What`s the best documentary you`ve ever seen? [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

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Ian Haugland

08-27-2006, 06:20 AM

Personally I think it must be Michael Moore`s "Bowling for Columbine"

It can be both exciting and funny and it`s great entertainment.
This is a film that leaves you with the feeling of have seeing something important

And great clipping to

Zed

08-27-2006, 09:27 AM

1. Capturing the Friedmans
2. Paradise Lost
3. Harlan County USA
4. Murderball
5. Grey Gardens

The Cash

08-27-2006, 10:21 AM

I don't know if you've seen it in US but I've seen this great documentary called ''Baraka''. It talks about the world from its creation showing the parts of the world that are untouched by humans and they are representing ancient times, all the way to our modern age, showing crowded traffic and advanced technology. The film doesn't have any narration to it, it is up to you to understand it. It shows point of view from many civilizations, comparing the African tribes way of life to ie. modern American. It has much time lapse work, with moving camera. When I saw it I wished I had some better camera to go and shoot something like that. I strongly recommend it.

MichaelP

08-27-2006, 10:25 AM

Dogtown and Z-Boys - the editing alone captured the whole spirit of the time. One of many favorites.

ade4all

08-27-2006, 10:32 AM

Sorry I know you wanted best but I find it hard to choose between these
1 Hearts of darkness
2 Touching the void
3 Grizzly man
4 Glastonbury
5 Woodstock
5 One Day In September
6 Buena Vista Social Club
7 Lost In La Mancha
8 When We Were Kings
9 Etre et Avoir
10 Czech Dream
11 Baraka

MotionMagic

08-27-2006, 11:07 AM

Not exactly one nor necesarily the best, but some are interesting, some are informative, and some are entertaining.

The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara
Riding Giants
Super Size Me
Grizzly Man
Unprecedented
Sherman's March
The Corporation
Devil's Playground

Ogrus

08-27-2006, 02:36 PM

Never saw it but heard it was great
"The Darwin Theory"
did anyone see it?

bosindy

08-27-2006, 02:41 PM

The 3 best that have not been mentioned: (For those who are political junkies or not.)

A Perfect Candidate -Oliver North and Chuck Robb go bare knuckle and ultimatley show they both have feet of clay

The War Room - Clinton v. Bush in 92, campaigns were never run the same after this for better or worse, Carville gives a speech to his minions at the end that will give even the most die hard conservative chills.

Street Fight - The battle for Newark, New Jersey. I was moved to donate money to Corey Booker until I realized Sharpe James would not run again. Hard not to be cynical after watching this one.

Duct Tape Films

08-27-2006, 02:45 PM

Ditto for "The War Room", along with ANYTHING else DA Pennebaker has done.

Chris Stearns

08-27-2006, 03:32 PM

Vernon, Florida - Errol Morris

moe_snodgrass

08-27-2006, 05:39 PM

I just rewatched "My Best Friend," Werner Herzog's tribute to Klaus Kinski's after Kinski's death. Great. I also rewatched Les Blank's "Burden of Dreams," on the making of Herzog's "Fitzcarraldo." These are among the best I've seen. They get better with each viewing.

Hans Moleman

08-27-2006, 06:21 PM

for me, it's always been "Some Kind of Monster." Best soundtrack...ever.

wabbit

08-27-2006, 06:45 PM

Seven Up series, hands down.

If you like Baraka then you have to check out the Koyaanisqatsi trilogy. As much as I dislike Phillip Glass, these movies are beyond perfect.

Cheers

bustak

08-27-2006, 09:23 PM

Steven James's "Stevie"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0334416/

ece

08-27-2006, 09:24 PM

The Kid Stays In the Picture

Just a great looking film. Lots of Motion Graphics. Visually one of the best documentary films I have ever seen.

Riding Giants

This film not only showed the waves it made you feel like you were on them.
I loved Dogtown which I saw first but after seeing this film, Riding Giants became my favorite for a long time.

Dogtown Z-boys

Another great Stacey Peralta documentary that really sets itself apart from traditional documentary storytelling, like those that can be seen on the History channel and PBS. This documentary is exciting and fun to watch. With fast paced editing and great storytelling this film is one of the best documentaries out there.

Rize

Interesting is not a good enough word to describe it. A very entertaining look into a world that many didn't even know existed. A world of Clowns and Krumping. You don't have to understand the dances they do or even like the way it looks. This film is still compelling and after you get over the initial shock that it is a real documentary you can enjoy the story that is being told.

Tupac Ressurection

Awesome editing. Narrated by a deceased man this film really stood out as a great documentary, and was even Oscar Nominated. Tupac Ressurection was a truly capatavating and compelling film.

Bowling for Columbine

Great story. I would never have seen any of the other documentary films mentioned above if it wasn't for this one. It was the first documentary I ever saw that wasn't created for Senior Citizens like the documentaries on PBS and the History Channel. This film alone redefined how I saw documentary films.

dustino

08-27-2006, 11:02 PM

Docs I love not yet mentioned:

Why We Fight (should be out on DVD soon if not now)
Murder on a Sunday Morning
Scared Straight! (looks like an after-school special if you see the dvd cover, but it's great)
Ring of Fire: the Emile Griffith Story
Don't Look Back (agreed on Pennebaker, he and Hedgus set the standard)
Spellbound
Enron: the Smartest Guys in the Room

snodart

08-28-2006, 12:09 AM

No Mr. Death yet?

cinemakinoeye

08-28-2006, 12:26 AM

There is no way I could choose a "best," as there are so many. Maybe I could make a list of "100 best" but short of that, here’s the list of 10 contenders in chronological order:

* The Man with the Movie Camera (Dziga Vertov, 1929)
* Don’t Look Back (D.A. Pennebaker, 1967)
* Titicut Follies (Frederick Wiseman, 1967)
* Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe (Les Blank, 1979)
* Notebook on Cities and Clothes (Wim Wenders, 1989)
* Dialogues with Madwomen (Allie Light and Irving Saraf, 1993)
* When We Were Kings (Leon Gast, 1996)
* Buena Vista Social Club (Wim Wenders, 1999)
* A Kalahari Family (John Marshall, 2002)
* Bowling for Columbine (Michael Moore, 2002)

I've written some program notes on each of the films in my blog in the post titled, "Ten Documentary Films (http://kino-eye.com/2006/08/27/10-documentary-films/)," if you're curious about any of them.

J.R. Hudson

08-28-2006, 12:30 AM

The Fog of War

(Incredible)

http://www.sonyclassics.com/fogofwar

No agenda; no skewing (MM). Just plain and honest

steadicamsteel

08-28-2006, 01:37 AM

AMERICAN MOVIE - (very funny) http://www.americanmovie.com/

ROGER & ME - (classic) http://www.michaelmoore.com/dogeatdogfilms/rogerme.html

AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH - (why wasn't he elected president?) http://www.michaelmoore.com/dogeatdogfilms/rogerme.html

BARAKA - (superb cinematography) http://www.spiritofbaraka.com/baraka.aspx

A HELL ON EARTH - (harrowing)

MotionMagic

08-28-2006, 08:16 AM

Zim

08-28-2006, 08:59 AM

"Gimme Shelter" the doc about the Rolling Stones concert where the Hell's Angels took over.

Zim

08-28-2006, 08:59 AM

Actually he was elected President, but the majority Republican Supreme Court appointed the loser to Presidency.

And to stay on topic, Robert Greenwald chronicles this travesty of democracy in his documentary 'Unprecedented: The 2000 Presidential Election'.

it makes me want to make a doc about about all the Bush hate and during a time of war. Compare it to say Roosevelt during WWII.

Hans Moleman

08-28-2006, 09:05 AM

maybe be more relevant to comare it to Truman during Korea. I think the similarities between the two men (W and Tru) are more easily compared

FlintMI

08-28-2006, 11:29 AM

Roger & Me
changed documentary and filmmaking from that point forward. period.

Bowling for Columbine
Finally, the academy gets it

The Weather Underground
Will blow you away

The N Word
Required viewing for white america

Hearts & Minds
Probably the best of all time, the standard

Hype!
after you dismiss the obvious choices, it's the best music doc

The Thin Blue Line
The subject was a guy on death row. After the movie came out, he got a new trial and was aquitted. That's the power of filmmaking my friends

FlintMI

08-28-2006, 11:33 AM

Bowling for Columbine

Great story. I would never have seen any of the other documentary films mentioned above if it wasn't for this one. It was the first documentary I ever saw that wasn't created for Senior Citizens like the documentaries on PBS and the History Channel. This film alone redefined how I saw documentary films.

