Canon Announces New Cameras

[PANA-MAN]

www.usa.canon.com. A1 version is $3999 MSRP. 1/3 CCD'S . 108Oi. 24f (24p as far as me and most people are concerned) 20x lens. Manual Focus, Zoom AND iris. I was going to buy the HVX. I have officially changed my mind as the P2 card thing was keeping me from jumping on it. Consider me in love:love4: :love4: :love4: yeah, yeah...I need to change my name to Cano-man

[Robert Sanders]

Plus audio and timecode embedded into the HD-SDI stream. Which is very sweet.

Canon's purchase of the 24P license must've allowed them to finally embed the audio and TC into HD-SDI as 24p video solo didn't violate patents.

Looks like an XL-H1s is imminent.

[Jarred Land]

yeah H1s should come.. cause the new ones seem to outshoot the H1 in a couple aspects.

[rawfa]

Anyone knows if it has some sort of cine-gama/matrix/etc? I don't understand why didn't they go with true 24p. They bought the rights! I'm dying for JVC and Pana to join in and show some new HD(hdv) cameras.

[Zim]

I wonder how long now before we might see a DVX100 in 16:9?

[Barry_Green]

I doubt you will ever see a standard-def DVX100 in 16:9.

You can get the HVX, which is a 16:9 DVX, or you might get some future AVC-HD based DVX replacement some time down the road, but if you're holding your breath waiting for a 16:9-chip DVX100, I don't think it's going to happen.

[Fugitive]

Any info on how these three cameras differ? And more importantly, how the A1 stacks up againts the Sony FX1? I know we dont have a camera yet, but I am talking about specs, i.e, "technical" differences.

[rawfa]

Man, the more I read about these babies the more I want one. What would be the main difference between the XHA1 and the LXH1? Man, I'm excited. The XHA1 is right around my budget (4us grand it's about 3 thousand euros) and it seems to offer so much more than my Fx1...except the lcd and focus expand. I wish ALL companies would adopt this. It's extremely helpful.

[Barry_Green]

Any info on how these three cameras differ?
Three, as in? A1, G1, XLH1?

A1 & G1 are identical except that the G1 adds the "jack pack", for TC/Genlock/HDSDI, and a $3000 higher price.

G1 & XLH1? XLH1 has interchangeable lenses and a bigger form factor, G1 has wider lens/fixed lens. G1 has embedded audio & TC in the HD-SDI output, XLH1 doesn't. There are a few other things that are different, but internally they look to be the same basic camera.


And more importantly, how the A1 stacks up againts the Sony FX1?
On paper the A1 beats the FX1 like a rented mule. Pimp-slaps it. Hands it its own butt, on a silver platter. Both are 1080i, and 30F is probably equivalent to CF30, but the A1 adds 24F two XLRs and much more telephoto and can be upgraded to PAL/NTSC compatible and can monitor both audio channels seperately and has much, much more image control and has a new "instant" autofocus system.

As for video quality, that remains to be seen obviously.

[PANA-MAN]

My camera collection is growing. XL2, DVX100B, O.G. Optura, Z200, now this...Oi vey...:)

[ecking]

This is the camera I've been dreaming of for over a year.

Jesus, I knew it would come.

[rawfa]

Hey Barry, I was cheking out the cameras' specifications and there's a lot similarities on these cameras to the HVX/DVX (gamma, matrix, knee, black strech, rgb, etc). I know it's a litte early to ask, but any chance you can eventualy make a A1/G1 book? ;-) I have the feeling I might need it pretty soon :D

[Barry_Green]

I've thought about it. It depends on how well it sells. I was originally going to do an XL2 book but the XL2 didn't move off the shelves, so it would be more trouble than the potential rewards were worth.

It looks to me like the A1 might hit a nice acceptance spot, being cheaper than the HVX and far superior in features to the FX1. I'd like to get hands-on time and work with it, and I'd like to see how the market accepts it, and more importantly I'd like to see what develops with AVC-HD.

The A1 may breathe life in a format that seems destined to die. Or Sony may introduce an AVC-HD FX2 that renders the A1 an afterthought. It remains to be seen.

But I'm definitely interested in seeing how this one plays out!

[rawfa]

The A1 may breathe life in a format that seems destined to die. Or Sony may introduce an AVC-HD FX2 that renders the A1 an afterthought.

You are right about the format. This even makes you wonder why didn't they choose AVCHD. What I'm thinking it happened is that Canon had this up their sleeves for some time but was waiting for the right moment, and were surprised by the AVC-HD. But now that AVC-HD showed up as the new hope, they thought it was better to release theses cameras right now while AVC-HD isn't the main thing. And this makes you think that in a long term run, the HVX is the only one in the bunch that is real HD. Hum...intriguing times we live in.

