Great Antiwar Films

[volcano]

Here is my personal favorites:
1-COME AND SEE (I dont think there will be any better than this one...)
2- All Quiet on the Western Front
3-Paths of Glory
4-Dr Strangelove
5-King of Hearts
6-Human Condition 1,2,3
7-Big Wednesday
8-Born on the Fourth of July
9-Full Metal Jacket
10-Hiroshima Mon Amour
Any more ladies & gentleman? (Antiwar fim: Doesnt glorify heroism, battle, violence(although may contain horrific images), and humanistic in nature...So please dont post Apocalypse Now, Platoon etc)

[Hairy Lime]

1. Apocalypse Now
2. Platoon
3. Deer Hunter
4. Saving Private Ryan
5. The Thin Red Line

Seriously, the only good war movies are anti-war movies. You really think Coppola and Stone didn't have anti-war agendas when they made Apocalypse or Platoon?

[volcano]

Hairy,
Here are some facts about Apocalypse Now:
"The project (Apo. Now) was conceived by Milius as a right wing corrective to what he saw as the unfair treatment doled out to Col Robert Rheault, who was court martialled for ordering the summary execution of a Vietnemase spy...As it evolved, eventually with script input from Coppola himself, the film attained a level of moral ambiguity as tyhe right wing views of Milius were filtered through the mor liberal vision of the director.." Karl French
I love that film (Brando is great), but it is about 'justified' madness war brings... Dont you get the message at the end? 'Exterminate them all.. Drop the bomb" They mean A-Bomb, just like the one happened in Hiroshima...
As for Platoon and Deer Hunter: they are structured around charecters, (therefore focused on individual choises) rather than concept of humanity aspect of it... And when you watch those movies, you feel like getting involved, have your share of heroism etc...
Saving Private Ryan, Same above, plus had a dangerous message: Forgiving is deadly...(German soldier they released had a central role in killing some protaganists..) Personal sacrifice, honoring duty and all those brainwashing...
I'll take Thin Red Line...;)) (I need to see it again)

[J.R. Hudson]

I agree Hairy

Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan, The Thin Red Line, We Were Soldiers, Black Hawk Down, Casulaties of War, Hamburger Hill, Enemy at the Gates, Schindlers List .....

When was the last film about War that actually glorified it anyway ? War sucks, but there are still heroes and glory, and there is nothign wrong with that

Volcano

Those are your perceptions

Those films do not glorify war at all. Not for me anyway.

[Stas_Tagios]

Gallipoli
Platoon
Full Metal Jacket
Paths of Glory
The Red and the White
Ballad of a Soldier
Apocalypse Now

[volcano]

Hudson,
Do you see any difference between:
Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now...?

[J.R. Hudson]

Gallipoli


Love that film Stas!

-



Hudson,
Do you see any difference between:
Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now...?


Plenty and the same, why ?

[volcano]

Stas,
Good ones..Red -White, Before Kubrick there was Miklos Jancso ;))
(mis-en-scene)

[volcano]

Plenty and the same, why ?
Answer will be the difference between 'a broader antiwar theme' and the theme of 'Apo Now'

[jpeck]

Das Boot
Day the Earth Stood Still

[volcano]

Those are your perceptions

Those films do not glorify war at all. Not for me anyway.
I agree... I guess it is all personal...Taste, perception, where you stand, PK Gillock would call it 'conditioning' :)

[volcano]

Das Boot
Day the Earth Stood Still
Time to see the 'Das Boot'...Saw all his movies except that one...

[J.R. Hudson]

The Answer ?

I presume you are the one with this answer that most of us are missing ? Go ahead and enlighten, I'm all ear's ! I'm not flamin ya'

I'm curious what light you can shed for us

-

FMJ was based on this novel:

http://www.gustavhasford.com/short.htm

It is excellent.

-

Apacalypse now is based (loosely) on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad.


-

I don't know

Neither glorify war

Who is PK Gillock ?

[Jeremy Ordan]

I'm amazed no one mentioned 'Forest Gump'

I found the entire concept of war in that movie to be one of the main themes, that and if you run long enough you'll get laid...

-Jeremy

[J.R. Hudson]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Nice one Jeremy!

[volcano]

Who is PK Gillock ?
Gillock is the monk DVX user from Thailand, if i remember his name correct? So i assume he is a buddhist, and buddhist approach our perception as 'conditioned'...That is 'assumptive, shaped by learned prejudice...

