Is Sd Dead? Am I Wasting My Time Filming My Project On Dvx ?

[PIMP]

Should I stop filming my project and save for a HVX? Or can we still make the DVX 100 work in a world of HI DEF. I want to know from all you people if you find the dvx footage acceptable in this hi def field?

thanks

PIMP

[William_Robinette]

Well, as of not having any real delivery method of HD content, except for the web, I think you are OK.

[PIMP]

Well, as of not having any real delivery method of HD content, except for the web, I think you are OK.

what about the big screen hi def televisions/?

[HorseFilms]

Just shoot your movie. The DVX will live on for a long freaking time.

[Barry_Green]

If you're aiming for DVD release, which is the only practical distribution method currently available, then a DVX will do just fine.

If you somehow were going to get this broadcast on a high-def channel, then obviously you'd be better off to shoot it in HD in the first place. But the odds against that happening are very, very high.

If you had a specific output deal with a broadcaster already, they would have specified HD acquisition in the first place if they needed it.

So -- frankly, standard-def DVD is the only distribution means that's going to come into play. And a DVX makes gorgeous standard-def DVDs.

If you're going to try to sell it to worldwide distributors, having shot on high-def would definitely give you an advantage. But consider that there were five DVX-shot movies released theatrically last year, and one was nominated for an Oscar. So if you make a great film, having shot on a DVX won't be a problem. And if you make a lousy film, having shot on high def won't salvage it.

In other words, there's five paragraphs to say what Horse said in one sentence... :thumbsup:

[PIMP]

If you're aiming for DVD release, which is the only practical distribution method currently available, then a DVX will do just fine.

If you somehow were going to get this broadcast on a high-def channel, then obviously you'd be better off to shoot it in HD in the first place. But the odds against that happening are very, very high.

If you had a specific output deal with a broadcaster already, they would have specified HD acquisition in the first place if they needed it.

So -- frankly, standard-def DVD is the only distribution means that's going to come into play. And a DVX makes gorgeous standard-def DVDs.

If you're going to try to sell it to worldwide distributors, having shot on high-def would definitely give you an advantage. But consider that there were five DVX-shot movies released theatrically last year, and one was nominated for an Oscar. So if you make a great film, having shot on a DVX won't be a problem. And if you make a lousy film, having shot on high def won't salvage it.

In other words, there's five paragraphs to say what Horse said in one sentence... :thumbsup:


BARRY

In your opinion how does SD hold up in HD televisions? Do you think its acceptable? I know its not the HVX200. Just concerened because i work at Cosco wholesales and overnight our SD tvs have reduced to just 2 brands in stock.

Thanks Barry

Love the book

[Barry_Green]

Depends on the TV and how it's set up, and how the internal scaling looks. Sometimes it looks great, usually it looks horrible. But it's not necessarily limited by the tv itself, just by the default setup. Which is little consolation, because few users are going to go through the effort to properly calibrate their set...

[Cynic821]

Im kinda buzzed so ill keep shot and sweet. I work for a publisher, and we publish many dvd's for retail. I had many meetings with buyers for stores and they all had the same thing to say: We want all HD-DVD/Blu-Ray content. So if you can produce one of those formats, and find a publisher, half of the sales team's work is already done for them.

My partner and i have already sold our HD-DVD and are putting the fonoshing touches on the post work on it this weekend to deliver to the replicator.

After talking with the big box retailers, they are very interested in HD content and especially with not too many titles on the shelf, it will be seen for sure by owners of the players.

Ive probably said too much, but its just my inside take on the VSDA week in Vegas.

[PaPa]

which theatrical releases were shot on dvx? sick.

[Lake Films]

Stick with the DVX, I'm currently in production and I'm extremely happy with the look. Long live the DVX!!!

[HorseFilms]

In other words, there's five paragraphs to say what Horse said in one sentence... :thumbsup:

But you're always so much more eloquent about things.:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[Barry_Green]

which theatrical releases were shot on dvx? sick.
November, Murderball, 9 Songs, Mad Hot Ballroom, The Aristocrats, Lonesome Jim, and I'm sure there were others.

