Why I'm annoyed with Edius

[contentlab]

I'm kind of annoyed with the Edius workflow. But I realize that may simply be because I haven't spend enough time getting to love it. Hopefully posting here will help me love or further loathe some things.

I am mostly annoyed by the lack of control over project settings. I hate the confining range of presets that you can't rename, and lack of some important configuration possibilities. I really need to render full res 1280x720 AND 1920x1080 HD content for all my projects because using Edius is only an intermediate step in my post process.

I run a dual Xeon WinXP edit system with a Decklink I/O card that provides me with essential SDI and HD-SDI connections that I use to connect to monitors with SDI inputs, Digibeta and HD-D5 decks as well as component out in SD and HD. This card works perfectly with Premiere Pro 1.5, I haven't upgraded to 2 or the bundle upgrade for the Video Collection I use.

In order to get footage off my HVX and turned into a HD-SDI streeam I use Edius3 to import the HVX content, place it on the timeline and render out uncompressed to my 2TB SATA raid. Next I take that uncompressed file and place it on the PremPro timeline and if everyone has matching frame sizes and rates I can play that out in realtime over the SDI spigots of my Decklink card without any temp renders or further tweaks.

The problem is getting full 1920x1080 and 1280x720 renders out of Edius. yes I know that Edius 4 has a setting for 1920x1080 at 59.94/60i but what about 1280x720 at 59.94/60p? In the trial version of Edius 4 I installed yesterday I only see full 1080/59.94i....what about full 1080 at 24p, 30p, or full 720/59.94i or full 720/24p/30p with 4 channels of audio.

That is another thing that bugs me about these Edius presets. Lets say that the HDV 720/24p preset will solve my needs delivering a full 1280x720 file at 23.98p with no extra frames. Why in the f* do I only get 2 damn audio channels with that? Can't I at least get 4 audio channels for all my HDV presets so I don't have to do any further tweaks with audio propoerties of my file?

I'll admit that I may be mistakenly gripping because I haven't learned the ins and outs of this software yet but it most certainly is confusing and annoying that I can't set up a project with my own frame size, rate, defined pixel aspect and number of audio channels. Premiere and Vegas let me do that, why does Edius force me to work with restrictive presets? It's not like I want to set a project for 1834x564@34p with 3 channels of audio, I just want an editor that can support the formats available in common SMPTE configurations or at least all the formats of a camera that the NLE supports.

All of this really makes me want to just tell my boss lets sell the PC related stuff and just buy a FCP system. But until hell actually freezes over I need to figure out this full rez 1080 and 720 situation using Edius.

And yes I could just use the HDV presets in Edius 3 to export to Premiere but the HVX and HDV pixel aspect ratios usually aren't understood by Premiere and when you have it interpolate the image you get jagged line crap like what I asked about a while back:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=60420

Please, any help, tips, suggestions or shoulders to cry on will be greatly appreciated! It doesn't seem like paying fo the upgrade to Edius 4 will solve all my full frame export issues. Or maybe it will but I would also need to upgrade Premiere. However I don't want to spend another dime until I can be sure I have a workflow that works.

[bhiga]

While EDIUS doesn't require hardware, it is geared toward hardware... Hence, the project settings are restricted to stuff that hardware (some kind of hardware, whether DV, HDV, P2, or whatever) understands.

The audio limitations also come from the hardware focus, to a certain extent. DV and HDV output via OHCI is only two-channel (I know DV supports 4-channel but...).

If you had the (expensive) EDIUS HD hardware, then you'd get HD-SDI output with 8-channel embedded and/or unembedded audio. But that's a big chunk of change.

As far as your need for both 1920x1080, there's a nice thing you can do in EDIUS that some NLEs don't let you do - you can change the project settings on-the-fly. Of course, if you have titles, they'll need to be reopened and reaccepted (rerendered if they're animated), and positional elements will need to be adjusted, so it's not entirely straightforward, but it's better than having to recreate the entire project from scratch.

Hope that helps a bit.

Brandon

[contentlab]

i do kind of get the canopus strategy linking EDIUS to the hardware but it's most aggravating that the software doesn't allow the export in basic SMPTE formats, like full rez 1280x720@60p and 1920x1080@60i.

what i'm looking for is verification that Edius 4 will provide me with at least those two formats so I can work with my HVX content in Premiere and most other editing apps. The wonky 1.5 pixel aspect ratio is what is really screwing the pooch for me.

