Red Rental Revenue

[Doc Holliday]

I am getting this camera because it haunts me in the night, but most of my income comes from editing (I do both editing and video). Will there be any money to be made from renting the camera out? Do people kill cameras when they rent them? Will I have to create a "camera package" in order to rent it out (lenses of all sorts/cages/drives and whatnot)? Are there other Red-Maniacs in Atlanta who know if this is viable in the local market?

Side note: Professionals still use Beta SP everyday. That makes me chuckle. Good to be livin' in the 20th century.

[Barry_Green]

Will there be any money to be made from renting the camera out?
Yes, but especially if you go along as DIT/camera tech.


Do people kill cameras when they rent them?
Absolutely. But not if you go along as DIT/camera tech. :thumbsup:


Will I have to create a "camera package" in order to rent it out (lenses of all sorts/cages/drives and whatnot)?
Yep. You'll at least need a solid package of camera/lens/power/tripod/etc.

[Jarred Land]

Good points Barry.. the good thing with RED is that the support equipment is standardized.. it will work with ARRI rods, CHroz Matteboxes, Any PL Lens, etc.. so for the expensive stuff whoever is renting from you can pick up from a normal rental house.. until you can afford to buy a box of primes and add them to your rental kit.

[Benjamin Rowland]

I'm in the same boat as Doc Holliday. I make 95% of my income through editing a TV show, I live near Atlanta, and I'm wondering what the market will be for the Red camera. And yes, I have reserved one - wondered if I was crazy after I did. I will probably have to rent it out to justify the cost, but mostly I bought it for shooting my own projects. Crazy? Maybe.

[sndrk]

Me too! Editor and doing own projects and wanting to rent out! We should start some information exchange. I also think it is no so strange to buy a RED cam as an editor now, especially if you want to move on to higher quality stuff. I notice there is still a huge gap between working for video and working for film. My hope is that knowing how to work with RED footage and showing results will get me closer to editing a feature. Besides that it will be a real joy to work with super quality footage.

[visceralpsyche]

Well, I'm in Australia but I too plan on hiring out the camera as a package with myself as camera op (or at the very least on site camera tech). I plan on hiring out the lenses initially as I won't have the money to buy any until I have made some with the camera (will be putting a deposit down for the Red Zoom). Will buy a good tripod, a couple of Red Drives, battery kit (looks like IDX or Anton Bauer ones will work just fine) and probably Red Rail, then hire the lot plus myself out as a package. Gives me income AND experience AND networking for when I direct my own films.

Oh and I also plan on having partial or complete post workflow as well for additional cost. The partial will be basic encoding via RedCine to the production's preferred format, on a hard drive they supply. Full workflow will be encoding plus post production elements like colour grading, editing suite hire etc. This will come in stages as I get the money/revenue to put it all in place. I do work in computers right now, so building the hardware isn't a problem as I can do it at cost. Hell, I just built myself a Core 2 Duo system with 1.2TB of hard drive space and an eSATA port to ingest footage and push it back out to a normal hard drive.

I also plan to do all this from a hired out small warehouse which I can paint a nice greenscreen colour downstairs and have a top level with all the equipment and computer gear. Business loan for initial financing, hopefully with a small list of clients ready to go upon arrival of the camera. Will probably do an initial discounted rental price to get a queue ready. Don't forget business/equipment/liability insurance as well to round it all off!

Hope that gives people some idea.

[donatello]

at some point start to mention the RED to your editing clients ...
let them know that yours will be up for rental ... IMO rent to persons you know somewhat vs. strangers ... if you can only afford the body you might check in with local camera rental houses to see what kind of package you can work out with them ( you rent RED to persons and the lens & accessories come from rental house ) = camera package ...

ALSO you might be able to work out a agreement/deal with a camera rental house to rent out your RED when you're not using it.

[geo]

Are you an editor or a rental house? At this point, why not get a good lighting package to rent out? My Dedolights/Kinos/Arris have made me much more income compared to my DVX... and they don't depreciate: they will be just as usable 20 years from now as they are now. The trick is: I'm a DP and finding work for my kit is easy. I've had them out on just about everything I've been hired to shoot. That's the key: Things that I've been hired to shoot. I'm not out pounding on doors looking for rental clients.

Cameras are a different beast. Right now I won't get one (well... a "real" camera. I have a DVX). My clients shoot on SP, DvCam, DigiBeta, DVX, DVC-Pro and now DVC-ProHD EX. I don't want to stick all my money into one of the formats hoping for it to pay off itself. I would lose other clients' work because I'd be just trying to get that $60,000 camera package work.

And yes, you need a full package: for narrative, a good set of primes ($50K used). for ENG, a good HD zoom (not available for RED yet). Tripod new is $8K. Batteries are about $800 each. HD monitor for the director is in the thousands. Plus, you need the manditory camera add-ons: viewfinder, harddrive. Clients want one-stop shopping for camera. They will get camera from one place and g&e from another... but they really don't want to get the camera body from one place and sticks/monitor from a different camera rental house.

It's a whole can of worms if you are an editor. If you are a shooter exclusively it could be a better move. I will look at what kind of shooting market there is for that camera when its out... and then I will get it when I need it. Don't just get it because its cool.

[Jarred Land]

all you guys wanting to rent stuff.. ive got a big surprise to make your life alot easier coming (hopefully) tonight.

[tlorenzo]

At the current price don't you think all the major rental houses are going to stock up on RED? Thus making it pretty impossible for the "little guy" to rent out his precious RED camera to help paying for it? That's my biggest concern, really. I'd reserve a RED in an instant if I knew I'd be able to rent it out from day one and use the rental money to pay for it.

[geo]

At the current price don't you think all the major rental houses are going to stock up on RED? Thus making it pretty impossible for the "little guy" to rent out his precious RED camera to help paying for it? That's my biggest concern, really. I'd reserve a RED in an instant if I knew I'd be able to rent it out from day one and use the rental money to pay for it.


Couldn't agree more. SDX-900's are renting for $400 a day now. For a package! I get $300/day for my DVX from one client when I bring it out. Now... why would I drop $50,000 building an SDX package ($17,000 body, $2000 viewfinder, $23000 lens, sticks, batts, monitor...) when it only nets a bit more than my $5000 DVX package?

