What is the point of having two hypercardiod mics?

[Yardsale]

I am close to buying a pair of Oktava MK012's because of the rave reviews here, but what is the need for a pair? Would I be ok with just one? I also have a shotgun mic already.

[Charli]

What if one goes out? Then what will you do? What if you have multiple actors
in different parts of the room? One is a start but by no means the end of buying.

Charli

[Yardsale]

Hrm, so if I had two people speaking at once, I'd set up one per? Because they go into separate inputs, the audio would be in separate channels, correct?

[Charli]

You can have two people talking into the same mic, think about the movies how
you see the boom operator holding the mic over the heads of the actors. My
point was if you had actors away from each other, and you are filming them
both in the same scene (not cutting away from one another).

First, Yard, before you buy, IMAGINE what your first project will need. Imagine
the script. Imagine the scenes. Once you know the basic set up, you will have
a jumping off place.

Consider how many actors, interior/exterior locations, etc. I am about finished with
the draft of my first short. I have a good idea what I need now. That does not
however mean I will not need more equipment for the next shoot, and so on.

Rent when you should, buy ONLY if you plan on making this a long term investment.

Charli

[vidled]

"What is the point of having two [hypercardioid] mics?"

ORTF!

(also with cardioid though)

[Yardsale]

You can have two people talking into the same mic, think about the movies how
you see the boom operator holding the mic over the heads of the actors. My
point was if you had actors away from each other, and you are filming them
both in the same scene (not cutting away from one another).

First, Yard, before you buy, IMAGINE what your first project will need. Imagine
the script. Imagine the scenes. Once you know the basic set up, you will have
a jumping off place.

Consider how many actors, interior/exterior locations, etc. I am about finished with
the draft of my first short. I have a good idea what I need now. That does not
however mean I will not need more equipment for the next shoot, and so on.

Rent when you should, buy ONLY if you plan on making this a long term investment.

Charli
Hrm good point. Well the short I'm doing is very dialogue heavy and a good amount of it is indoors and I was hoping to do some wide shots with two subjects, so the two mics will probably be a necessity.

[Yardsale]

Also another question that just occurred to me, if you had to choose between buying wireless lavs or hypercardiod mics to record dialogue, which would you choose and why? I might be a one-man-show for a while so it's likely I won't have a boom operator to help me out, so the wireless lav's look appealing.

[MattinSTL]

Total apples and oranges comparison... totally.

If you have the money for a couple of G2 sets and countryman b6 lavs... we're talking around $1700 + shipping here... and you want to be a total one-man band then that's how I would do it.

If possible I'd get a completely supported hyper (meaning screen/mount/pole) and get familiar with it. You'll learn a lot about sound in a short period of time.

If you don't want to learn as much and have as much control then lavs are pretty solid... but it's pricey to cover a scene that way and you lose ambient character... "sterile sound" is often better anyway, but sometimes it doesn't sound right... of course you can always fix it in post. (insert suicidal smilie here)

I couldn't make it w/o the hypers personally... they are my goto mics.

[Charli]

Listen to Matt, he knows what he's talking about. One of my recent questions here
was what mic to buy to back up my Oktava, I was told -- duh, another Oktava.
Sometimes the answer is right in front of our nose, well, my nose is kinda of short
and hard to see, so I can see why I missed it (rolling eyes here) - ha ha, I crack
myself up.

Oh God, I must be tired.

Yard, if most of your shots are interior, not sure why you bought a shotgun, though
it wil serve you well in the long run.

Charli

[Yardsale]

Listen to Matt, he knows what he's talking about. One of my recent questions here
was what mic to buy to back up my Oktava, I was told -- duh, another Oktava.
Sometimes the answer is right in front of our nose, well, my nose is kinda of short
and hard to see, so I can see why I missed it (rolling eyes here) - ha ha, I crack
myself up.

Oh God, I must be tired.

Yard, if most of your shots are interior, not sure why you bought a shotgun, though
it wil serve you well in the long run.

Charli
it's my roommate's, i'm just borrowing it :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[tallrd]

I wanted to address your questions as I came from a live/recording audio background, and I think the info I have will be of use here. In the video world, a pair of mics doesn't make a ton of practical sense (at least not in the sense that Oktava is selling them), although redundancy can be a good thing if you can afford it.

"Pairs" of mics (especially "matched pairs" --i.e. consecutive serial numbers) are typically used for overhead drum miking or choir miking in recording audio. The idea is that you can have a stereo image captured by 2 of the most sonically similar microphones. That's why most people buy pairs of microphones for critical stereo recordings (for capturing the stereo image of the sound stage of an orchestra, for example).