[volcano]

you'll get laid...
and be rich too ;)

[Blaine]

Gillock is the monk DVX user from Thailand
Bwahahaha:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[volcano]

The Answer ?

I presume you are the one with this answer that most of us are missing ? Go ahead and enlighten, I'm all ear's ! I'm not flamin ya'

I'm curious what light you can shed for us
Hudson, that is tough one...Gotta think now... And Blaine welcome... You also had asked me a similar question before...

[J.R. Hudson]

Hudson, that is tough one...Gotta think now... And Blaine welcome... You also had asked me a similar question before...

Iwas serious; and too be cleqar; not baiting

I want discussion

-



buddhist approach our perception as 'conditioned'...That is 'assumptive, shaped by learned prejudice...


So their taught

[Blaine]

Who is PK Gillock ?
http://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/mrri/insh_fish/reddrum/webpics/circle4.jpg...http://www.anglersupply.com/images/models/1532.JPG and http://www.mytackle.net/images/Sinkers/TorpedoRingSinker.jpg

[Jeremy Ordan]

I think another thing you're doing is focusing on war in the traditional sense of war but here are a couple of other examples that I came up with while listening to Motley Crue (Hudson, you owe me $4 for downloads):

Post Appocolypse Effects of War:
The Matrix
The Road Warrior
Blade Runner

Foreign Wars:
The Year of Living Dangerously
Hotel Rowanda
Three Days in the Condor

US War:
Dances w/ Wolves
Glory
Gods & Generals
The Patriot (AKA: Braveheart in America but both with that anti-semite)

I think all these films have a strong anti war concept, but it all depends on how you view the war aspect.

-Jeremy

[J.R. Hudson]

LOL Blaine !

-

Awesome choices Jeremy !!

[Blaine]

Omega Man & Planet of the Apes.

[volcano]

Hudson
Full Metal Jacket: You see a bunch of kids at the beginning... Shall we call them, Uhm, innocent? They are ironed to become killers... And they do (with minor malfunction at some point ;)) You see how they are wasted, just as the Vietnamese folks are wasted on the fields... No winners, innocence is gone, lives are lost, and no resolution... Why,because there isnt resolutions at wars... YOU DO NOT FIT YOURSELF IN ANY OF THE CHARECTERS...
Apo Now: You see a bunch of psychopath killers at the beginning (in uniform) ordering 'exterminating with extreme prejudice'... PLOT is to KILL COL, whom WE ALL FEEL something strong, right about him... Throughout the movie, we meet other KILLERS who waste local folks with Wagner's opera. At this point, here is a little news from a newspaper:

BAGHDAD - U.S. troops psyched up on a bizarre musical reprise from Vietnam war film "Apocalypse Now" before crashing into Iraqi homes to hunt gunmen on Saturday, as Shi'ite Muslims rallied against the U.S. occupation of Iraq.

With Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" still ringing in their ears and the clatter of helicopters overhead, soldiers rammed vehicles into metal gates and hundreds of troops raided houses in the western city of Ramadi after sunrise as part of a drive to quell a spate of attacks on U.S. forces.
And now you tell me, IT IS NOT INSPIRING for troops...(At Jarhead, there was a scene where soldiers was watching that scene from Apo Now and cheering as the helicopters destroyed the village...

[Jeremy Ordan]

The difference with Apo Now is that the descent into madness is universal and all consuming when war is going on... the movie says, at least to me, that war sucks away the human part of us and transforms us into something more primal and lacking reason. This de-evolution spreads like a cancer, everyone in the war is infected and changes.

Then again, Pauly Shore when he starred 'In the Army Now'... that's what I'm talking about!

(Sorry, the concept of making a completely serious post bothers me too much)

-Jeremy

[MOVIE STUNTS]

PK Gillock is not a Monk, but he is in Thailand.

[volcano]

I think another thing you're doing is focusing on war in the traditional sense of war but here are a couple of other examples
Any untraditional examples are welcome... Actually you made me remember a Brit director, whose life dedicated to antiwar films:
PETER WATKINS
Anybody familiar with the name? Deserves a new thread....

[krestofre]

And now you tell me, IT IS NOT INSPIRING for troops...(At Jarhead, there was a scene where soldiers was watching that scene from Apo Now and cheering as the helicopters destroyed the village...