Rental houses work off of quantity... they are Costco. Producers can always get a better deal from there compared to the little guys. It will be the same thing with Red.

[mavrix]

My experiences have shown that if the camera and format are in demand you can always find someone to rent to. Even in Los Angeles, I sometimes have a hard time finding cameras I want to rent because they are often out for extended periods - its one of the contributing factors why I buy most of my own camera packages now.

There are always people who abuse rental equipment - I've seen some camera's and lenses brutalized upon return to BandPro - thus I think its important that either 1) the rental houses have adequately trained techs to work on and repair the cameras or 2) Red has a very supportive repair center or network of repair centers that is quick in turn-around and good with their communication.

[Gibby]

I never rent out my high-end equipment to other shooters, unless I know them well, I'm convinced they will take as good of care of my stuff as I do, and even then I require them to give me a copy of their all-risk insurance policy. It's usually better business for me to only have my top-line equipment on sets that I'm also an above the line or below the line worker.

Interested to see what you're up to Jarred!

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.ocm

[Jay A. Kelley]

I own an SDX-900 and pull $600 per day for an simple B-Roll package and $800 per day for a package with audio.

Do not plan on renting out a RED without going along. That's my opinion. My personal guess is that I will be renting a RED package for around $900 per day to start. Please remember that while we all love the camera, it's not going to be "user friendly". By this I mean there will be so many damn choices as to how to shoot it, and what you want from it, that you will need to be there in order to keep things moving along.

Red will not be a very cheap rental. While the body may not be that expensive, the amount of stuff that will end up on it will be a pretty penny. Another point is that a lot of your clients are going to want HD Decks on set as back ups.. We may be ready to dump tape, but I do not expect others to be as quick.

One last thing: RED is going to be amazing at ANY resolution. Expect some SD clients to request a final master on MiniDV.. Don't laugh, just wait and seel

Jay

[penfever]

For all those interested in renting RED -
I'm also editing in LA right now, and have a red reserved.
I'm starting a website for RED rentals...I'm going to be putting it together in the coming months, got a domain so far...
I'm thinking if we all band together, we could use one page as a hub, so everybody eventually hears about "if you want to rent a red, go to this page - it has individuals from all over the country". We can create a calendar to show who has a camera available when, and we could use a standard rate for rentals, so people know what they're letting themselves in for.
Anyone who's interested can PM me - we could work something out together.

[khmuse]

Couldn't agree more. SDX-900's are renting for $400 a day now. For a package! I get $300/day for my DVX from one client when I bring it out. Now... why would I drop $50,000 building an SDX package ($17,000 body, $2000 viewfinder, $23000 lens, sticks, batts, monitor...) when it only nets a bit more than my $5000 DVX package?

Rental houses work off of quantity... they are Costco. Producers can always get a better deal from there compared to the little guys. It will be the same thing with Red.

Where are you finding SDX's for $400 a day in LA? I haven't seen a package (glass, finder, bricks, etc) for under $550. I would love to know as this is my favorite SD camera by a good margin. Care to share? (please!)

As for renting the RED, I am sure it will be at a bit of a premium at first, but if it becomes popular and enough of them are in the market place, it will fall in line, should be able to get around what a F900 or Varicam gets.

[Josch]

I was at a seminar by Band Pro here in Germany. Asked the guy what he thinks about the Red.
He said that if the Red delivers (and he has a reservation since NAB) , it will be the death of the rental houses as we know them.

Jochen

[khmuse]

I was at a seminar by Band Pro here in Germany. Asked the guy what he thinks about the Red.
He said that if the Red delivers (and he has a reservation since NAB) , it will be the death of the rental houses as we know them.

Jochen

As exciting as the Red is, I can't imagine that it will over turn the entire rental industry. It takes a lot more than a camera or even a camera and a few really cool pieces of glass to shot a film. The rental houses make money on a lot of items and I don't see any reason that they wouldn't add Red to their list of items that they offer.

[Jason Rodriguez]

As for renting the RED, I am sure it will be at a bit of a premium at first, but if it becomes popular and enough of them are in the market place, it will fall in line, should be able to get around what a F900 or Varicam gets.

Just curious, why should a RED cost as much to rent as a Varicam or F900 when it costs the end-user 1/3 to 1/5th the price of the camera body alone?

Unless you *all* band together and decide that you're not going to rent your RED's for less than $1K per day, somebody's going to purchase one and make a pretty penny renting for half your cost, and forcing your hand to reduce your price if you want to see your package working the streets. IMHO, if you're looking for appropriate rental rates, you need to be looking at the likes of SDX-900, XDCAM-HD, etc. packages and see where those prices are landing.

At $1K per day there's no incentive for rentals . . . a couple jobs would pay for a camera itself, which is kind of ironic since that's been the marketing message from RED, that it's such a great camera not only because of the specs, but because it's so 'cheap' compared to other high-end HD cameras that you could 'purchase it after a couple jobs'.

Frankly, if you're taking out a load for the camera (or leasing), you're looking at $500-700 per month for 3 years depending on how much you spent on accessories. If you decide to rent the camera for $1K per day that means per day you're paying for almost two months at a time. IMHO, that's way too high a rate to sustain . . . you may get that out the outset if you one of the first reservationists, but once the cameras start flowing out the door, you're not going to be able to sustain that, especially once the larger shops get them, or savvy users figure out that there's money to be had undercutting people milking their rental rates.

Again, I simply can't see how one can jusify a $35K package of RED camera, RED lens, and sticks renting for the same price as a $100K+ package of Sony F900, or Panasonic Varicam with a decent $30K HD zoom lens.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jason,

My goal as an owner operator is not to find a cheap item to rent a customer each day.. If it's not going to bring in money to feed family, I would not be interested in it. As for Renting RED out by itself, I would not know as I have no intention of letting my new born RED out of my sight.. What I can tell you is that while the camera may sell for not to much, my time will always be worth somthing.