[Zack Birlew]

Well, who knows how AVCHD will do. Maybe HDV will turn out to be the better option in the end. I just want to know if there really is potential for AVCHD to be used for professional application or not.

[Elton]

Anyone knows if it has some sort of cine-gama/matrix/etc?

Yes, it appears to have inherited the XL-H1's cinegamma's, but interestingly enough it seems to have even more tweaks than the H1. Basically finer increments of image control I think. My hope is that the knee circuit is improved.

As an H1 owner I've become fond of Cinegamma2. With HDV you might find that you'll want to push saturation a little however. It helps to make up for the 4:2:0 sampling.


I don't understand why didn't they go with true 24p. They bought the rights! I'm dying for JVC and Pana to join in and show some new HD(hdv) cameras.

They have the same 1440x1080 interlaced chips as the XL-H1, which has some benefits in sensitivity actually, but the 24F algorithim to most people's eyes is a reasonable approximation of 24p. It's basically what the FX1 should've done all along.

[Noel Evans]

On paper the A1 beats the FX1 like a rented mule. Pimp-slaps it. Hands it its own butt, on a silver platter.

Love this comment Barry.

One thing I am totally confused about by Canon. Canon is a Japanese company and they release their cameras here in Japan at a higher cost than they do in America.

I can order the canon XH A1 now for a list price of 575000 which translates to about 5000 USD.

I can buy an HVX here for 510000 yen which translates to about 4400 USD.

Erm choice is pretty simple this end.

[Zim]

Well, who knows how AVCHD will do. Maybe HDV will turn out to be the better option in the end. I just want to know if there really is potential for AVCHD to be used for professional application or not.

it depends on who you ask right now. Barry says it will replace HDV, someone like Douglas Spotted Eagle says AVCHD is only a consumer grade HD. HDV is better.

I would like to see AVCHD. I would like to see Panasonic put it on a DVX100 so we could get 16:9 without buying into the P2 thing. A DVX 100 with tape and a AVCHD slot. $3,500.

I've thought the whole market has been kind of dead the last few months. I'm glad to see Canon pump some life back into it. Let's see if anyone else will do something.

[Barry_Green]

it depends on who you ask right now. Barry says it will replace HDV, someone like Douglas Spotted Eagle says AVCHD is only a consumer grade HD. HDV is better.

There's not one aspect of HDV that's better than AVC-HD, except the cameras that are currently using it. As soon as someone releases an AVC-HD version of a high-def DVX, I think that little argument will disappear.

Put it this way -- if you're going to render a movie for web distribution, do you use H.264? or DivX (an H.264-based codec)? Or XviD? (another H.264-based codec)?

Or do you still render MPEG-2?

MPEG-2 is over.

[Zim]

when is that going to happen Barry? an educated guess?

[Elton]

AVC HD sounds great, but it might have its own teething problems just like HDV had at the beginning. I love the idea that there (hopefully) will be Nvidia or ATI cards that will accelerate encode/decodes but that is a seriously Moore's law dependent algorithm. We can talk all day long about efficiency, but I have my suspicions that AVC will also have some motion artifact possibilites, just like HDV has here and there.

It's still hyper-compressed inter-frame voodoo no matter how you look at it.

[Barry_Green]

It's still hyper-compressed inter-frame voodoo no matter how you look at it.

That it is. That it undoubtedly, definitely is.

I think AVC-HD will be better than HDV in that regard but it is still a low-bitrate long-GOP codec system. AVC-Intra is the name Panasonic's attached to their 50-megabit intraframe only system, and that doesn't have voodoo. So no, I don't think AVC-HD is the ultimate panacea format; I just think that if people are already willing to accept long-gop "hyper-compressed inter-frame voodoo", then they should be thrilled with more-efficient, full-raster, native-24p, uncompressed-audio, cross-platform-compatible hyper-compressed inter-frame voodoo... :thumbsup:

As for when a decent AVC-HD camcorder will show up ... no true clue. I will say that I am quite surprised that Sony didn't announce an AVC-HD FX2 as their first AVC-HD product. Their first DV camcorder was the VX1000, their first HDV product was the FX1, so it just seemed very fitting that their first AVC-HD product would be along the same lines (i.e., an FX2). But instead they put out some comparatively "toy" cameras. As for Panasonic, they haven't said one word about when or what they'll introduce, only that they'll be introducing cameras based on recording to SD memory cards. My guess is we'll see product on store shelves from both manufacturers in time for this winter's holiday season.