*EDIT* As for which is better for capturing dialog or monolog for video using lav mics, "hypercardioid" is far from what I would recommend. Directionality, is however necessary for boom miking. "Omnidirectional" is usually the way to go for lavs, especically when you have dialog. This eliminates phasing common with having 2 directional mics in close proximity. "Cardioid" comes from the latin term "cardio" ("heart" --I think). Take a heart, flip it upside down, and put it on top of the head of a mic--that's a "cardioid" mic and is representative of how it responds to sound around it's capsule. For a "hypercardioid," take that same upside-down heart, and squeeze it on the sides. That's representetive of how a "hypercardioid" (close to a "supercardioid") mic would pick up sound around it's capsule. As the name implies, "omnidirectional" mics pick up from everywhere.

[tallrd]

Pros of Omni mics:

-most accurate sonic footprint of any pick-up pattern.

-great for dialog or monolog due to lack of phasing between performers, and
most uniform pick up when the head is turned away from the capsule.

-easy to get a great sounding mic in a small size, which is good for low-profile miking.

-ambient noise rejection is very low which is good for capturing the "vibe" of a room in which the talent is working/speaking.

Cons of Omni mics:

-lowest gain before feedback, so if there is live sound reinforcement close in proximity to the mic relative to the sound source (i.e. voice), this will feedback the easiest.

-ambient noise rejection is very low. Ever watched the evening news while the newscaster is covering a news story at a local bar? You will know if they are using an omni mic because you will barely hear them over the crowd; all the ambient noise coupled with the broadcast compression will squash it.

Pros of a cardioid mic:

-rejects feedback fairly well, without sacrificing a ton of off-axis response.

-good for noisy environments. You would be able to hear that same newscaster much better in that bar during the evening news.


Cons of a cardioid mic:

-because of how they manufacturer cardioid mics, the sound is not as natural as if it were an omni. Their are small chambers behind the capsule which cause phasing in certain directions from the capsule thus resulting in your "directionality."


Pros of a hyper/supercardioid mic:

-highest gain before feedback in environments with reinforced sound.

-highest ambient noise rejection level. Shotgun mics use an even tighter pickup patter which is what enables them to point at a scene and get what they are pointing at, and not pick up a lot of what they aren't.

Cons of hyper's and super's:

-if/when the talent turns their head from the mic, and they are effectively gone from the recording.

-sounds even less natural due to more manipulation of the phasing in the capsule area.

As you can see, no one mic is good for all things. Each has their place, and I hope this helps some of you.

Feel free to email me or call if you have futher questions during the day.

[Yardsale]

Yikes, sounds like if I'm going to pick up an Oktava, I should be prepared to buy the different patterns.

So my question to you is, I can mike two people talking just fine with one mic? No need for two?

[tallrd]

As another forum member mentioned, think of the application or the scene. Are they close together? Will they be in a quiet area, or a loud environment. All of these things should be considered, as there is no one mic that I can recommend.

A saw should not be used where you need a hammer, and this is a useful analogy for applying the proper mics to the proper scene.

If it's a somewhat quiet environment, go with omni's. If you apply enough compression in post, you *might* be able to get away with one mic for both performers and still yield an even volume between the 2. Ideally, I would recommend getting a mic for each performer (and that's my opinion as an audio guy, not a salesguy ;) )

[ptalsky]

If you're going to buy two, it's a good idea to get a matched pair. I've had many situations where I've had two booms up and having a matched pair has saved me every time. It's all about what you can afford and what types of jobs you're doing. Since I never know what some crazy director has in mind, I have a large mixed bag of tricks I can pull out at a moments notice and look like a hero. ;-)

Phil

[Yardsale]

If I have a pair of matched mics, and I am recording two subjects in conversation, one mic to each, I can just snake the xlr cables into my camera right? No need for mixer? I'm a bit tight on cash

[wabbit]

If you get two boom poles and two shock mounts. One mic covers most blocking indoors. It is always a plus to have a second boom mic for cases where the boom can't make it to the other speaker, like if the speaker is on the other side of a door frame in background.

Although that situation comes up a fair amount, situations where you have to go wireless come up with greater frequency. So, if you are building your kit, wireless would come before multiple hypers IMHO. On the other hand, the $500 it will cost you to have a second boom mic option will only buy you one cheap wireless and two wireless is pretty much a minimum for 95% of wireless situations.

Basically spending minimal cash on sound will cover you in mimimal situations.

The best advice on a budget is the dirty R word...rent. Rent a full kit and learn what pieces of it you need the most then start investing (and when you do that you will learn that you really need a mixer, even if theoratically you can work without one).

