Questions about the Hero Fest

[Matthew B. Moore]

I've watched several of these and have been entertained for the most part. There has been a lot of good "campy" stuff (by good I mean funny to the point where it works) and some really cool back stories but...not enough ass whoppin'.

Now, I don't know why this is, but there seems to be an awful lot of focus on the heroes and not a whole lot on the super.

I know what you are saying, "If you want more super to the hero, make your own damn film." I know, I know. We would have done one, but time just wasn't letting us play that way.

I guess, going in I was hoping for some more action. Maybe it is just too damn hard to get all of that into 6 minutes.

This is not a slam on any one. It's just some thing I noticed and my curiosity was peaked. What I'm wondering is why certain roads were chosen and others weren't?
More a discussion than a debate.

[Blaine]

I will agree with you on the action statement, Matthew, but what I'm going to take from this particular "fest" is that there were at least three entries that made me think. There's been a lot of discussion about "you should have done this" or "you should have done that" and I'm to blame in this, too, but at the top of this category, I saw two, perhaps three movies that were as good as any in any of the DVXUser fests.

It was great to see people I know (on the boards) who are "getting their feet wet." Overall, I'm pleased with what I've seen in HeroFest. I'm only disappointed that so many found so many excuses to drop out.

HorrorFest is on the way. I'm not in. (officially) But if I get an entry together I'll be just as excited as everyone else entering. Horror is, after all, the ground floor of indie filmmaking.

For me, several things are going to have to come together for me to enter HorrorFest, not the least of which is coming up with a story I can tell in 5-6 minutes. I have no problem writing 100-110 pages but tell it in 6 pages, well, that takes a special talent.

And that is a major beef I have about people complaining about character development in 6 pages. Short stories are all about the setup and payoff, not character development. The short feature is analogous to the short story. Give me an engaging story in 6 minutes and I can forgive a little lack of character development. If I get it, that's just icing on the cake.

In HeroFest, I got it on Cache, and to some degree in Bone Hand.

There was a lot more comedic entries than I expected but that's okay. DahopaFilms' Bucketman was as entertaining as anything I could have hoped for.

Every fest develops its own personality. I have to respectfully disagree with anyone who feels that the talent in HeroFest was lacking. In some cases, it may not have been what I was expecting but I saw several very talented entries. I also saw several entries that I am sure were "cut to size" and need to be seen in their full length version to appreciate. The only problem with that is that in this particular venue, you can take "potential" (their full length version) into account. I also saw a couple of entries by members who had also entered in SciFest that were remarkable improve.

I believe that HorrorFest will be incredible. There will be entries that are not up to snuff. There will also be entries that are from "first timers" and will be a launching pad for better films in the future.

There will be "Similo" threads, or as in HeroFest, "Bone Hand" threads, where very good films will go through excruciating scrutiny. What would really be great would be to see less defensiveness and more meaningful interaction.

ZombieFest...unfortunately I have only seen a few of the entries. Of those, HorseFilms, John_Hudson, Jack Daniel Stanley, disjecta, Curugon, and Rikki Rocket, were good and I enjoyed them. I would love to seem more if anyone has them downloaded or can point me to a website.

SciFest...I watched every single one. Commented on most. A lot of good stuff...some not so good. BUT a lot of heart and soul was put into this contest.

HeroFest...not as many entries but still some gems. Perhaps the best short I have ever seen was in HeroFest and a couple of others were right up there with the best that DVXUsedr has to offer.

HorrorFest...how can this not be the BEST?!!?

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

for me i had to keep a watchful eye on the amount of time I could use for fights
beacuse while the outcome of the fight always effects the story its rare when the content of the fight has a lot to do with the story

... an example where the content of the fight has to do with the story would of course be Rocky ... where the protag has to dig deep to some inner fuel station of courage and preserverance that we've seen him struggle with for ninety minutes ... but again, most of the time while the outcome of the fight effects the story there's not much story content in the fight.

so for me I had to stay focused on the plot poing reveal for each fight - the first one in Bone Hand - show the power in action, the second one SPOILER ALERT - get the girl shot.

So then the fight scenes became about economy so I wouldn't have to rush the relationship scenes in the 6 minutes.