For the record, I do not see the RED body renting for $1000.00 per day. More like $750-$850.00 A package (Body, sticks, tripod, battery,) would most likely be around $50 more..

BUT

What lens? What kind of capture device? If the client is supplying their own, all can stay cheap.. But if I do... That's another story.

This is going to be a tricky area in the world of RED.. While RED may do a fine job of makeing it's own items inexpensive, it is surrounded by the world of digital cinema where things are as expensive as they can get.

As I said earlier, what if they want an HD Deck on set? Sony's is $1,250 and Panasonic's is $600

Then there are those things extra to a package that RED will need:
Mattebox ($40)
Focus puller ($35)
Filters ($5 each)

Do you need an audio package? ($175)

All too often I come across clients who are looking for inexpensive first, and then professional quality all the way after.. I am fortunate that in my line of work I am able to avoid these people and let the larger rental houses work with them.. The clients that find me are the ones that must have a sellable, excellent product the first time, and they do not want to waste their time thinking about it.. They pay me to do that.

No Camera will be the death of the rental houses. That's because rental houses know what we know, most of their profit is made from everything AROUND the camera, not the camera itself.

I don't care if it's a DVX SDX HVX or IOU camera. They have ALL made beautiful pictures under the care of a DP who knew how to light for them.

As I look at my package, I don't worry about RED'S Picture.. I am excited about the new lighting possibilities that come with it.

You may all hate me for this, but starting out I plan to keep RED as an SD image... 480p all the way baby. Why? Perhaps cause I own an SDX-900 and we know that side by side, you can barely tell us from a Varicam. I am buying the RED so that I can GROW. I will not become an HD shooter overnight, and the way to make the camera profitable it to make sure that my clients can do whatever they want, HD or not.

Jay

[khmuse]

Man, I totally forgot about the IOU camera!

[zoostory]

I notice there is still a huge gap between working for video and working for film. My hope is that knowing how to work with RED footage and showing results will get me closer to editing a feature. Besides that it will be a real joy to work with super quality footage.

Eh, technically editing for film isn't all that complicated. Just have to keep track of your keycode in AVID or cinema tools. Odds are with red you'll do what a lot of people do with HD, Genesis Footage, and 35 anyway... downconvert to DV :) I don't see too many people editing rough cuts from online 2k footage in the near future, except maybe Walter Murch in his super editing farm. :)

[Clint Johnson]

It will take a while for most rental places to make the business decision to get Red Ones and then longer yet to actually get their cameras - so there will be a window where a person could rent out their camera for a good rate to help pay for the camera. Even when the rental outfits do have a quantity of Red Ones, there will be productions like Miami Vice that used at least six Vipers and the rental house was said to be out asking anyone if they had a Viper that they pass on to Mann. Rumor has it that at least one of those Vipers was damaged on set so make sure that your get a certificate of insurance before you hand it over to anyone.

Rental houses won’t stock more cameras then they can keep busy and so will probably be amenable to topping up with private units when the demand exceeds supply. Make friends with the people at the rental houses in your area. This will also help when you have to rent lenses and HD decks. Just guessing, you might want to ask $1500 a day while they are scarce and it will probably have to drop to the $650 a day as they become more common.

Personally I will be loath to part with Red351... see, by naming it I am already anthropomorphosizing it. I will love it and cherish it and I will in fact name it Red351. Sad really.

Production companies as a group do not like owning hardware. A $200 c-stand will last for decades but they will rent rather than own so I don’t think very many will be interested in buying a camera no matter how inexpensive it gets. The rental is written off immediately and for that one production while buying a hard asset is amortized out over years and multiple productions while it depreciates in value... and the accountants don’t like any of that. Some of the mid level indie companies will buy one and a smaller percentage of the really small ones (such as myself) will as well. Most everyone will rent or hire a DoP/Camera Op with their own camera.

Another place to build relationships with is your local sfx companies. Material captured 4K@4.4.4 would make life so much easier for a lot of the work they do and some of the smaller companies would be glad to rent one as needed rather than fork over the money for an in-house kit. Another benefit there is that they would probably want you to come with the camera rather than muddle through on a camera that they aren’t familiar with.

Big film productions in North America are usually union and if that is the case the production doesn’t really have the option of letting you run the camera. I’ve heard that IATSE has been fighting tooth and nail to keep even the DoP from operating the camera so I don’t think that they would look kindly at you running your camera. If you want to go with the camera you’d probably be better off targeting the independent shoots and try and make up with work days what you loose in day rate.

I’m looking at setting myself up with a Steadicam rig (well probably Glidecam V25 for monetary reasons) and the Red One as a ready-to-go rig where I can step out of the Jeep, suit up and start capturing footage. The hope is to carve out a niche as the guy to call when you need a high quality image and you need it in ten minutes. To that end I will be buying the lighter duty Glidecam Smooth Shooter in Los Angeles next month and practicing the hell out of it with my DVX100 while I wait for Red351... at which time I’ll move up to the heavier duty stabilizing rig and practice the hell out of that. I am under no delusion that this is an easy (or even rational?) path to follow but I’m going into it with my eyes wide open.

The decision is easier when there is no family to worry about and it is only myself who will be starving if I muck it up royally. Worst case scenario has me with a phenomenal camera to use on my own no-budget productions, while the best case scenario has me with a phenomenal camera to use on my own big budget productions.

No, actually the worst case scenario has me selling my friend Red351 to a less loving home... and that would be a truly sad day.

[Jay A. Kelley]

My Plan:

Capture RAW ; Color correct and downconvert to a good SD 4:2:2 signal.. Edit my heart out and sing happy songs
Jay

[Jarred Land]

when the demand exceeds supply.

I have a feeling this is gonna be more important than people realize. As the camera rolls out, and your number gets hit, you will suddenly be alot of people's best friends. You should be able to pay off the RED if you rent it out pretty solid in under 2 months.

[Gibby]

I have a feeling this is gonna be more important than people realize. As the camera rolls out, and your number gets hit, you will suddenly be alot of people's best friends. You should be able to pay off the RED if you rent it out pretty solid in under 2 months.

I think you nailed it there Jarred...

