALLY interested in the comments from the competition, after IBC. Arri was close to the booth.

Any feedback, Jim ?

[Gibby]

There will be literally hundreds of possible equipment configurations with a modular camera system like RED. Each render is just a depiction of one possible configuration. I do believe that longtime shooters are so used to the limited options, pre-planned, "here's our camera, now use it" form factor and utility approach from manufacturers over the years, that it is hard for them to wrap their minds around the concept of a truly modular camera. RED will not have many limitations in potential configurations - the limitations will lay in the imaginations, biases, and limited skill sets of its users.

Jim and staff could render out hundreds of potential setups for RED, and due to the three user limitations I've listed above, someone would still come up with "But why can't it be this way?" comments. You can have it that way - just start with the central camera, and accessorize it into what you need. The renders are not cast in concrete - they merely depict individual ideas for design features and equipment setups.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4,tv
www.4umat.com

[taubkin]

Well I'm sure people mean no disrespect, but if a design is shown to public scrutiny, we better give them what is worring us. Afterall, that's why we're shown theese things. Now of course I never seen one of them REDs live, so I can't have a final opinion on them, the people at RED are better suited to make every decision necessary. But if they can find something out they were goint to miss in the process, the better. It's a company with a very small staff, and they depend on us too to create
a better product. They have so much on their hands, it's not impossible one or another minor detail can escape their sights.

Apple doesn't like people commenting their designs. They simply work absolutely behind closed doors. RED has the right to do so, if it gets too unconfortable. I don't think you really have to defend them for our critiscisms, even the ones that are far innacurate either by ignorance (somebody who never shot film who wants an autofocus button, or who thinks a bartech focus device is a must-have acessory) or because it is being posted from the other side of the world. Just let it be. They will make the best out of the best comments and discard the worst.

Cheers!

[Gibby]

I think you missed the point of my post Taubkin. It's obvious that RED is seeking input, otherwise they would be designing the camera system in secret like most other manufacturers. What is also obvious, if you check through all these threads since December, is that with each batch of renders, RED has to explain over and over that nothing is finalized, that it is a work in progress, that there are many possible configurations even after the camera specs are finalized, that it is a modular camera, etc. At some point those statements of RED should sink into our consciousness, don't you think? Internalizing those details will avoid repetitive posts by us, and the resultant need for RED to repeat their "nothing finalized, work in progress, and modular camera" statements.

Input is great – but if more people would use the search function, and take the time to read through the threads here, and internalize the caveats RED has stated many times, RED could devote less time to repeating themselves, and spend more time on analyzing new suggestions and refinements.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com

[Clint Johnson]

SF Geek, reading my own post this morning and it looks like I could probably have tried to come across as a little less snippy as well.

I wonder if it would be clearer and easier to follow if they started versioning the renderings? Not wanting to make more work for them but if the latest images came with a burn in on the lower right saying “Beta Version 0.1.5” or some such then people might internalize the transient nature of the design- as well it would let us know when a particular render has been superseded.

Most certainly not saying that they should do this since the Red Team has been going way above and beyond what can be expected of them... just that it would be nice and help keep things clear.

[Ranger]

Thought I beat this dead horse again reference the rail grips.

In the picture below, the handle is facing in the wrong direction in order to show the button/controller layout (this actual controller comes off an F18). Topgun jokes aside, I think this idea merits thought for the following reasons:
* Ergonomic hand design (hand straps could be attached for additional security as well as reducing strain to the hand muscles)
* Multiple controls for:
- zoom, focus, record, menu control, etc.
* Immediate camera function response within your fingertips while maintaining positive control on the grips

http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting-data//500/30743Red1.jpg

[taubkin]

I think you missed the point of my post Taubkin. It's obvious that RED is seeking input, otherwise they would be designing the camera system in secret like most other manufacturers. What is also obvious, if you check through all these threads since December, is that with each batch of renders, RED has to explain over and over that nothing is finalized, that it is a work in progress, that there are many possible configurations even after the camera specs are finalized, that it is a modular camera, etc. At some point those statements of RED should sink into our consciousness, don't you think? Internalizing those details will avoid repetitive posts by us, and the resultant need for RED to repeat their "nothing finalized, work in progress, and modular camera" statements.

Input is great – but if more people would use the search function, and take the time to read through the threads here, and internalize the caveats RED has stated many times, RED could devote less time to repeating themselves, and spend more time on analyzing new suggestions and refinements.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv (http://www.cut4.tv)
www.4umat.com (http://www.4umat.com)

Sorry Gibby, I forgot to quote the original poster. I wasn't replying to your post in particular. In fact I think I was replying to Clint's post.

And the point is that I agree with you, that we should make an effort to post useful feedback, but I just don't see why people are getting frustrated because of the useless feedback. It's bound to happen, and it's a downside of the system they chose. Besides, they are not wasting time here, they are spreading the word to thousands of pottential buyers, even when they are answering to less informed posts.

All I'm saying is that filtering through all this content, is their job too.

Cheers!

[deadkrash]

Thought I beat this dead horse again reference the rail grips.

In the picture below, the handle is facing in the wrong direction in order to show the button/controller layout (this actual controller comes off an F18). Topgun jokes aside, I think this idea merits thought for the following reasons:
* Ergonomic hand design (hand straps could be attached for additional security as well as reducing strain to the hand muscles)
* Multiple controls for:
- zoom, focus, record, menu control, etc.
* Immediate camera function response within your fingertips while maintaining positive control on the grips

Jim has stated before that this camera will be all manual, and that the only lens control will be coming from manually adjusting the lens. I wouldn't count on auto or remote adjustment coming from RED. Perhaps a third party.

[evinsky]

There are many third party party products available for Zoom, focus and Iris control of Cinema cameras. Microforce comes to mind first.