[spidey]

I been dissappointed with the overall in the fest. less people and stories that either colide with simularities or poorly executed. there is one movie I really enjoyed because it dark theme but it's character development, camera movement, well designed lighting and lack of words summed up everything. I speak of Cache. A good film quiet and powerful. TGTN by conrad is weird but it did what it was suppose to do and I liked that film as well. and bone hand is shot very well.

BUT everything else is like bad 48 hour film projects. and the thing is people have monthes to make these movies and to be on par with movies that are made in 48 hours is kinda sad or rediculous.

I dunno I know their are learniers here but I want more.

come on, people step it up.

At least on the next one. I know I'm in.

[Norm Sanders]

Golly, Spidey, sorry we couldn't deliver for you and that ONCE A HERO is only on par with a 48 hour film project.

I'll try to either really step it up just for you in the next contest, or bag it all together.

Sound good, Pumpkin?

[highland_watcher]

I been dissappointed with the overall in the fest. less people and stories that either colide with simularities or poorly executed. there is one movie I really enjoyed because it dark theme but it's character development, camera movement, well designed lighting and lack of words summed up everything. I speak of Cache. A good film quiet and powerful. TGTN by conrad is weird but it did what it was suppose to do and I liked that film as well. and bone hand is shot very well.

BUT everything else is like bad 48 hour film projects. and the thing is people have monthes to make these movies and to be on par with movies that are made in 48 hours is kinda sad or rediculous.

I dunno I know their are learniers here but I want more.

come on, people step it up.

At least on the next one. I know I'm in.

Let's see, we got our DVX in the fist week of MAY. There went four months of planning because we didn't even know if we could enter the fest. Our lead actor could only shoot on ONE weekend so we had to rush to plan on friday and shoot saturday and sunday to get what we had. Not complaining, I love our end product, but to expect so much from people is only going to let you down.

When I first started watching these films, I was really technical about what was going on. Then I watched them again later for entertainment and was so entertained that I nearly cried. "DIAPER BOY!" comes to mind. So to get on people because you expected more isn't, in my opinion, fair to what they HAVE accomplished.

I am also very forgetfull, can you tell me what you entered spidey? I can't remember.

And for Horrorfest, Aftershock Studios is bringing it for SURE!!!
:costumed-smiley-047

[Daniel Skubal]

Pretty harsh spidey. Lots of work went into these films and to tear them down like that by generalizing all of them into two categories is a bit crappy.

[spidey]

actually envision I like your movie besides for the audio thing. good shots and cool locations. but im saying the general overall view of the film have be less than on par. we should be expecting for new talent and real amazement from film makers. Because we are all film makers and lovers. I dont like sitting through the movies you cant even stand. like some movie were not even falling in place. it seems the tougher critized work goes towards the seasoned guys and the wow this is great goes to the guy who could have done better in some cases. I like 6 films in this competition but I was hoping for more. There should be more to be expected. We should be see great stuff.

But I do apologize i know some people are not as diverse in certian areas which could have crippled them.

but movies like one man's epic? wheres the point?

Bucketman is great
JUL is great
Once Hero Great
Bone Hand Great
TGTN Great
Cache Great!

I just find it difficult to see some work that had alot of time and fall short.

I mean look all the hard work JDS put in on sfx CC story and action then you have other which silly out comes or driving sterotypes with homosexual theme for no reason.

I just want fairness but qualtiy effort and I miss not seeing some works from previous competitons because they were stumped in the scifi fest do to drama issues.

This what I do for a living I guess thats why I get so irritated by it. Sorry to those I may offend as my friends.

Highland, you dont know me so dont bug me.

DJ, Im harsh because I say alot things other dont say when they know it. While at the office or at the school we teach at we show these films to the students and they wonder how or why that was there. we use alot our films from these fest a tools in teaching. the what to do ands and not to dos of film making. but they wonder sometimes why prasie is given to projects while other are over looked. I fear some of the best movies here can be overlooked sometimes.

I just want these fest to be continuing places for new talent and art. But this time I feel like some of that was missing this time.

but like I said I like some but there are many that are just......

