BIG PROBLEM - HVX IMAGE SHIFT - anyone else?

[palmerman]

At the following link... you can see an IMAGE SHIFT that is happening in camera...
http://palmer-inc.com/camera_problem_palmerQT.mov
Anyone else experience this. This is happening quite often and is a perfect anomaly
Set up is... 720 24PN.
Have Able Cine looking into it with Panny... but does anyone have any advice!

[Tibby]

Yikes!!!

[TedRR]

Palmerman, I think it's because you have image stabilization on. Never use that unless you are handheld.

[palmerman]

PANNY's first response....
Looks like a dropped frame.
What are your exact procedures.
What are the settings in the camera.
How did you capture the footage, you know the whole nine yards

[Ursa]

I have EXACTLY the same problem. Today I filmed for 1 hour straight, and 2 times (I think) I saw the picture bump in this exact same manner. Really annoyed me! And the OIS is not even very good... Grrr... Oh well can't have it all. I filmed in 576P PAL (to DV-tape).

I've seen it happen earlier too when filming for an extended period.

[Cees Mutsaers]

can't see anything wrong with the footage !!!!!

[KOVAROVA]

i have seen this happen in other cameras with the image stabilization on while the cam is on a tripod. did you have the image stabilization on?

[palmerman]

CEES - watch footage again. The image Jumps to the LEFT of Screen that back to center. THIS IS A LOCKED OFF PIECE OF FOOTAGE. I did not touch the camera.

[palmerman]

KOVAROVA - I think it was on for that interview. I usually leave it on all the time. I will try to recreate problem with it off. (hope it doesn't happen) THANK for this advice. Palmer.

[KOVAROVA]

did you ever find out what was in his ear? :grin:

[David Jimerson]

OIS + tripod = bad news. If you think that bump was bad, try panning.

[Jan_Crittenden]

And what was your response? I looked at the footage and those are my questions. They are not unreasonable, but exploratory. Trying to find out the conditions of the situation.

thanks,

Jan



PANNY's first response....
Looks like a dropped frame.
What are your exact procedures.
What are the settings in the camera.
How did you capture the footage, you know the whole nine yards

[Barth Gimble]

did you ever find out what was in his ear? :grin:

.....I had a hard time resisting making that joke yesterday... glad someone has the same twisted humor as me.

[palmerman]

Panny came back today saying TURN OFF OIS when on Sticks.
Thanks for all your help everyone. He is still digging in that ear. I will send report on findings!

[Sunstream]

I have had the same exact issue I freaked out at first, but after turning Image Stabalization OFF it hasnt given me a problem. Of course that begs the question - whats the use of IS if you cant use it?

[TimurCivan]

cut out the frames and make two or three replacement frame with Winmorph.

or just doublke up the last frames before the jump and the two immediatly after. sort of like a Video "patch" it.

or cut up the frames that did jump, and reposition them in place as a still images. and just photoshop the edges. to match the rest of the footage.

[cinebuddy]

OIS. I had the same thing, thought my Tripod was the issue then the camera, turned it off and no problems since.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I've had thes problems. The OIS on the HVX has issues. This NEVER happened to me with my DVX-100.

[THoff]

That's quite a jump -- can the OIS in the HVX-200 really compensate for that much movement (assuming it detects that much movement)?

[Justin Reade]

That's pretty scary. I mean, I guess Panasonic could claim that it is logically redunant to have OIS enabled when you have the camera physically mounted on a tripod, but nonetheless. That's the glory of this website, really. Finding all these quirks, discussing them, and then placing this into the universal storage bank of information, so that shooting with the camera becomes seamless and easy. Incidentally, I have had OIS enabled in tripod situations and not seen this error, but just the same -- it's very useful to know...

Justin.

[KOVAROVA]

this also happens with sony cameras. i had the same thing happen while shooting on a PD150.

[AshG]

I find this odd because the OIS is very poor on the HVX... interesting...



ash =o)

[Milezee]

I think the OIS is pretty good for what it is.
Hand hold and zoom in on something distant, switch the OIS on and off and you can clearly see the difference.
Don't expent so much from an OIS, its not a steadycam replacement or anything!
Oh and of course, don't use it on a tripod.

[palmerman]

A Huge thanks to everyone for getting involved on this issue. Palmerman.
PS. Still dont know what was in his ear!