[contentlab]

and my sort of related gripe to the limited preset issue is how do i get Edius to export uncompressed video with 4 channels of audio? If I shoot something on my HVX and I use all 4 channels I don't want to have to do 2 renders selecting tracks 1&2 for one pass and tracks 3&4 for the other and then laying out and having to synch up two audio streams in my edit. yes I can lock/group/union those two tracks together in most NLEs but it would be nice if i could figure out how to get Edius to do that.

[bhiga]

Honestly, the PAR problem you're going to end up having deal with at some point in the process, as DVCPRO HD itself captures 1080i as 1280x1080, which ends up creating the 1.5 PAR.

Very few things maintain full 1920x1080 throughout the process.

I'm assuming you're using EDIUS version 3?

EDIUS version 4 addresses some of the video part at least, there's a "full HD 1080/59.94i" project mode which is full 1920x1080. It's far heftier on the system, though.

As for the audio, that one's still a bit of a gremlin... I don't know how EDIUS's output process is set up. I know you can map channels to the hardware (hence if you have EDIUS HD, you have 8-channel output), but I'm not sure what the limitations on the files are. Actually, HQ files support 8-channel audio, but I don't know how to get them made from the timeline.

Brandon

[contentlab]

what about 720? is there a 1280x720@59.94P project mode?

or better yet a chart or manual or PDF somewhere that I can see all the project mode settings for Edius Broadcast 4

[hvx_germanboy]

I think you shouldn get confused by the trial you can find of edius4.

The "broadcast" extensions that you could find in the edius 3 trial are not there yet, so i think you will definitly find your settings.

What about checking the canopus.com page, there should be information about the settings.
Also i saw some screenshots of the edius broadcast4 version(i think from "JBB") somewhere here in the canopus section, give it a try!

[bhiga]

I should elaborate a bit more...

For EDIUS Project Settings, it's a two-tier thing.

First you choose your Output device, which is your output hardware. The Generic OHCI options appear in all cases (even software-only). If you have EDIUS hardware, then additional options appear for the EDIUS hardware.

Which Output device you choose determines which Output formats are available, the Output format really being the project frame rate, resolution and frame size/pixel aspect ratio.

The Output format, while it often lists particular compression/tape formats, does not define an "editing format" per-se. This means that even though you may choose "HDV 720/29.97p" as your Output format, that does not meant that everything you work with gets compressed to HDV, nor does it mean that you're restricted to working only with HDV format clips. It simply serves as an example - "Hey, this is one of the HDV resolution/framerates"

So, here's what you have in EDIUS version 4 without EDIUS hardware. Broadcast-only features appear in italics and require that you have EDIUS Broadcast version 4 (versus EDIUS Pro version 4).

The format is
Output device
Output format
Output format
Output device
Output format
Generic OHCI HD 60Hz
Full HD 1080/59.94i
HDCAM/HDV 1080/59.94i
HDV 1080/29.97p
HDV 720/29.97p
DVCPRO HD 1080/59.94i
DVCPRO HD 1080/29.97p over 59.94i
DVCPRO HD 720/59.94p
DVCPRO HD 720/29.97p over 59.94i
Generic OHCI HD 50Hz
Full HD 1080/50i
HDCAM/HDV 1080/50i
HDV 1080/25p
HDV 720/25p
DVCPRO HD 1080/50i
DVCPRO HD 1080/25p over 50i
DVCPRO HD 720/50p
DVCPRO HD 720/25p over 50p
DVCPRO HD 720/50p over 60p
DVCPRO HD 720/25p over 60p
Generic OHCI HD 24Hz
HDV 1080/23.98p
HDV 720/23.98p
DVCPRO HD 1080/23.98p over 59.94i
DVCPRO HD 1080/23.98pA over 59.94i
DVCPRO HD 720/23.98p over 59.94p
DVCPRO HD 720/24p over 60p
Generic OHCI SD NTSC
DVCPRO50 59.94i 4:3
DVCPRO50 59.94i 16:9
DV 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 59.94i 4:3, 44.1kHz
DV 59.94i 4:3, 32kHz 2ch
DV 59.94i 4:3, 32kHz 4ch
DV 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz
DV 59.94i 16:9, 44.1kHz
DV 59.94i 16:9, 32kHz 2ch
DV 59.94i 16:9, 32kHz 4ch
DV 29.97p over 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 29.97p over 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz
HDV 480/59.94p 16:9
Generic OHCI SD PAL
DVCPRO50 50i 4:3
DVCPRO50 50i 16:9
DV 50i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 50i 4:3, 44.1kHz
DV 50i 4:3, 32kHz 2ch
DV 50i 4:3, 32kHz 4ch
DV 50i 16:9, 48 kHz
DV 50i 16:9 44.1kHz
DV 50i 16:9, 32kHz 2ch
DV 50i 16:9, 32kHz 4ch
DV 25p over 50i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 25p over 50i 16:9, 48kHz
HDV 576/50p 4:3
HDV 576/50p 16:9
HDV 576/25p 16:9
Generic OHCI SD 24Hz
DV 23.98p over 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 23.98p over 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz
DV 23.98pA over 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 23.98pA over 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz Brandon