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com

[Jason Rodriguez]

Yes, I agree with you Jarred, but I still don't see why a $20K camera is going to rent for $850 a day like other people on this board are claiming . . . a $60K Varicam is $800 a day from most rental houses, and the $110K F950 Sony 444 camera rents for $1500-2K/day.

Now I can see an entire *package* around the RED going for $800/day with some good lenses, sticks, monitors, etc., but frankly, I think for the RED, a reasonable rate would be something on the scale of $400-500/day, 3 day weeks, etc., and then a la carte the accessories. A brand-new $20K XDCAM-HD is only $400/day from major rental houses.

Again, I know that people are saying, "Why should my 4K camera rent for the same rate as a XDCAM-HD camera", but unfortunately, they're the same price . . . while you might be able to charge a premium in the beginning, but I don't think you're going to be making any "friends" by that practice when people know you're simply using them for cash in the pocket, and quite a lot more than is reasonable for the price of the gear. Frankly, if that was me, I would only use someone like that as long as necessary, and be done with them the minute I find another outlet . . . and wouldn't recommend their services to anybody else. So acting in said manner I think won't profit in the long run, nor speaks positive about the character of that person. Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I'm not indicating that any individual on this board is going to extort people, but again, how can you justify a $20K camera body renting for more than other $20K camera bodies, and in fact renting for as much as $60-100K cameras simply by specs alone and NOT by the retail pricing of the camera.

In fact, the RED body isn't even $20K . . . it's $17.5K . . . quite a bit *cheaper* than XDCAM-HD (which is listing for $25K at B&H)!!!

[Samsun19]

Long time lurker / seldom poster.

What a great board this is, Thanks Jarred...

and thanks to all the contributers as well.


I have a feeling this is gonna be more important than people realize. As the camera rolls out, and your number gets hit, you will suddenly be alot of people's best friends. You should be able to pay off the RED if you rent it out pretty solid in under 2 months.

I hope your right.

Once production and deleivery start, how many cameras are delevered at first, and how fast they continue to come may play a big part on our ROI.

Do we have any info on the projected rollout of Red?

I can't help but wonder how much time difference there will be in delivery of the first 50 reserved Red's, as opposed to the last 50?

Sam Red #81

[Jarred Land]

Jason your not understanding how rental work.. its non linear. Abel rents a Varicam for $850 a day. They rent a HVX for $450 a day.. so you can see its not half the price for half the rental. They rent a SDX900 $40,000 package for $425.

Its not just based on cost. its bases on supply, and demand. Another thing you are not considering is that the Red camera is looking to shoot better quality then the frickin Genisis, Sony 900, Varicam, and Viper all put together.. so its gonna be pretty hot out of the gate..your gonna have people used to paying upto $2000 a day for those cameras looking to rent a red..

If its hard to understand all this take it out of a camera perspective.. Do a google on exotic car rentals. You will see that a $120,000 porsche will rent for 10x more than a $60,000 luxury "budget" rent a car.

[Jarred Land]

oh.. and since your #81 Jason.. this is all good news to you :)

[nalu]

what's the news Jarred??? :)

I can't help but read your posts and suspect that some news is coming about RED reservations being limited or a very slow production process
- both circumstances making rental of our RED rigs more attractive

do tell!!!!:dankk2:

just me guessing so shut me down if I'm wrong :Drogar-BlackEye(DBG

[Jarred Land]

lol nalu im not suggesting anything.. Even Apple has problems sometimes fufilling product demand at launch.. Every single camera released in the last 4 years by any company has taken them a few months to ramp up production.. you can only make things so fast. Im sure Jim and Red will do the best to get as many cameras out the door as fast as they can, but people with reservations are gonna get them first, nobody knows yet if those numbers are days or weeks between the two.

When it comes to Red I wouldn't assume anything.. things change by the hour.

[nalu]

lol

I think my evil fantasy is for reservations to be shut down so that us RED fathful can rule the world with our exclusive RED kits :Drogar-Love(DBG):

demanding high rental rates, picking and choosing jobs that encourage true artistic talent and demanding as onsite advisors a runner of exotic requests :Drogar-Evil(DBG):

sorry

couldn't help myself
:beer:

[Samsun19]

oh.. and since your #81 Jason.. this is all good news to you :)

Wait a minute....

I'm Red #81.....

Just try to pry that titanium R from my fingers.... :)

Sam Druckerman Red #81

[Anders Holck]

"Will the real red eighty one please stand up...."

[donatello]

i agree that when RED 1st hits the street it will bring a premium rental price .. at some point i think rental rates will be in line with Jasons numbers after enough of em are out there for rent ...
AND at that point IMO cineAlta, XDcam ,Varicams rental prices will head downward= demand will decide on final price..

i do not plan to rent out RED 103 on any commercial job .. when i go out as DP the production will rent a camera from rental house .. i only show up with light/color temp meters ...

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jarred what time tonight will you have the news you speak of?

Jay

[Jason Rodriguez]

Yeah, I'm not #81 . . . would be nice if I was, but I'm not even on the reserve list yet!

Just a bit depressing, since I am typically a renter (I don't have enough money to purchase a Varicam or F900 which I typically shoot with), to see that a RED package is going to cost as much as a F900 . . . so really no point in expecting the RED camera, I'm already paying the same costs now for HD gear.

Sure, the RED image might be "nicer", but frankly I can make great images with the F900 and custom gamma curves using the CVPFileEditor program from Sony to customize the response of the camera so it doesn't look like video.

Just making a note to anybody thinking of renting, that if you make the cost too high, there's no incentive to "jump" from established workflows . . . especially if there are quesitons on the workflow further down the line.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Sam is #81 Jarred... Common mistake.. Everyone gets those guys confused...
:)

Jay

[filmmaker1977]

Yeah, I'm not #81 . . . would be nice if I was, but I'm not even on the reserve list yet!

Just a bit depressing, since I am typically a renter (I don't have enough money to purchase a Varicam or F900 which I typically shoot with), to see that a RED package is going to cost as much as a F900 . . . so really no point in expecting the RED camera, I'm already paying the same costs now for HD gear.