[AshG]

Compared to the other cameras in the class the HVX is a distant last in the OIS.....




ash =o)

[icicle22]

I have to agree with Ash. Having owned the HVX200 the image stabilization is barely passable to me. When compared to shooting using my old XL2 and manual lens with no OIS available, the HVX still looks shakier. Not saying it doesn't help but it really is weaker than other cameras at this price point.

Which furthers makes that funky leap in the footage more odd.......

[TedRR]

[quote=icicle22]When compared to shooting using my old XL2 and manual lens with no OIS available quote]

Sounds like you are missing something there then.
I can't say it's better then other cameras, but worse then "No OIS" ???

I did some shooting while skating backwards holding the camera below my knees with and without the OIS and it definately was better WITH OIS. Maybe yours is broken???

[AshG]

OIS helps but it is a marginal improvement at best, especially with the lens long... maybe a compromise to let more light in as the HVX loves light =o)




ash =o)

[Ursa]

Today I filmed a huge gig, and some really horrendous stuff happened. I'm just saying, what was seen in this clip is really nothing compared to what I experienced today. I will post clips as soon as I've started cutting the stuff. This image abnormality seemed to occur about every 5th minute. Looks like the IS "hangs" and then "releases" because there often comes two abnormalities in a row.

And forget about it's the tripod's fault. I have it happening all the time when handheld too.

And IS is very nice to have when shooting from a tripod. Like today, people were moving around the tripod, so the ground was unstable. If I hadn't used IS, the video picture would be really jumpy (now it only jumps every 5th minute, like previously noted :)).

But all in all, it's not a huge problem. Nothing's perfect, no matter how much we want it to.

[THoff]

Sorry, periodic jumping of the image to the extent seen in the original clip (or worse, as in your case) is not acceptable and should not be written off as normal. There are plenty of things people film where no second takes or reshoots are possible.

If this happens routinely, Panasonic needs to investigate and fix this problem.

[deadmike]

i just did a shoot about 20 minutes ago where i had an image jump on a panning tripod shot a couple times in a row. this also happened a couple of days ago and i ended up fixing it by deleting 2 frames. today i didn't know if it would help or not but i turned off the ois and it was smooth as butter. then i saw this thread. the movie i'm working on right now is almost all fig rig with a few tripod shots. should i have the ois off for fig rig stuff as well?

[THoff]

I won't have my HVX200 until next week so I don't know if this is a common problem. The only advice I can give you would be to put the setup you will be using through its paces BEFORE the shoot so you can see if it is affected, and so that you can have confidence in your gear.

[NZHDTV]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and P2 but have had the same problem with jolts in my shots. Will this be a firmware update required?
:dankk2:

[NZHDTV]

This is only happening in 576i 25p and while panning on moving subjects.
Other than that it is the best digital format I've worked with.
Having shot many years on XL1's, Pd150/70's and owned a DVX100a.
Looking forward to getting the bugs out.

[hvx_germanboy]

Hey Ursa,

in which mode did you shoot-576i?
Would be interesting to know if it occurs only when you shoot dv.
I mostly shot dvcpro 50 and...knock knock knock...havent seen any problems like that on the footage..would make me crazy, i think thats no way ok in a way ursa!

[Richard Sutcliffe]

Hey DeadMike,

I shot about 30mins of footage this weekend with the HVX on a fig rig, OIS was on. I've played it back and haven't seen any jumping around. However, I have noticed jumps previously when the camera has been panning on the tripod (never had the jump whilst static). I'd just also like to say that I have experienced similar issues with Sony cameras, its a inherent design issue I believe and it wont happen if you turn of the OIS.

[Richard Sutcliffe]

NZHDTV,

This is not a format issue. AFAIK its the optical image stabiliser 'correcting' motion. Its all about prisms in suspension or somesuch and so don't expect any updates to fix it. OIS is working the way its supposed to but you aren't using it properly.

Maybe someone with a better knowledge of OIS can confirm this?

[Ursa]

I've seen the problem in both 576i and 576P. The clip in the first post of this thread was shot in 720P, so I guess the problem is all over the line... I'll try shooting some dvcpro50 too.

[SPZ]

I had this problem with the dvx100a. The HVX has it too. Turning OIS off does solve the problem.