Cheers

[ptalsky]

Just to reiterate what Wabbit said, most of the time I am only using one mic on a boom at a time (with wireless thrown in as backup). The most recent situation I used two was on a two camera shoot where they were shooting two conversations at opposite ends of a hall, using a mirror in the hall to connect the two couples. Hyper on each couple, with sound going into each camera (their choice, though I ran double for the single camera work that night).

If you're going to be doing lots of different projects that you aren't directing, having lots of options in your bag is a good thing.

And, I also agree with Wabbit that the best way to find out what will work best for you is to try lots of things - so rent. Some of us here have gone the other way, bought lots of stuff then sold it after trying it/upgrading to better.

Also, don't be afraid of used equipment, especially from the more reputable houses like Trew or Coffey or Location. I've gotten some great deals on used equipment (always leave enough time for the equipment to go back to the manufacturer to be checked out, though. Just to be safe.)

Phil

[MattinSTL]

No offense but please ignore the advice above to get an OMNI... that is the worst advice ever.

All the issues about phasing, etc. will not be a concern for you... the most challenging issue with good video sound is not even what the mic picks up as much as it is about what the mic does NOT pick up! Pattern control is everything... it determines your wanted sound to unwanted sound ratio.

Music is recorded on a studio or in other environments where the music is either paid it's due respect as everyone is there to hear it OR it's 100X louder (relative to the mic) then the other sounds around it.

Nobody would go out in various less-then-perfect environments in the real world and then try to mic an ACOUSTIC instrument at distances that would allow you to videotape the instrument w/o seeing the mic...

Don't waste your $$$ on an omni. It will see very little use in the real world of shooting video.

There are only 2 omnis which see frequent use... a lav, because it can be put really close to the mouth (ON the person)... and an ENG stickmic like the RE50, because it's SO insensitive that it hears a tiny bubble of sound and the reporter holds it RIGHT to his mouth and then RIGHT to the other people's mouths... as you can see on ANY news report. So unless you want the mic to be a major feature of all your shots... or you can hide it ON the person (as in lav) then the omni will not get used.

Music can benefit from the acoustics of a space... dialog will usually be overcome by room acoustics... do NOT get the OMNI... I don't make this stuff up... The Schoeps CMC6 MK41 is the most popular dialog mic in the world... it's a hyper... do NOT get an omni... if you think you can boom with an omni you are going to be sadly mistaken with the $$$ you spend.

If you want to boom 2 or 3 people with one mic and they are very close to each other then you can go to cardioid... that still gives you a controlled pattern, but wider... and the rear lobe of the mic mostly ignores what is behind it... which still gives you some control over the acoustic space, and the ability to dial out some unwanted sounds... but by and far the practice is to use more mics with more control rather then one mic to chance it all. On this level the cardioid is an acceptable work-around to mic more people, as long as they are all still close to that mic.

If you have distances that will introduce phasing problems then phasing problems will be the least of your problems... mics need to be AT THE MOST 5' away from mouths... and they should be as close as possible... 2-3' is usually good.

[Charli]

Let's think of this logically. Omnidirectional picks up sound equally from all
directions. Unidirectional rejects sound coming from behind but picks up sound
from the front.

If you want to pick up the actor's voice with a boom pole and maybe not the
snifflings of the boom operator, which type of mic would you most lean toward?

Cardioid is the most common type of unidirectional microphones. My suggestion to
you is for you to first read up on microphones before you buy. Go to shure.com
website:

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us_pro/documents/web_resource/us_pro_audiovideoproduction_ea.pdf

Learn a thing or two and decide for yourself. I bought the Bello Nero from Sound-Room,
no regrets and will buy another to have a match pair. That's my choice after
having read this article and the advice from Matt and Yankee on these boards.

Charli

[ScoobySounds]

first read up on microphones before you buy. Go to shure.com

Charli

not 'Full Compass'

:happy:

[Yardsale]

No offense but please ignore the advice above to get an OMNI... that is the worst advice ever.

All the issues about phasing, etc. will not be a concern for you... the most challenging issue with good video sound is not even what the mic picks up as much as it is about what the mic does NOT pick up! Pattern control is everything... it determines your wanted sound to unwanted sound ratio.

Music is recorded on a studio or in other environments where the music is either paid it's due respect as everyone is there to hear it OR it's 100X louder (relative to the mic) then the other sounds around it.

Nobody would go out in various less-then-perfect environments in the real world and then try to mic an ACOUSTIC instrument at distances that would allow you to videotape the instrument w/o seeing the mic...

Don't waste your $$$ on an omni. It will see very little use in the real world of shooting video.