[J.R. Hudson]

Golly, Spidey, sorry we couldn't deliver for you and that ONCE A HERO is only on par with a 48 hour film project.

I'll try to either really step it up just for you in the next contest, or bag it all together.

Sound good, Pumpkin?

Not just you Norm but everyone in here that is starting to get emotional:

I have alway's applauded Spidey's honesty in these forum's. It isn't personal Norm. Jeremy is one of the very few persons in here that will 'say it'' and say it without being a d*ck.

There is no need to question Jeremy's filmmaking talent (Check SCIFEST: He can shoot circles around most of us) and his calling 'For More' is a challenge for all of us.

I agree with everything (more or less) Jeremy has stated in these thread's about Herofest.

It is pretty underwhelming this go-around.

[Kholi]

I'm with Spidey

I couldn't make it for Hero_fest, wish I could have. Horror-fest is definitely on.

I'm now afraid of giving anymore critiques because I got PMs last time I did from a lot of people telling me that it was basically wrong and that I should be back patting.

But, at least I can second someone else's motion, who's obvious got the right to speak his mind.

[Matthew B. Moore]

for me i had to keep a watchful eye on the amount of time I could use for fights
beacuse while the outcome of the fight always effects the story its rare when the content of the fight has a lot to do with the story

... an example where the content of the fight has to do with the story would of course be Rocky ... where the protag has to dig deep to some inner fuel station of courage and preserverance that we've seen him struggle with for ninety minutes ... but again, most of the time while the outcome of the fight effects the story there's not much story content in the fight.

so for me I had to stay focused on the plot poing reveal for each fight - the first one in Bone Hand - show the power in action, the second one SPOILER ALERT - get the girl shot.

So then the fight scenes became about economy so I wouldn't have to rush the relationship scenes in the 6 minutes.

JDS,
I thought your film had a good combination of all of the elements. It was heroish in that "Blade" or "Ghost Rider" kind of way. Though there are some areas of the film I would have done differently, you may have come the closest to capturing the "hero" term that I find to be so clouded in this comp.

The genre lends it self to be playful. Many chose that path. Some did well, others...eh. Ben, Jeremy, and myself had several discussions on what we would do for "hero fest" that would blow the doors off the festival. There was much debate. "You can't have a hero with out an origin, maybe that could be done in a 30 sec. opening montage." "Maybe we should start with a fight, tell some story and then go back into another fight." It bounced around for a while.

Is it the 6min.? "A creative filmmaker shouldn't worry about such limitations," some might say. "What the hell?" a writer may say. I don't think it is the time. That is a minor set back.

The best I could come up with would be the fact that we have had super-hero/hero stories just pounded into our heads for so long, that to begin to tackle the genre in 6 minutes seems impossible. More like fun, but I can see how the mind would get clouded trying to widdle the story down, once the hero blood was pumping.

I can only wonder from this point.

[D_and_G]

I kind of judge these films on two fronts. On one I judge them by the interior world of DVXuser - looking at their progression, and skills in handling basic filmmaking.

On the other front, I judge them by an international standard - compared to short films from Cannes, TIFF, Sundance, USC, etc...

Steve Martin once said that all success is preceded by a series of failures. In that sense these fests are invaluable. They give filmmakers the chance to sharpen their skills and get relevant feedback in a fellowship-like environment.
When they get into real money and competitive paradigms, then those opportunities are far less applicable, or are very expensive.

To be honest, I haven't seen any dvxuser film, in any dvxuser fest, that could compete internationally at the highest levels (yet). However, I would be surprised if that was the case. Those films cost much more, usually use working professionals, and are the final result of several short film attempts.

So, for the first front (the dvxuser environment), I didn't see more of a disparity of quality than in the other fests. Some films were stand outs, and some were obviously true neophytes, at the start of their journey. Technically many progressed, while story wise, there hasn't been the parallel development, IMHO.

There's an old saying "A rising tide raises all boats". Hopefully, with these fests that will be the outcome. It may take awhile, but I hope one day we'll see people actually use this as a spring board to enter international fests, and win some laurels. Maybe that's a grandiose idea, coming from a guy who hasn't entered shyte (too busy on a feature), but that's my three pence. :beer:



Cheers.