Sure, the RED image might be "nicer", but frankly I can make great images with the F900 and custom gamma curves using the CVPFileEditor program from Sony to customize the response of the camera so it doesn't look like video.

Just making a note to anybody thinking of renting, that if you make the cost too high, there's no incentive to "jump" from established workflows . . . especially if there are quesitons on the workflow further down the line.hummm.. i know this guy from some place..

ah!.. now i know.. you are undercovered here as future red shooter..

by the way, as you are here among us.. that's your opportunity to speak up about your secrets.. silicon spy.. :)

i'd like to know what's your secret weapon to compete with red.. 2k for $12,500?.. Cineform 10-bit editing solution included?..

edit
my suggestion: announce it as soon as before 31th October.. :evil: only a joke.. but it'll work.. and your availability as ready from now since you can deliver during 2006..

[jaysedai]

I'm not even a a DoP or even an editor by trade (though I do my share of it). I'm a DVD Author mostly. But I love working with uber quality images, so I preorderd. My hope is to pay off my Red in about 3 months of rentals. Most or all of which I plan to tag along to keep an eye on my baby (bonus: what a great excuse to get involved in local productions).

Anybody have advise on how to know a production is fully insured?

Jeremy
Red #63

[laguun]

for us here the pricing in comparision to cinealta is interesting, as we are renting out our hdcam-packages quite often. if red fullfills, it will be probably a quite better camera, but somewhat cheaper regarding the body, so do we price it above or below the cinealta... this question is puzzling us :)

anyhow, for a full-feature-movie-rental-package, the camerabody itself is often only ~20-40% of the whole set price, when we rent out a typically equipped package with 2 zoom lenses and/or a prime lenses set, 1 class 1 crt setmonitor, measurement gear from tektronix / astro, chrosziel mattebox, remote focus, colorviewfinder, tripod, 4-12 batteries, some radiotransmitters for sound/image/lensoperation, tripod, 9´HD-monitor, quickcharger, cases, softbags & raincovers... such a package can easily surpass $200.000-300.000, even with red it would still be in the range of $150.000-250.000. On the other hand, if the team wants to shoot 4K or even 2540p, storage and i/o for several 10.000$ would also have to be part of the calculation.

[Doc Holliday]

Oh my goodness. I made a post that really has legs!

Thanks guys for all the input!!

[Jarred Land]

I'm not even a a DoP or even an editor by trade (though I do my share of it). I'm a DVD Author mostly. But I love working with uber quality images, so I preorderd. My hope is to pay off my Red in about 3 months of rentals. Most or all of which I plan to tag along to keep an eye on my baby (bonus: what a great excuse to get involved in local productions).

Anybody have advise on how to know a production is fully insured?

Jeremy
Red #63

just ask to see the papers.. and phone the number of the insure company on it if you doubt it.

[Jason Rodriguez]

hummm.. i know this guy from some place..

ah!.. now i know.. you are undercovered here as future red shooter..

by the way, as you are here among us.. that's your opportunity to speak up about your secrets.. silicon spy.. :)

Hey Filmmaker,

Well, I wouldn't really call myself a Silicon "spy" . . . at the heart of it all I'm a working professional, and I shoot, edit, do some directing, do post-production compositing and graphics, etc. Of course I'm helping design the SI camera, but frankly, these are all tools, and I can see very clearly that for myself to maintain my edge in the field I have to embrace, know, and understand all things, including RED. For me to conclude that RED won't at some point be a tool I'll have to work with when I'm in the trenches would be absolutely foolish and would limit my ability to tackle jobs and produce the best product for the client which is what I'm after. If the client wants me to use a RED on his/her job, I better have some idea what's going on or else I'm gonna get passed by for the person that is willing to be flexible and evolve. So sure, I'm gonna hang around here and pipe up from time-to-time because I want to be as smart and well-rounded as possible . . . I'm not going to stick my head in the sand. My main experience has been with the Sony F900, I use Varicam sometimes (I prefer the Sony), I'm helping develop the SI camera and the workflows surrounding that camera, and yeah, I'll use a RED if somebody wants me to-do that as well . . . to me they're all tools to get the job done.

I'm just noting here that from what I've experienced on the rental market, if you price this stuff too high, expecting to pay it off in one or two months, you're either going to leave a bad taste in people's mouths and not make the connections you intend, or you're just going to make the effort to market a new workflow that other people might not be willing to part with compared to something that already works and is tried and true technology (and doesn't create BAD images . . . it's probably 80-90% of what the RED would be, especially once it's downconverted to HD resolutions).

For instance, using custom curves I can make the F900 "look like film", and I've seen plenty of examples of the F900 "looking like film". Sony's been doing demos to the same effect for years, and I've been to one-too-many panels where a DP gets up and says, "this looks like film", or a director says, "I'm never going back to film". Once you look like film, you look like film . . . so why would I pay MORE or EQUAL to RED to ge the same "look like film"? Heck, for those rates why don't I just shoot film? Or more importantly, if I'm working for a technophobe producer who's not quite ready to jump into everything brand new, why would they dump the well proven F900 for RED when it costs just as much, and they'll get the same "film look" in the end? So now instead of people going to you defacto because you're cheaper AND better, you now have to prove why you're better, and basically market yourself. Sure there's buzz, but when it comes down to it, you're creating more work for yourself because buzz won't carry you through when producers are drawing up budgets and seeing that they're not saving anything. It's the same fight that we're going through to ween people off film to HD in the commercial market . . . producers don't see the point . . . they can afford 35mm or 16mm, and HD costs just as much (for short commercial shoots) and isn't "film". In television and movies they can see they get the same for less, but in commercials, they simply don't see the point, and hence you gotta shoot film for mid-to-high-end commerical work (most of the time).

So now you throw RED into the equation . . . first question from an Ad Agency is "what is it"? Then, "how does it look (compared to film)"?. Then "how much"? "What do I do with my files"? "Where is my reel at the end of the day"? "Where do I backup my files"? "Where do I edit it"? "What the heck is REDCODE?", etc., etc. At the end of the day, once they see your high rental prices, there's no point . . . they have to spend effort learning, and since their competition isn't flooding to this gear and passing them by, they're going to be more concentrated and concered with pushing product out the door rather than trying experiments with their clients money.

