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mikkowilson
09-08-2006, 08:57 AM
Building on the HD100, JVC is launching the HD200 and the HD251.

They have a similar form factor to the HD100 but offer much more on the inside. Including the all familer pro connectors: SDI, Genlock and Timecode. They also support upgrades to full Studio capabilty.

About the HD250 from JVC.com:



60p capture and recording provide high resolution and smooth motion for news and sports
Compact Shoulder Professional form factor
Choice of several lenses
Built-in 14.4V type Battery Mount
External time code sync
HD-SDI output w/embedded audio
Dual-media (tape +HDD)recording with DTE.
Next generation super-efficient MPEG-2 encoding
Genlock
Studio option with CCU
Time code synchronization
Enhanced Cinema Gamma
Composite video input (for pool feed)
BNC connectors


Details Here: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101625


Brief overview from the IBC Daily:
http://www.ibc.org/cgi-bin/ibc_dailynews_cms.cgi?db_id=23084&issue=2

- Mikko

GaryinCalifornia
09-08-2006, 10:01 AM
Mikko can you find out if Apple is there and when will they release an update to be able to use FCP with the camera and the Canon...

Thanks Gary

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 10:58 AM
720p bah

it's a joke.. who cares?

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 11:22 AM
Lots of people will care about it being 720p -- does that make it a joke? Not at all.

The real head-scratcher is a $9,000 HD250 that doesn't even include a lens, vs. a $7,000 Canon XH G1. Both offer 3x1/3" CCDs, both offer uncompressed HD-SDI with embedded audio, but one is $2,000 less and includes a (noninterchangeable) lens, the other has no lens and offers lens choices of a 16x POS or a $11,000 good lens.

Vs. $7,000 for the complete Canon package.

So I do think your "who cares" comment will probably prove correct, but not because it's 720p, rather because it's really high-priced compared to the Canon alternative.

Andreas
09-08-2006, 03:05 PM
60p is sweet... very sweet...

tnle2
09-08-2006, 03:27 PM
The real head-scratcher is a $9,000 HD250 that doesn't even include a lens, vs. a $7,000 Canon XH G1. Both offer 3x1/3" CCDs, both offer uncompressed HD-SDI with embedded audio, but one is $2,000 less and includes a (noninterchangeable) lens, the other has no lens and offers lens choices of a 16x POS or a $11,000 good lens.

Vs. $7,000 for the complete Canon package.

So I do think your "who cares" comment will probably prove correct, but not because it's 720p, rather because it's really high-priced compared to the Canon alternative.

Barry, I think this is a very unfair comparison. The two cameras are much more different than the few points you make above. The HD250 can capture at 60P, while the G1 does 60i. The HD250 is a shoulder mount, ENG form factor; the G1 is not. The HD250 has a professional 14.4V battery mount that can also power an onboard light and/or wireless mics; the G1 can not. The HD250 can be controlled by a professional CCU, the G1 can not (as far as I know). The HD250 can use optional premium ENG HD lenses with digital servos (from Fujinon) and real studio quality rear lens controls for both zoom and focus. The G1 can not.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Canon cameras, but the HD250 can fill a niche of its own. To discount it based on a few selective points is unfair IMO.

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 05:48 PM
Yes, you're right, it does have a few points in its favor. Comparison was unfair I guess. It's just what I thought of as soon as I heard the XHG1 was out: "well, there goes the HD250". But perhaps those differences will give it some room in the market.

GaryinCalifornia
09-08-2006, 06:37 PM
The real head-scratcher is a $9,000 HD250 that doesn't even include a lens.

The same thing I thought when I heard about the camera at NAB...

donkathon
09-08-2006, 06:49 PM
Though the DVX is a good camera, I think we all have to admit that the GY-HD JVS cams are the sexiest looking.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HDTV/photos/300w/gyhd250u_side_B.jpg

Fugitive
09-08-2006, 07:17 PM
Yeah baby!

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 07:34 PM
It definitely has style!

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 07:40 PM
Lots of people will care about it being 720p -- does that make it a joke? Not at all.