[rgbuser]

The shift that has been noticed with image stabilization on but camera static is well-known in stills photography. How noticeable it is depends on how the stabilization works and what the 'rest' position of the shift optics is. One of member noticed that the effect occurred every 5 minutes or so. The default power-off time for the camera is, wait for it, 5 mins. That is not a coincidence. Seems to me that the shift is caused by the cage holding the stabilizing elements coming to a rest - it's that clunking sound we know but don't particularly love. Anyway, turning off OIS when you don't need it saves battery juice - more than you might think. I haven't quantified it, but I can do longer time-lapse sequences with it off than on.

[THoff]

One of member noticed that the effect occurred every 5 minutes or so. The default power-off time for the camera is, wait for it, 5 mins.
Interesting theory, but I don't think that is the reason for the jump -- the OP was recording at the time, so there is no reason for the OIS or anything else to turn off.

[PaPa]

i only ever had that problem with my agdvc7, as it had electronic image stabalization, which is common in all electronic stabalization devices. As it moves based on shake from the footage and not the camera itself, but not sure why it would do that.

[gregcotten]

cut out the frames and make two or three replacement frame with Winmorph.

or just doublke up the last frames before the jump and the two immediatly after. sort of like a Video "patch" it.

or cut up the frames that did jump, and reposition them in place as a still images. and just photoshop the edges. to match the rest of the footage.

Sounds like a hack-job at best. I guess the answer is to not shoot with Optical Image Stabilization while on a tripod.

[Anders Holck]

Just a few notes.
I find that the OIS on the DVX100B is performing much better than on the HVX-200e.
I do A LOT of hand held stuff, and the OIS in the DVX has a much smoother lock-on / lock-off than the HVX.
If I frame a static image with the HVX and do a small pan to a static, there is always a nasty overshoot at the end when the floating element realigns. This is not the case with the DVX.

My old PD150 had a tendency to do the wacky image shocks when a transmitting mobile phone was in the proximity. I tink its the coiles controlling the floating element that will get activated by the EMR.

[THoff]

I also recall talk a year or two ago of some video cameras that are susceptible to interference from common FMS radios (which can be found on many sets).

It seems the energy output by the radios would wreak havok with the OIS system.

[vidled]

And IS is very nice to have when shooting from a tripod. Like today, people were moving around the tripod, so the ground was unstable. If I hadn't used IS, the video picture would be really jumpy...

EXCELLENT point!
The notion that OIS is always "BAD" for tripod use is absurd; and needs QUALIFYING:

OIS with camera on tripod whilst panning/tilting: bad.
OIS with LOCKED DOWN camera on tripod: can be good.

Now of course, this is assuming the OIS is working properly. The OIS should react on cam movement, NOT on subject movement.

[icicle22]

[quote=icicle22]When compared to shooting using my old XL2 and manual lens with no OIS available quote]

Sounds like you are missing something there then.
I can't say it's better then other cameras, but worse then "No OIS" ???

I did some shooting while skating backwards holding the camera below my knees with and without the OIS and it definately was better WITH OIS. Maybe yours is broken???

Sorry....with the weight of the XL2 and lens, plus the shoulder mount style I found more stabile images with no OIS than with the HVX200 + OIS. In short the image stabilzation needs to be stronger to compensate for the shape and size of the HVX200. It is hard to hold it stable handheld the way it is.

[Rambos]

I had the same problem, but while using it handheld. So i turned it off and all was well, but it kind of defeats the purpose if you can't even you use it handheld.

[Ursa]

This is taken from a concert I did earlier this summer. The OIS horribly jumps TWICE before it settles again. This happened about every 5th minute, and most often after a rack zoom.

www.neomedia.no/video/hvx200ois.wmv

it happens in the last second of this 3-second clip. Sorry for the white censor strip.

And just to be really pessimistic: forget shooting at maximum tele with the OIS disabled. Camera shakes with the merest touch of a human hand.

[AshG]

I have had this start to happen as well... all on handheld footage... nothing that is normal or that follows a pattern and certainly rare but there IS something funky here not related to tripod use.


ash =o)


PS I second that the XL2 with OIS off is more steady than the HVX with OIS on

[Jan_Crittenden]

HI,

If you are having problems with the OIS and it is not mounted on a tripod, because this is not a good match, but it is doing odd things on handheld footage. then make a copy of your footage, like a DV tape of it and send it and the camera to the Panasonic service center. I should not do that.

Best,

Jan