If you hold these films to an international standard, then I think it may be too much of a disincentive to the filmmakers ?

[Daniel Skubal]

Hmm, I suppose I see your point. I took your first comment the wrong way. My apologies.

[Kholi]

I kind of judge these films on two fronts. On one I judge them by the interior world of DVXuser - looking at their progression, and skills in handling basic filmmaking.

On the other front, I judge them by an international standard - compared to short films from Cannes, TIFF, Sundance, USC, etc...


Exactly. I think everyone should be striving for a Cannes or Sundance short film. It's hard to do such a thing without funds, though. S'understandable.

[J.R. Hudson]

I second this

For me I want to create a short film that looks 'Plucked' from a feature so-to-speak. I want Canne/Sundance/Toronto/Oscars .

Damn it; long way to go

[Matthew B. Moore]

Let's see, we got our DVX in the fist week of MAY. There went four months of planning because we didn't even know if we could enter the fest. Our lead actor could only shoot on ONE weekend so we had to rush to plan on friday and shoot saturday and sunday to get what we had. Not complaining, I love our end product, but to expect so much from people is only going to let you down.

When I first started watching these films, I was really technical about what was going on. Then I watched them again later for entertainment and was so entertained that I nearly cried. "DIAPER BOY!" comes to mind. So to get on people because you expected more isn't, in my opinion, fair to what they HAVE accomplished.

I am also very forgetfull, can you tell me what you entered spidey? I can't remember.

And for Horrorfest, Aftershock Studios is bringing it for SURE!!!
:costumed-smiley-047
Easy, there watcher of the Highlands. We had planned to shoot our short for the "Hero-fest", but luck, fate and a feature got in our way. The story was written, the costumes were designed and the characters were cast. We even had a location and were making the budget for crafty. There was much preproduction. Only with the saddest of faces and heavy hearts did we turn from the fest.
The inability to enter the fest doesn't mean that we aren't still are sr. memebers of DVXUSER with voting rights and opinions. I can't speak for the rest of my crew, but I simply call it as I see it. To do other wise is pointless. To sit there and lick some one's ass just because you don't want to hurt their feeling does them no good and at the same time gives you a nasty taste in the mouth.
This is a forum for dvxusers, those who wish to make the most of the DVX and it's wonderful ability to make things look so like film. With that said, this ain't no place for half stepping. Making film is a bitch. There are a million things that can go wrong in pre, durring and in post-production. No one cares what you went through to loose. No one cares if your film took a long time to make if it sucks. The only time people really notice is if you entertain them. You make them wonder. You drive them to think, or wow them. The time for being sweet to people even though they suck is grades 1-12. The time to learn to accept critisism is in college or post highschool. The time to step it up is when you compete in places like this, where those who have the money and the power may just get a small whisper of your name if your show just kicks all ass. It's not easy. Maybe Spidey wants more of every one. If you are a DVXuser, maybe you need to be more of a bad ass.

I'm not sure. Take it with a grain of salt. Some one called a work of mine "cheezy" the other day. He doesn't know what it is about, he simple stated what he thought. It kind of pissed me off (I've made 3 of them now and they are my whole life), but it made me think. I never dump any one's critisism unless it's completely stupid hippy dribble. That's why I'm a member. I am not a member of any other forum.

[D_and_G]

Not blowing smoke up your azz John, but with the right crew and story, I can see you getting into Sundance's/TIFF's/etc.. competition (at least). If you don't mind me sayin', you just have to use all that theory you've been studying. Indeed, there's a handful here who I feel have that potential.

After this feature I'm rewriting is done, I'm going to have to do a short. Too many financeers need a short to see a translatable skill. For me, that will be my litmus test - the international fest. See you on the slopes (Cannes) or on the nude beach (Cannes) - scratch that - the bar would be better:grin:






Cheers.

