Confused about Progressive on PAL cameras

[andrew00]

Hi,

I'm off on a jaunt tomorrow and typically last minute have got myself in a possibly unnecessary tiz over Progessive mode on my PAL camera.

From what I understand of the NTSC Progressive modes - 24P should be shot when you are going to be editing on a 30 frames a second timeline [e.g. when you are outputing to TV etc] and 24PA should be shot when you are editing on a 24 frames a second timeline [e.g. when you are outputting to film].

However - I'm confused about PAL and Progressive. PAL footage is shown at 25 frames a second. From what I gather, both 25P/25PA modes [or cine mode whatever it's called] shoot at 25 frames a second. Therefore, unlike the above NTSC mode - I'll always be editing on a 25 frames a second timeline regardless. Therefore, my mind naturally thinks there should be no pulldown or no trouble with editing, that, in fact, editing progressive on PAL should be as easy as pie.

Is this correct? If so, then what is the tangible difference between the two modes for PAL? I'm shooting a travel promo that will end up being put on a DVD intended to be played on PC's and watched on the TV, as well as some web streaming.

I'm having a tough time knowing which of the two modes to film in. It seems like PAL should be really really simple to understand, so I'm asking this question to clear it up either way!

Cheers for you comments.

P.S. I use Vegas to edit.

[vidled]

Yes, PAL is "as easy as pie"!

You have two choices 50i or 25P. I suggest 25P (set in the menu: PROGRESSIVE: YES).
Then just use a PAL DV project set to FIELD ORDER: none (Progressive) in VEGAS.

[andrew00]

Awesome.

Therefore does the selection between F5 or F6 just boil down to artistic choice? If both are essentially the same therefore?

In the manual it says for F5 - Scene 25P "The V Details Freq item on the Scene File setting menu screen is set to THICK) and for F6 - Scene Cine "The V Detail Freq...is set to THIN".

I've no idea what that means, but essentially it sounds an artistic choice rather than anything else?

Last question - what does the Field Order do and why is it necessary to set is to none?

Cheers!

[vidled]

Okay, first I should maybe suggest the EXCELLENT book by this forum's very own BARRY GREEN:
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/
It is WELL worth the small expense.

Whilst shooting in the 25P mode, you will most likely want the V Detail Freq to be THIN. It has to do with how the final project gets displayed on an interlaced TV.
F6 is really quite a good setting as it is right out of the cam. It is my preferred scene file. The V Detail Freq is NOT an artistic choice though, it is PURELY technical.

Regarding the FIELD ORDER question: Progressive Scan has NO field order, as it is, well, PROGRESSIVE and not interlaced. I quickly did a google search, and this page seems to explain it somewhat:
http://searchwarp.com/swa21525.htm

But really, consider buying Barry's book, you will be amazed at what you can learn about your cam!

[andrew00]

Yeah I definately am going to buy Barry's book when I'm back from my trip, the problem is I'm going tomorrow heh, hence my somewhat desperate posting.

Thanks a lot for your answer, I now know I'm gonna set my camera to F6 and can do so without worrying I'm gonna muck things up in the edit.

[Ogrus]

Just like you i had a hard time getting al this progressive stuff due to that this is basically a NTSC dvx forum with splashes of PAL (which have been extremely useful to understand my DVX) One thing i have noticed after 10 solid months of shooting with a 100Bpal is that when using f5. dont think by just shooting its going to be 100% filmlike, (common mistake from new DVX buyers!) it wont!
What i learned is that the camera does its job but you must make its job easy... How
This is my list to make a movie look "movielikepro" with the DVX
1)Light is everything -if lighting is wrong, movie sucks
2)Stability is everything -is camera shakes, movie sucks
3)DVX100B f5 -with light and stability correct... hit record!