[Camera Expert]

Douglas Spotted Eagle did indicate that he have known about the AVCHD format for months and also knows about other Sony AVCHD camcorders that haven’t been announced yet. Is he that legitimate? Barry Green has just as much credit as Douglas but you don’t see Panasonic spilling the beans to Barry Green about their future products.

I don’t understand either why Sony would not want to replace the HDV format.
This may actually mean that Sony could be using 35MBPS MP2 for their next Z1u, just like XD CAM.


I hope in August you will see both Panasonic and Sony announce more camcorders. Also Canon may announce a successor to the GL2 within several days.

[Zim]

hopefully sony and Panasonic announce something soon.

[Emanuel]

Their first DV camcorder was the VX1000, their first HDV product was the FX1, so it just seemed very fitting that their first AVC-HD product would be along the same lines (i.e., an FX2). But instead they put out some comparatively "toy" cameras. As for Panasonic, they haven't said one word about when or what they'll introduce, only that they'll be introducing cameras based on recording to SD memory cards. My guess is we'll see product on store shelves from both manufacturers in time for this winter's holiday season.Indeed anyway, they must be very attentive in order not to harm their HVX or XDCAM-HD sales.

[Jarred Land]

Douglas Spotted Eagle did indicate that he have known about the AVCHD format for months and also knows about other Sony AVCHD camcorders that haven’t been announced yet. Is he that legitimate? Barry Green has just as much credit as Douglas but you don’t see Panasonic spilling the beans to Barry Green about their future products.

I don’t understand either why Sony would not want to replace the HDV format.
This may actually mean that Sony could be using 35MBPS MP2 for their next Z1u, just like XD CAM.


I hope in August you will see both Panasonic and Sony announce more camcorders. Also Canon may announce a successor to the GL2 within several days.


wow someone's told you way more than you should know ha ha ha ... careful the sony police are gonna decend from helicopters when your sleeping and steal you from bed.

[Camera Expert]

Jarred Land,

The part about future AVCHD camcorders sounded misleading. I should have said he knows about future Sony camcorders.

[Camera Expert]

You got way to many companies trying to be like Apple now by keeping everything secret. They either don’t want to jeopardize their sales of previous camcorders or they don’t want the competition to know what their doing.

[Elton]

They either don’t want to jeopardize their sales of previous camcorders or they don’t want the competition to know what their doing.

Exactly how does this not make business sense?

[Jarred Land]

Jarred Land,

The part about future AVCHD camcorders sounded misleading. I should have said he knows about future Sony camcorders.



yes... he is very close with sony and a sony advocate.. i knew what you meant :)

[Kholi]

I hope in August you will see both Panasonic and Sony announce more camcorders. Also Canon may announce a successor to the GL2 within several days.


If that happens, in either of the three manufacterer's cases...

...geez.

I mean, if Canon sets this pricepoint for the A1 at 4k...

Then that pretty much IS the limbo bar. And we're all the party people watching those three trying to best each other.

I haven't felt this good about blowing four-thousand dollars since... wait I've never blown four-thousand dollars at one time before. w00pee.

[epsilonbass]

Sooooo... Back to the who A1 and G1 thing, rather than the whole stewing on the future thing, will the A1 definitely have the xlr jacks on it? Or is that what the jack pack is on the G1?

Every time i think i have my mind made up about which camera to get, something comes to change my mind.

[Kholi]

XLR Jacks are on both cameras.

The Jack Pack is basically an SDI/Uncomressed HD out option.

[Drew Ott]

XLR Jacks are on both cameras.

The Jack Pack is basically an SDI/Uncomressed HD out option.

How much better quality would that be compared to the 4,000 camera if you outed to uncompressed HD?

[Kholi]

How much better quality would that be compared to the 4,000 camera if you outed to uncompressed HD?

That's a question for Barlow.

I'm sure he has comparison clips of uncompressed H1 footage and the lot.

But it's safe to say that there's a significant difference between the two.

[Elton]

How much better quality would that be compared to the 4,000 camera if you outed to uncompressed HD?

That's a question I've been spending some time answering for myself, and the answer is...mixed.

Short answer: SDI and HDV are surprisingly very close in terms of the quality of the raw image output, but there's loads of latitude for cc and heavy post processing with SDI raw signal recording to more robust intra-frame codecs. (Sheer, CineForm, PhotoJPEG) You can push the image to extremes in post without inducing blockies, whereas with HDV, although surprisingly decent to work with when converted to a good intermediate codec...there's still a subtle richness to the SDI image that's undeniable. And of course, SDI contains no compression-induced motion artifacts whatsoever. 24F rarely has any kind of trouble; still it's possible to overwhelm the codec in the most extreme of circumstances. But I'm talking about super-anal stuff that you have to pause on a frame and magnify to notice.