[Kholi]

Easy, there watcher of the Highlands. We had planned to shoot our short for the "Hero-fest", but luck, fate and a feature got in our way. The story was written, the costumes were designed and the characters were cast. We even had a location and were making the budget for crafty. There was much preproduction. Only with the saddest of faces and heavy hearts did we turn from the fest.
The inability to enter the fest doesn't mean that we aren't still are sr. memebers of DVXUSER with voting rights and opinions. I can't speak for the rest of my crew, but I simply call it as I see it. To do other wise is pointless. To sit there and lick some one's ass just because you don't want to hurt their feeling does them no good and at the same time gives you a nasty taste in the mouth.
This is a forum for dvxusers, those who wish to make the most of the DVX and it's wonderful ability to make things look so like film. With that said, this ain't no place for half stepping. Making film is a bitch. There are a million things that can go wrong in pre, durring and in post-production. No one cares what you went through to loose. No one cares if your film took a long time to make if it sucks. The only time people really notice is if you entertain them. You make them wonder. You drive them to think, or wow them. The time for being sweet to people even though they suck is grades 1-12. The time to learn to accept critisism is in college or post highschool. The time to step it up is when you compete in places like this, where those who have the money and the power may just get a small whisper of your name if your show just kicks all ass. It's not easy. Maybe Spidey wants more of every one. If you are a DVXuser, maybe you need to be more of a bad ass.

I'm not sure. Take it with a grain of salt. Some one called a work of mine "cheezy" the other day. He doesn't know what it is about, he simple stated what he thought. It kind of pissed me off (I've made 3 of them now and they are my whole life), but it made me think. I never dump any one's critisism unless it's completely stupid hippy dribble. That's why I'm a member. I am not a member of any other forum.

Dude, I got in trouble for saying the same exact thing during Sci-Fest. I think you might've said it a bit more softly than I, though.

Senior Members get all the privledges. :pout:

I agree, one-hundred percent. If you can't take the criticism, it's the wrong industry/business/profession/field/craft to be in. I am expectig to get ripped on my first short film, waiting for it actually. I expect to get ripped whenever I let someone read my writing, because I'm still uber-amateur... but I can take it. I would expect that anyone serious about being a "filmmaker" to be prepared for this, emotionally more so.

I get the buddy-buddy stuff, but no one is helping anyone by fondling each other oh-so-gently.

I try not to be negative, though, after I got Pmed to death last time. So, I just don't comment on the ones that ... well... "didn't do it for me.". The ones that I did comment on had something going for it.

So Matt and Spidey are in for Horror-fest yeah? Beware.

[spidey]

be afraid...... http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Q54JEAiNjmfPZM:lowlights-now.com/v-web/gallery/albums/photo-phunnies/gay_lion.jpg

[Larry Rutledge]

I totally understand all the sentiments that have been expressed here....however, I'd like to give my "side" of the story, if I may.

I entered this festival knowing that my skills were not up to International Feature Film levels, I also entered knowing that I would lack the experience with the equipment possessed by many of the people here on this site, I entered knowing that I didn't have financial backing to support an award winning cast/crew, I entered knowing that I had little chance of winning. So, why did I enter?

I entered because in past festivals I saw entries that were of varying levels of skill/expertise and with it I saw great feedback from those here who were "senior" in their ability. I saw opportunity to "put my hand to the plow" and actually create something instead of continually reading about how to "make something"; and I knew that I would get honest, complete feedback that would help me to learn and grow.

Spidey, you mention that you use these films in your classes to teach students what not to do....why can't you provide that same information here? Sure it would wonderful if everyone that entered made Oscar worthy films, but since they aren't and you are still watching...why not take your critical eye (of which I have seen great feedback/comments from you) and help us "less than stellar filmmakers" learn so the next festival will be better?

It is great to hear people applaud you, but I don't think anyone here enters for that goal exclusively. This is supposed to be (at least I thought it was) a site dedicated to the exchange of knowledge and expertise...why can't that extend to the festivals?

Along with that, I think the "international quality" films you all refer to had larger than $400 budgets and more experienced cast/crew and more than 3 months from concept to release.

Kholi - I don't know why you would be PM'd for negative comments....in my mind that is the whole point of this festival. I was anxiously awaiting the "negative comments", not because I like to hear negative things...but I knew it would be honest and fair.

Please understand, I'm not upset at the comments and ideas suggested in this thread. And I am in no way feeling defensive because my film was not one of the favorites. I just want to make sure everyone remembers this is supposed to be a place to grow and to help others grow.