The real head-scratcher is a $9,000 HD250 that doesn't even include a lens, vs. a $7,000 Canon XH G1. Both offer 3x1/3" CCDs, both offer uncompressed HD-SDI with embedded audio, but one is $2,000 less and includes a (noninterchangeable) lens, the other has no lens and offers lens choices of a 16x POS or a $11,000 good lens.

Vs. $7,000 for the complete Canon package.

So I do think your "who cares" comment will probably prove correct, but not because it's 720p, rather because it's really high-priced compared to the Canon alternative.your finally statement produced and produces my feeling..

those jvc people are crazy..

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 09:18 PM
They're not crazy, they've obviously produced a product that resonates with a segment of the market. Heck, I was enamored enough with the concept of the HD100 to go ahead and buy one. I wish things had turned out differently, but they are a very innovative company and had some great ideas.

I just don't understand the HD250. It made a lot of sense before Canon dropped the XH G1 bomb on them. Now it seems a lot more marginalized idea. Still has unique redeeming qualities, as tnle2 points out.

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 09:30 PM
It made a lot of sense before Canon dropped the XH G1 bomb on them.you see.. it's just a question of good sense.. where's it?

it's like silicon imaging vs. red..

i'm concerned about ari and jason's company/cinema camera department.. how will it go after red's 4k launch?..

and we need them.. they're nice people.. expert too.. this indy industry needs people like those..

for example, i was with them.. i decided to go with their product and now my partners are saying: no way!

you see.. the smarter guy is that one who knows when it's better to go back as soon than late..

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 09:39 PM
sure.. their silence intrigues me.. what's happens there.. what's their reply? we know they don't have the marketing strategy of a visionary like jannard.. actually they could learn something with the red experience but not with jvc.. even if because jvc had already their profits with VHS and don't need so desperately for more.. but ari and jason aren't matsushi_ta* people..

* matsushi*ta it seems a different sense.. you see.. sense.. all in life must have sense.. 720p at $10,000 or even more doesn't have..

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 09:46 PM
as conclusion, maybe a price policy may be "the" solution not the opposite.. that's my point beyond 720p or 1080p or even 2k in the case of silicon imaging.. 4k in their case is the way.. even if just to the sensor.. i saw superman: it is 4k --> 1080p and the differences are there..

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 10:05 PM
we know they don't have the marketing strategy of a visionary like jannard..
But... you're comparing apples with oranges with grapes. Not all these products are aimed at the same market!

That's one of my pet peeves with how people perceive DVXUser membership. People think that the only thing anyone would ever want to do with one of these cameras is "make a movie". There are a lot of things out there that people do with cameras other than make movies! News and sports and reality TV and instructional videos and corporate films and television commercials and weddings and ... well, look, there are a lot of bucks being made in big business that has nothing to do with movies.

So there are tools out there that are better suited to some purposes than others.

Is there room in the marketplace for Arri's D20 or Dalsa's Origin or Thomson's Viper after RED hits the market? Probably. I don't know. But I'd expect that each of them excels at something that the others don't.

RED is not going to put every other camera maker out of business overnight. And they're not trying to! They know who they're aiming at. They call themselves Red Digital Cinema Camera Company. They're aiming specifically at VariCam/CineAlta buyers/renters, and the aforementioned Dalsa/Viper types. I suspect Sony, Panasonic, Canon and JVC will have no problem selling all sorts of cameras and infrastructure to broadcasters, networks, and other non-"digital cinema" users.


720p at $10,000 or even more doesn't have..
Let's look at JVC's HD250: you say "720p -- who cares?" Well, how about Fox, ABC, and ESPN? These are not small networks, these are two of the four biggest networks in the USA, and the largest dedicated sports network in the USA. And they all, exclusively, broadcast 720p. And only 720p.

So you may not be interested in 720p. And Sony may say that only 1080 is "true HD". But there are billions of dollars being spent making, shooting, and broadcasting 720p content.

So now that you've made me think about it, I shouldn't have said that there's no room for the JVC HD250. It serves a unique purpose for the 720p market; an affordable HD-SDI 720p camera head.


even if because jvc had already their profits with VHS and don't need so desperately for more..
You'd be wrong on that one. JVC is on the ropes, they're in serious financial trouble.