I understand Jarred's point that the rental market isn't linear. Sure. But some of you who are seeing $$$ signs in the rental market need to keep in mind that you can easily price yourself out of a rental . . . when I go to rentals from individuals I expect *cheaper* than what I'd get from Otto or Birns and Sawyer, or Bexel, VER, etc.-Individuals who give me sticker shock I never rent from (I've known some locally who thought they could do that since they were the only ones in town, and they eventually had to sell off their gear because people refused their service). These small guys can't overnight me a new camera if something goes wrong, they can't provide tech support the way I'd need if something actually breaks (typically), there's no spare parts, the gear is typically not calibrated on complicated test equipment, etc. So I don't mind paying more for an established company that has staff their for me any minute of the day with well calibrated gear, equipment, replacements, etc. Throwing a camera in someone's lap and saying "Here you go, where's my money" is not the way to run a rental shop, especially if you're charging just as much or MORE than an established, reliable rental company.

Just my .02 cents. I could be completely wrong about the whole thing.

[mavrix]

It seems to me that the RED will find its niche in the rental market the way every other camera does. People still use computer programs that are 10 years old in some industries because they are comfortable with the process and efficient with it - and there will always be cost/benefit analysis. Subsequently there will be people adopting Red's right away and there will be those still using 5 year-old technology because they have a system and process that works for them.

I own many different camera's and have 5 Reds reserved as well -- Running an HD Post House, I like many of you am constantly dealing with the technology learning curves and the time dedicated to them and the fun job of mixing different types of footage - (eg many now using XDCAM's as B Camera's for F900's) I'm interested and excited to see how the Reds will fit into this equation - but there will be a learning curve -- and I would be reluctant to rent a Red package out without being fully comfortable with knowing that there is an effective post process already in place. EG Sony released with XDCAM without proper support or software already on the market for import. So I rented an XDCAM out to a production and then found myself having to help the client import from camera rather than through the import software as it was restricted in bit rate that way which was undesirable to them.

But I will say from my own experience in renting my camera packages that it has been far more profitable for us being able to be involved in the post on them as well. It's a nice luxury for our clients of all sizes to be able to rent the camera package, shoot, bring us the tapes, blueray, drives, P2's etc. and get a G-RAID drive with an offline ready to edit. But obviously it takes significantly more capital up-front to manage a business like this.

Regardless, I believe there is going to be a ramp-up time for the technology to become comfortable for the full-spectrum of broadcasters, cable networks, etc. who have to know how to QA it as it comes in and are really now only becoming comfortable D5, and HDCAM Masters. I still find myself educating cable network teams, and production companies on how and why HD might be better than film for certain types of projects.

Just my 1 cent...

[filmmaker1977]

Hey Filmmaker,

Well, I wouldn't really call myself a Silicon "spy" . . . just a joke.. :) you know.. i send all the kUdOs for your work..

i'm hoping to see your SI product as soon as you get.. maybe as your customer.. at least, as rental shooter without any doubts.. i'd like to test it.. i'm waiting.. only it's not easy to convince my partners to go also with another brand besides red.. i was sorry for your silence.. it's very difficult to support your offer to others when red is so aggressive with its marketing..

and you have been silent.. also because the people have FEAR what will be your resistance after the red launch and its real enter into the market.. even if the sales will drop to majors like sony, panasonic, jvc, canon..

but who knows?.. nevertheless, keep us tuned.. thx

edit
i'm glad to read you here too..

[Jason Rodriguez]

Well, patience will be rewarded in due time . . . realize though that we see the current SI-mini camera and RED as complimentary products, not competition per se.

For instance, the SI-mini is so small with it's little c-mount lenses you can put it in a number of locations you will never get your RED with it's 35mm lens requirements. It's also rugged as hell . . . you'll break the lens long before you break the camera . . and the recorder is far away from the camera head, meaning if you do decide to crash the camera, you'll get all the footage up to the very last second the camera was working. Basically don't break your RED, break our cameras, and then purchase some more! ;)

Also despite the "breakthrough workflows" that RED is advertising, I still find Cineform RAW to be a much more straight forward and elegant approach to shooting and ingesting RAW straight into the edit system, and then editing and working with the original RAW camera data all the way to the end export. REDCODE RAW has to go through a conversion stage first in REDCINE before being used by an editing system. That could take you a while. And since the Cineform RAW codec is now fully 32-bit floating point aware from start to finish, there's never any clipping of data in the RAW image codec, unless you pass it through a non-floating point compliant filter, render it to another non-floating-point codec, or pass it through a program that doesn't support 32-bit float. But you can go to formats like OpenEXR, etc. from Cineform RAW and maintain the full floating point pipeline, so no data is ever clipped, even in color correction.

Last year we were going to release the SI product with a similiar workflow to how RED is proposing to handle RAW data. We had our own proprietary RAW format and a nice converter like REDCINE which would convert our RAW data format to other common file formats, but after shooting a couple test films in that manner, we found out that workflow simply can't be done in a practical manner, which led us to back-track VERY QUICKLY and jointly develop Cineform RAW with David Newman and the gang over at Cineform. Cineform RAW is a powerful combination of learning from various mistakes, seeing where the roadblocks are, and finding ways around the problems of how to manage RAW data through the ENTIRE post pipeline with an awesome wavelet codec. And the nice thing is that it's very extensible with more improvements coming.

I'm sure David Newman would be happy to chime in about this and explain further if you ask him either here or over on the DVinfo boards. There's also a white-paper on our website or on the Cineform website.

But anyways, enough about SI and Cineform RAW on this forum. Again, I'm primarily here to learn and make myself a more rounded individual . . . I'm not one to let my head get stuck in the sand.