Put it this way: Discovery HD Theater has no problem with SDI recordings of the XL-H1 image, but will possibly quibble with broadcasting HDV unless the post process is immaculate. (onlined to uncompressed rather than HDV tape).

Just to be fair, Discovery is also a little prejudiced against the HVX for full acquisition...not because of the recording format but because of the optical performance of the camera. I don't say that to start another debate...look it up on their producer requirements. Just google "Discovery HD producer guidelines".

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:BqY7IDi3oYIJ:www.discoverychannel.c a/_includes/disclaimer/producers_guide/docs/HDSpec.logo.doc+Discovery+HD+producer+guidelines&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=safari

I'll post a few images later on comparing SDI to HDV output of a recorded scene. One nice thing about the H1 is that you can roll HDV tape (or to a firestore via firewire) while also recording the live uncompressed SDI output simultaneously.

[Drew Ott]

Thanks for the info.

[Elton]

If all you want is the uncompressed signal, it' s also possible to record the analog HD output into said codecs via analog/SDI converters or an HD capture card like the Blackmagic extreme or AJA Xena/Kona. The quality will be basically identical to the SDI.

An A1 and a converter/capture card could do the job and give you a great image, but it won't be nearly as convenient as embedded tc/audio/video SDI that the G1 offers.

[Emanuel]

Barlow, the question is to know if it deserves $3,000?

Who knows when we will have a recorder device?... And it wouldn't be necessary an uncompressed solution -- a 10-bit Cineform one it would be fine! But when?

Your link (that we already know but it's always time to remember) is useful in order to see how the HDV is a non-broadcast format. The uncompressed option would be an interesting alternative but I'm asking to myself if the conversion via analog/HD-SDI converts will be noticeable comparing with HD-SDI capture.

[Elton]

Barlow, the question is to know if it deserves $3,000?

IMHO, yes.

You have to consider that the G1 goes beyond HDV. It can give you a practical option to record even better HD quality to any format that works for you, or it can be a useful, professionally workable camera on a multi-cam shoot.

Gotta love options.

[San-Ban]

hi there

i have noticed that the rough price of the canon XHA1 in the usa will be $3999
so i thought might be interested as i will move up to HD eventually.

As i live in PAL land (uk) i thought this would be about the same price as a
sony FX1 in uk i know the prices are always higher in uk but having checked
out a reputable dealer i was amazed how much again we get ripped off in uk
compared to states the price is with vat £3.519 pounds so in dollars thats a
hellava more than $3999 dollars so i am thinking again any ideas.

[androbot2084]

The thing I don't like about the Canon is that they give you the same old 1080i interlace format. 1080i used to make sense because 8 years ago most of the HD televisions were the 1080i CRT interlaced format. But today most people buy flat panel HD televisions that are natively progressive. So it makes sense to shoot in the progressive format. 720p at 60 frames per second is the best broadcasted high definition for the fast action sports and it is even better that 1080i60 or 1080p24. And with all this talk about only 1080i being real high definition its nice to know that Panasonic still supports 720p as the best high definition. Now of course Canon supports 1080f24 but I don't think that 1080f is that much of an improvement over 720p24.

[Zim]

Have you seen any footage for the canon at 1080i/24f? I would like to see it.

Speaking of not making sense, the DVX100 a filmmakers camera with no 16:9 chips?

[Elton]

Are you aware that the extra horizontal resolution of 1080i can make better 720p than a lot of 720p cameras?
It's easy to just write-off any interlace format but there's more to 1080i than you would think at first blush.

It's probably more multi-format capable than 720...and I like 720 progressive. It's just that there's more to the story than just poo-pooing 1080i.

[Nathyn]

The A1 may breathe life in a format that seems destined to die.
Destined to die? What's the basis? Everyone and their momma is supporting HDV. FCP 6 will have support for the Cannon 24f and people have gone gaga over the format. The fact that people are already burning HDDVDs from their Macs based on the HDV format say something in itself. The question is are we ready for a new format war or will ACV and HDV co-exist side by side. If AVC is already compatible with people's editing systems (which I believe it will be for the Apples and others) then I think it will take off.