[hvx_germanboy]

I should elaborate a bit more...

For EDIUS Project Settings, it's a two-tier thing.

First you choose your Output device, which is your output hardware. The Generic OHCI options appear in all cases (even software-only). If you have EDIUS hardware, then additional options appear for the EDIUS hardware.

Which Output device you choose determines which Output formats are available, the Output format really being the project frame rate, resolution and frame size/pixel aspect ratio.

The Output format, while it often lists particular compression/tape formats, does not define an "editing format" per-se. This means that even though you may choose "HDV 720/29.97p" as your Output format, that does not meant that everything you work with gets compressed to HDV, nor does it mean that you're restricted to working only with HDV format clips. It simply serves as an example - "Hey, this is one of the HDV resolution/framerates"

So, here's what you have in EDIUS version 4 without EDIUS hardware. Broadcast-only features appear in italics and require that you have EDIUS Broadcast version 4 (versus EDIUS Pro version 4).

The format is
Output device
Output format
Output format
Output device
Output format
Generic OHCI HD 60Hz
Full HD 1080/59.94i
HDCAM/HDV 1080/59.94i
HDV 1080/29.97p
HDV 720/29.97p
DVCPRO HD 1080/59.94i
DVCPRO HD 1080/29.97p over 59.94i
DVCPRO HD 720/59.94p
DVCPRO HD 720/29.97p over 59.94i
Generic OHCI HD 50Hz
Full HD 1080/50i
HDCAM/HDV 1080/50i
HDV 1080/25p
HDV 720/25p
DVCPRO HD 1080/50i
DVCPRO HD 1080/25p over 50i
DVCPRO HD 720/50p
DVCPRO HD 720/25p over 50p
DVCPRO HD 720/50p over 60p
DVCPRO HD 720/25p over 60p
Generic OHCI HD 24Hz
HDV 1080/23.98p
HDV 720/23.98p
DVCPRO HD 1080/23.98p over 59.94i
DVCPRO HD 1080/23.98pA over 59.94i
DVCPRO HD 720/23.98p over 59.94p
DVCPRO HD 720/24p over 60p
Generic OHCI SD NTSC
DVCPRO50 59.94i 4:3
DVCPRO50 59.94i 16:9
DV 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 59.94i 4:3, 44.1kHz
DV 59.94i 4:3, 32kHz 2ch
DV 59.94i 4:3, 32kHz 4ch
DV 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz
DV 59.94i 16:9, 44.1kHz
DV 59.94i 16:9, 32kHz 2ch
DV 59.94i 16:9, 32kHz 4ch
DV 29.97p over 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 29.97p over 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz
HDV 480/59.94p 16:9
Generic OHCI SD PAL
DVCPRO50 50i 4:3
DVCPRO50 50i 16:9
DV 50i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 50i 4:3, 44.1kHz
DV 50i 4:3, 32kHz 2ch
DV 50i 4:3, 32kHz 4ch
DV 50i 16:9, 48 kHz
DV 50i 16:9 44.1kHz
DV 50i 16:9, 32kHz 2ch
DV 50i 16:9, 32kHz 4ch
DV 25p over 50i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 25p over 50i 16:9, 48kHz
HDV 576/50p 4:3
HDV 576/50p 16:9
HDV 576/25p 16:9
Generic OHCI SD 24Hz
DV 23.98p over 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 23.98p over 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz
DV 23.98pA over 59.94i 4:3, 48kHz
DV 23.98pA over 59.94i 16:9, 48kHz Brandon

If this isnt nice done, theni dont know....!

Still any complaints ou there??