I'm glad you enjoyed Bowling. Roger and Me predates Bowling by 13 years though... did you see that?

FlintMI

08-28-2006, 11:38 AM

The Fog of War

(Incredible)

http://www.sonyclassics.com/fogofwar

No agenda; no skewing (MM). Just plain and honest

And it features the Interrotron, very cool device

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/7339/1156786655.jpg

NewYorkLion

08-28-2006, 12:13 PM

two classic must-sees are:

Hands on a Hardbody (hilarious) and

Okee Noodling (great).

Most of Werner Herzogs older docs are pretty good too.

valdez

08-29-2006, 01:10 AM

Wow, so many can't pick one.
Many of my favorites I saw at film festivals or from univ. libraries but may be harder to just get commonly.
firstly, of the big names, my favorites are:
All of Ross McElwees films,
"Shermans March"
"6' Oclock News"
"Time Indefinite"
"Bright Leaves"
etc.

All of Les Blancs' are also awesome
I think it's called "Gates of Heaven", my favorite also
"Garlic is as Good as Ten Mothers"

Also Alan Berliners' films are all good
"The Sweetest sound"
"Nobody's Business"
Etc.

"Roger and Me" of course,
and also "When We Were Kings"
I think two very important masterpieces

other odd ones I've liked recently. One called "Rocks With Wings" and another called "Monster Road"
"Titicut Follies" is good. I actually rather liked the recent TV series "Long Way Round", more traditional than the other trash on TV these days.
Lets see....
The Maysles Bros. films like "Salesman", "Grey Gardens"
"SpellBound" was pretty nice.
"Koyanisquatsi",
Vertovs' "Man With the Movie Camera" was great
I loved "American Movie" and also really loved "The Gleaners and I" (French so I think it's like "La Glanuese et..." something, awesome though)
"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" is pretty awesome, access wise.
"Dark Days" is also really good.
"Streetwise" is a classic
I've a soft spot for Jazz and Monk so "Straight No Chaser" is also a favorite
"Blair Witch Project" is really scary... Just kidding, just kidding
I say if your looking for what to get watch the classics then go to some doc festivals and find the best new stuff that never gets seen, thats where I've seen some of the greatest stuff that just dissapears. oh, and "Speedo" is really great, too. And "American Mullet", and "Cane Toads: an Unnatural History", and the "American Family" series from the 70's (pre-"reality tv" series. And "Self Made Man", and "Troublesome Creek", and "Brothers Keeper". What about "Paris is Burning", the "7 up" series (newest one comes out next month), "Southern Comfort", "The Wonderful Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl".
so many greats out there, but those are some that come to mind... I'll stop there.

NewYorkLion

08-29-2006, 07:20 AM

I'm a big fan of the BBC serier 'Horizon'

Rock Punk!

08-29-2006, 11:49 AM

No Hoop Dreams yet?

Not on my list of bests but worth your time:

Mardi Gras - Made in China
Overnight

Also just watched the Decline of Western Civilization Part II - hilarious!

Amerikan123

08-29-2006, 12:05 PM

hearts of darkness
anddddddddddd
the god who wasnt there

dustino

08-30-2006, 03:04 PM

I forgot about another of my favorite recents docs:

Off the Charts: The Song-Poem Story
http://www.shoutfactory.com/selection/90/Off_the_Charts_Song_Poem_Story.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443335/

Very, very funny, quirky, and interesting. Has much in common with American Movie

Shaun Patrick

08-30-2006, 03:31 PM

Chris Marker's Sans Soleil

http://imdb.com/title/tt0084628/

Rasquachemedia

08-30-2006, 03:42 PM

i really liked born into brothels, there are many more that others already posted too

mad hot ballroom was very entertaining

but for best maybe:

capturing the friedmans
hoop dreams

CallaghanFilms

08-30-2006, 10:58 PM

Kevin Wells

08-31-2006, 12:14 AM

Hearts of Darkness is incredible.

Also, The Staircase is a chilling documentary series. Simply stunning.

-kevin

Rubix³

08-31-2006, 12:43 PM

1. Capturing the Friedmans
2. Paradise Lost
3. Harlan County USA
4. Murderball
5. Grey Gardens Zed! Paradise Lost! I can't believe someone mentioned that! Excellent documentary.

alexdias

08-31-2006, 06:19 PM

It warms my heart seeing so many good docs appreciated by some many people.

"Darwin's Nightmare" should be part of the list.

Any and all Fredrick Wiseman.
And all the others mentioned before.

We’re living a great moment for Documentary Filmmaking.

uhrgl

08-31-2006, 06:43 PM

I think Hoop Dreams is amazing.

jleo

08-31-2006, 11:48 PM

The Century of the Self- by Adam Curtis

All 4 hours were shown at The Vancouver Film Festival a few years ago. In between the episodes the audience filed out in stunned silence and back in again! Many went again to a second showing to repeat the 4 hours!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/century_of_the_self.shtml

robot909

09-01-2006, 12:09 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm heading to the video store now...

Bus No. 8

09-03-2006, 12:25 AM

Late entry here -

I don't know about best I've ever seen, but I like these a lot -
(in no particular order - except the first one)

The Times of Harvey Milk (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60027982&trkid=189530&strkid=1599168337_0_0) (possibly the best I've ever seen)

Touching the Void (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60033287&trkid=189530&strkid=1094467900_0_0)

Man with the Movie Camera (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=17016091&trkid=189530&strkid=1049116296_0_0)

To Be and To Have (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60031224&trkid=189530&strkid=287445282_0_0)

Dark Days (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60001871&trkid=189530&strkid=598352810_0_0)

Sister Helen (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70015745&trkid=189530&strkid=839201285_0_0)

Murder on a Sunday Morning (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60027606&trkid=189530&strkid=1442272759_0_0)

OT: Our Town (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70002160&trkid=189530&strkid=1667130206_0_0)

The Nomi Song (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70026289&trkid=189530&strkid=140445791_0_0)

Murderball (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70021128&trkid=189530&strkid=1761306875_0_0)

Brother's Keeper (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60029558&trkid=189530&strkid=1688429731_0_0)

Paradise Lost: The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70038380&trkid=189530&strkid=1828023541_1_0)

Metallica: Some Kind of Monster (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70000097&trkid=189530&strkid=243732103_0_0)

Grizzly Man (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70024093&trkid=189530&strkid=1567251818_0_0)

My Best Fiend: Klaus Kinski (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60000511&trkid=189530&strkid=724511535_0_0)

Grey Gardens (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70020235&trkid=189530&strkid=44499623_0_0)

Southern Comfort (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60026998&trkid=189530&strkid=1658610396_0_0)

Best Boy (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60027986&trkid=189530&strkid=1935700832_0_0)

The Same River Twice (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70020074&trkid=189530&strkid=346952878_1_0)

New York Doll (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70029617&trkid=189530&strkid=1172522467_0_0)

Speaking in Strings: Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60000579&trkid=189530&strkid=2032564518_0_0)

The Rolling Stones: Gimme Shelter (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60002833&trkid=189530&strkid=224267614_0_0)

The Cockettes (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60026158&trkid=189530&strkid=2011461604_0_0)

A Certain Kind of Death (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70025287&trkid=189530&strkid=955660534_0_0)

Gray Matter (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70033525&trkid=189530&strkid=423500094_0_0)

Seven Up / 7 Plus Seven (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70012577&trkid=189530&strkid=257691484_0_0)

American Dream (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60027976&trkid=189530&strkid=821702906_0_0)

Mayor of the Sunset Strip (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60037221&trkid=189530&strkid=335877125_0_0)

In the Realms of the Unreal (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60035201&trkid=189530&strkid=1626759414_0_0)

Sing Faster: The Stagehands' Ring Cycle (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60028899&trkid=189530&strkid=762850680_0_0)

and I'm really looking forward to seeing Spike Lee's When the Levees Broke: A Requiem in Four Acts (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkiovefpEwB8AM0ZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3a3YwNDl 1BGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANDUzAxX zEwNg--/SIG=128l2andu/EXP=1157352111/**http%3a//www.hbo.com/docs/programs/whentheleveesbroke/)

Zed

09-03-2006, 03:50 PM

Paradise Lost works because of great storytelling. It's a film that keeps revealing for over 2 hours. Watch it, then watch the sequel. Both films will keep you guessing.

Bus No. 8

09-03-2006, 04:29 PM

Watch it, then watch the sequel. Both films will keep you guessing.

