Red Accessories (Aka Support)

[evinsky]

Reposting this one to keep it on track:

Well, the lens thread is purring along quite nicely now so I thought I'd address my next major concern, camera support.

There were many suggestions about this during the contest but I'd like to take it back to basics. If you own a RED you need a few more goodies to effectively get out and shoot. Since storage is still a little ambigous let's keep this thread to things you can either screw, bolt or clamp on to the camera.

What I own from my HVX/DVX system that can be used with RED:

Vinten Vision 6 and 2 stage tripod legs.
Chrosziel 41150 mattebox
Schneider 4x4 True Pol, .3 & .6 NDs .3, .6 and .9 ND Grads.
Panasonic BTLH-900a 8.5" HD mointor w/HDSDI

What I can see myself needing:

Follow focus, really don't know which one yet. But I will probably get the Redrock focus gears for still lenses no matter what.
A Red Tri handle cage with somesort of shoulder support.
I think the body will have rod support but I'm not sure, so if not I'll have to have another custom bridge plate machined.
Eventually I'd like a heavy duty head and sticks ala Oconnor' HD.
Some sort or zoom motor may be necessary but also may fall under the "Rent it" category
Laser Rangefinder, this is easy to get, probably the Hilti, it's got an optical sight.
lens supports?

Any other thoughts?

[tonacidigital]

that OConner 1030 HD seems like it would be a nice match for a fully rigged RED.

http://www.ocon.com/doc04fhd.htm

[Jarred Land]

Im hoping my Cartoni focus will handle the RED.. its payload tops out at 22lbs.

Arri Mattebox is gonna probally wrap my lens.

[taubkin]

They have to come up with some way to use the RED camera shoudermounted like a regular camera. Someone has to!

[adaml]

I'd like see a nice shouldermount with support rod ala dvrigpro. Maybe they'll make an upscale version for the RED? I have some ideas, Danny, if you're interested. :)

[tnle2]

My choice would also be the OConnor 1030HD. Too bad it cost nearly $6K. But, hey, a camera like the RED deserves the very best in camera support and OConnor is the best in fluid heads.

If I had the money, I would also choose an Arri mattebox. I've always liked the way they "look" the most and it doesn't hurt that they're well made.

[JTmoney]

Im hoping my Cartoni focus will handle the RED.. its payload tops out at 22lbs.

Arri Mattebox is gonna probally wrap my lens. Jarred, That is one nice tripod head and at a nice price point. Do you think at 22lbs it would be cutting it kind of close? I mean with everything like cage, rods, heavy cin lens mattebox and so on?

[Emanuel]

Here is an interesting topic. Thanks Evin.

[D_and_G]

Anyone considering a steadicam ?

And evinsky, how needed do you think the 8.5" monitor will be, especially if you have a 17"(with connection kit) BTH1700W attatched ? (just wondering)



:beer:


RED # wish I was higher

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, That is one nice tripod head and at a nice price point. Do you think at 22lbs it would be cutting it kind of close? I mean with everything like cage, rods, heavy cin lens mattebox and so on?

yeah thats why im keeping my fingers crossed. We dont know what the new modular body looks like so we dont know the weight of the camera yet, but im looking seeing if it will work.

[Jarred Land]

Anyone considering a steadicam ?

And evinsky, how needed do you think the 8.5" monitor will be, especially if you have a 17"(with connection kit) BTH1700W attatched ? (just wondering)



:beer:


RED # wish I was higher

bth1700 is gonna be pretty underpixeled for the Red.. it will work, but i would much prefer using a 1080p monitor at that 17" size. for a 8" though it should do just fine.

[D_and_G]

bth1700 is gonna be pretty underpixeled for the Red.. it will work, but i would much prefer using a 1080p monitor at that 17" size. for a 8" though it should do just fine.What would your choice be in a 17"+, or if you had to choose just between a 8" and a 17", which would you choose? ...With regards to location shooting (on narrative features), i'm assuming most people will be using a video village, especially with 2K filming. Is this a premature assumption on my part ?

That's part of the debate i'm having with my biz partner now, is how we should budget and configure the RED setup. Considering, that I am more interested in getting the most efficient/quality for narrative features for film blow up, and she wants to have a wider scope for configuring the cam...Maybe we'll have to buy two cams :beer:

And do you think the onboard RED LCD will be good enough for critical focus work at 2K, or would the 8.5 be needed ? But, it's probably to soon to tell.