Changing setting like knee and croma etc is sooo subtle (unless you crank them) that only the pro eye will notice the difference

Ogrus



PS: You really dont need the book because you can find every answer here in the forum. Now, investing in it is a good idea cause its all there and the DVD rules!
On the other hand, its very ntsc focused, but when he give a explanation of a certian type of function or setting for ntsc, he always give the pal settings also (not that he goes in depth with PAL but tells enough)

[vidled]

DVX100B f5 -with light and stability correct... hit record! <snip>

You really dont need the book because you can find every answer here in the forum.


Good info there Ogrus, although the above referenced part, as an example, is where the BOOK is invaluable:
If the DVX100BE is set up the same as the DVX100AE, the F5 will come factory set to V Detail Freq set to THICK. That is most often NOT desired, as you will basically lose resolution. It has advantages in reducing "line twitching" when displayed on interlaced sets, but honestly, I can't imagine this is a desired way to capture footage in MOST cases.
V Detail Freq really should be at THIN, or at the very least at NORM[al].

Barry's book, I'm sure, explains this much better than I.

[andybiz_2005]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you need to transfer your shots from the DVX to film (shown on cinema widescreen), then shooting 25p with V detail Freq set to THIN will be preferable since on a cinema widescreen, your footage will be magnified by a number of times. With a setting of THIN, I believe the footage will look clearer & sharper than when shooting in the THICK mode.

If your budget can afford it, then invest in an anamorphic adapter, which basically is a 16:9 convertor that fastens to the front of your DVX. By using the anamorphic adapter, you will be utilizing ALL the pixels in your camera's CCDs, even though it's in 16:9 aspect ratio. If you shoot in Letterboxed mode, then some vertical resolution (on top & below of the 4:3 frame) will be chopped off. Therefore you lose some vertical resolution shooting Letterboxed mode.

I've read in threads here that some have used the anamorphic adapter to uprezz their SD (standard def.) footage to HD (high def.) with some satisfactory results, but ofcourse it still can't beat real HD footage.

Shooting 25p with V detail Freq set to THICK, or MID is more suited for a normal TV (interlaced or progressive) viewing as the TV is more forgiving at showing fine detail. Some have commented of flickering when watching their DVD from an interlaced TV even though footage was captured in progressive. Probably the reason could be the V detail Freq was set to THIN & the TV couldn't handle that. While others have reported no flickering of their DVD when watched on a TV.

I'm still not sure the reason for this. Perhaps some people more knowledable can comment on this. Thanks.

Yes, those in PAL land thankfully don't have to deal with problemsome pull-down. We shoot in 25 p & edit it in a 25p timeline in our NLE of choice.

But while shooting progressive, you have to be vigilant in focussing your footage manually as the focus assist in progressive mode takes an agornisingly long time to hunt for sharp focus. Pan & tilt slowly to minimise on strobing footage. General rule : 8 seconds from left to right or from up to down & vice versa.

Andrew

[vidled]

Andrew:
grosso modo correct on all points!

[andybiz_2005]

Thanks vidled,

Actually, I learnt about all these from this wonderful forum where others, who are more expert than me have "enlightened" me. When I 1st had my DVX, I knew absolutely nothing. Many thanks to all those who helped me increase my knowledge. Like others who have helped me, I'm now contributing back to the forum with the little that I know.

[Ogrus]

Andybiz!
Thanks for your brutally simple to understand post!
I´ve finally understood what the f**K a anamorphic lens is for!!!
Sometimes, you need a clear easy view to get it.
Some of these pros here....
sometimes just get wayyyyyy too technical for us less veterans! :furious3:

[andrew00]

Thanks for the replies - This forum is great for helping people.

I often find I know some of the more complicated things but don't know the really simple stuff. I suppose I've spent whatever filming I have done before filming with 16mm generally, so naturally I can go into the complicated and long-winded way of settings things up.

However, when I've come to digital it is a lot easier to do a lot of really great things, often it's so easy that you are looking for a complicated explanation. That's why I was getting in a spell about the two progressive modes on the PAL camera. My head screamed 'there's nothing wrong, it's really really easy with PAL' but my mind nonetheless thought there's GOT to be something more to it.

[andybiz_2005]

Oh you're all very welcome :)