Yeah, but I wasn't as impressed with the second film. I don't think it had the same element of discovery to it - it was mostly just more of the crazy father with both the filmmakers and the audience already convinced that he was guilty in some way. I'm not sure that much new information was included in the second film. But it's been a while since I've seen it, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Stas_Tagios

09-03-2006, 04:47 PM

Streetwise
Crumb
American Movie
Harlan County USA
Lost in La Mancha

This year's "Who Killed the Electric Car?" was fantastic as well.

Bus No. 8

09-04-2006, 12:37 AM

Streetwise

I'm waiting for Streetwise to come out on DVD. I've been wanting to see it for years. Takes place in my home, Seattle.

barnholdt

09-05-2006, 04:45 AM

The Fog of War

hawkmankt

09-05-2006, 07:35 AM

1. Paradise Lost (how pissed were you after you saw that?)
2. American Movie (how much fun was that?)
3. Gates Of Heaven
4. Capturing The Friedmans
5. Best Boy

NewYorkLion

09-05-2006, 09:48 AM

I just saw, a letter to true. great film if you love dogs

Bus No. 8

09-05-2006, 01:40 PM

I just saw, a letter to true. great film if you love dogs

Wow, here's the Netflix description. I'm, um...intrigued!

In this valentine to his beloved golden retrievers, writer-director Bruce Weber (http://www.netflix.com/RoleDisplay?personid=30007910) dishes up a collage of his passions, structured as a series of missives to his youngest dog, True. Interlaced in the homage are canine-related yarns about actors Dirk Bogarde and Elizabeth Taylor; poetry readings by Julie Christie (http://www.netflix.com/RoleDisplay?personid=16948) and singer Marianne Faithfull (http://www.netflix.com/RoleDisplay?personid=20002151); an aside about Haitian refugees; and a passage from a Martin Luther King Jr. speech, among other things.

dbb909

09-05-2006, 02:58 PM

Metallica's "Some Kind of Monster" & "Darwin's Nightmare" are excellent

jjb

09-05-2006, 03:38 PM

[QUOTE=FlintMI]Hype!
after you dismiss the obvious choices, it's the best music doc

FlintMi - I fully agree, it seems to be the best music doc so far.

Bus No. 8

09-05-2006, 05:02 PM

dougspice

09-05-2006, 05:49 PM

I'm not sure in what universe Man With A Movie Camera is a documentary, but it is a fine film.

Most of the films I would cite have already been listed, but I think Fast, Cheap, and Out of Control has not! Such a fascinating movie.

bosindy

09-05-2006, 09:30 PM

I vote for DIG! as the best music documentary.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0388888/

pud

09-19-2006, 03:21 PM

SHOAH
most powerful film I've ever seen.
It always makes by top ten film list.
i think it justifies the existence of film.

joe13

09-20-2006, 08:29 PM

Only one person liked "The times of Harey Milk"?
You people need to see an academy award winning doc.
Also I like "the Boys of 42nd street".

NewYorkLion

09-20-2006, 09:12 PM

Wow, here's the Netflix description. I'm, um...intrigued!

In this valentine to his beloved golden retrievers, writer-director Bruce Weber (http://www.netflix.com/RoleDisplay?personid=30007910) dishes up a collage of his passions, structured as a series of missives to his youngest dog, True. Interlaced in the homage are canine-related yarns about actors Dirk Bogarde and Elizabeth Taylor; poetry readings by Julie Christie (http://www.netflix.com/RoleDisplay?personid=16948) and singer Marianne Faithfull (http://www.netflix.com/RoleDisplay?personid=20002151); an aside about Haitian refugees; and a passage from a Martin Luther King Jr. speech, among other things.

It's a rediculously beautiful movie.

Blaine

09-20-2006, 09:40 PM

All three by Ken Burns:

The Civil War (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0098769/)
Baseball (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0108700/)
Jazz (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0221300/)

AloysiusK

09-21-2006, 01:44 AM

In the Real World with Wlliam Eggleston. How to Draw a Bunny.

Geno

09-25-2006, 03:29 PM

Gotta get my two cents here.
1) Harlan County USA...Brings tears to my eyes just thinking about having something to fight for!
2) Capturing The Friedmans...Sure he did it, but it must have been extremely difficult for the producer to keep that balancing act going.
3) War Photographer... About James Nachtway, should be required viewing for membership into the human race.
4) Shoah... 8 hours and not one shot of archival footage.
5) Tarnation...A heartbreaking work of staggering genius.
Spike Lee's Katrina doc was great, Scorcese's Dylan doc was great, Rize was great and Tupac Ressurected was great, I could go on for the rest of the day, gotta go.

Barth Gimble

10-04-2006, 05:57 PM

I'm waiting for Streetwise to come out on DVD. I've been wanting to see it for years. Takes place in my home, Seattle.

....I have Streetwise on VIDEO DISC!! :huh: And I'll mention Jupiter's Wife just because it hasn't been mentioned.

Cheesesailor77

10-04-2006, 08:59 PM

[SIZE=5]Hype!
after you dismiss the obvious choices, it's the best music doc

phew, I was begining to think i was the only one :) One of my top 10 favorite movies ever!

Psynema

10-05-2006, 07:05 AM

In no order...

Nanook of the North / Flaherty in general
March of the Penguins
Bowling for Columbine
Highschool

Bus No. 8

10-05-2006, 08:35 AM

5) Tarnation...A heartbreaking work of staggering genius.

Yikes, and I was thinking that I didn't really have a choice for the worst documentary thread. What I saw of Tarnation was just plain awful. I never did make it past the endless, endless iMovie generated text providing the exposition of his life in minute detail.

That's just my opinion...

Enflow

10-11-2006, 12:40 AM

I just wanted to say I recently watched Al Gore's 'An Incovenient Truth' and I was totally floored.

No matter if you are a liberal or conservative, black or white, rich or poor, this issue effects us all and everyone should see this film.

A movie every person on the planet should see period.

Thats all I have to say ;)

DHbiker

10-12-2006, 04:28 PM

Dogtown and Z-Boys - the editing alone captured the whole spirit of the time. One of many favorites.

Great movie. I watched it for the second time last Thurday... awesome editing and the way the story is written is great too. Some cool surfing in there as well.

I saw Bowling for Columbine and I thought that was a pretty good Documentary...

I bet this will spark some controversy but IMO the worst is Fahrenheit 9/11.

The "Documentary" called "loose Change" is well put together but if you do some of your own research it is evident that a lot of that movie is not based on facts and merely fiction.

sean90291

10-12-2006, 07:58 PM

My two favourite documentaries ever:

Paris Is Burning
American Movie

gumonstro

10-12-2006, 08:14 PM

MONDOVINO - IMO beats any Michael Moore film.

CHILDREN UNDERGROUND - shoking

NOTICIAS DE UMA GUERRA PARTICULAR - brazilian doc about traffic in Rio de Janeiro

thartley

10-12-2006, 09:29 PM

Mule Skinner Blues (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290010/)

firewallet

10-14-2006, 12:02 PM

I would like to add "Scratch" and "I Am Trying to Break Your Heart " to the long list of the previously mentioned.

bustak

10-15-2006, 10:13 PM

"Let's Get Lost," a VERY sad documentary about Chet Baker.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095515/

I can't seem to locate it on DVD. :(

tharwa

10-16-2006, 01:38 AM

Hey Guys,
I'm trying to track down a documentary, it's about an older gent living on a property in africa, who then has to leave and return to the UK for his final years, depressing and moving, cant for the life of me think of the name!!
any ideas?

cian

edinburgan

10-17-2006, 11:00 AM

Anything by Panaroma (BBC) is always a pleasure to be informed through.

bustak

10-19-2006, 02:58 PM

Some people have touched upon this one, but I need to mention it too!

Wiseman's masterpiece "Titicut Follies"
http://www.subcin.com/titicut.html

it's a dark & scary look @ a hospital/prison for the criminally insane in the late 60's!

If you get a chance watch it, it's cinema-verite @ its BEST!

jakissa

10-23-2006, 04:13 AM

"Mondovino" , jonathan nossiter, 2004 (http://www.mondovinofilm.com)
"Who The Hell Is Juliette", carlos marcovich, 1997

manglerBMX

11-01-2006, 07:40 AM

i've been trying to get bellevue, inside out. it was an hbo documentary that came on a few years ago. it used to be on amazon but always said "not in stock" i tried to win it off ebay last night but a bidding war at the last 10 seconds lead me to defeat. does anyone have this? i'm pretty sure it only came out on vhs. but i just read this whole thread and added 12 movies to my netflix cue. anyone know when hands on a hard body is going to be out?

edit* i found this story dealing with the hands on a hardbody, kinda sad. but i dont think it has anything to do with the film

http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2005/09/15/20050915LNJhohbmain.html

versioncity1

11-01-2006, 04:04 PM

A few others that you maybe interested in from a British/European angle....