[DC]

Should I stop filming my project and save for a HVX? Or can we still make the DVX 100 work in a world of HI DEF. I want to know from all you people if you find the dvx footage acceptable in this hi def field?

thanks

PIMP

I had a feeling that was you, O.

:)

[PIMP]

I had a feeling that was you, O.

:)

yep DC. I am very predicatable. The pics you sent me looked great. when are you going to finish so i can check out your project?

o.r

[t-h-e-w-h-o]

as far as SD looking good on an HD set, my dvx footage looks GREAT when played on an HDTV. Ive tested it on 6 differnt hd sets and its looked fine on every single one.

[andy_starbuck]

As far as SD being dead.... I don't think so. The technology isn't just changing the value proposition and cost structure of film and video production, but also distribution. Seems to me that eventually SD will dominate in online video and a lot of other smaller format applications where the extra resolution of HD just amounts to more overhead. Well, that and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. :-,

Oh -- also -- the HVX200 comes with a miniDV unit in it. It could have had an HDV unit and provided translation from DVCPROHD to HDV. But apparently Panasonic expects SD DV to continue in good health for some time.

[David Jimerson]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the general public couldn't care less about HD. SD may never die.

[vidled]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the general public couldn't care less about HD. SD may never die.


LOL, I think you're on to something there. Really, most don't worry about pixel count and all that. I think too that SD will be here for a LONG time yet...

[HorseFilms]

I think I could show DVX footage to the average person, tell them it's HD and have them believe me without question. They know the term "HD" is the next big thing, but they don't have a clue what it really means.

[zoostory]

hmm. All of you that think the public doesn't care about HD are wrong. I have a 130" diagonal projection screen with a 720p projector as my main home TV watching system. HD look AMAZING ON IT, and you can clearly see the limitation of SD. After watching Deadwood at 130" in HD true 16x9, I'm never going back!

Plus, HD has a higher color sampling rate than DV. Even in the SD world, to be able to finish on something higher end, like digibeta, is better than miniDV. Also, a lot of festivals are now accepting HDCAM. Especially the big ones. And for a short film, festivals are probably the biggest target market.

There is a difference, clearly, and DV will not be around forever... nothing ever is.

[David Jimerson]

You, zoostory, are not "the public."

Didn't say a thing about DV. It's not the same as SD.

No, I don't think they care that much. I'm sure most people look at HDTVs and are impressed, but go home and are happy as clams watching their standard sets. People who just have to have it are very rare.

[j]

It's the same mentality that think an LCD has a better display than a CRT because it is a "flat screen"...

[PIMP]

hmm. All of you that think the public doesn't care about HD are wrong. I have a 130" diagonal projection screen with a 720p projector as my main home TV watching system. HD look AMAZING ON IT, and you can clearly see the limitation of SD. After watching Deadwood at 130" in HD true 16x9, I'm never going back!

Plus, HD has a higher color sampling rate than DV. Even in the SD world, to be able to finish on something higher end, like digibeta, is better than miniDV. Also, a lot of festivals are now accepting HDCAM. Especially the big ones. And for a short film, festivals are probably the biggest target market.

There is a difference, clearly, and DV will not be around forever... nothing ever is.

Not everyone is rich enough to own a digital projector home viewing system. I have come to the conclusion that SD while not better then HD is still very good. And the slighter dirtier picture gives a more film like appearance.

PIMP

[zoostory]

I can buy certain agruments. But saying that a slightly "dirtier picture" in SD gives a more film like appearance is just absurd. 35mm is probably the highest resolution of all... and so... so different from anything shot SD. Also, the dirt you are talking about on film (gate weave, black, white dirt, mistimes, etc) is very, very different from any form of "dirt" any SD format will create. So no, crappy resolution does NOT give a more film like appearance, I don't care what you say. If you watch film telecined to HDCAM versus film telecined to Digibeta on a large projector, or even an HDTV, you WILL see a difference, and the HDCAM will preserve more filmic qualities.


Also, it is not the same mentality as saying an LCD is better than a CRT because... another absurd analogy. HDCAM actually HAS higher resolution and a higher color sampling rate, not to mention a natively 23.98 progressive nature. Whereas with your analogy, we are looking at two different concepts to present the SAME THING, with HD, we are looking at a concept for improving clarity and size.