There are only 2 omnis which see frequent use... a lav, because it can be put really close to the mouth (ON the person)... and an ENG stickmic like the RE50, because it's SO insensitive that it hears a tiny bubble of sound and the reporter holds it RIGHT to his mouth and then RIGHT to the other people's mouths... as you can see on ANY news report. So unless you want the mic to be a major feature of all your shots... or you can hide it ON the person (as in lav) then the omni will not get used.

Music can benefit from the acoustics of a space... dialog will usually be overcome by room acoustics... do NOT get the OMNI... I don't make this stuff up... The Schoeps CMC6 MK41 is the most popular dialog mic in the world... it's a hyper... do NOT get an omni... if you think you can boom with an omni you are going to be sadly mistaken with the $$$ you spend.

If you want to boom 2 or 3 people with one mic and they are very close to each other then you can go to cardioid... that still gives you a controlled pattern, but wider... and the rear lobe of the mic mostly ignores what is behind it... which still gives you some control over the acoustic space, and the ability to dial out some unwanted sounds... but by and far the practice is to use more mics with more control rather then one mic to chance it all. On this level the cardioid is an acceptable work-around to mic more people, as long as they are all still close to that mic.

If you have distances that will introduce phasing problems then phasing problems will be the least of your problems... mics need to be AT THE MOST 5' away from mouths... and they should be as close as possible... 2-3' is usually good.

Thank you! I thought getting omni's sounded really fishy, because I'd done a lot of endless search options on dvxuser.com before even presenting my query, and all I got were reccomendations on hyper mic's. I believe with a matched pair of hyper oktavas that is within my budget and would serve my interior sound needs. I have a shotgun mic for exterior :) Again, thank you sir!

[timapter]

yeah, omni's? what the heck? :)

just to clarify something here:

the concept of a "matched pair" is largely irrelevant to a location film/tv sound recordist unless you are aiming to record truly pristine stereo ambiences or something like that.

i must say, I've never found myself saying "damn! needed a matched pair!", and it has especially not affected me when recording, say, two actors with two oktava's. I will go out on a limb here and say -we dont need that kind of accuracy-. although its nice to have a matched pair, if a matched pair was any decent amount more expensive than two singles, i'd take the singles.



ps - dude, no, you DONT need two hyper's, you need a boom. If you want to get fancy and do more complicated scenes with more actors, or intricate movement, then two mic's is just very handy.

[Yardsale]

yeah, omni's? what the heck? :)

just to clarify something here:

the concept of a "matched pair" is largely irrelevant to a location film/tv sound recordist unless you are aiming to record truly pristine stereo ambiences or something like that.

i must say, I've never found myself saying "damn! needed a matched pair!", and it has especially not affected me when recording, say, two actors with two oktava's. I will go out on a limb here and say -we dont need that kind of accuracy-. although its nice to have a matched pair, if a matched pair was any decent amount more expensive than two singles, i'd take the singles.



ps - dude, no, you DONT need two hyper's, you need a boom. If you want to get fancy and do more complicated scenes with more actors, or intricate movement, then two mic's is just very handy.
Yeah I'm starting to assess my needs and it looks like I just need one hyper on a boom to get all the interior scenes done. Easy on the pocketbook and thanks for your opinion on matched mics. I can just pick up another if my needs change.

[Droog]

If you can afford the extra I would also say go for it. Get your self a stereo bar for the times when you need to do some stereo recording. Not that you will ever have time during a shoot or manage to get anyone quite, but if you are in the least intersted in doing ambiance recording having a stereo solution is quite nice. People might scoff at the idea having two 012's, but I would imagine you are like me and find yourself doing all kinds of different gigs and I can almost guarantee you will use both at some point, may not be critical but may be very handy.

Also, what's up with recomending Omni's? I have never used Omni's outside of a studio. Whats next? Figure 8 so you can accurately capture the jet that is flying over the talents head?

Kind of off topic, but I saw the boom op dip on Mythbusters last night and it appeared to be a Scheops. The thing is, they were in a public swimming pool. Interesting choice I thought, but the sound was good, though I am sure wireless was happening too. I would have reached for a shotgun first.

[tallrd]

Yikes. I didn't realize that I didn't state "lav" in my original post, as that's what my intended recommendation was. My initial response post has been edited to reflect this.

As for phasing and if it effects your miking when using multiple miks, I also encourage you to do your own research. Shure is a good source for info. Phasing is a factor with multiple unidirectional mics picking up the same sound source. This is a fact.

**In no way do I recommend an omni mic for boom miking. An omni-boom mic is agreeably far-from-ideal in a boom situation, and I did not/do not/will not endorse an omni boom mic for this.**

[Yardsale]

Yikes. I didn't realize that I didn't state "lav" in my original post, as that's what my intended recommendation was. My initial response post has been edited to reflect this.