Fugitive
09-08-2006, 10:31 PM
True. I heard the parent copmany was even contemplating dropping the JVC brand altogether. Scary thought.

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 10:38 PM
But... you're comparing apples with oranges with grapes. Not all these products are aimed at the same market!

That's one of my pet peeves with how people perceive DVXUser membership. People think that the only thing anyone would ever want to do with one of these cameras is "make a movie". There are a lot of things out there that people do with cameras other than make movies! News and sports and reality TV and instructional videos and corporate films and television commercials and weddings and ... well, look, there are a lot of bucks being made in big business that has nothing to do with movies.

So there are tools out there that are better suited to some purposes than others.yeah i know but i love to forget..


Is there room in the marketplace for Arri's D20 or Dalsa's Origin or Thomson's Viper after RED hits the market? Probably. I don't know. But I'd expect that each of them excels at something that the others don't.

RED is not going to put every other camera maker out of business overnight. And they're not trying to! They know who they're aiming at. They call themselves Red Digital Cinema Camera Company. They're aiming specifically at VariCam/CineAlta buyers/renters, and the aforementioned Dalsa/Viper types. I suspect Sony, Panasonic, Canon and JVC will have no problem selling all sorts of cameras and infrastructure to broadcasters, networks, and other non-"digital cinema" users.


Let's look at JVC's HD250: you say "720p -- who cares?" Well, how about Fox, ABC, and ESPN? These are not small networks, these are two of the four biggest networks in the USA, and the largest dedicated sports network in the USA. And they all, exclusively, broadcast 720p. And only 720p.

So you may not be interested in 720p. And Sony may say that only 1080 is "true HD". But there are billions of dollars being spent making, shooting, and broadcasting 720p content.

So now that you've made me think about it, I shouldn't have said that there's no room for the JVC HD250. It serves a unique purpose for the 720p market; an affordable HD-SDI 720p camera head.


You'd be wrong on that one. JVC is on the ropes, they're in serious financial trouble.yeah i also know but maybe they want to failure.. there are mysteries that we can't accomplish..

conclusion: my viewpoint is exclusively from the filmmaker's side.. i don't give a damn for the others sides.. sorry, i might know there are different shooters.. but even to them or for you at states (720p and so on.. i'm posting from a 1080i country), progressive (jvc or silicon imaging) it seems to film look purposes.. to those ones that you mentioned, there is 1080i interlaced, correct?

Zig_Zigman
09-08-2006, 10:46 PM
JVC's only shot to stick around is to make a 2/3" chip HD cam and put it out there cheap ASAP.

filmmaker1977
09-08-2006, 10:46 PM
but as wedding camera jvc goes well.. i have a lot of students with it to this purpose to SD DVD out.. but even they want the 1080 because they're dreaming with the film out.. and my bet is 1080 ala canon f mode.. or the silicon imaging product.. or the red one from next april/june..

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 10:53 PM
JVC's only shot to stick around is to make a 2/3" chip HD cam and put it out there cheap ASAP.
Well, no, that's not gonna happen. They were planning on doing that, they were going to make the GY-HD7000U, but apparently they decided to cancel that product. Why? I don't know -- not enough resources to go around? In any case, they appear to have put all their eggs in the 720p HDV basket. Time will tell whether it was a good gamble or not.

Barry_Green
09-08-2006, 11:47 PM
Nobody's "spreading FUD", we're talking about what the news agencies reported: Matsushita considered shutting JVC down.
http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/06/05/matsushita_looking_closely_at.html

Now if there's a newer story out that says that JVC's turnaround efforts are working, well, that's great news and I hope it continues.

filmmaker1977
09-09-2006, 12:09 AM
your link doesn't work unless you change the "t" letter in the censored "*" stuff.. (matsushita)

filmmaker1977
09-09-2006, 01:40 AM
yeah..

«For the first three months of the current business year, JVC reported an operating loss of 1.9 billion yen.»

but..