Peace!

[Kholi]

Kholi - I don't know why you would be PM'd for negative comments....in my mind that is the whole point of this festival. I was anxiously awaiting the "negative comments", not because I like to hear negative things...but I knew it would be honest and fair.

Peace!
You're a good man, Larry. It's good to see you had another goal outside of winning, which was to learn and get some feedback on how you could improve yourself.

I did get PM'd by some people after I left comments in a thread. Although I think I was abit on the harsh side (I think?), I was just being honest about what I had seen and it was my first time really commenting on something.

At the same time, I got the chance to watch the same short in it's lengthened format and it was a completely different movie. Going on to say as well that the creator now has a big project coming up this summer and is improving every time I see something that he's created. That's truth.

[Matthew B. Moore]

Hell yes, we are down for the "Horror fest"
http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/04/14/imageLA10504132222.jpg
Be very afraid.

[Brandon Rice]

I wasn't disappointed by the films this time, but by the number of films... I know, I shouldn't be talking. I wasn't able to get one done either, but SO many people dropped out. Many more than sci-fest. I actually think the quality is VERY good overall. Many less HORRIBLE films than sci-fest.

And Kholi, I think there's a way to give negative critique. Its about being gracious with your opinion of someone's work and being able to give direction of HOW it could be better.

I think spidey's comment was out of line, but you did mention some films you did like. Look... I didn't like the film you did for sci-fest spidey. Does that mean I did not respect your talent, and think it was a darn fine effort? No. There is something to appreciate about someone who went and made a film (unlike myself) and that is something we can always be positive about.

[spidey]

well theres a few things I must say.

Before I had to stop a week before I had to shoot a feature I spent 1200 dollars on my short. I was pulling money I didn't have just so I could compete. CPU was shot with only 300 dollars, So I figure time money and effort times even more would be better but was halted. I was devistated.

I've critised harshly. I always do. I havent seen your yet larry. I'll give you feedback once I watch it. I enter this to compete and to show work. I assure I had everything ready I'm dying because I didnt get to enter. But you should enter each contest "in it to win it" mode; if not what are you showcasing?

[Kholi]

well theres a few things I must say.

Before I had to stop a week before I had to shoot a feature I spent 1200 dollars on my short. I was pulling money I didn't have just so I could compete. CPU was shot with only 300 dollars, So I figure time money and effort times even more would be better but was halted. I was devistated.

I've critised harshly. I always do. I havent seen your yet larry. I'll give you feedback once I watch it. I enter this to compete and to show work. I assure I had everything ready I'm dying because I didnt get to enter. But you should enter each contest "in it to win it" mode; if not what are you showcasing?

Seriously, though. If you aren't shooting for the stars, then why are you shooting?

I feel horrible, as well. I had 3k potentially invested into my hero-fest script, and it was ready to go. Then, got down to the weekend..and.. well.. arG. It's eating me up inside. I get your ail.

[JimtheJib]

to be honest spidey all i see here is some one who is complaining without giving specific or usefull feedback, while you yourself did not enter, IMHO. Chanel that frustration and dissapointment into helping everybody else who is not worthy or not up to your standards. thats what this is all about, not hating...

alex

[spidey]

but I have gave comments to those I've seen. I havent got to all. but i been telling them how it is.

[Larry Rutledge]

I totally agree, I entered with the goal of winning. I wanted to make the best film I possibly could. But I also am aware of my limitations/lack of experience and so had an ulterior motive of learning.

For me to get fair, honest feedback is as great as getting any prize I could win by having the best entry.

Sure, I want to win...everyone that enters wants to win. And that goal should drive us to the highest peak of our experience and talent....but baring that, if I don't win, then I want to know why. What did I do wrong? What was I missing? What would make it better? How could I improve this so next time I can win?

That's what I mean. I hope you do watch my film and I hope you enjoy it, but more than that I want to know, honestly and fairly, what didn't work in your mind and what could/should I have done differently.

Looking forward to your comments.