[Jarred Land]

Yeah, I'm not #81 . . . would be nice if I was, but I'm not even on the reserve list yet!

yeah.. i know.. it was a bad joke making fun of you being from Silicon Imaging. The fact that you a came into another camera's forum with your badge turned around and trying to cause a rucuss was a little shady :)

ha ha ha ha ha... but no worries... you came clean at the tail with a nudge from filmmaker, and now everyone knows who you are so people understand the bias.. so welcome :)

[donatello]

if one reads the SI thread then you know Jason & his association with SI -his question on RED vs. CineAlta rental rates are not out of ordinary ...
anyway are we suppose to tell all who we have consulted or worked with before we post questions or answer ?
i would think that most in the film/video business are interested in how RED is going to do it all ... and seeing how DVXuser & DVinfo members/poster support RED this is the place to come for info ...

[Jarred Land]

ha ha yes of course donatello.. its all discussion.. and thats why i made a joke instead of something negative towards Jason... we all have used the competition here.. some of us have worked directly with the competition, and 99% of us, well, just really dont give a rats ass who works where.... we just want the best damn camera we can afford.

[imgentertainment@mac]

all you guys wanting to rent stuff.. ive got a big surprise to make your life alot easier coming (hopefully) tonight.

Whats this Jarred you speak of?? A DVXuser Rental network???

[filmmaker1977]

Well, patience will be rewarded in due time . . . realize though that we see the current SI-mini camera and RED as complimentary products, not competition per se.agreed.. i hope so..

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jarred you said you had something to announce last night...

Well? Did I miss it?

Jay

[donatello]

to be clear & upfront i do not like premiere !

adding a little more info to Jasons info on cineform and workflow of SI camera ( based on my experience with 10 bit cineform clips - not RAW cineform) ... i believe the way Jasons describes only works on one NLE and that is Premiere with cineform prospect HD ... cineform prospect HD only works with premiere and after effects which one could do pretty much anything to their project .. but not everybody will choose premiere ..so for those that do not choose premiere and want to stay in 10bit they would have to take the 10bit 4:2:2 clips and drop them into premiere or AE and then render out to new 10/16bit clip ( provided they have a 10/16 bit codec) ..
cineform does offer a free codec to read files but it only works in 8 bit ( host program drops 2 bits) and as far as i know even if you have prospect HD (10bit)installed you only get 10 bit in premiere and AE - so if you use Avid it will read the cineform clips 8bits using cineform codec..
i do not know what you can do with RAW cineform clips used in software outside of premiere and AE with propect HD - i suspect you loose the beneifts of ( prospect engine )working with RAW ??
for those working in 2k one would need to buy prospect HD with 2k package ...
i have no clients nor do i know anybody that uses Premiere so anything shot on a SI camera the client would have to buy propect HD & premiere and render out new 10 bit clips for their Avids or the camerapersons ( with SI ) would have to render them out for client ?
i do know that cineform will be offering a QT solution - but i don't know if that is a similar engine that is installed in FCP or the clips are QT and doesn't carry the RAW advantages with it? i'm sure Jason or David can answer that?
i currently have a short project that was shot on film and scanned 2k using cineform codec ..i render out of AE to microcosm 16 bit codec so i could retain the 10 bit info to use the clips in combustion,avid ... i then take the micro clips and make a low res proxy to edit so i add 2 extra steps because i choose not to use premiere -

"Cineform RAW to be a much more straight forward and elegant approach to shooting and ingesting RAW straight into the edit system, and then editing and working with the original RAW camera data all the way to the end export"

for me it all sounds elegant until i see the " premiere "..then i think work arounds ...

will the QT product keep the data raw thru out the process ?

[Nick_Shaw]

It seems to me that REDCODE, coming as it does in RAW, 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 flavours is an alternative to Cineform, not complementary to it. Since Quicktime supports more that 8-bits without the workaround that Cineform uses, I would assume that any QT application could work with REDCODE at full 10-bit precision.

Whether and how exactly applications like FCP and Shake could access the 'extra' information in REDCODE RAW I guess only Graeme (ok and probably Jim and the others) really knows! He keeps hinting at more workflow surprises, so I'm eagerly waiting to hear.

[khmuse]

To be up front, I do like Premiere! Specifically, I like the interoperability between PPro, AE and all the other Adobe products. That said, I am certain that work flow solutions for most all popular NLEs are essential steps that will be addressed.

From what I have read, Redcode sounds like a very flexible solution and I am certain that the Red team is very aware of the necessity to support a wide variety of post work flows.

[dan]

Just stumbled across this page (btw on the thread's subject):
http://www.indierentals.com/cameras.html
Funny how a rental fee is made up and posted months ahead...(no lens or other accessories included though)
Cheers,
Dan

[Jason Rodriguez]

will the QT product keep the data raw thru out the process ?

Yes, same workflow that we currently have now, just Quicktimes instead of AVI's . . . so "Premiere" will not necessarily be the limitation in the near future. I do know that the interface on the QT's will be a bit different in how you interact with them because of the way the QT API works, but the fundatmental technology remains the same, with the same transparent RAW workflow from camera to post. The only limitation will be whether the application you're using the QT's in is deep-pixel aware (i.e., can process greater than 8-bits). So Mac, PC, etc. will not be a limitation.

Also Cineform RAW is an RGB 4:4:4 decode with 32-bit float internal processing of the metadata color information, just in case anybody was wondering.

[Jason Rodriguez]

Not trying to start a flame . . . just found a website with RED rental rates more in-line with what I was assuming they would be given the price of the base body:

http://indierentals.com/cameras.html

This probably won't include the cages, rails, etc., but again, seems more "realistic" to me.

Just curious if they will keep their prices :)

[Gibby]

Post #58, two posts before yours, has the same link...

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com

[Jason Rodriguez]

Sorry, my fault, I missed that . . . I had to dig up the thread and didn't realize there was another post before my other QT one.

Thanks for the pointer :)

They do look like they'll be a good deal for RED rentals though . . . has anyone else on this list ever rented from them? Do they provide good service/support?

[Eric MacIver]

You caught us :)

I'm the owner of Indie Rentals, so, although I'm active in another forum, this looked like the perfect opportunity to introduce myself to this one.

As for the rental rate I posted, I do expect to include at least a shoulder mount or cage (depending on price) and still keep that number unless everyone else on the planet is much higher than that. We have a low price gaurantee on all of our equipment, so I try to make sure my prices are in line with our target customer - the indie filmmaker.