Apocalypse Now would only be inspiring to someone who didn't understand the film. In fact, I think that was the exact point that the scene in Jarhead was trying to make.

My two cents.

[volcano]

The difference with Apo Now is that the descent into madness is universal and all consuming when war is going on... the movie says, at least to me, that war sucks away the human part of us and transforms us into something more primal and lacking reason. This de-evolution spreads like a cancer, everyone in the war is infected and changes
very well explained...

[volcano]

Apocalypse Now would only be inspiring to someone who didn't understand the film.
Army(universal)... Has no understanding then... What a surprise...

[volcano]

PK Gillock is not a Monk, but he is in Thailand
He is a joker then??...I really thought he was a monk, he even posted some pics with monks... Blaine i got the point with those fish hooks, tx :furious3:

[volcano]

Come and See...Had to remind myself while watching; just a film,... Klimov(director) stopped making films after this... Seann Penn's one of favorites...
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/15904/1156252516.jpg
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/15904/1156252617.jpg

[volcano]

Kubrick would be still a great director if he had only done Paths of Glory... A quote from the movie:Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel...
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/15904/1156252681.jpg
It is interesting he kept working on the similar theme througout his career...
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/15904/1156253374.jpg
Transformation is complete... Brando saw it..."Horror, horror..

[Duct Tape Films]

Although not technically "anti-war", the documentary "Monterrey Pop" by DA Pennebaker did capture the essense of the outpouring of the sixties anti-war/psychedelic movement right at it's commencement. A more specifically anti-war historical documentary, "Berkeley In The Sixties", looks specifically at the student movements at the college campus referenced in the title, regarded at the time as the epicenter of the movements of not only the SDSS, but the nearby Black Panthers as well.

For more recent documentary fare, "Going Upriver", the documentary about John Kerry's relationship to the Vietnam war and subsequently the anti-war movement, for me shines a light on just how much Washington can numb your truest beliefs, going against your own better conscience when you obviously had, at least at one point, a firm, unshakable moral view; now instead triangulating to public opinion polls as opposed to listening to, and legistlating from, your heart. Just to cut off any "My team is better than your team" Pol discussions at the knees, this goes for BOTH parties.

Any discussion of recent anti-war documentaries would be remiss for not including Errol Morris' "The Fog Of War". For those of you who don't know, or care, who Robert McNamara is, if this movie were done twenty years from now, it would be as if Rumsfeld was admitting that Iraq was mistake, given that he still would even be alive. This movie is a case study in exactly HOW to make a talking head interesting for the duration of a whole feature length film. It can be done, and Errol Morris knows how. I cannot recommend it enough to those interested in doc filmmaking.

[volcano]

Duct tape,
I am looking forward to see the 'Berkeley in the 60s'...Heard a lot about Going upriver too... Last great doc on the subject i saw was 'In the Year of the Pig' by Emile de Antonio... A real gem. It is scary to see how history is repetative as they say..
'I went numb when i learnt to see' ;))
Maybe we should get a new thread for docs...
ADDED: Duct, a similar approach to doc Fog of War is 'Trials of Henry Kissinger'... Guy who made that also made one of the most important antiwar doc recently, called 'WHY WE FIGHT' (You got the allusion to original WW2 CAPRA series, i hope) It was a Sony release, but like all other important docs it just went unnoticed by the media. it is already available on DVD...

[volcano]

Apacalypse now is based (loosely) on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad.

So they say... Heart of Darkness is a book set in the Belgian congo during the 19th century. It is basically a criticism of colonialism... Only thing that is remotely transferred to Apo Now is the charecter of Mr Kurtz, who is an ivory trader living in the depth of jungle...A sailor named Marlow journeys to Congo to meet this extradionary merchant...