Otherwise, why would Mann shoot with the Viper and Singer the Genesis? Why would most films be DI'ed to D5 if it was the same thing?

And also, my system cost 2500 dollars. That's for the screen, the projector, the HDMI cables, ceiling mount, AND the projector (including an extra bulb). It's amazing and far larger than any Plasma out there. The keys are light loss (room has to be dark for best image) and poistioning. While LCD projectors are more versatile than DLP, you still need to do some math and make sure you have the distance from screen, etc.

But I am so glad I did it! The World Cup in HD! Boxing, movies!

Those of you nay-sayers simply haven't seen the difference for a long period of time. Maybe a screen here or there in a Best Buy, but wait till you have 130" 16x9 diagonal at you house. I've seen both. And what I am saying is, once you go HD, it's very, very difficult to go back. And while it's true, most American's are passive and content... the most spent on commodity in America is consumer electronics, particularily home entertainment. Obviously, the studios and electronics companies are pushing various forms of HD. Trailers are now HD. The computer industry is pushing it. So it's coming, and it makes perfect sense. You can always down convert to SD if you love it's dirtyness so much :)

[David Jimerson]

I was a very early adopter of HD, and at the time, even for years after, I was convinced you were right. You're still at the very early stages of your enthusiasm.

But people do exactly as you say -- they watch my set, they see sets at Best Buy, etc., and are impressed, but are perfectly happy with their SD sets.

Which is why I'm increasingly convinced that SD is "good enough" for the market.

[zoostory]

David, it's not a question of whether SD is good enough for the market. Of course it is, the vast majority are not as passionate as us guys! But... look at it from the other perspective, the sales side of things. Companies need to keep selling. Right now the demand isn't high enough for HD, but the tech industry is doing everything they can to increase demand. The SD world is maxed out, there's not much room for new devices to sell people. Thus, HD. It is a growing market, and sooner or later some device or format will come out in the HD realm that will hit the right price point and availability, then boom, it will go widespread. That's what they are hoping with with HDDVD and Blue-Ray, but unfortunately their own war and their absurd prices are keeping people away from it.

Of course, we never totally know what is going to catch on or not. But technology is ever evolving and there will always be something new. And my bet is that that something will be of a higher defenition that what we currently have... if it is actually called HD or not, that can't predict.

[Noel Evans]

HDCAM actually HAS higher resolution and a higher color sampling rate, not to mention a natively 23.98 progressive nature. the higher colour sampling depends entirely on the cam being used. The DVX is sd and shoots progressive.

Anyway for now SD lives and still has a solid place, of course in the future it will change. But to say it wont is akin to saying we will be driving around in combustion engine cars in 500 years.

I plan on jumping ship to HD in the very near future for my personal stuff. Everything at my house is HD capable, except of course the DVD player. We have a 42" plasma and 36" LCD both connected to HD Cable. I would say Japan at this stage would have the highest per capita uptake of HD, and still many people are without it, though many homes are now Digital TV capable.

On a side note the 36LCD TV we have is a month old and was clearly top one or two on the shelf at this size. Put it next to the plasma......... plasma wins hands down for clarity.

[Bruce Morgan]

I am very happy this discussion is kept alive
since it includes updates on market demands ,
tech data about the viability of the dvx100 a
as well as subjective issues ,

i am about to launch several web based game movies and some other work done on a combination of dvx100a and 35mm film .

I have one hopefull assumption ,

Based on the Sticky Thread started by the man from Pine Lake Films -
I assume the unprez procedure put the dvx100a somewhat back into the HD MARKET in terms of output results .

I could be wrong about this assumption as uprezed standard def footage has a very contrasty quality to it.

Any opinions, on uprezed standard def dvx100 foootage as a competitor to real high def footage , are well appreciated ,
Cheers
Bruce

[zoostory]

As far as I know nothing is actually screened in an SD format that is higher than 4:2:2 (DigiBeta). And, if specifically talking about the DVX in America, then it's 4:1:1 and in this day and age, to me, that's just not enough. On a big HD projection or plasma, it just looks chunky to me.