Suffice to say that if the Red does what I expect it to do, we will gear most of our rental packages around it as we will strive to be the number one Red rental house, both in terms of equipment and experience. (I'm a working DP and I'll be using these on my projects as well).

I've already purchased two of the 9.2MP monitors for demos, along with a lot of support equipment. (Jim - please send me some 4k footage when it's ready so I can show my customers).

Anyway, I'll stop myself there. That's enough promotion. I'm here if you have any questions.

Jason - you guys have a great looking camera I'm keeping my eye on as well. I've already spoken to your sales team.

[Jarred Land]

Welcome Eric.. glad to have you here. Please take a look at our commercial signature policy though, I dont want you to get in trouble right off the start. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=70433

the 9.2 monitors are great.. let me know if you have been able to get them to refresh past 13 frames a second.

[Eric MacIver]

Doh! - Thanks Jarred. Sorry about that... Just copied my sig over from the other forum.

Anyway, when my monitors and video cards arrive, I'll let you know. The Matrox Parhelia H256 cards are supposed to do 41 frames, but we'll see...

Also, if anyone wants those monitors, you may still be able to contact the seller. Ebay had used, but gauranteed working units for $1k each. Auction #330028760083.

[stokestack]

Whether and how exactly applications like FCP and Shake could access the 'extra' information in REDCODE RAW I guess only Graeme (ok and probably Jim and the others) really knows!

That'll depend on how the codec converts the raw data into a pixel format these apps handle. Shake uses 16-bit RGB for any QuickTime that has more than 8 bits, which will be nice because Red is RGB. FCP works in YUV, so there'll have to be a conversion to that color space. The question is how to map the dynamic range into these color spaces.

QuickTime is not flexible in deciding what to do with out-of-scale values. For example, when going from YUV to RGB in QuickTime, you lose superwhite data (values higher than those equivalent to 235 in 8-bit) because there's simply no way to tell QuickTime to map the entire 0-255 scale into the RGB image.

I imagine that those kinds of limitations will be the main challenge. One problem is that QuickTime-client applications typically present codec options when writing, but not reading. If you open a QT file in an application, the application queries QT to find a codec that matches the one specified in the file. Then it reads the file with it. Red may have to provide some little "control panel" app that sets options that the codec component can refer to at decode time; this would be to give users options on how to use the dynamic range, to bias the decoding with an adjustable dynamic-range-compression curve.

[Zak Forsman]

They do look like they'll be a good deal for RED rentals though . . . has anyone else on this list ever rented from them? Do they provide good service/support?
I certainly have. Indie Rentals was recommended to me by one of their regular customers. and i just wanted to publicly say that Eric and the guys at Indie Rentals are running an outstanding operation and I recommend their outfit to anyone. About a month ago, I told Eric I was looking to rent a P2 Store for a month of production on my feature White Knuckles. it was 5pm on a friday when i made the rental order. He didn't have one available so he went out and bought one so I could start renting it on Monday morning.

it's been performing flawlessly, by the way, eric.

[ZaneIsNumber1]

all you guys wanting to rent stuff.. ive got a big surprise to make your life alot easier coming (hopefully) tonight.
What was it? Is it still coming or did I miss something?

[Anders Holck]

QuickTime is not flexible in deciding what to do with out-of-scale values. For example, when going from YUV to RGB in QuickTime, you lose superwhite data (values higher than those equivalent to 235 in 8-bit) because there's simply no way to tell QuickTime to map the entire 0-255 scale into the RGB image.

QuickTime has an API that the client application can utilize to choose the level mapping. Both Final Cut Pro and After Effects implement options on how you want the levels to be mapped when converting to RGB.
Eg. in After effects there is a checkbox to choose between white and superwhite for YUV sources...

[visceralpsyche]

What was it? Is it still coming or did I miss something? I'm not sure it has been mentioned, but my guess would be that Red will have an online database of cameras and locations on their website, and whether they are available for rent or not, with links to contact info if they are. This would mean that a client could search for all cameras in Australia for example, and if both of us have uploaded our details then we both show up in the contact list. Would seem logical to have one central location for such info as it makes the clients' search much easier and our advertising costs much lower: "Want to rent a Red? Go to RED.com and get connected right away."

BTW Red Team, if this WASN'T what you were planning, but you think it's a good idea, feel free to run with it. I think it would be a great solution to those of us wanting to rent our cameras out and I'm sure others will agree.

[Eric MacIver]

i just wanted to publicly say that Eric and the guys at Indie Rentals are running an outstanding operation and I recommend their outfit to anyone.

Thanks Zak! I hope you're getting great footage :)

[icorptv]

khmuse, since you asked, I'll rent you my SDX900 for $350 a day. Includes camera, VF, lens, tripod, batteries.

http://www.icorptv.com/sdx900_rental.html

Red #354

[khmuse]

I am very interested. What glass and sticks do you have for the SDX and what would your weekly rate be?

[icorptv]

kmuse,

I sent you a private message, since this is off-topic.

Greg

[Denis Haineault]

Just out of curiosity, what is the "usual" method for rental houses to protect themselves when renting out equipment? Must customers come with some kind of insurance policy?

BTW, I'm new to this and have never rented equipment, so I have no clue

[Zak Forsman]

usually, renters can either buy insurance from the rental house or (what i do) insure your production and have your agent at the insurance company issue certificates to the companies you rent from.

[Jason Rodriguez]

Who do you purchase insurance through, and how much does it typically cost?

[Zak Forsman]

We go through Film Emporium Insurance (http://www.filmemporium.com/insurance.html). $1,000,000 in coverage for 30 days is about $1800. if you go over 30 days and need to extend your insurance its $350-ish per day.

[GabrielR]

From their web site:

Available in all 50 States.

Eligible Productions

To be eligible for Short Term Production Insurance, the production must:
1. Have a budget less than $300,000;

2. Shoot only in the US or Canada;

3. Not have Stunts, Pyrotechnics, Aircrafts, Boats, Animals, Fight Scenes, Blanks, Squibs, Guns, Live Gangster Rap Music


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