Gallivant - Andrew Kotting

Children Underground - Edet Belzberg

Into the arms of strangers - Mark Harris

mathiasE

11-02-2006, 03:33 AM

I reccomend an old brazilian short called Ihla Das Flores http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097564/

John Godden

11-02-2006, 11:05 PM

Some great suggestions here.

Just a couple of my faves:

Grizzly Man and Little Dieter NTF
Riding Giants
Dust to Glory

many more ....................

Oh, I thought Dogtown was great from the history/culture perspective.

JohnG

realeyz

11-07-2006, 01:38 AM

Wow, so many films I still need to see and yet a few good good ones havn't even been mentioned yet:

The End of Suburbia
Orwell Rolls in His Grave
Control Room
Outfoxxed
My Date with Drew

Timmy2006

11-10-2006, 02:58 PM

Brother's Keeper
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103888/

Sad Max

11-10-2006, 10:56 PM

Paragraph 175

When the Levess Broke

110 Kilos in 25 Weeks

Baraka

Eastside Parkway

11-13-2006, 02:04 PM

John Godden

11-13-2006, 10:32 PM

I'll watch anything that Dana Brown makes (Step Into Liquid, Dust to Glory), for the cinematography alone.

Other than that...

Persona Non Grata
Farther Than The Eye Can See
Monica in Black and White
Incident at Loch Ness
Spellbound
Everest (IMAX)

Wasn't Incident at Loch Ness .......... a mocumentry? :grin:.

BTW, the directors commentary 'extra' on the Incident DVD has THE most insane/funny diatribe by Herzog! That clip alone is worth the price of the DVD. :beer:

JohnG

Eastside Parkway

11-14-2006, 07:41 AM

Wasn't Incident at Loch Ness .......... a mocumentry? :grin:.

Yeah, but I think it still counts.

bustak

11-14-2006, 08:46 AM

I saw this mentioned earlier, but I would like to mention it too "War Photographer"
http://www.war-photographer.com/

If you're interested in shooting documentaries, this movie might make you rethink your role in the documentary process. I don't even mean that in a war type setting, just any situation where you're capturing a private moment you're not directly involved in.

pmgmedia

11-14-2006, 09:20 AM

Hospital (Frederick Wiseman, 1970)

dustino

11-14-2006, 12:42 PM

Saw "Deliver Us From Evil" last week. Very difficult subject matter, but highly recommended.

Looking forward to seeing "Iraq in Fragments" and "Cocaine Cowboys" this week, but I'm not sure I'll be able to make it if they don't carry over 'til the weekend. Unfortunately, docs often only run 1 week here due to lack of ticket sales, but I'm just happy they come here at all. Alot of markets only get docs with a proven box office history.

xray

11-14-2006, 11:51 PM

Near Death (Frederick Wiseman 1989)

This film changed my view completely, Six hours struggle with the value of life, and the peace of death.

Rico Gutter Films

11-23-2006, 03:53 PM

Control Room.

It's just...awesome.

Inexistence

11-24-2006, 12:26 PM

There's already been a number of great docs mentioned here so I'll just add my most
recent favs. I'm going to say the two Ted Koppel docs on the Discovery channel are
some of the most informative, insightful and important programs to watch if you're
an American or currently worried about the state of world affairs. Journalism in it's
finest form.

Joe_Digital

11-24-2006, 01:34 PM

John Godden

11-24-2006, 08:32 PM

If you want to see a crazy doc about the making of Beowulf & Grendel in Iceland, check out Wrath of Gods. As it relates to this thread and the business, Wrath of Gods is one of the best docs out there for behind the scenes chaos.

Joe

Thanks for the 'heads-up'.

I have ordered the original movie. Unfortunately, the doc doesn't seem to be available yet. Perhaps sometime in early 07 according to their web site.

Regards
JohnG

Pierre Petit

11-25-2006, 12:32 AM

The ring of fire by the blair brothers, Two brothers spent 10 years wondering troughout indonesia in the 60s. Amazing stuff....

Zak Forsman

11-30-2006, 04:49 PM

robotjustin

11-30-2006, 07:59 PM

Chris Marker's Sans Soleil

http://imdb.com/title/tt0084628/

That's my hands down favorite film... Ever! I watch it every couple of months.

robotjustin

11-30-2006, 08:04 PM

Here's four of my faves:

1. Sans Soleil - Chris Marker

2. A Grin Without a Cat - Chris Marker

3. Painters Painting - Emile D'Antonio

4. An Injury to One - Travis Wilkerson

Sad Max

11-30-2006, 11:40 PM

i was a fan of bowling for Columbine. but my girlfriend, who is from Littleton Colorado, insisted that Michael Moore had misrepresented the town she grew up in. And I have to say when i went there to visit with her, my perception of the place was quite different than that represented by the film. which greatly lowered my admiration for it.

'Bowling for Columbine' is not really a documentary; there is too much that's fictionalized. And no matter how valid you may feel the film's points are, if it has to create fictional associations to make 'em, then whatever it may be, it's *not* a documentary...that said, whatever exactly it is, I think it's good...

'Baraka'

'When the Levees Broke'

'Leonard Cohen: I'm Your Man'

CallaghanFilms

12-01-2006, 01:59 AM

The Callaghan Top Ten Documentaries Of All Time List

01 That's Entertainment!
02 Frank Capra's Why We Fight Series
03 The Flight That Fought Back
04 When It Was A Game
05 Combat America
06 Nine Innings From Ground Zero
07 Brother, Can You Spare A Dime?
08 The Living Desert
09 Pumping Iron
10 Triumph of the Will

Reposted because
A I am so so fucking piss drunk right now
and
b cause none of yuz have apparently seen and/or commented on any of them wtf?

Duct Tape Films

12-01-2006, 07:05 AM

Reposted because
A I am so so poo pooing piss drunk right now
and
b cause none of yuz have apparently seen and/or commented on any of them wtf?

Seen 1,2,3,9,10, and of those if I was to choose to watch one again, It'd have to be Pumping Iron, simply for the Governator vs. The Hulk aspects. What in the world happened to Lou Ferrigno?

I don't think I posted my list, although some of the ones that makes my top ten are also top ten grossing. Not in any order whatsoever....

1) An Inconvenient Truth - Laurie David deserves an oscar if only because she made a power point presentation not only watchable, but entertaining. Regardless of someone's personal politics, you gots to give her props for doing that.

2) Bowling For Colombine - Despite how it's been portrayed, this movie poses more questions than answers, for those opposed to his politics, it is not anti-second amendment, in fact, it gives credence to the theory that "it's not guns that kill people, it's people." Or as Chris Rock says in the clip of the movie, "we don't need gun control, we need bullet control." Also solidified Moore's invented genre "editorial documentary", whereby the filmmaker interjects themselves as character, and has a central thesis they are trying to prove.

3) Fog Of War - Errol Morris, Robert McNamara, & A Camera. This guy proves that third wall does not need to exist, and has given birth to the oft used reality tv tool, the confessional camera.

4) Thin Blue Line - Errol Morris makes a movie, & gets a innocent man off death row. THAT is the power of our medium here folks.

5) Monterrey Pop - Hendrix lights his guitar on fire, The Who destroy their instruments, Ravi Shankar plays some of the meanest fastest sitar you've ever heard, and some chick named Janis busts onto the scene. Less time consuming that watching Woodstock, and more to the point to begin with.

6) Gimme Shelter - Mick's shock watching the tragedy at Altamont is worth the price of admission alone. You can actually see some kind of guilt, or responsiblity that he is feeling at that moment, rare when you can get that far into the psyche of a "superstar", let alone a celebrity, and see them just as an empathic person.

7) Hoop Dreams - Best sports documentary ever

8) NFL Films - Okay, not very specific, but some of the best documentary footage EVER caught on film, and always ahead of the curve. ESPN & NFL Network plays some of the oldie but goodies. "NFL Replay" actually uses NFL Films' slo-mos for their instant replays in their reader's digest version game broadcasts of the week.

9) Crumb - Creepy. And creepy. Did I mention creepy?

10) Seven Up series - What are they up to now, something like 49-Up?