As for the other post, I don't know if I would put the DVX back to back with 35mm film, unless I had a real good reason to. Putting it near film will call out all the flaws of the format more. Students at the school I go to tried to use DVXes for "digital pick-ups" on their 16mm projects last semester, and it was really, painfully obvious, what was what.

I know there is InstandHD for uprezzing SD to HD, I haven't checked it out yet, but I can't imagine it is anywhere near the quality of originating on HD.

[egearbox]

Regardless of the actual image quality between SD and HD, here's one other note: I know someone who has a completed film shot on DV and has been trying to market it to distributors (this is his 3rd film). No distributor will accept DV anymore, they are only looking at HD/HDV now. If you show up with 4x3 DV, they aren't interested.

[Niebs]

November, Murderball, 9 Songs, Mad Hot Ballroom, The Aristocrats, Lonesome Jim, and I'm sure there were others.

Apparently some distributors are interested.

[Barry_Green]

Well, yeah, but egearbox has a point. If you tell people your project was shot on 4x3 SD DV, that's a great way to get the door slammed in your face. Of course, if you tell them you shot on HDV that'll get it slammed just as quickly.

Ideally you wouldn't tell 'em what you shot it on at all. Just have them watch the project, ideally in front of a paying audience. If a paying audience loves (and emphasize LOVES) your film, then the distributor will see the market potential regardless of what format it was shot on. In the end the distributor doesn't care about your artistic vision, doesn't care about the moral message, etc., the distributor is in the business of distributing successful pictures. If an audience will buy a ticket to your film, and if they'll buy the DVD when the DVD is released, then the distributor will pick it up. It's pretty much that simple.

And Lonesome Jim had Steve Buscemi in it, and The Aristocrats was from Penn & Teller and had dozens (if not hundreds) of name comedians in it, and November had Courtney Cox Arquette in it, so those weren't total no-name indie pix. And Mad Hot Ballroom and Murderball were documentaries, and very well-received -- Murderball went on to win the best cinematography award for a doc at Sundance, and then was nominated for an Oscar for best documentary.

The moral of that story is -- regardless of format, you've got to "bring it" or you won't get anywhere with any distributor. But if you do "bring it" then the format won't necessarily stop you. Although better formats do make it easier, or at least they help you get past one layer of resistance.

[Brandon Rice]

I am wholeheartedly agreeing with most of you here. I just shot my first feature on the DVX, and I'm aimed at a direct-to-DVD distribution. I won't tell anyone what its shot on if I don't have to. And I am banking on the story, and the film itself to sell itself. If nothing disqualifies it, then its not any less important. Some films were shot on less and made more (Blair Witch Project). I will look into shooting our next film (hopefully a sequel to the current one) on HD.

[Kelly Olsen]

If any distributor asks what your project was shot on before they look at it and uses that as a criteria to pass then that is not a distributor you want. Every day there is a new show or series shot on the DVX in SD.

There are more of them today, not fewer of them. I remember as a kid in the 1960's that everybody said in a few years we would have no need for food because it would all be in pill form, that all telephones would have a TV screen, most cars would fly and the list goes on.

Yes, things are slowly going to high def. But that is slowly. SD or SD uprezed is still a viable medium.

The truth is if people are looking at the pixels, then the real problem is what you shot content wise not what you shot it with.

Go and take a look at Murder Ball, Mad Hot Ballroom etc., compelling story telling shot on a DVX.

Even better, rent My Date With Drew. Theatrical release and big money maker, then DVD sales and I just saw it on broadcast network. Standard def, consumer grade camera, in camera crappy mike and no lights.

I saw it on a huge theater screen and in about two minutes I was hooked by the story and didn't notice grain or lighting or sound.

How many HD projects don't get distribution? I bet the exact same ratio as SD. Does anybody say "Oh, you shot in HD, OK, we don't need to see it, we'll just get the contract ready". No.

Shoot with the best you can afford no matter what it is and then work on content. If you have a DVX 100 anything then you are one step above most of the shooters out there right now.

[Noel Evans]

"Oh, you shot in HD, OK, we don't need to see it, we'll just get the contract ready".