I also agree with briceman, there is a right way and a wrong way to share criticism. You can tell people the truth and what you honestly believe/feel without making them feel like they are idiots and losers. If I have zero talent, then tell me; but if I have even an inkling of talent showing through then treat me like there is the possibility of improving rather than making me feel like I am in the wrong "business".

Peace,
Larry

[JimtheJib]

i don't mind telling it how it really is or honesty. i just didn't like the way you came off sounding

[D_and_G]

Originally posted by LarryR
It is great to hear people applaud you, but I don't think anyone here enters for that goal exclusively. This is supposed to be (at least I thought it was) a site dedicated to the exchange of knowledge and expertise...why can't that extend to the festivals?

Along with that, I think the "international quality" films you all refer to had larger than $400 budgets and more experienced cast/crew and more than 3 months from concept to release.

Kholi - I don't know why you would be PM'd for negative comments....in my mind that is the whole point of this festival. I was anxiously awaiting the "negative comments", not because I like to hear negative things...but I knew it would be honest and fair.

Please understand, I'm not upset at the comments and ideas suggested in this thread. And I am in no way feeling defensive because my film was not one of the favorites. I just want to make sure everyone remembers this is supposed to be a place to grow and to help others grow.

I agree Larry. That's why I said that those international films are in a different league ( budget, professional crew, SAG actors, time). And hence my surprise, if we did get to that point. Yet, it is the gold standard for many.

Maybe, this thread shows that there are competing agendas in these fests, which is not necessarily a bad thing . For many it's an opportunity to learn and grow, and for others they are wanting to produce festival worthy films, which requires a higher level of both skill and critique. I can see where both sides have valid points. Personally i find it gratifying to see artists improve, and I want to be totally constructive. But on the other hand, I have a different front that I'd like to judge/help get the participants to - festival worthy. It's a conundrum, for me.

Sort of like Kholi, I don't want to get into arguing over the quality of a film with the filmmakers. I try and be as positive and constructive as can be, where i feel I can help, but sometimes that's too much, I guess.

Either way, I applaud all those who shot something...good bad...sucked...rocked...rolled...and I don't care if that's pussy footing.

This community is a unique place. Like i said, rising tide. that's what I'd like to see. So in these fests, one day, we're arguing over whether it's good enough for Cannes, or just Palm Springs :beer:

[spidey]

yeah but theres too many better luck next time critics and not many harsh one. if you dont prepare for the hard critics then what? you're gonna get eaten up and feel worse than ever. im only trying to make people better film makers.

[Kholi]

B man/Bricemane is right, it's all in how you say it. I need to work on how I present criticism.

And above, once again, Spidey is right. You guys, the real critics are going to rip you to shreds when you get to that level. Preparing for it now will give you the thick skin that you need to survive such things. Because, they aren't your friends-- and they don't care what you have to say in return. It's just their brutal honesty and that's that.

LoL. ANd that would be a funny arguement... "Dude.. no... Cannes? I mean.. almost.. . but you're better off trying Palm Springs.".

[spidey]

I mean if the movie is gonna be screened in LA, do you think there will be alot people lined up to see one man epic? doubt it. anyway I have to go. cya tomorrow.

[Matthew B. Moore]

1. Making the film is hard. There is something to be said for any one who crosses the finish line. These damn things take so much of you life to finish that when some one starts talking smack, it can hurt. Thick skin starts to grow where, at first, there were injuries.
2. You have to make a portion of it for the people. Many of us have OUR vision. No one wants to stray from THIER vision. It's theirs after all. You need to know your audience and entertain them. If you don't care what they think, why show it to them.
3. No one piece of work will be liked by all. There is simply no way to hit that mark.
4. Winning something like this, as we now know, takes dedication, sacrafice and a hell of a lot of thought. Some take that very seriously. I can even see how some, after working their asses off, could get offended by the level of slack others put into their films.

Its a nasty fight to stay on top of the water. Many drop off, few can make the whole run.

For those of you just starting. Be a hard ass, give it your all, get back up if you fail, fight the giant, but don't, for the love of God, make a chunk of crap and then try to upgrade it by calling it art.

New folks and young up starts, you only have to be that as long as you keep yourselves there. Watch you competion, learn their skills and kick their asses.

Be down.

