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View Full Version : Underexposure. Low light. Blacks



zakforrest
07-03-2006, 09:38 AM
At first I was sad to see the lack of shadow detail in Superman Returns. Even though it is not shot with the Red camera, I figured the Genesis might be a fun comparison for me in the theaters while I wait for my red camera to arrive. Then a friend who read an article told me that Newton Sigel did tests with the Genesis, and found that there was only a 1 stop difference in the range, and he commended its performance in the blacks. So he basically carried on as if the Genesis was 35mm film, only taking into consideration the highlights. I guess the final product up on screen, which at first disapointed me, has the blacks CRUSHED to hell... Anyway, does anyone know so far, based on whatever stats we have been given, know a ballpark of how the Red One will perform in the UNDEREXPOSURE/LOW LIGHT?

I am going to be using my Red camera to shoot 2/3 of a feature (the first third was already shot on 35mm), shot entirely with natural light, with lots of low light situations. I have shot several scenes of the film on 35mm already, all entirely underexposed, and it looks great. I am wondering if I will be able to use the Red One in the same manner as I have been using my Arri BL3 with Zeiss Superspeeds at T 1.3, all the way open, with the light being around f1.0 most of the time, shot on 5229 Vision2 Expression 500T.

I hope some of the cinematographers shooting tests with the bread box will shoot some things in natural light, underexposed!

It will be interesting to see what RED images look like underexposed, and then brightened up in post (or perhaps left alone!), compared to what I have already done with film in the same manner.

I know cinematographer Harris Savides has used the Viper many times already and also shot the new David Fincher film with the Viper. Savides underexposes film to hell and back, creating such a thin and delicate negative which is so gorgeous because it rides the edge so close. It seems like if he took one more small step with his work the image would just fall apart, but right there at that fine line, where its such a delicate balance of underexposure, it becomes incredibly beautiful. I am interested in seeing what Harris Savides does with the Viper in the new Fincher film, because he wont be able to do his usual chemical tricks he does with underexposed film. I wonder if he will underexpose the Viper and bring it up in post, or if he will just use an entirely new approach to digital cinematography.

Savides, a great inspiration for me, always uses movie lights. In my film I am using entirely natural light. I pray the Red camera will let me do what I have already been doing for years with 35mm (and getting amazing results).
So, any speculations or thoughts? I don't know what the "65db" on the website translates into. And yes, I am aware that even if a camera has the same range as film, the 5229 stock I am shooting on currently DOES have a serious look to its own, one that might be extremely hard to reproduce. But then again, maybe not, maybe in post its not a problem to try and match it up. Either way, matching the softness of the 5229 is not so much a concern with me, if the camera has a different look than the 5229, but still has great performance in underexposure/low light, I will be extremely happy with my Red One....


(this was crossposted in DVinfo.. if that is not allowed or something let me know, this is my first post to both forums.... =]

Gibby
07-03-2006, 10:39 AM
I definately share your desire for good low light performance from RED. I'm sure they're aware of that and will maximize the sensor capilities for it's best possible performance in that area. Many of the genres of production I do are in natural light - travel, sports, documentaries, stock footage, nature, and on and on.

No matter what flavor of HD I shoot, I intentionally under-expose the footage slightly. It's much better in post, and there is no good way to salvage over-exposed HD footage.

Gibby
RED camera #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com

MikeCurtis
07-03-2006, 03:02 PM
Yeah, I second Steve's thing about underexposing. You can always boost and usually get some detail back from the blacks with most decent HD, but once highlights are gone, they are GONE, clipped, nonexistent, Just Not There. So underexposing is the side to err on.

MikeCurtis
07-03-2006, 03:03 PM
OH, duh, forgot to say what I meant to - as for crushed blacks in Superman, I wouldn't take that as a be-all statement about the capabilities of the camera - who knows what decisions were made during color grading, nor whether the projection environment was optimal in your theater - theaters are infamous for turning the bulb down on the projector in order to extend the life of the expensive bulb. Yeah, seriously - no kidding...


-mike

Gibby
07-03-2006, 03:33 PM
Also, members of the RED development team have specifically stated that the large CMOS sensor will gather light very effectively (which large sensors tend to do). Low-light shooting should be one of the strengths of the camera.

Gibby
RED camera #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com

donatello
07-03-2006, 04:24 PM
there's low light performance and then there is under- exposure = IMO 2 different items ...

some persons will under-expose shooting ASA 50 film with a F8 reading and decide to under-expose it 1-2 stops = creative choice ... other may over expose it 1-2 stops again creative choice ......... and there is low light performance for a ASA 50 film stock which is not going to be the same low light performance of a ASA 500 stock ..

acoreasc
07-04-2006, 01:59 PM
hopefully the extended latitude will enable us to get that lovely fall-off of exposure that DPs like Savvides get in films like The Game, Last Days, etc. At least, that is my hope.

Proteus
07-04-2006, 04:19 PM
I don't know what the "65db" on the website translates into

S/N db is just signal to noise ratio in decibels, or clean image vs grain ratio.
Just remember that for every 6 db you get 1 stop or a 2/1 ratio, or 1-bit , so for 65 db you get almost 11 stops of ratio or 2^11=2048 which means 2048 parts of pure image information with 1 part of grain. If this sounds like a recipe, it is! We heard that the chef is cooking something delicious with this... it's called "RED", do you want some?
Don't be patient, you should wait 'till it gets ...RED! :D

Jarred Land
07-05-2006, 08:25 PM
for every 6 db you get 1 stop or a 2/1 ratio, or 1-bit , so for 65 db you get almost 11 stops of ratio or 2^11=2048 which means 2048 parts of pure image information with 1 part of grain

my head hurts now thanks :)