New Sony Cinealta camera NGC 23

[Sony FX1 User]

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/9644/115774220c9.jpg
Cost 200K

[Ivanhurba]

It´s a bargain... 200k. May RED beat it to electronic dust.

[MojoTrancer]

The dinosaur plods around, while little mammals wait for the asteroid to hit... :evil:

[filmmaker1977]

cheap..

[Barry_Green]

The dinosaur plods around, while little mammals wait for the asteroid to hit... :evil:

Oh, now that's interesting. Yes, I think RED should adopt a small mammal as its none-too-subtle mascot.

[Mr. Blonde]

Cine Alta = Dead.

Viva RED.

[Joe_Digital]

They're only three or four years behind. And stupidly expensive. What's the word...cost prohibitive?

[Jack_Felis]

What is it exactly? 1080P? 2K? 4K? 4:4:4? I realize the RED has killed this camera's thunder, but what features does it have to warrant the price?

[Ivanhurba]

Jack, i´ll tell you the features... It´s heavy, full of holes for cables like engineers love and expensive to keep newbies with empty pockets away from the game... And of course you always have this thing... it´s a S.O.N.Y!

[Ronin Cam]

Like my boss says: SONY

Soon Only Not Yet

[Joe_Digital]

I think you can almost make out the HD SR logo on the tape device. It is more or less a 950 with the SR tape transport. AFAIK it is 4:4:4 2K 1080P, so yeah, RED is well beyond.

[Simon Wyndham]

I am not sure why Sony are bothering with this camera in light of Red to be honest. By comparison it really does look like an ancient 1960's television tube camera in comparison. I'd make a fair bet there were some false smiles going on when the Red demo was viewed.

It will be very interesting to see how this game plays out.

[tlorenzo]

Maybe they're in denial and still thinking the guys from RED can't pull it off?

[Simon Wyndham]

No, I doubt that. They don't like the idea of Red, I know that much.

[imgentertainment@mac]

What is that thing. Is that a camera? What happened? That looks like a camera that is lying in a box in the back of the studio and hasn't been used in years.

[Christopher Barry]

I'll take the sticks and head, for my new _ _ _. :D

[AshG]

Well the HDCAM-SR workflow is currently viable and the camera exists. Also, dont forget that Sony is also a STUDIO... this camera may have a short lifespan but at $200K, that may not matter. Could be a good camera for broadcast work as well. Still odd though...


ash =o)

[Noel Evans]

There has to be more to it at the technical end than that. Im not dissing red at all here but I am asking for $200k if RED is beyond then where is the extra money being spent in this?

[Joe_Digital]

The costs are related to the obscene R&D Sony put into the technology over the years, but sat on it for too long saying producers and filmmakers are happy with the F900 so why bother to get better? The company has also kept way too many fat cats in redundant positions for a very long time...quoting such a price for people who can afford and want it now -I guess it's their money.

I personally see F900's having no choice but to go WAAY down once RED starts shipping.

[nycfilmmaker]

This is a bit too pricey -- Unless there's something SONY is not releasing that we should know about.

Ok, Red starts at 17.5K for the body alone. The drive and other mentioned and unmentioned things will make RED hit close to 35k to 45K without the lense -- not talking about third party hardware, just internal RED components. Unlike the HVX-200 which costs 5.5K but racked up to over 10K at times with THIRD party hardware add ons, taking that p2 cards make up 2k.

Are all Red add-ons proprietary (?) like the drive that has to accommodate 4k footage and not needing a van to carry it around? Curious to know the outcome in the details from RED. IF it is what it states it is as a complete package, than I'm sold.

Also, it will be very interesting to see how they will dethrone Viper, CineAlta, Varicam in one swoosh. This we will not know until all physical pieces of RED are released to the public. If it is what they advertised in price, quality and modulinity, again as a complete package, we will see some great indirect responses by the big dogs. Panasonic is a very savy company, we'll see who will be at the top when RED debuts.

I love options. Competition stimulates innovation with the consumer coming out the winner.

[Jarred Land]

ha ha ha.. poor Sony.

[Neil Rowe]

i think they should change its name to "cinedebajo". ..very soon it wil be more fitting.