Nicolas Roeg made a fine movie adaptation of this book in 1994, with Tim Roth and John Malkovich...
As i mentioned it earlier JOHN MILIUS, who wrote the screenplay for Apo Now in 1969, adapted this story to support a rreal US Army Col Robert Rheault. MILIUS himself was a Californian surfer himself, who wanted to serve in NAM but rejected by the Marines because of his chronic asthma.(As a note, surfer dude Matt Johnson in the Apo now based on Lance Carson, a legendary surfer who rode th waves with Milius himself)
He had strong conservatise opinions about US involvement in NAM, and as i said earlier you can SENSE it throughout the movie. (a strong support for Col Kurtz and his atrocities, necessatity of maddness in the course of serving the great cause ) Coppola may have filtered the screenplay a lot, but the smell is there... And unfortunetely, some gung ho kids take it literally and find some a bit of ultra violence inspiration from it...
FINAL NOTE: IS IT A GOOD MOVIE? HELL YES, masterpiece. DO I CONSIDER IT a REAL ANTIWAR MOVIE? HELL NO ;))

[AloysiusK]

The Killing Fields (One of my favorites)
Coming Home (another Hal Ashby film with Jon Voight and Bruce Dern)
Grand Illusion
Darwin's Nightmare (documentary that is peripherally anti war)
The Fog of War

[volcano]

How did i forget Grand Illusion? Excellent choices, including Darwin's nightmare...
I add the 'Coming Home' into my 'films to watch' list...

[alexdias]

2 more:

"Catch 22" for tremendous irony and the complete non-sense of war.
Also, one of the first films to expose to business side of wars.

"Iron Cross" Sam Peckinpah show us the other side of WWII.
At the end he proves that for films it really doesn't matter. Very courageous.

Both are excellent films with a strong anti-war message.

[J.R. Hudson]

DO I CONSIDER IT a REAL ANTIWAR MOVIE? HELL NO ;))

Why not ? There is nothing in A.N. that supports the idea of Pro-War ..

Anyway's

What is a real Antiwar film ?

[CallaghanFilms]

Patton (both the film and the man) was against war...

And being A REALIST not living in fantasyland, it/he showed that the only way to end war is to kill the bastards who aren't (against it).

It's not all that hard of a concept to grasp IMO.

[volcano]

Why not ? There is nothing in A.N. that supports the idea of Pro-War..What is a real Antiwar film ?

Well, i tried to explain already, and any further attemp would be repeating myself... Plus, we dont have to convince one another, just enjoying throwin ideas...

it/he showed that the only way to end war is to kill the bastards who aren't (against it)
Rather bold statement Callaghan... So, do you know which bastards arent against it? :)

[CallaghanFilms]

It the case I mentioned, the bastards in question would pretty obviously/clearly be Hitler and his top brass

[volcano]

Alexis,
Yup, I agree with those 2...I think Catch 22 is a way under appreciated movie...
Watched the iron Cross few weeks ago...

[volcano]

It the case I mentioned, the bastards in question would pretty obviously/clearly be Hitler and his top brass
Ah, i was fishing for a more broader answer...

[CallaghanFilms]

sorry to disappoint...alas sometimes the answer isn't as deep-reaching or sagacious as we try to make...

Sometime simplicity does rule the day

[J.R. Hudson]

Well, i tried to explain already

Missed it.

-

I agree with Callaghan (As usual)

[volcano]

Sometime simplicity does rule the day
Those who arent against it, those who make profit from it...

[spidey]

A great anti-war film is Tae Guk Gi : The Brotherhood Of War.
http://www.asiandb.com/data/news/review/200409/taegukgi.jpg
You feel for the characters and what they they do for one another and against another to survive.

One scene I remeber is when South Korea soilders were waiting weeks for new rations ammo, and first aid... one kid who was 15 is got maggots all over him and and open wounded. he freaks out because he things that no help is coming and puts a rifle to his chin and pulls the trigger. i was like No way when i saw it.

great film and it deals with brothers... very powerful.

[spidey]

one of my favoirte films though you see no war is about warring states and it also a mystery which could lead to war if not figure out at the boarder of both korean. Chan Wook Park first commerical film and man he's been great since.

JSA
http://www.cinemastrikesback.com/news/daily/jsa10001.jpg

I cared so much for these people I didnt want anything bad to happen to them.

Both sides can be friends...

[chromeboy007]

GREAT LIST VOLCANO!! You are just about the only person here who actually offers anything worth reading to this thread. I have been meaning to check out Hiroshima Mon Amour for a while now and I'm gonna look for Come and See for sure.

Also, it's not worth your time to discuss films with anyone who is not at least somewhat well exposed to films made around the globe...

And you are absolutely correct about Apocalypse Now...

[J.R. Hudson]

You are just about the only person here who actually offers anything worth reading to this thread.

Besides you of course.

[500lb Productions]

Here's an off the wall choice for favorite anti-war movie.

Pink Floyd The Wall.