[contentlab]

brandon,

thanks for the awesome table. i'm still disappointed by the lack of full frame 720/59.94p. what do i need to bride the engineers in japan with to get that?

i am curious if the OHCI output of Edius can transfer HD content to the Panny AJ-HD1400 deck...

[ROne]

One thing that I like about EDius is the ability to switch presets intra-project. So if you want to edit in hidef, then edit - but if you want to edit for DV ouput just switch the preset and you get downscaled hidef to DV on the same project.

Brilliant. (I'm an edius newbie)

[hvx_germanboy]

Hey ROne,

i love that too, also if i am still working with the trial, but probably getting edius4 broadcast in autumn, which is a must as a pal user!

Do you got that allready or are you trying the trial?
I am really curious to know how people do their hvx-postproduction, specially in pal country!

cheers!

[THoff]

If you are exporting through Procoder Express, you don't even need to change the project settings, since PCE lets you specify output settings that can be entirely different from what the project uses.

[bhiga]

thanks for the awesome table. i'm still disappointed by the lack of full frame 720/59.94p. what do i need to bride the engineers in japan with to get that?

i am curious if the OHCI output of Edius can transfer HD content to the Panny AJ-HD1400 deck...
Yeah, Kenneally just pointed out to me that my recommendation in the Canopus forum won't work since you want 59.94p... Not sure what the deal is. One thing is certain though - 720/59.94p is more data than 1080/59.94i... so there might be additional testing and/or hardware limitations in the way.

OHCI output of EDIUS should work for AJ-HD1400 as it's DVCPRO HD. You'll need EDIUS Broadcast though.

Brandon

[bhiga]

One thing that I like about EDius is the ability to switch presets intra-project. So if you want to edit in hidef, then edit - but if you want to edit for DV ouput just switch the preset and you get downscaled hidef to DV on the same project.
Careful about your titles and size/position effects though, they'll at the very least need to be opened and reconfirmed as they're pixel-bound and therefore not frame-scaled.

Brandon

[hvx_germanboy]

Careful about your titles and size/position effects though, they'll at the very least need to be opened and reconfirmed as they're pixel-bound and therefore not frame-scaled.

Brandon

Thats a good Tip Brandon, thanks for this one..!:)

[ROne]

acer
If you are exporting through Procoder Express, you don't even need to change the project settings, since PCE lets you specify output settings that can be entirely different from what the project uses.

Okay, I'm talking about before the export during the edit, so you're doing a 720p edit and DV edit at the same time ... realtime.

Didn't think about the titles though, shouldn't be too much hardship.

HVX_german boy, I got the full monty - broadcast. I decided that if I want to embrace P2 properly then I'd got to get it.

I've conifgured it like premiere pro though now for single track editing.

[contentlab]

ooh i'm glad this thread didn't just die...


If you are exporting through Procoder Express, you don't even need to change the project settings, since PCE lets you specify output settings that can be entirely different from what the project uses.


hmmm, you know i was considering that but haven't gotten aroudn to using that app yet. i wouldn't mind doing two conversion steps although uncompressed it would use up a lotof storage space. i could toss the intermediate version though.

thanks for the tip

[contentlab]

and bhiga thanks for the tip on the HD1400.

i hope my earlier posts didn't sound like i was bashing edius. i fully acknowledge i'm not that familiar with it and realize it is a different beast than premiere with it's own strenghts and weaknesses. i plan on playing around more with the changing project settings.

[Red Malone]

content lab, I'm hoping you can help out. I'm about to purchase an edit system and I'm torn between Avid DV Express Pro HD and the Canopus Edius 4 Broadcast.

I'm currently shooting with a DVX100B. I want to shoot in all the settings available. I've got 60i work to do as well as 24P and 24PAdvance work to do.

My day-to-day activities give me expsure to Avid so I'm familiar with the architecture. I've got people reccomending Edius 4 to me. I played with it a bit but it's new to me.

What are your thoughts on the Edius 4 as a new user? Can it handle 24PA 2:3:3:2 pulldown? Anything you can tell me would be appreiciated. Thanks.

[bhiga]

i hope my earlier posts didn't sound like i was bashing edius. Not at all, everything has its own strengths and weaknesses. Usually amounts to inherent differences in initial design intent.

You have good, practical questions.

Currently EDIUS is very "hardware-centric" in its project/processing formats. I hope this will change as we move more toward digital and file-based I/O.

Brandon