[OldCorpse]

Yes, but let's not forget a few things. RED will not be available for quite some time yet. There won't even be prototypes until around the end of the year, early next year. And from prototype to production is a long road yet. There are inevitable delays. That can easily - EASILY - put it mid 2007. Add in a few technical glitches in the first production run, and realistically you are looking at a purchasable product not much before this time next year. That's a full year for Sony to sell their ready to go camera. Like it or not, there will be plenty of those who simply cannot wait a year, and who have no intention of taking a chance on a totally new product like RED, when the entire workflow with the Sony is tried and true. RED would have to be on a second edition, and proving itself all the way through post with a fully worked out and workable workflow for such customers to switch. That is again probably another year. At this point you are at 2 years mark of selling the Sony before they have to worry about RED *given the market segment* Sony is targetting with this. Remember, for those customers, where mega millions are at play on a project, an extra $150K for the Sony (compared to RED) is peanuts, and they'll pay without batting an eye. Thus, it will be a full TWO YEARS of selling this "dinosuar" before Sony even has to look in the direction of RED. Not to mention, I'm sure Sony thinks/hopes/expects that RED will have a ton of problems getting to market, establishing itself in the full workflow, establishing reliable support networks etc. All this costs Sony nothing but accrues to their advantage, with a mature product and huge support infrastructure and resources (financial, R&D etc.). There are many ways RED has a chance to fail. Sony is already here, and well established... the advantages of being the incumbent, the known quantity, the "brand". Worry not, they'll have their customers who will happily pony up $$$ for their dinasaur products.

Which doesn't take away from the fact that Sony is a remarkably short-sighted company with stupid strategies. Planned obsolescence, feature hogging, product crippling, endless marketing triangulation etc. They act like they can dictate the terms in a changing world. Shows utter contempt for the customer. And customers increasingly resist and resent that. I certainly do - given a chance I always pass on a Sony product if I can get equivalent stuff from another brand.

[Fugitive]

OldCorpse nailed it. I was thinking the same thing about Silicon. At a first glance, one might think the Silicon guys would now "have" to lower their prices etc. But on a second thought, not really. Red still has time to appear officially in the game. Silicon have a product right here right now. So, they are going to still have the advantage of being able to sell their products at the given price to people who cant wait, while Red develops.

All in all, competition is always good for the consumer!

[Kyle Stebbins]

Like my boss says: SONY

Soon Only Not Yet

hahahahahaha! so true. :thumbsup:
one of my instructors had an unhealthy obsession with sony. we had a huge arguement over cineframe (sony) and 24p (panny) -- honestly. the names of the two settings alone make it so effing obvious.

"what framerate did you shoot that in?"
"oh, cinemframe 24"
"... um... what?"

personally, i dont feel sony has quite captured the feel of 24p on its consumer pro cameras. im not impressed in the least. long live panasonic and red.
:beer:cheers! -kyle

[J.R. Hudson]

With SONY Pictures distroing the following

http://www.imdb.com/company/co0047439/

something tells me their cameras won't be going the way of the DoDo anytime soon

[Mack Fisher]

I think when it comes down to it Sony's cineatla line will get more use than RED for the time being. Sony has a reputation a mile long for quality with the f900 and f950 for digital cinema. Yes RED can shoot 4K but they are brand new and I altough DVXuser has accepted it you can make the same gerneralization for the rest of the film industry.

[J.R. Hudson]

Dvxuser is not an individual Mack. Many here have accepted it, but many still question it and many seem apathetic as it may just be out of their range.

Everyone is so pumped on Red (and should be if they deliver) but I wonder why no one talks about Cinealta, Viper, Genesis, Dalsa, D20, Varicam and Silicon Imaging

...

These cameras are not going extinct anytime soon and are constantly being upgraded and expanded upon. The workflows are different of course and some of those will need an alterantive eventually but the digital revolution is already being fought on the battlefield while Red sits in development.

I wonder if Red will be the 'Fat Man / Little Boy' of the digital war.

(That was a lame analogy)

[Draccan]

[deleted by user]

[Mack Fisher]

I didnt me to downplay DVXuser's role in the digital industry. It just seems like everyone expects sony to get crapped on by RED and loose all their buisness. Although 4k is nice is it still long away from being any sort of standard, and as well I apluad RED I myself dont think I am ready for 4k.

I almost find it at biased because everyone is dragging Sony's name through the mud like a sick joke that they would release another CineAlta camera while RED just came out with 4k, no one is making fun of Panasonic for releasing the HDX900 or JVC for not even breaking in the 1080i industry yet. But dont get me wrong I have the utmost respect for DVXuser, its members, and RED.

[J.R. Hudson]

Nice post. I did not think (or mean to imply anything). Just clarifying that we were not all one giant shill.

I agree with Mack and Draccan.

[TimurCivan]

Cine alta stil makes a mighty mighty mighty fine picture. dont forget that. it may be a dinosaur, but honestly.... id be pumped if i had the pleasure of shooting on it.

[MojoTrancer]

I don't doubt that RED will make a big difference in the industry. But it is still a while before it hits the mainstream. That's the part that gets me down. Plus that $17,500 price is still a bit high for a lot of people. Myself included.