In most war themed movies, there are heroes and redemption. In The Wall, there is only the destruction of war, and its effects felt long after the fightings over.

[volcano]

A great anti-war film is Tae Guk Gi : The Brotherhood Of War
Spidey, to be honest when i saw that DVD case at the rental shelf my first thought was 'it must be a big budget propoganda movie.." like Black Hawk Down.. Very prejudiced of course, and now I am gonna watch it upon your commentary... I havent seen many Korean films, an area to explore...

I have been meaning to check out Hiroshima Mon Amour for a while now and I'm gonna look for Come and See for sure.
Chromeboy you wont regret... Resnais is another genius filmmaker, and Hiroshima is one of those films that talk to your feelings and mind in the same time...
As for your comment about discussing films, just 10 years ago i wouldnt have known any of the titles i am talknig about now. So it is a progress, it happens if it happens...
A good conversation benefits everybody...

[volcano]

Pink Floyd The Wall.
Hey 500, we dont need no education!!! :)
Yeah, great pick...

[J.R. Hudson]

like Black Hawk Down.. Very prejudiced of course

Sigh

You're just itchin for some controversey aren't ya?

-

[500lb Productions]

Hey 500, we dont need no education!!! :)
Yeah, great pick...

If there was ever an antiwar sequence it has to be Goodbye Blue Sky.

[volcano]

Quote:
like Black Hawk Down.. Very prejudiced of course

Sigh

You're just itchin for some controversey aren't ya?
Truth, not controversey...

[Blaine]

Truth, not controversey...
Who's truth?

[J.R. Hudson]

Please

Don't even start.

And quit speaking like Yoda.

=

In no particular order; these are my favorite films that deal with the subject of warfare; neither of which paint war in a positive light and most definately are Anti-War in my mind.

I keep trying to think of films that GLORIFY war and am stumped; just because a film is made up of camp and cheese like a Navy Seals or a Delta Force or a Rambo or even a John Wayne Sands of Iwo Jima film, does not mean the war is being glorified no matter how heroesque it may seem.

Sometimes in history there are heroic stories to be told of good vs evil; The Allies and the Nazi Empire for example (and as previously mentioned) come ot mind

Sometimes within the micrcosm of war there are tales of heroes and heroics.

IS this glorifying war itself ? Does anyone really think war is a good thing ?

Braveheart
Schindler's List
The Killing Fields
Das Boot
The Thin Red Line
The Last Of The Mohicans
Good Morning, Vietnam
Casulaties of War
Saving Private Ryan
The Pianist
We Were Soldiers
Born On The Fourth Of July
Forrest Gump
Saving Private Ryan
Platoon
Patton
Empire Of The Sun
Three Kings
Gallipoli
Glory
The Bounty
The Deer Hunter
Full Metal Jacket
Apocalypse Now

Or is this one of those things where we have to list obscure European films or classics long forgotten from the avante garde cinema ?

[volcano]

Who's truth?
None owns it

[J.R. Hudson]

Quit while you're ahead.

[volcano]

Or is this one of those things where we have to list obscure European films or classics long forgotten from the avante garde cinema ?
I am impressed by your speed of writing...
I listed American movies too... And again, i am trying to put a list together, and in the process we are exchanging ideas... Why anger?

[Jeremy Ordan]

Great list John, but I think that Rambo, well technically First Blood, is a great example of the horrors of war and the lingering effect it leaves on people.

Now, most importantly, Volcano, remember, history is written by the victors, and history is very often far from the truth...

We are not talking about truth here, we're talking about films and no film, whether we're talking documentary or narrative is pure truth to all people.

There is a fine line that is being walked here...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic:

Born on the Fourth of July... this is an amazing example because this film is the only I can think of that I could classify as an excellent film and actually portrays war in all regards. The Ron character portrayed by Tom Cruise is motivated by stories of his father in WW2 and the pitch from the marines and runs off full steam to Vietman. He does his tour, see his attrocities, and then returns to his small town as a hero haunted by his ghosts of experience. This then manifests until he ultimately if a pro soilder right advocate who happens to be anti war. Perhaps the most complete dynamic character based on a true story within the war genre (but if you read Kovic's book, it is still far from 100% true to the material), and I'm shocked it wasn't discussed further to this point.

Great example and a film that should deserve it's own thread to be discussed for the complexities and beauty conveyed throughout.

-Jeremy