Sad Max

12-01-2006, 09:08 PM

2) Bowling For Colombine - Despite how it's been portrayed, this movie poses more questions than answers, for those opposed to his politics, it is not anti-second amendment, in fact, it gives credence to the theory that "it's not guns that kill people, it's people." Or as Chris Rock says in the clip of the movie, "we don't need gun control, we need bullet control." Also solidified Moore's invented genre "editorial documentary", whereby the filmmaker interjects themselves as character, and has a central thesis they are trying to prove.
Doesn't the fact that there are staged events (portrayed as real events), and events misrepresented as happening at times and places other than where they actually happened, and real places, misrepresented as places they aren't, bump 'Columbine' into some category other than 'doumentary?'

Seems one of the most basic qualities of what makes a documentary, is that it accurately documents what's being shown, instead of using what's shown in a misrepresentative and fundamentally dishonest fashion.

sean90291

12-01-2006, 10:21 PM

Seen 1,2,3,9,10, and of those if I was to choose to watch one again, It'd have to be Pumping Iron, simply for the Governator vs. The Hulk aspects. What in the world happened to Lou Ferrigno?

I see Lou Ferrigno at a gym I go to in Venice CA all the time. He looks exactly the same. He's still massively muscular and doesn't look a day older than his days as the Hulk. Not sure how he's pulled that off but...

Duct Tape Films

12-02-2006, 09:04 AM

Doesn't the fact that there are staged events (portrayed as real events), and events misrepresented as happening at times and places other than where they actually happened, and real places, misrepresented as places they aren't, bump 'Columbine' into some category other than 'doumentary?'

Seems one of the most basic qualities of what makes a documentary, is that it accurately documents what's being shown, instead of using what's shown in a misrepresentative and fundamentally dishonest fashion.

It bumps BFC into a subgenre which has been refered to as "editorial documentary", although many of these "dubunkers" have themselves since been debunked - but I'll keep my post on the topic of the medium for the most part here, and not that subject, that's for off DVXUser expoloration. It would posit that many of the documentaries on say, the History Channel, are less engaged with being pure documentaries as well, what with their "reenactments" and such. If you want to be purist, then nothing but verite documentaries are exclusively pure, and even at that, they only as pure as your subject's actions on camera, the very presence of which colors reality, and subsequent editorial decisions. A voiceover, in some documentary circles, is an outrage in and of itself - daring to tell the viewer HOW to watch your movie. The nerve of some people, yet that's 99% of docs right now. The documentary, just like narrative film, is a constantly growing form of expression. To exclude a film from the macrogenre on the basis that it doesn't hit on every tenet is intellectually dishonest. What are the tenets? Truth? "Truth" is elusive, and quite subjective, even when purely striving for it, so that cannot be the only measure of validity. I would venture, just like a narrative, that "emotion" is far more important.

Sad Max

12-03-2006, 12:59 AM

Duct Tape Films

12-04-2006, 09:53 AM

I don't find elusive, the concept that showing an image of something, and deliberately and unambiguously and deceptively identifying it as something else, in order to reinforce a point you'd like to make, is dishonest - and is not an accurate documentation of what it purports to document.

That part is pretty plain and simple.

Re-enactments that are clearly and obviously presented as re-enactments, are irrelevant to that matter. Voice-overs are irrelevant to that matter. Subtleties of "Truth" are not the issue; overt and obvious and deliberate lies and misrepresentation are the issue, and while there might somewhere be a place for deliberate lies and misrepresentation, that place is not in a work presented as a documentary.

The above reminds me of Herr Doktor Goebbel's principle of "Poetic Truth;" that is, a greater truth, a more important truth, that must be presented, and justifies the telling of any number of falsehoods, to cover up the inconvenient fact that the 'poetic truth' doesn't stand or come across on its own merit.

How many times have you been watching a period narrative film, and then out of freaking nowhere, you spot some kind of car that is time inappropriate, or a figure of speech is used that isn't right for the time? Are those lies? Here's the thing about Moore's movies, for all the "lies" in them, or at least the charges of such hurdled at him, there has not been, nor will there be, a single successful libel or slander suit brought. Why? Because he's accurate, and it would hold up in court as "truth". Now maybe it might not be the "truth", but that is subjective, and again, even the very presence of a camera eliminates all posibility of "truth" - the second you hit record, something is outside the frame - hence, no "truth".

This is just from a business standpoint, but let's use common sense about Moore - Harvey Weinstein has WAY too much to lose to let Moore release movies chocked full of lies, and untruths, he'd simply never do it, and this is from a business standpoint alone. If the allegations were true, ALL the profits from the films could be subject to loss. IS ANYONE in their right mind going take on that kind of risk? And even if one was willing to take that kind of risk, what are the odds that their own lawyers would let them? That would be called a sucker bet in Vegas.

Futhermore, the parent companies would never let movies full of the amount of lies and untruths out their doors either, for the same exact reason. There are lawyers that go through this stuff with a fine tooth comb - nothing gets out the door without all the I's dotted and T's crossed. Disagree with the movie, fine, but question it's accuracy? - I'd question the accuracy of those questioning the accuracy first, personally. Answerable to no one but their web site regulars, and oddly enough using those very movies and their accuracy critiques for their own personal gain. Now compare that to Moore's responsibilities - investors, lawyers, producers, and Sony & Miramax. These parent companies have WAY too much to lose to let something like that out the door. They would simply not risk it over Michael Moore of all people, no freaking way. Remember these companies, for the most part, their relationship with Moore is one of "keep your enemies closer". Ain't no way they're EVER going to risk even a single cent of profit defending that guy in court, that's why his stuff that actually makes it to market is highly unimpeachable.

cinemakinoeye

12-09-2006, 02:42 AM

Only one person liked "The times of Harey Milk"? [...] I think The Times of Harvey Milk (1985, Rob Epstein) is an excellent documentary, very well crafted, and a well-deserved Oscar winner, and fortunatelly, available from Netflix.

cinemakinoeye

12-09-2006, 03:01 AM

One of the most interesting documentaries I've seen over the years is Chronicle of a Summer (1961, Edgar Morin & Jean Rouch, french title, Chronique d'un été).

Edgar Morin (a sociologist) and Jean Rouch (an anthropologist) set forth to make a film with a "real aesthetic" that resulted in the first film to be labeled as cinema verite. The film is highly self-reflexive and asks questions about itself and questions the very possibility of making a cinema verite film. Towards the end of the film Morin and Rouch film the subjects talking about the film after they have watched the film. The subjects reflect on how much they were acting for the camera vs. being themselves. In the final scene the filmmakers talk between themselves how difficult it is to film the truth. At once it's the first cinema verite film and a critique of cinema verite that puts forth the challenges and issues that we continue to debate to this day.

Unfortunatelly the film is hard for american viewers to see, since it has not been released for the U.S. home video market.

JBurkey

12-14-2006, 02:32 PM

1. The Secret (not for it's filmic qualities, but for content and the effect on my life and others)
2. Harlan County, USA
3. The Qatsi films (visuals/sound off the hook)

jabdul

12-20-2006, 04:07 PM

1. Hacking Democracy

akonachute

12-20-2006, 04:41 PM

Duct Tape Films

12-21-2006, 09:40 AM

1. Hacking Democracy

God bless Bev Harris, and she was later proven to be in "the right", but in my opinion, she comes off as a quack, which makes her message, as accurate as it might be, less believable. Her skills of persuasion, or lack thereof, in my opinion seriously hampered what should not have been a backburner issue. What should have been priority number one after the 2004, and a geniune concern, instead became classified as "conspiracy theory" by most people, that is until Robert Kennedy Jr., and that Harvard professor came forward and cooberated her story late this year. In the days following the 2004 election, she was howling into the wind in such a way that made even those who wanted to believe that some issues were at play in Ohio couldn't, because she came off as, simply unbelievable. I really thank her for what she's done, but I wish that she wasn't the face of this effort. Seems she forgot the axiom of coming off as honest, when telling the truth - BREATHE between sentences.

Bus No. 8

12-22-2006, 12:48 PM

I'm wondering why no one has said anything about My Architect! Amazing.... as well as Bright Leaves, Same River Twice and Into Great Silence.

just some more to throw out there

Dogtown and Z-Boys and Joe Kid on a Stringray are awesome as well

A. Hobbs

Hey, I mentioned both My Architect and Same River Twice! (page 5) Love both of them. Haven't seen your other suggestions yet, thought. I'll have to check them out.

David Jimerson

12-22-2006, 01:06 PM

Why? Because he's accurate, and it would hold up in court as "truth".

No. As a lawyer and someone who's very, very well-versed in the subject matter of the film, I can only say "wrong" and "wrong." There is a long, long list of glaring and in many cases deliberate inaccuracies, and no, it would not hold up as "truth" in court.