If prosumers and filmmakers are satisfied with the HD images they're getting from their FX1s, H1, HD100s, and HVXs I think they'll wait. Example: Like the XL and DVX100 (and VX line from Sony) The HD100 (an HDV camera) has quite a fan base. I don't know how sales are going but those who have it seems to lose their mind after they get and shoot with one. I think JVC fixed the SSE without people knowing and added some kind of hypno thing to it, because these people seem to love it. You're going to have to pry these cams out of the users cold dead hands or come up with something way better.

People like me are the people to impress, those who haven't bought into a system yet. I'm looking at a Mac Book (I could actually buy one in a few weeks but I'm waiting) and possibly one of these A1s. I'm pushing for Panasonic. If they do an ACVHD 100 to replace the DVX100 I'm game. I love the image from my DVX100 but ACV giving me the quality of HD and the space (or more) of DV I will buy this in a heartbeat.

The Canon does (as of now) have the Panasonic beat in design and space saving ability, plus no P2. And by the time I get ready to buy one FCP 6 will be out and tested, so if Panasonic or Sony come out with something hotter by then, they'll have my attention, but once I buy I'm not going to be playing this switching game. I know people still working with the XL1 or XL1s and love it like I do the DVX. I was thinking of trying to get an XL2 but everytime I think about selling my DVX100 I just can't do it but this A1 is a different story. The HDV space saving codec, image handling and top mounted flip out monitor makes all the difference. I've played with the XL and don't really mind the feel of the focus rings so that's not an issue. The AI is everything I wish someone had (and finally has) made.


Or Sony may introduce an AVC-HD FX2 that renders the A1 an afterthought. It remains to be seen.
AVC FX2 means nothing to me if it doesn't have 24p and knowing Sony it won't. I think I'd jump to buy a Sony cam that can do 24p like the DVX100 in HDV/ACV if it's the same image quality Sony is known for and after Barry or Adam Wilt or someone looks it over and it's proven of course (because we know Sony will lie if they feel they have too, remember the FX1 24p question). Of course in the end I buy nothing until I see the footage. And honestly I always find it difficult to completely trust Sony. I know the image is good but I always find myself questioning what they will do to undermine the consumer (prosumer).

-Nate

[Zim]

Nate I agree if panasonic would make a move that would give me native 16:9 I would listen. I'd even try out AVCHD. But I have the money sitting in the bank and if they don't do something I'll probably own a Canon XH-A1 in October.

If they don't then I guess we can see AVCHD as a handycam type camera for a few years.

[Nathyn]

But no one's doing HDV at 1080i/720p/24p on DVD. This is the next and obvious step. DVDs are supercheap. Making a camera that burned footage to DVD 4s or 9 (like the XDCams but only using DVDs) would be awesome and would surely give P2 a run for it's money, plus it would bring the price of DVD 9's down. $600 for 4gb versus $1.00 or less per disc. How much 1080i HDV footage can fit on a DVD.

-Nate

[Elton]

How much 1080i HDV footage can fit on a DVD.-Nate


On a DVD 4 probably about 20 min. for 25mbs HDV.

I would think it would be have to be some kind of mini-BluRay/HD DVD disc to do it in a camcorder. Imagine what the camera would have to look like to have housing for full-size disks?

[Nathyn]

20 minutes? How doable is that?

-Nate

[androbot2084]

I am really not looking for any extra horizontal resolution for 720p and to be framk with you I hate it when they use 1080i video cameras on a 720p sports channel. However this is an on the fly live broadcasting conversion so it may be that given the proper time for rendering 1080i can be converted to 720p with good quality.

[Elton]

I understand what you mean and it's not like I'm going to argure that a combed/interlaced frame is ideal. The fact is that good 1080i can look pretty amazing when fields are converted to frames and then scrunched into the 1280x720 frame. The other fact is that 1080i, for better or worse, is the HD broadcasting standard for the foreseeable future, (with the exception of ESPN and Fox) and with the proper conversions it should look excellent on 720p HD sets too.

At home I have a 1080i/720p Sony CRT RPTV, a Sony 720p HD projector and a Gateway 21" LCD monitor with HDTV inputs (component and DVI) with Faroudja processing/deinterlacing. Canon HDV 1080i has always looked stunning for its lucid, hyper-real look on all of them. Same with Discovery HD 1080i.

Most 720p HDTV's have deinterlace processing anyway so the issue is fairly moot. The way I see it is horizontal resolution has a lot of value too, and that's why all my cross-conversions from XL-H1 1080i have always looked stunning as 720 60p.

[CineDreams]

Just when I made up my mind to get the p2 now people are mentioning the H1s! I happen to be a former canon xl lover until I got turned on to the p2. I'm seeling all my xl equipment. does anyone know waht the changes are going to be for the H1s? Just when you thought you had it all figured out, they hand you something new!