I'll tell you what though, i'm glad we're having this discussion now, and to have this great site as a sounding board, far in advance of RED's release. I want to make the transition to 2K as smooth as possible... :beer:



RED# wish I was higher

[evinsky]

I'm positive critiacal focus will be possible with the on board LCD but it will most likely be through some sort of focus assist or other magnification.
The 8.5" Panasonic monitor I have will do 1024 Pixels wide which I believe is enough for critical focusing, and it has an HD zoom feature as well. However this monitor obviously can't show you the whole image, you'll need to come up with something bigger and 1080P at least to know what's really there.

[D_and_G]

The 8.5" Panasonic monitor I have will do 1024 Pixels wide which I believe is enough for critical focusing, and it has an HD zoom feature as well. However this monitor obviously can't show you the whole image, you'll need to come up with something bigger and 1080P at least to know what's really there.Thanks Evin. :beer:

What does the 8.5" go for (approx.)?

I guess i'm wondering which one to budget for - the 8.5" Panasonic, or a tethered HD monitor via HDMI. Ideally, it would be best to have both - one suited for the operator and one suited for the cinematographer/director etc...but perhaps budget may not allow that...

Here's a quote from an interesting ASC article on Mann's Collateral - “An odd byproduct of the HD world, especially with so much handheld operation, was that our focus pullers, John Grillo and Glen Brown, ended up working primarily via remote focus, sitting at the monitor. The HD monitors are so crisp and sharp that the best way to judge critical focus is simply to watch the monitor." Edit : That's not to say that it will be the case with RED, but it's something I was contemplating (especially with action flicks).


Also, do you know if RED will be doing a (in camera) downconversion to send out to monitors?

Hopefully, i'm not bringing this too far off topic :)

I would love to know how much gear people are planning on buying. I know for me, i'll definately go looking for a complete package (and discount) for the amount of gear i'm going to have to purchase. Maybe Abel Cine could come up with a RED package, with a DVX user discount of course, if we all buy at the same time... :grin:



RED# wish I was higher

[Jarred Land]

What would your choice be in a 17"+, or if you had to choose just between a 8" and a 17", which would you choose? ...With regards to location shooting (on narrative features), i'm assuming most people will be using a video village, especially with 2K filming. Is this a premature assumption on my part ?


RED# wish I was higher

this is actually a great thing to think about now as you mention. Ive obviously used both the 8.5 and the 17 and in my opinion the 8.5 kills the 17".. the 17" is an odd size for production, a little big to be rocking around with in the field, and too small to put infront of a group of clients.

To me personally, i would go with the 8 inch for critical desisions, then get a 32" 1080p monitor for use in the studio.

We all gotta see what RED comes up with though.. cause if they have a gorgeous large Hi Def onboard then the 8.5" may become less necessary... although you could use whichever one is better for the operator and give your AC the lower of the two.

[D_and_G]

To me personally, i would go with the 8 inch for critical desisions, then get a 32" 1080p monitor for use in the studio. Yup. Thanks Jared. That's a good compromise.

And with the RED team making the LCD separate and thus mountable anywhere on the cage, you can upgrade your LCD to match improvements and save a bundle. Not to mention the variety of configs for operators. :beer:

RED# wish i was higher

[Proteus]

There are some 15" WUXGA (1920x1200) LCD displays produced for laptop manufacturers. It is possible to order such a display along with the controller (especially if it's a group order) and place it in a plastic frame to make an economical and relatively compact full HD monitor at full resolution.

Such a group order was:
http://members.cox.net/minoten/contents.shtml

http://members.cox.net/minoten/header.jpg

Here is a Tohiba LCD page which has a 15.4" WUXGA display:
http://tmd-product.tmdisplay.com/index_e.cfm

Although I listed the above links, the best source might be a small custom laptop manufacturer (assembler) that uses such displays or has access to such conpanies. Someone could use a laptop, but that's far less convenient, expensive and it will most likely have a delay.

EDIT:
These displays have a low power consumption, so you can use a 12V to [120/240]V AC inverter to operate them from batteries.

[Emanuel]

Good tip Proteus. I appreciate very much your inputs as well your POV regarding our affordable needs. Thanks.

