24P like telecine ?

[ulisses]

Hello,

I got some commercials made in 35mm (24P), transfered to Beta Digital, and the result is like DVX 24P. I think this is standard in the industry (3:2 pulldown) ?

I don't understand the reason to use 24P Advanced ?

Thanks,
Ulisses

[greeches]

Less interlaced frames!! :D

[David Jimerson]

You can use either 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown. In the end, it doesn't make all that much difference.

"Advanced" just makes it easier to extract the 24p footage from a 60i file, because there are fewer blended ("jutter") frames.

Where it DOES make a difference is playback on an NTSC TV. The "advanced" pulldown will seem to stutter a tiny bit more than normal pulldown will.

[GuRamalho]

I'm sorry, this might sound ridiculous, but I am more artistic than technical so I get very confused with this hole 24P scene. I mean, I love the way it looks, I know how to set the camera properly, but I don't understand the 24P issue. Let me explain: I work most with big 35mm cameras, so I'm still learning digital. My question is: 24P is a camera effect or it realy runs 24FPS as in a 16 or 35mm? I know it's stupid, but as saying goes: never learn without mistakes…

[David Jimerson]

It really runs at 24fps, as much as you can say that about a digital camera. The CCDs are "read" 24 times per second, and when they are, the entire CCD area is read simultaneously. So in that respect, it works just like film does, where 24 individual frames of film are exposed per second.

[ulisses]

Ok,

I only do the 3:2 pullup if I need to process / apply effects / 3D, I have no problem to 3:2 up 24P from DVX (I use Digital Fusion).
If 24P Adv generates more stutter I don't see a reason to use it (in my case)

I thought that 24P Advanced should improve the overall image quality, more detail, etc...

How about transfer to film, 24P or 24P Advanced ?

Thanks for the answer,
Ulisses

[David Jimerson]

Use 24p Advanced to shoot if you're going to be editing on a 24p timeline. Once it's back in native 24p, there will be no stutter.

You can use Normal, too, on a 24p timeline, but if you're going to be editing on 60i timeline, definitely use Normal.

For effects, 3D, etc., it doesn't matter which pulldown you use if you're editing in 24p.

There is no resolution boost in 24p; it's merely a different way of breaking up the frames to telecine. Some think you can gain a slight (but VERY slight) advantage in picture quality because it's easier to extract 24p, but that's highly theoretical.

You can use either for transfer to film, but because 24pA is easier to remove pulldown from, it’s preferred.

(Also, F6 on the DVX at default settings uses “THIN” detail, and you definitely want that if you’re going to film.)

[Barry_Green]

David's absolutely correct on everything he's said.

The only thing I'd add is, there is another potential quality advantage to 24PA, which is that it can use frame-based compression rather than field-based. 24PN (2:3) is likely to use field-based compression for 3/5 of its frames, whereas 24PA (2:3:3:2) can take advantage of DV's frame-based compression alternative (DV supports both methods). This MAY result in a slightly higher-quality picture, as frame-based compression could theoretically be more efficient.

In practice I've never found a circumstance where it makes any discernible difference.

[Soulfabric]

David's absolutely correct on everything he's said.

The only thing I'd add is, there is another potential quality advantage to 24PA, which is that it can use frame-based compression rather than field-based. *

In practice I've never found a circumstance where it makes any discernible difference.

Hi Barry and Co. First - thanks for all your helpful posts. I've been reading a ton in the past two weeks as I just purchased my DVX-100A - it arrived yesterday.

I understand that the camera's lens is seeing 24p, and the deck is recording at 29.97. But I also have a question about the usefulness of the standard mode.

I'm going to be shooting my next few documentaries on this camera (I'm a grad student at a film school) and want to distribute my films on DVD mostly, but have been advised that I might want to do a Digi-Beta master for film festivals. If I am capturing the material to FCP and editing on 24p timelines, is it easy enough to essentially do a "pull-up" back to 29.97 for output? If this is the case, it makes more sense to me to shoot just about everything that I want to have the 24 look in advanced mode so that I can edit on 24 timelines, create progressive DVD's, and then output to 29.97 tape if I wanted to.

I'm going to start doing some experimenting, but thought you might have an opinion. Am I missing something?

Cheers

[Barry_Green]

You're missing nothing -- that's exactly how you'd want to do it.

I don't use FCP so I can't comment on its workflow, but doing a 24p 3:2 "pull-up" (as you call it) is certainly very easy, Vegas does it in realtime during timeline playback. So if you're making a DigiBeta master, yes that's exactly what you'd want to do -- edit in the 24P timeline, and use that to master to your progressive DVD, .and then render out a 29.97 3:2 file for output back to tape (DigiBeta or DV)