Libel/slander suits would be unsuccessful, though, not because of the "truth" in the film, but because those who would have a case would either not have the resources to prosecute the case against Moore's superior resources (now, how's THAT for irony?), or because the person in question is a public figure, and for public figures, you have the added burden of proving actual malice, which is almost impossible to prove.

Duct Tape Films

12-23-2006, 07:28 AM

No. As a lawyer and someone who's very, very well-versed in the subject matter of the film, I can only say "wrong" and "wrong." There is a long, long list of glaring and in many cases deliberate inaccuracies, and no, it would not hold up as "truth" in court.

Libel/slander suits would be unsuccessful, though, not because of the "truth" in the film, but because those who would have a case would either not have the resources to prosecute the case against Moore's superior resources (now, how's THAT for irony?), or because the person in question is a public figure, and for public figures, you have the added burden of proving actual malice, which is almost impossible to prove.

I don't know whether you saw this the other day, but remember that soldier who was suing Moore because he didn't like his portrayal in F 9/11, saying that he didn't give permission for his footage to be use that way? The case was thrown out, thank goodness - because that could have spelled the end of documentaries as we know them had it been allowed to continue. Moore had purchased rights from NBC, who had obviously secured all rights to the footage, including synch. This soldier was contending that he didn't like the way his footage was sandwiched in between other pieces of the footage that gave the impression that he didn't like Bush. Court says nope, you don't have editorial rights over someone else's movie. It's a good day for American filmmakers.

I have to disagree with the source of the libel/slander claims though, at least in regard to "Bowling For Colombine". The majority of them, if you trace them back far enough, are coming from the NRA leadership, who obviously have deep enough pockets to go toe to toe with Moore if they chose to do so. The money is not the issue, the lack of any case is. What's funny about all this is really the effect of the movie should have been to their liking, as it sparked a change in my own personal stance on gun control, as well did many other liberals I know - that it's NOT the solution to our gun problems. But that's another discussion for another day.

The thing about his movies, really is they're most effective when they are asking questions (Bowling For Colombine, Roger & Me) instead of providing answers (F 9/11, The Big One). Many viewers are unable to distinguish the difference, even within mainstream media news sources - hence a general confusion as to what he as actually said. My point is that he should not be held up to this kind of nonsense outside scrutiny any more than ANY other documentary filmmaker previous, simply because the very presence of a camera eliminates the possibility of 100% truth to begin with. As documentarian myself, I think it's intellectually lazy to think for a second that if I've seen a documentary on the subject, it is equivalent to reseach in other formats or mediums, or even the research that was done in preparation to the film, yet that seems to be the problem many folks are having with his films - that they can't count on them for all sides of an argument - but he's more like the editorial page, not the AP wire. That's simply not his job, it's the viewers. They're movies for cripes sakes, entertainment; perhaps with a certain bent and method of delivery. As for the folks that would go on to say his movies aren't documentaries, that's freaking silly and pure semantics, and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences would vehemently disagree.

David Jimerson

12-23-2006, 08:40 AM

I don't know whether you saw this the other day, but remember that soldier who was suing Moore because he didn't like his portrayal in F 9/11, saying that he didn't give permission for his footage to be use that way? The case was thrown out, thank goodness - because that could have spelled the end of documentaries as we know them had it been allowed to continue. Moore had purchased rights from NBC, who had obviously secured all rights to the footage, including synch. This soldier was contending that he didn't like the way his footage was sandwiched in between other pieces of the footage that gave the impression that he didn't like Bush. Court says nope, you don't have editorial rights over someone else's movie. It's a good day for American filmmakers.
This has nothing to do with truth or falsity; it's about image rights.

The majority of them, if you trace them back far enough, are coming from the NRA leadership, who obviously have deep enough pockets to go toe to toe with Moore if they chose to do so.
And they are public figures, especially Heston. See above.

My point is that he should not be held up to this kind of nonsense outside scrutiny any more than ANY other documentary filmmaker previous
He's not. He's held to the same standards and it's his movies which come up short. As for the intensity of it, well, what other "documentary" filmmaker puts so much effort into promoting himself and his work? He invited the intensity of scrutiny through the intensity of his publicity.

but he's more like the editorial page, not the AP wire.
Yes. Which is why what he makes aren't documentaries.

They're movies for cripes sakes, entertainment; perhaps with a certain bent and method of delivery.
Again, that's why they're not documentaries.

Do you have a definition of "editorial documentary" which fits Moore's works and also doesn't fit the definition of the already-established genre of "propaganda film"?

As for the folks that would go on to say his movies aren't documentaries, that's freaking silly and pure semantics, and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences would vehemently disagree.
There was a GREAT deal of controversy over BFC being classified as a "documentary," and calls for his Oscar to be retracted, and from within the Academy.

Duct Tape Films

12-23-2006, 10:08 AM

It does not imply truth, correct, but what it does imply is that mere disagreement with content or it's manner of presentation is also a matter of opinion, and that the filmmaker's rights in doing creating their works is more important than the subject's rights in agreeing with their manner of representation, especially if they assigned transferable rights, as he did in this case.

Agreed, that Moses is quite a public figure, however, Heston is not the only voice of the NRA leadership or membership, and their concern apparently has not been with how HE persay was represented, as the burden is so high as you have noted, but rather the portrayal of the image of the organization as a whole.

Placing yourself into the arc of your story does appear to have quite a few certain disadvantages, as journalists from Edward R. Murrow to Ed Bradley to John Stossel have found as well. Content that challenges a viewers precepts or worldview may be seen as partisan from those in disagreement, even if it is walking the line, or only answering the 5 W's, & 1 H, or in the case of "Bowling For Colombine", only asking them. My argument is there is as much editorial influence one has by what the camera is seeing and not seeing, and what gets left on the cutting room floor, therefore no other documentary should be exempt from this type of truth puritanism, even cinema verite' classics, as to me personally, to expect "truth", is to not understand the medium. A "truth", perhaps, but THE "truth" - not so much.

Show me a documentary that hasn't had the viewpoint of the filmmaker injected into it in some way, either overtly, or covertly, and I'll show you a film still seeking funding. For me, propaganda implies a bully pulpit, and also implies a hidden agenda, neither of which Moore has, as even with the reach of his films it is but a fraction of the populus at large, and I'm sure you'll agree, there is certainly NOTHING covert about his personal politics. Therefore the term "propaganda film" doesn't fit the bill. I'd liken him to the filmic equivalent of a William Safire (although he'd certainly take exception to THAT comparison), an editorialist who doesn't have ANY intention of giving the impression of "covering both sides", and therefore should be exempt from such expectation. I guess the baggage of opinion being overt, overarching, and present, would be what sets apart an "editorial documentary" versus a "propaganda film" in my mind. Are you being tricked, or are they up front with their agenda? My guess is, at this point, he doesn't make movies to change minds, it's more a matter of preaching to the choir. You gotta know your audience, and it's clear he does.

As for entertainment being why something isn't a documentary, then I guess the Academy really started screwing that up back in 1970 when they let "Woodstock" take home the award, didn't they? To use that as an example, a view was espoused in that film, quite overtly, that what they were doing was in the right. Moore is doing nothing new, if that be the guide. Did that film tell the whole message of Woodstock - give the obvious foretelling of what was obvious to come a few short months later at Altamont - the grinding halt of the peace and love movement? No, they painted the rosiest picture of the hippie community they possibly could, being hippies themselves. And just cause there wasn't a fat guy in a ball cap to guide you through the picture didn't mean it was any less pronounced of a point of view.

David Jimerson

12-23-2006, 11:17 AM

the filmmaker's rights in doing creating their works is more important than the subject's rights in agreeing with their manner of representation, especially if they assigned transferable rights, as he did in this case.
No one argued with that.

Agreed, that Moses is quite a public figure, however, Heston is not the only voice of the NRA leadership or membership, and their concern apparently has not been with how HE persay was represented, as the burden is so high as you have noted, but rather the portrayal of the image of the organization as a whole.
Everyone else in the NRA leadership would fall under "public figure," too.

Placing yourself into the arc of your story does appear to have quite a few certain disadvantages, as journalists from Edward R. Murrow to Ed Bradley to John Stossel have found as well. Content that challenges a viewers precepts or worldview may be seen as partisan from those in disagreement, even if it is walking the line, or only answering the 5 W's, & 1 H, or in the case of "Bowling For Colombine", only asking them. My argument is there is as much editorial influence one has by what the camera is seeing and not seeing, and what gets left on the cutting room floor, therefore no other documentary should be exempt from this type of truth puritanism, even cinema verite' classics, as to me personally, to expect "truth", is to not understand the medium. A "truth", perhaps, but THE "truth" - not so much.