As for phasing and if it effects your miking when using multiple miks, I also encourage you to do your own research. Shure is a good source for info. Phasing is a factor with multiple unidirectional mics picking up the same sound source. This is a fact.

**In no way do I recommend an omni mic for boom miking. An omni-boom mic is agreeably far-from-ideal in a boom situation, and I did not/do not/will not endorse an omni boom mic for this.**
ok that is making much more sense :happy:

[ScoobySounds]

yeah, omni's? what the heck? :)

just to clarify something here:

the concept of a "matched pair" is largely irrelevant to a location film/tv sound recordist unless you are aiming to record truly pristine stereo ambiences or something like that.

i must say, I've never found myself saying "damn! needed a matched pair!", and it has especially not affected me when recording, say, two actors with two oktava's. I will go out on a limb here and say -we dont need that kind of accuracy-. although its nice to have a matched pair, if a matched pair was any decent amount more expensive than two singles, i'd take the singles.



ps - dude, no, you DONT need two hyper's, you need a boom. If you want to get fancy and do more complicated scenes with more actors, or intricate movement, then two mic's is just very handy.

practically speaking, this is how i work aswell, its not too hard to match the soud of two different mics, thats why you can use lavs in conjuction with shotguns/hypers for a scene, and use ambience and a little eq to get them sounding natural together. a matched pair is good for music and, like time says, if you want to be real picky with your atmoses etc, but generally its not a NEED.

icedentally, the term 'matched pair' means factory matched, ie. they were cosecutively made in the production line, so you'd have to buy them matched at the same time.

you can mostly get away with one mic on a boom, and using lav or planted mics for the far away lines, that are out of boom-swinging distance.

[pastywhiteboy]

Kind of off topic, but I saw the boom op dip on Mythbusters last night and it appeared to be a Scheops. The thing is, they were in a public swimming pool. Interesting choice I thought, but the sound was good, though I am sure wireless was happening too. I would have reached for a shotgun first.

Swimming pool = very reflective environment... shotgun would actually probably not be the best option.

-pasty

[timapter]

yeah, this matched thing is a load of poo. You can still record stereo with two unmatched oktava's. Its not like the world will explode...

Im not saying there's no point for matched pairs,(there sure is), but outside of a music studio lets be downright honest here and be clear that you CAN in fact record stereo with unmatched mics.

I also watch Mythbusters alot, and have seen primarily small form mics (i guess schoeps) on the booms for interiors, and shotguns of some kind WITH WIRELESS for exteriors. I'd be willing to bet that wireless lavs are the primary audio source, with the shotguns covering effects.

[MattinSTL]

All those shows use a mix of wireless, hypers, and guns. That's my favorite part of those shows... I'd never miss an episode if they shot everything wide... so that the crew was always in the shots.

There's a geico or progressive car insurance commercial with Jeffrey Tambor (dad from Arrested Development) and they're showing clips of goofy stuff... in one shot he's got the two halves of his hair/head shampoo'ed up and he reaches up and brings down the mic to say "I'm not tingling" or something like that... and I paused it to see that it's a cheap pole, K-SSM mount, and Schoeps with Schoeps foam windscreen... I almost thought it was an Oktava.

Oh and matched pairs? No you don't need them... not even remotely. I did a stereo recording with two totally different mics just to prove a point to a friend of mine... and he didn't even know which mic was which... and this was an Oktava in one channel and a Rode NTK in the other... pretty darn far from matched pairs. Don't sweat that stuff.

Really I think that MOST people are way overthinking audio... at least in these forums... I mean you do need to do things the right way... so I'm all for the discussion, but they often head off in isoteric directions where the concerns aren't warranted by the real world results.

If you got a wireless lav, a hyper, and a shotgun... you're almost covered. Now as the scope of your projects gets more and more complex you just need to add more of those items and a mixer to mix them... and any gear to get mics where they need to be... meaning CLOSE... and that's when it starts to seem like it's getting complicated... but really it's not. It's still just controlling the same initial building blocks.

[timapter]

hear hear, and it all comes back to Oleg rocking the planet with an ME66 while I might suck with a CS-3e...

A guy actually said to me the other day "Dude, forget all this hectic advice, just work hard with what you have".

This is why I've wondered a bit lately whether mic advice isnt actually destructive - I see a LOT of value in buying low and working your way up because by the time you have a good kit, you also have the experience to use it right. While financially, I regret buying cheap wireless when I started, now a days, I really appreciate how good a quality system is, and why I like it.

Tim