[Proteus]

BTW, these guys used the displays to make a custom DIY full HD very low cost projector! So if you can't afford Sony's Qualia at $30,000 you can build your own for less than $1500 (@ 1920x1200) so you can enjoy RED !
see: http://www.lumenlab.com/

[Emanuel]

Saving the world from bad TV...

Lol

EDIT -- Did you experience any presentation from a DIY projector like that?

[tonacidigital]

holy smokes. I browsed through the lu men lab forum. impressive stuff. fortunately I have an electronics guru who I can bribe to make one for me. I'll post results when done.

[Proteus]

EDIT -- Did you experience any presentation from a DIY projector like that?

No, but I might make one (@ full HD) next winter. I like to optimize things to the max, so I'll most likely take a different approach though...
About their implementation, their forum is huge, so if you read enough you can understand more or less the ins and outs.

Currently I enjoy very much my Sony VPL-HS20 projector (1300 hours so far) @ max input 1280x720 which scales internally to it's native 1366x768 on 100" wide screen..

But because I am used to my 23" apple cinema monitor @ 1920x1200, I would like to see that res on big screen and start enjoying at the maximum the Blu Ray and HD-DVD movies that are already out...and my footage of course. The 1080p trailers on this monitor are simply amazing!

[Gibby]

And do you think the onboard RED LCD will be good enough for critical focus work at 2K, or would the 8.5 be needed ? But, it's probably to soon to tell.

Hmmmm…it hasn’t been to soon for Jim Jannard, Stuart English, and other RED development team members to tell us about what they have planned for onboard screen monitoring and focus assist with RED one.

Obviously RED reserves the right to change the RED One specs as necessary, and a final spec sheet has not been published for the camera, but what have RED development team members stated concerning their intentions for the on-board screen, focus assist, and outboard monitoring options?

Jim Jannard’s statement about the on-board screen planned for RED One, and off-camera monitoring buses, in my exclusive interview with him on 4/3/06, published in Studio Daily, 4/14/06:

“We’re still working on which exact screen we’re going to use. The idea is to get something larger than 31/2”, and higher resolution than what you’ve typically seen before. If there is a problem associated with shooting 35mm depth of field, it is the ability to focus, and a high-resolution display helps make critical focusing possible. So a high-resolution LCD - it may or may not in-fact be an LCD - serves double duty obviously, or maybe not so obviously, for focus and also the menus.

You also have the ability to use a larger LCD or any other monitor that the camera will drive, either separately, or in conjunction with the onboard LCD. In addition, we’re providing a HDMI digital viewfinder port for somebody who wants to add an accessory electronic viewfinder, like an AccuScene, or something else that may come up. So for those who are used to shooting with viewfinders, as opposed to LCD’s, we’re enabling that option.”

Jim Jannard, DV Info, 5/1/06, on focusing with the RED One on-board screen:

“Pulling focus will be the big surprise to those moving up from 1/3" or 2/3" sensors. It is a whole new ballgame. Standard LCD's won't cut it. It will take a new "trick" not seen before to help the shooter focus accurately without an optical finder (which many will tell you is still a challenge in lower light conditions). I think we have one.”

Stuart English, DV Info, 5/10/06, when listing standard and optional equipment planned for RED One:

“Flip out hi res LCD… HDMI / DVI monitoring…”

I could list several other references to RED development team members referring to their development goal of making the on-board screen “high-res”, or “high resolution”, and to make the focus assist function unique and effective for accurate critical focus.

Technology and/or resolution of the on-board screen? They haven’t released any confirmation of the exact technology or resolution, other than confirming that it will be “high-res” or “high resolution”. It could be LCD, OLED, nono-LcoS, or whatever. There are obviously 1080p-capable screens out there. Will it be 1080p? It hasn’t been confirmed or denied, but they have stated repeatedly that it will be high resolution and enable the effective use of RED’s new focus assist technology.

High-resolution outboard monitoring of RED One? They have confirmed their intention of putting HDMI (which is backward compatible with DVI), dual HD-SDI, and a high-speed serial data port to enable the likes of Infiniband, etc. There should be no shortage of high-resolution monitoring options with Red One beyond the multi-placement onboard screen.