Show me a documentary that hasn't had the viewpoint of the filmmaker injected into it in some way, either overtly, or covertly, and I'll show you a film still seeking funding. For me, propaganda implies a bully pulpit, and also implies a hidden agenda, neither of which Moore has, as even with the reach of his films it is but a fraction of the populus at large, and I'm sure you'll agree, there is certainly NOTHING covert about his personal politics. Therefore the term "propaganda film" doesn't fit the bill. I'd liken him to the filmic equivalent of a William Safire (although he'd certainly take exception to THAT comparison), an editorialist who doesn't have ANY intention of giving the impression of "covering both sides", and therefore should be exempt from such expectation. I guess the baggage of opinion being overt, overarching, and present, would be what sets apart an "editorial documentary" versus a "propaganda film" in my mind. Are you being tricked, or are they up front with their agenda? My guess is, at this point, he doesn't make movies to change minds, it's more a matter of preaching to the choir. You gotta know your audience, and it's clear he does.

As for entertainment being why something isn't a documentary, then I guess the Academy really started screwing that up back in 1970 when they let "Woodstock" take home the award, didn't they? To use that as an example, a view was espoused in that film, quite overtly, that what they were doing was in the right. Moore is doing nothing new, if that be the guide. Did that film tell the whole message of Woodstock - give the obvious foretelling of what was obvious to come a few short months later at Altamont - the grinding halt of the peace and love movement? No, they painted the rosiest picture of the hippie community they possibly could, being hippies themselves. And just cause there wasn't a fat guy in a ball cap to guide you through the picture didn't mean it was any less pronounced of a point of view.
Look, as Sad Max pointed out, once you recreate a scene and present it as reality instead of clearly saying it's a recreation, your work stops being a documentary and turns into something else.

You say it's an "editorial documentary," but I still say you can't come up with a definition of that which doesn't also fit the definition of "propaganda film," all of which have a rather overt viewpoint being espoused. Else, they wouldn't be much good as propaganda.

You're a fan of MM. Whatever. Free country. All anybody here is saying is that what he makes aren't documentaries, especially BFC or F9/11. No one's saying he doesn't have the right to do whatever he wants. The disagreement comes only in what it is that his works are.

Anyway, this has probably gone well beyond DVXuser's kibosh on discussing Michael Moore, so say whatever you have to say to wrap up and we'll leave it at that.

CallaghanFilms

12-23-2006, 11:44 AM

Duct Tape Films

12-23-2006, 12:35 PM

MM...I loathe that assclown,

...and something that pisses me off to no end is the fact that he didn't have the common goddamn courtesy to ask permission from Ray Bradbury (a true American literary legend, mind you) to use the title, a reference to the timeless classic Fahrenheit 451. Then, the fat poo poo wouldn't even return Mr. Bradbury's calls, upon his finding out.

No class...no class at all

I tried Googling that, I wasn't aware of that - now THERE would have been a winnable lawsuit, odd one wasn't brought. Do you have an article? All I found was some thread on some site where this was mentioned, but I find no active links to any sources. Personally, I didn't like that movie as compared to other stuff he had done before, that year "The Fog Of War" was certainly a WAY better film (was same year right?).

Sad Max

12-23-2006, 12:52 PM

How many times have you been watching a period narrative film, and then out of freaking nowhere, you spot some kind of car that is time inappropriate, or a figure of speech is used that isn't right for the time? Are those lies?

No, those are errors. I'm mildly baffled as to where you are trying to go, with that...you're pointing to a mistake made during the production of a work of fiction, presented as a work of fiction, to an audience that walked in the door based upon the promise of being shown a work of fiction, and then suggesting that there is some connection between that, and deliberate, calculated lies inserted into a work promoted as a documentary, presented to an audience which walked in the door having been told to expect a work that was constructed to document real events and present accurate, truthful information.

For example, when a narrative film set in a 1925 canning plant includes a scene where the camera goes too wide and you catch a glimpse of a modern rocket assembly-line in the background, that's an error. When a documentary filmmaker shows you footage of a rocket plant whose products are used solely for launching satellites, and tells you that the plant is used to produce rockets for delivering military warheads, in an effort to draw a connection between a destructive militaristic product being produced in the factory and a violent tragic episode in a nearby community, that's a lie.

Here's the thing about Moore's movies, for all the "lies" in them,
Your use of quotation marks is intrinsically dishonest, all by itself. Deliberately presenting as falsehood as truth, is a lie, no qualifiers or quotations marks required. And Moore's decision to repeatedly present falsehoods as truths, is well-documented.

or at least the charges of such hurdled at him, there has not been, nor will there be, a single successful libel or slander suit brought. Why? Because he's accurate, and it would hold up in court as "truth".
Well, this has already been well-addressed by someone with better qualifications on all things legal, than mine. There are plenty of reasons why libel/slander suits don't get brought, and the presumption that "it's all true" must be the reason here, is lazy and simplistic.

Now maybe it might not be the "truth", but that is subjective,
If a ball is red, and someone who knows that it is red, tells you that the ball is green, to suit his particular purpose, then he's not telling you the truth. If someone tells you that a given interview happened on a given time and in a given place, when it really happened in a different time and at a different place, to suit his particular purpose, then he's not telling you the truth. If someone tells you that you can walk into a bank any old time and casually walk out with a brand-new rifle, a few minutes later, when in fact you can't, to suit his particular purpose, then he's not telling you the truth, either.

And when someone is deliberately telling you something which is not-the-truth, while claiming that what he's telling you *is* the truth...he's lying.

and again, even the very presence of a camera eliminates all posibility of "truth" - the second you hit record, something is outside the frame - hence, no "truth".

This is basically the kind of nonsense I came across in various film-and-media theory courses at the graduate and undergraduate level, back in school. It's like suggesting that, if you take a snapshot of your grandma in her living room, but the frame cuts out most of the room, and her house, and her street, and her neighborhood, and her city, and the state in which the city exists, and the continent it's on, and the planet Earth itself, well, then, that snapshot isn't really an authentic document representing your grandma. Of course it's an authentic document representing your grandma, within the limitations of the frame. Just as the content of the documentary "frame" can be an accurate representation of the truth of what is contained, within that frame.

This is just from a business standpoint, but let's use common sense about Moore - Harvey Weinstein has WAY too much to lose to let Moore release movies chocked full of lies, and untruths, he'd simply never do it, and this is from a business standpoint alone.
And yet, there the lies and untruths are, plain to see. It's not about the degree to which a work contains untruths; it's about the degree to which the releasing entity figures they can expect to get away with it. I suspect that a fellow of Harvey Weinstein's experience and intellect, has a pretty well-tuned sense of what he can get away with.

"Chock-full" of lies and untruths, isn't the point, either. A few well-placed and carefully-constructed lies and untruths, are bad enough, and disqualify the work from being fairly labeled as a 'documentary.'

Futhermore, the parent companies would never let movies full of the amount of lies and untruths out their doors either, for the same exact reason. There are lawyers that go through this stuff with a fine tooth comb - nothing gets out the door without all the I's dotted and T's crossed.

Forgive me, but that's plain ignorant, which is not intended to give offense, but it's the only word that fits. Why, just last year I was on a very expensive studio feature film, that was beat-for-beat recognizably taken from an earlier, lower-budget work, without permission. And it wound up going to a lawsuit, all because the lawyers in whom you place such faith either (a) failed to cross and dot as they should have, and/or (b) figured that the studio would get away with it. Studios don't just keep attorneys on retainer to cross-and-dot; they keep them around to argue in court when the cross-and-dot isn't properly performed.

Disagree with the movie, fine, but question it's accuracy? - I'd question the accuracy of those questioning the accuracy first, personally.
I do. And the people who point out Moore's fabrications support their positions very well, indeed. A fair amount of this is absolute black-and-white, and comes directly from the very people appearing in, for example, 'Bowling for Columbine,' who can back up their assertions with documentation going back years.

If you are unwilling to tolerate any questioning of Moore's accuracy and truthfulness, it suggests that you are so predisposed to accepting his conclusions that you don't care whether or not the path leading there is straight, or crooked.

Answerable to no one but their web site regulars, and oddly enough using those very movies and their accuracy critiques for their own personal gain. Now compare that to Moore's responsibilities - investors, lawyers, producers, and Sony & Miramax. These parent companies have WAY too much to lose to let something like that out the door.