«JVC, which accounts for 8 percent of Matsushita's group sales, aims for an operating profit of 10 billion yen ($88 million) in the business year to March, in a reversal from a 6.9 billion yen loss a year earlier, when it was hit by slowing demand for its cathode ray tube TVs and audio players.»

i understand.. you know.. panasonic is his fav matsushit brand not jvc..

visualbrother
09-09-2006, 02:24 AM
If your talking 24frames then 720/25P is not great, but its not that bad either. If your talking TV then 720/50P is the same as 1080i for most things its actually better. DVCPro HD is 1440 scaled up to 1920 so is HDCAM, 1440 devided by 2 is 720 :P For effects, chroma keying etc. 720 50P is perfect a lot better then 1080i.

Please enlighten us about your filmmakers point of view, you showing your DVX work on 35mill copies? I'm a filmmaker, I think video standarts are important to know and abuse. And 720P has its advantages if your going to use effects.

As for the HD100 and HD250: your better off buying a HVX, not just because you have the choice of resolution and recoding formats. (P2 rules) but your not going to use the lens option. Unless your going to rent a PS+tecnick option, but then your better off with a HVX as well. Putting a 2/3' lens on a 1'3' body just means your brilliant broadcast wideangle turned into a basic long lens.. wel sort off and getting the overpriced 1/3' lens is a bad joke.

Personally I think the whole idea of producing 1/3" HD cameras is ridicoulous, the last thing you want as a filmmaker is a HD camera with more DOF then your grandmother has grey hairs.

"ok so we pull back from the flower and focus on the woman in the corner"
"eeeh like we can't its all in focus.... like we need a bigger set if you want to do focus pulls..."

Oh aand i think the HD100 is a horrible little camera to shoot with, crappy viewfinder, to light for real shoulder work but a great idea. The canon is, like the HVX, just another gloryfied camcorder but then again i'm used to real cameras so perhaps not the best point of view here :P




yeah i know but i love to forget..

yeah i also know but maybe they want to failure.. there are mysteries that we can't accomplish..

conclusion: my viewpoint is exclusively from the filmmaker's side.. i don't give a damn for the others sides.. sorry, i might know there are different shooters.. but even to them or for you at states (720p and so on.. i'm posting from a 1080i country), progressive (jvc or silicon imaging) it seems to film look purposes.. to those ones that you mentioned, there is 1080i interlaced, correct?

rawfa
09-09-2006, 02:53 AM
I'd rather put my money on the new Canon. With the aditional money I would have spent on the JVC I could buy a 35mm adapter with very good collection of lenses and
a kick ass shoulder support. Heck, if you throw in the money you would have to pay for the jvc lens you could even buy a steady cam for the canon.

Spartacus
09-09-2006, 03:13 AM
What would be the cheapest HD ENG camera out there?
A XDcamHD or a DVCproHD?
And could you edit the data from the above on a cheap PC/mac via Firewire/USB?
Or would you also need a player/recorder and a SDI card?
I think the JVCs will have have their niche...

visualbrother
09-09-2006, 03:19 AM
That is the big problem right now: there is no real good solution out there.

XDCam sounds great but half inch chips kinda mess it up and i'm still not sure you can do a file-based transfer of your video from the discs. DVCPRO HD is tape and very expensive if you want a real shoulder cam. The HVX is the only one out there with P2 cards and affordable but your stuck with the 1/3 chips.

My guess is next year we will see some proper HD cams. But i'm off to the IBC as we speak so who knows?



What would be the cheapest HD ENG camera out there?
A XDcamHD or a DVCproHD?
And could you edit the data from the above on a cheap PC/mac via Firewire/USB?
Or would you also need a player/recorder and a SDI card?
I think the JVCs will have have their niche...

Fugitive
09-09-2006, 03:23 AM
There is a newer story. In my post above I linked to a Reuters article dated August 7, 2006 that states Matsush*ta has confidence in JVC and expects it to become profitable this coming business year. ... I suggest investigating if this is still true otherwise it can inadvertently create FUD.

Well, frankly, I didnt know. I was basing the comment on my previous knowledge of what I had read. Thanks for the correction. As far as creating FUD is concerned, I think we are at liberty to make such comments if only so that someone can correct our ignorance about them. Thats what DVXUser is for, isn't it? :)

Ralph Oshiro
09-09-2006, 03:46 AM
What are the projected ship dates for JVC's new HD110, HD200, and HD250 (at NAB2006, JVC had announced different, staged release dates for each model)? Does anyone know?

filmmaker1977
09-09-2006, 04:31 AM
If your talking 24frames then 720/25P is not great, but its not that bad either. If your talking TV then 720/50P is the same as 1080i for most things its actually better. DVCPro HD is 1440 scaled up to 1920 so is HDCAM, 1440 devided by 2 is 720 :P For effects, chroma keying etc. 720 50P is perfect a lot better then 1080i.