Considering the above, if by chance the on-board “high-res” screen and focus assist functions dance together really well, it follows that it may be feasible to obtain critical focus at resolutions of 2k and lower completely with that screen – no need for an 8.5” or larger outboard monitor, unless you want one, in which case the HDMI, HD-SDI, and high-speed serial data ports give you many options. For real mobile production, ENG-style, Steadycam, etc., it would be awesome if the multi-position onboard screen and focus assist were so good that another larger outboard screen was not needed…

It's going to be interesting when the final spec sheet is published, don't ya think?!

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com

[Proteus]

holy smokes. I browsed through the lu men lab forum. impressive stuff. fortunately I have an electronics guru who I can bribe to make one for me. I'll post results when done.

I'd suggest you to read as much as you can and use their "pro" lens. Also make the ventilation better by placing two fans, one blowing in and one out. If you go for this, I wish you good luck! :)

[Proteus]

“Standard LCD's won't cut it. It will take a new "trick" not seen before to help the shooter focus accurately without an optical finder (which many will tell you is still a challenge in lower light conditions). I think we have one.”
From this statement it seems that most likely they are going to use a medium res-panel along with a “trick” “not seen before”. What matters, is to prove effective..

For real mobile production, ENG-style, Steadycam, etc., it would be awesome if the multi-position onboard screen and focus assist were so good that another larger outboard screen was not needed…
Amen…

It's going to be interesting when the final spec sheet is published, don't ya think?!
Well, I prefer to wait for the first review before I get excited..

[D_and_G]

Considering the above, if by chance the on-board “high-res” screen and focus assist functions dance together really well, it follows that it may be feasible to obtain critical focus at resolutions of 2k and lower completely with that screen – no need for an 8.5” or larger outboard monitor, unless you want one, in which case the HDMI, HD-SDI, and high-speed serial data ports give you many options. For real mobile production, ENG-style, Steadycam, etc., it would be awesome if the multi-position onboard screen and focus assist were so good that another larger outboard screen was not needed…

It's going to be interesting when the final spec sheet is published, don't ya think?!

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.comThanks for the summary Gibby. I have full faith in the team of RED to make focus smooth for 2K resolutions. That's not in question for me. My only caveat was using a follow focus during a complex action scene (like in Collateral) using a variety of lenses. It's the ease of use for the complex shots, delegation of composition etc... that has to be balanced against how thrid part products may improve either of those. And frankly, i'm budgeting for something that will has a built in waveform and vectorscope anyway (although that certainly isn't a necessity for using RED effectively)... thus my interest in peoples workflow on set. I wouldn't be buying the camera if i didn't think that it could be used smoothly without the add ons, but i'd be crazy not to explore them :beer:

Heck, 2K is a brave new world indeed. This time around i'm keeping my expectations in check, while getting ready to let the RED revolution out of the dock. BTW, your last sentence sounds like some little dickie bird has given you a glimpse of the specs. Give me a hint, will ya?, I won't tell :grin: :beer: :beer:





RED# wish I was higher

[mike the beginner]

Good post Gibby. I really dont think Red will give us an LCD that will not be capable of good focus with resolutions up to 2k. The LCD might not be big enough for some but i expect it will do the job. It's worth noting that Red both in its specs and its thoughts does not do things in half measures.

Michael

[Gibby]

Postscript-

Graeme Nattress post yesterday (7/23/06) on the RED: Focus Assist thread on this forum:

“IF you're happy with a green light, then I think what we have in camera as a focus assist will not just blow your socks off, but the rest of your clothes too. You'll have to wait and see, but I think you'll be rather impressed.”

Proteus – I agree on the mid-res probability on the screen, but I have my fingers crossed for higher. I’ll be excited when the spec sheet is finalized and released, because I have confidence that what they state the camera will do, will be accurate for how the camera will perform. Analyzing each of the development teams backgrounds, each has a history of delivering on what they say they’ll do. Like you, I’ll also be way amped if the field tests demonstrate that the camera maximizes the spec sheet, but frankly, I won’t be surprised.

D & G – Nah, I’ve had no peeks at the final spec sheet. I’m just connecting the dots on what was said by the development team about the screen, what technology is practical, available, and cost-effective, and the history/mentality of the development team that I mentioned in the paragraph above to Proteus. I personally believe that whatever they come up with will be an effective solution to the mobile monitoring/focus assist conundrum.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com