LOL! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[imageonepictures]

Should I stop filming my project and save for a HVX? Or can we still make the DVX 100 work in a world of HI DEF. I want to know from all you people if you find the dvx footage acceptable in this hi def field?

thanks

PIMP
Hey,

IMHO I'd say no. A lot of great features were shot on this camera. I am shooting mine on this in either 24/30p. A great camera to use to get a "film look".

Go with it.

Chris

[imageonepictures]

Should I stop filming my project and save for a HVX? Or can we still make the DVX 100 work in a world of HI DEF. I want to know from all you people if you find the dvx footage acceptable in this hi def field?

thanks

PIMP
Hey,

Something else you should know The DV Shop www.dvshop.ca says the DVX is their top selling camera even in the world of HDV. It's like the Energizer Bunny it keeps going and going and going...

It's the best SD camera under $8000.00 period.

Chris

[imageonepictures]

I am wholeheartedly agreeing with most of you here. I just shot my first feature on the DVX, and I'm aimed at a direct-to-DVD distribution. I won't tell anyone what its shot on if I don't have to. And I am banking on the story, and the film itself to sell itself. If nothing disqualifies it, then its not any less important. Some films were shot on less and made more (Blair Witch Project). I will look into shooting our next film (hopefully a sequel to the current one) on HD.
Brandon,

Your DVX looks cool! Which version do you have?

[Noel Evans]

Of course, if you tell them you shot on HDV that'll get it slammed just as quickly.



Ive heard so many projects right now being shot on the XL h1. Im not saying your wrong, but just asking the question again... do you really think a distributor would pull the plug because of this fact? Wouldnt it mostly depend on how its finally output? Sorry Barry just an important question Id like answered at this point in time based on what I am doing.


"Oh, you shot in HD, OK, we don't need to see it, we'll just get the contract ready".



LOL! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

However I do feel if you can put the fewest limitations between you and the distributor surely it has to mean something in the end.

BTW Brandon your story does look interesting from the trailer.

[Brandon Rice]

Brandon,

Your DVX looks cool! Which version do you have?

The Original baby... DVX-100 :)



BTW Brandon your story does look interesting from the trailer.

Thanks! I sure think it is, can't wait to cut a more extensive trailer :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[zoostory]

This topic is too general. Distribution varies vastly depending on genre, budget, connections, approach, et cetera. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I think just about any A level distributor is going to slam the door in your face for just about anything... period... especially drama... UNLESS you have connections, a name, or some other proof (in their minds) that it will sell, as Barry mentioned.

You're dealing with half-humans that live off of fear. Fear of getting fired and having to give up their Z4's, condo in the hills, and their outkast CD collection. You have to think like them... if you want to distribute. So you have to really evaluate your project. The Genre, the actors, the medium shot on, your connections.. .EVERYTHING. And if you don't know something, you'de better learn it fast. You have to critique yourself and you have to be realistic with yourself. If you want to do something because you are passionate about it, great, that's how I operate all the time, but my passions don't necessarily line up with market sales, and I know that.

If you want to sell, you HAVE TO understand the markets out there. Foreign pre-sales, predistribs thru lions gate, studios, etc. Sadly, from my experience, in the low budget world of narratives... horror, sci-fi, and sex sell. They'll give you way more lattitude with your shooting format if you make a crappy horror film that is similar to some big release, has a C actor, and som T&A. But is that what you want to do?

There is also the festival world, which is, arguably, in America, THE form of distribution for short films, and the only place an indie drama is even going to have a shot. And if that is the case, you better bring something NEW to the table, or have a worldwind cast (like Little Miss Sunshine), good connections, and a lot of money to self market.

If you're doing docs, whole different story...

So in short, it would be unfair to respond to someone asking if they can shoot their movie on DV, HDV, HDCAM, film, or whatever. It's up to you to do the research, be informed, and make your own decision based on what you want to do with your film.

[s3comm]

In my opinion, moving onto HD is inevidable but for now it's important to know that HD is still being improved and being made more accessible to the public. Price and program contents will be the factors to consider when one should make that switch.

Being located in Asia, many of these technologies will be take more time to reach the everyday normal people. In fact, VCDs are still cheap and very popular here, where people are concern with price rather quality.