Please enlighten us about your filmmakers point of view, you showing your DVX work on 35mill copies? I'm a filmmaker, I think video standarts are important to know and abuse. And 720P has its advantages if your going to use effects.

As for the HD100 and HD250: your better off buying a HVX, not just because you have the choice of resolution and recoding formats. (P2 rules) but your not going to use the lens option. Unless your going to rent a PS+tecnick option, but then your better off with a HVX as well. Putting a 2/3' lens on a 1'3' body just means your brilliant broadcast wideangle turned into a basic long lens.. wel sort off and getting the overpriced 1/3' lens is a bad joke.

Personally I think the whole idea of producing 1/3" HD cameras is ridicoulous, the last thing you want as a filmmaker is a HD camera with more DOF then your grandmother has grey hairs.

"ok so we pull back from the flower and focus on the woman in the corner"
"eeeh like we can't its all in focus.... like we need a bigger set if you want to do focus pulls..."

Oh aand i think the HD100 is a horrible little camera to shoot with, crappy viewfinder, to light for real shoulder work but a great idea. The canon is, like the HVX, just another gloryfied camcorder but then again i'm used to real cameras so perhaps not the best point of view here :Pi can sum the question with only four characters or in this case a number: 1:2.35

visualbrother
09-09-2006, 07:08 AM
42

Is that your question in regard to my answer or your answer in regard to my question?

With any luck i'll be shooting a short with a viper or a sony 950 next month, should be fun to take the HVX and HD 100 on set and shoot along side.

DavidBeier
09-09-2006, 07:25 PM
Why do people whine about 720p being useless when so many of us were all using 480p (or even 480i) so often and so many still are? If audiences can still stomache SD then they can certainly stomache 720p (uprezzed if neccesary). For that matter, I'd much rather have a lower rez progressive signal than a higher rez interlaced one. Interlaced just seems plain stupid.

tnle2
09-09-2006, 09:05 PM
Well, frankly, I didnt know. I was basing the comment on my previous knowledge of what I had read. Thanks for the correction. As far as creating FUD is concerned, I think we are at liberty to make such comments if only so that someone can correct our ignorance about them. Thats what DVXUser is for, isn't it? :)

That's true. I was probably too hard on you guys. Anyhow, no worries :)

Bob Diesso
10-24-2006, 09:29 PM
DVCPro HD is 1440 scaled up to 1920 so is HDCAM, 1440 devided by 2 is 720 :P For effects, chroma keying etc. 720 50P is perfect a lot better then 1080i.P

Respectfully, DVCPRO HD recorded format is actually 1280 scaled during playback to 1920. Because of DVCPRO HD's limited bandwidth (100Mbps vs. HDCam's 140 Mbps) it was not possible to record HDCam's 1440 frame size.

Please don't interpret my comments as coming from a Sony fan. I'm truly not.

visualbrother
10-24-2006, 10:28 PM
Why not a Sony fan? They still make some very nice stuff. A Sony DvCam industrial camera has definately my preference over a Panasonic DVX100 of HVX200 when shooting SD :) I think in general Sony's DP150 and 170 are both great at low light conditions as well, Panasonic gives weird cheap stretchy noise.

Anyway, do you mean the HVX200 shoots at 1280? Or the format is itself is 1280?

MovieSwede
10-25-2006, 05:56 AM
The NTSC HVX200 shoots in 1080 i/p with 1280*1080 with chroma 640*1080

The PAL HVX200 shoots in 1080 i/p with 1440*1080 with chroma 720*1080

HDCAM is 1440*1080 with chroma 480*1080

The reason why DVCPROHD in "PAL" can shoot at higher is because it goes no futher than 25P/50i where HDCAM shoots all the way to 60i/30P

140/30 = 4,666
100/25 = 4
100/30 = 3,333