And yet...Moore depicts walking into a bank and walking out with a new rifle, over-the-counter, as though the bank can or would permit that to really happen under non-staged conditions - which by law and policy they can't, didn't, and don't. Talk about 'web-site-regulars' to your heart's content, but Moore still showed something staged for the camera, that an actual customer couldn't have done, informing us that yes, an actual average customer *could* have done it. Another lie. And somehow, it remains a lie, even with Sony and Miramax having lawyers and investors, and all. And there are many other such lies in the film, that remain lies, no matter how much you feel the parent companies may have, to lose.
They would simply not risk it over Michael Moore of all people, no freaking way. Remember these companies, for the most part, their relationship with Moore is one of "keep your enemies closer". Ain't no way they're EVER going to risk even a single cent of profit defending that guy in court, that's why his stuff that actually makes it to market is highly unimpeachable.
I think at this point it's reasonable to ask for your CV, so as to determine whether your unswerving conviction in the competence and rule of lawyers and the absolute risk-negation of studios is based in personal and direct experience, or merely semi-informed opinion. I've spent enough years working around copyright-and-clearance, and receiving legal-department notes and directives, and discussing what-can-we-get-away-with, with producers on some fairly large projects, that I would like to see that your perspective is rooted in at least an equivalent degree of first-hand experience.

And, your post above regarding Ray Bradbury's complaint, contains an admission that, yes, in fact those vaunted lawyers and their oh-so-careful studio clients, do indeed leave openings for lawsuits, and let things fall through the cracks. So I guess we can ditch the whole business about "they'd never do such things/they're much too careful," right now.

Isaac_Brody

12-23-2006, 01:42 PM

Isaac's Top Ten Documentary List

1. Titticut Follies
2. Sans Soleil
3. The Mystery of Picasso
4. Nanook of the North
5. Gimme Shelter
6. Salesmen
7. Sherman's March
8. American Movie
9. Triumph of the Will
10. H-2 Worker

Duct Tape Films

12-23-2006, 02:56 PM

Sad Max,

I guess my point is, the expectation of truth should not be higher for a documentary, as the hand of the filmmaker, even those short documentaries on Jackson Pollack, only reveal a sliver of truth, if that. I think the expectation of truth from the medium is what suckers people into believing what they were seeing on reality shows like "The Restaurant" was REALITY, or not staged in ways. And it's not a matter of lowering the bar for truth, it's correcting the misconception that somehow documentaries of yore, "High School" for instance, had more truth to them. In my opinion, the Ben Kenobi rule applys - "It is the truth, from a certain point of view", and that, within this medium, is about the best we can strive to offer a viewer. I'll inject the word of the year here - "truthiness". I'm not of the opinion that you can't have a picture of your grandma that fairly represents her, it's just the one picture does not give me an accurate reading of who she was, how she was feeling, if she was faking the smile or not, and I don't expect to garner that information from a single picture. It seems to me that people are expecting exactly those types of specific factiods from documentaries these days, in order to qualify as a "documentary".

Fact is, in the last five years at the very least, the acceptance of the documentary in the marketplace has placed unreasonable expectations on to what a documentary actually is, and what it can actually deliver. At it's best, it should be a launching pad for a viewer's further exploration and/or discussion into a subject, that's all the time there really is, unless you happen to be so lucky to be Ken Burns. At it's worst (in my opinion F 9/11) it actually shuts down conversation. Right now we have fiction movies are incorporating documentary elements, and vice versa, and the line is getting thinner and thinner. Really it's all for the better of the medium, although it may be hard to see that right now. It's like sitting down with the paper or a non-fiction book. We've been taught not to believe everything we read. Why should a higher standard be placed on a medium that doesn't even have the same luxury as print does with footnotes or day after corrections?

There are many people that don't KNOW about or have never SEEN a documentary that doesn't have a voiceover, for instance - they think it's incomplete without one. They think documentary, and they think that they are going to have the equivalent of a tour guide through the film. Saying a particular type of filmmaker who does just that isn't making documentaries is a little like saying rap isn't music, but there are cinema verite' purists who do just that, as silly as it sounds. As filmmakers, it makes one better to not only know your likes, but your dislikes as well, because even within those, you may find a techinque you like, or find your own style that is diametrically opposed to the one you don't like, content be damned. Me personally, I prefer the old school DA Pennebaker style when shooting, fly on the wall, little interference with story as possible, it most suits my personality. Also, these days, that style almost seems fresh, what with almost every other documentarian injecting themselves as a character in their films.

Duct Tape Films

12-23-2006, 02:57 PM

hatsoff2halford

12-29-2006, 07:51 PM

I'm late on responding to this...but, I just watched a documentary on Ray Johnson called How to Draw a Bunny, and it was amazing. I really enjoyed it.

Awesome doc, go watch it : )

J.R. Hudson

12-29-2006, 09:43 PM

NewYorkLion

12-29-2006, 10:07 PM

Not sure if I mentioned this in an earlier post but 'The devil in daniel johnston' is a killer doc. last night i watched 'shadow company' about private military contractors in iraq, also pretty good.

chromeboy007

01-12-2007, 07:43 PM

try this:
\

David Jimerson

01-12-2007, 07:50 PM

I axed your post the first time for a reason (and hoped that it would be obvious enough why). No 9/11 conspiracy theory bandying here. No politics.

NC17z

01-12-2007, 07:54 PM

Tarnation
http://www.wellspring.com/movies/text.html?movie_id=56&page=synopsis&sidebar=388

chromeboy007

01-12-2007, 08:03 PM

I axed your post the first time for a reason (and hoped that it would be obvious enough why). No 9/11 conspiracy theory bandying here. No politics.

I thought I forgot to click "submit reply"!

I agree 100%... but the film is not about conspiracy, it's about science; most of the film is about melting steel, controlled demolition, etc. it gives little or no insight into who might or might not be behind it.

but regardless I understand. I won't post any more links to these 9/11 mysteries videos any more.

TheMacB

01-13-2007, 03:45 PM

Lost In La Mancha. god, its like a filmmaker's nightmare. poor terry.

jpeck

01-13-2007, 07:51 PM

I can't remember the name nor the country it took place in, but it was about street kids and their lives. I mean kids, the age ranged from 6-12. The way some of the kids spoke was stunning, wisdom way beyond their years. I know it is silly not to remember the name or even the country (somewhere in eastern Europe), so if anyone knows what I am talking about, please post the name.

John Godden

01-14-2007, 10:16 PM

I'll add another good doc to my previous list:
'Tell Them Who You Are'. Doc/home-movie (by Mark..... his son) about Haskell Wexler and the father/son stuff that went on between them.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005549/

No, it's NOT the 'best' doc ever made, but it is definately worth seeing. It's an especially relevant film for the film-maker/DP's on this board............... and also anyone interested in the dynamics of father-son relationships.

BTW, Haskell does a WONDERFUL job of commentary on the DVD 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf'. Well worth seeing the DVD with the commentary turned ON.

Regards
JohnG

Blaine

01-14-2007, 10:57 PM

I'm going to add a couple more to Ken Burns movies I listed earlier:

The Last Waltz (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0077838/)
Heartworn Highways (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0405963/)
A History of Britain (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0273359/)
The Story of English (http://yoursay.imdb.com/title/tt0198245/)

agwah

01-14-2007, 11:44 PM

SPZ

01-15-2007, 01:33 AM

I liked Michael Moore's docs. Not great in cinematography, but trully powerfull stuff. And there's no such thing as a n Objective docummentary. As long as you point a camera to something, you are immediately doing a subjective POV. Kuddos for Michael Moore for assuming himself and doing his research. I don't see him in jail, if he's so wrong on what he says...

EDIT- Oops, seems like Dead End Films already explained this better than I did. :)

David Jimerson

01-15-2007, 09:15 AM

You don't go to jail for libel or slander.

XCheck

01-15-2007, 06:24 PM

You don't go to jail for libel or slander.No comment. :beer:

David Jimerson

01-15-2007, 06:39 PM

No comment. :beer:

You know what I'm talking about, Jerry . . . :2vrolijk_08:

XCheck

01-15-2007, 06:45 PM

You know what I'm talking about, Jerry . . . :2vrolijk_08:Yes sir.:lipsrseal :banned:

John Godden

01-15-2007, 09:37 PM

Just saw this a few minutes ago, it was so powerful that I didn't want to sleep right after. A film about the great cinematographer Haskell Wexler made by his son Mark Wexler.

http://www.tellthemwhoyouare.com/intro.htm

Couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:. Very powerful film!

BTW, did you view the 'specials' on the DVD? Really ties the whole subject together.

JohnG

agwah

01-15-2007, 10:37 PM

Couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:. Very powerful film!

BTW, did you view the 'specials' on the DVD? Really ties the whole subject together.

JohnG

yes it is a must to watch the father watching the movie about himself