Sony probably has similar technology to the RED just sitting around. They just haven't released it because they had an existing product line to protect. But that may change after RED because they have no choice. But i don't see them lowering their prices. There's always the perceived value thing. And the big studios have no problem with dropping that kind of cash.

[Rocketeer]

To be fair to Sony this camera was being displayed at NAB 06 and whisper room meetings were been held for feedback on the design. It will be available for sale prior to NAB 07.

The camera itself is based on the HDC-1500 head
http://www.expandore.com/product/sony/Proav/model/HD/HD_Cam_15.htm
Married up with the SRW1.

The Genesis is based on the 950. It is rumored that Panavision have Sony over a barrel with regard to releasing a 35mm sensor camera, a non development clause which was part of the Genesis project. Sony's work around is the release of NGC-23 which rumor also has it, Panavision are'nt particularly happy about.

Comparing apples with apples and the only other apple in the orchard that you can buy is the Viper. The Viper also requires some exspensive recording options S2 HDD system, SRW1 or Venom packs. You can't buy an Arrri D-20, Dalsa or Genesis.

Price-wise that does put the NGC-23 in good company. Workflow is established and supported by any post-house that has a HDCAM-SR VTR. Engineering support is available from any Sony specialist backed up by Sony.

And it records to tape. People are comfortable with tape. Take tape out, dub tape put tape on shelf.

This camera will have a market, just as I'm sure Thomson will continue to sell the Viper. RED will not change that. It will just add another choice.

[Mack Fisher]

Very nice post Rocketeer, thanks for all the info.

[SPZ]

To be fair to Sony this camera was being displayed at NAB 06 and whisper room meetings were been held for feedback on the design. It will be available for sale prior to NAB 07.

The camera itself is based on the HDC-1500 head
http://www.expandore.com/product/sony/Proav/model/HD/HD_Cam_15.htm
Married up with the SRW1.

The Genesis is based on the 950. It is rumored that Panavision have Sony over a barrel with regard to releasing a 35mm sensor camera, a non development clause which was part of the Genesis project. Sony's work around is the release of NGC-23 which rumor also has it, Panavision are'nt particularly happy about.

Comparing apples with apples and the only other apple in the orchard that you can buy is the Viper. The Viper also requires some exspensive recording options S2 HDD system, SRW1 or Venom packs. You can't buy an Arrri D-20, Dalsa or Genesis.

Price-wise that does put the NGC-23 in good company. Workflow is established and supported by any post-house that has a HDCAM-SR VTR. Engineering support is available from any Sony specialist backed up by Sony.

And it records to tape. People are comfortable with tape. Take tape out, dub tape put tape on shelf.

This camera will have a market, just as I'm sure Thomson will continue to sell the Viper. RED will not change that. It will just add another choice.

And about the tape thing... Basically with the camera you are getting a 2+1 option. If you are a studio, if you putrchase this camera, you're basically purchasing an HDCAM SR deck too.

[Fugitive]

Agreed. Usually excitement over one product leads to bad-mouthing the other. It doesnt have to be that way.

I am excited about RED as well as Silicon. As many have already pointed out, I dont think the giants are going to sit by and watch while RED develops. Whatever their strategyy turns out to be, it can only be better for the consumer. And we simply have to give credit to the new guys for that.

(Terminator 4!!! Give me a break, puhleeez!)

[Nik Manning]

I think that red is currently looked at as a replacement for filmmakers who would have shot Super 16. Basically indies that have under 5 million budget. the new sony is looked at as a 35mm replacement/substitute even thou less resolution. Red does have a incredible market strategy and will effect pricing of future cams that come out.
Alot of people speculate that red cannot do it cause the big boys can't. that is crap big boys can but won't. Just like the patent that was sold to a tire company for tires that don't go flat. We will never see that product. No money in cures, just let them live with the sickness. Red seems like the cure!

[Simon Wyndham]

Well, I think the flat tire thing, and the reasons behind it, are probably more conspiracy theory than anything else. Why would they hold back on such a tire? Most of the money tire manufacturers make is from selling new tires to replace worn ones. Not to replace flat ones.

Most punctures in a care tire can be plugged. So there's nothing to gain by holding back a 'never go flat' tire.

[Barry_Green]

Corvettes have been shipping with run/flat tires for years. Many manufacturers are already offering them, including Michelin and Goodyear and Pirelli and Bridgestone.

http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8755

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/Notes_From_The_Road/The_Skinny_on_Run_Flat_Tires.aspx

[Simon Wyndham]

Yep, Audis and Mercedes too. Only trouble with them is that the ride qality drops when using them. Oh well. Never get something for nothing :-)