[Isaac_Brody]

Just a thought, a couple thoughts. Out of 25 entries Spidey listed six good entries, I would count between 7-8 really great entries. 30-40 percent of the films in competition were solid really good films. People may think it's terrible, but that's actually a very good figure. Of the seventy odd films in sci-fest, the ratio of good to bad was much much lower.

Secondly, you've gotta take into account that most people making films for fests have other responsibilities besides their film. Sure you might have four months to complete a film, but maybe you work forty hours a week and only have the time after work and on the weekends to get things rolling. Or maye you're busy moving across country. If you're lucky you're you've got overlap between work and your film.

Last, I think it's possible to be honest about what's wrong with a film without tearing people down. I'll critique a film but I won't judge the person. It's easy for people to take things personally when you tell them their film sucks. I don't care if you think a film sucks, but I care if you don't tell a person why their film sucks. There's no room for improvement with one line reviews or giving an A to F review of films.(Remember Coltrain?) I like it when there's honesty about what does and doesn't work. That's the only way to get better. But just keep in mind that people have fragile egos. Telling a person their film sucks, and telling them their direction is weak are very different. Basically, be a tactful asshole if you can.

[D_and_G]

This site is supposed to be about critique and encouragement, I think. Sometimes those compete. And the fests are one of those times, IMO.

BTW Spidey, i don't line up for ANY movie:laugh: Except during a festival, where its inevitable. WKW's especially.

There are probably ten posts in front of me, and this makes no sense now, but I'm gonna post it anyway :beer:

Cheers.

[J.R. Hudson]

If you don't mind me sayin', you just have to use all that theory you've been studying.

Thanks :/

I know, I know .... Damn it.

No excuses. I am in for Horrorfest and I have high expectation's for myself. Too much talk and not enough action from my azz in a long while

[D_and_G]

No excuses. I am in for Horrorfest and I have high expectation's for myself.

:thumbsup: Look forward to it, mate.





Time to go throw some T-bones on the grill (no cheese steak for me Briceman :)). Adios.



Cheers.

[Brandon Rice]

haha... well, I agree with Isaac. The ratio of good to bad is much better this time, and I have seen a HUGE improvement for some over their sci-fest films. I hope to get a horrorfest entry going. A lot of the future is unshure for me right now, so I can't promise anything. But, I look forward to it nonetheless. Especially since Hudson is in! :)

[jpbankesmercer]

not enough action from my azz in a long while

I agree you lazy sod! :)

Can't wait for the Horrorfest it's time to sort out the men from the boyz.

Spidey, it's good for our art to get slated. This business is built on rejection. I'd have it no other way.
J

[Norm Sanders]

Hey John, I wouldn't say I really took it too personally, as my film wasn't singled out as one that sucked, and only afterwards was it included in the "Great" list, which still doesn't really fix what my frustration was. I LOVE people that give good honest feedback, believe me. But to me, it's all about the delivery.

A person will likely be able to help someone that much more by tactfully saying what worked and even more so what DIDN'T work, than just broad based comments about how the film's on par with a 48 hour film festival entry. Simply put, broad based comments piss me off, so if that seems personal then I guess it is. But attrocities that happen in other countries make me angry as well, although I don't take them personally.

My comment back to Spidey was just an attempt for a wake up call at what he said, not so much to fire this thread up. In fact, it was one of the film makers that was originally applauded by him that brought the thread to my attention, otherwise I don't know if I would ever even have noticed.


but I have gave comments to those I've seen. I havent got to all. but i been telling them how it is.

But that's my point, Spidey, is you tell it like it is but are you really helping them? Here's what you posted in our film's thread:


here goes:

under lit with a greyness to it.
OST was over board to where you couldnt hear whats going on.
Noooooo! classic.
I didnt understand whats going on about roaches and stuff I think mostly because of the soundtrack over the voices.
graphics eh.

Generalities. Unless the soundtrack was too loud over EVERYTHING, and the ENTIRE film was underlit, you could be more beneficial by stating some specific scenes that had issues. Going the extra mile (which I try to do when leaving comments for people) is to then give some ideas for how they can improve (i.e. try using bounce cards to fill in where the shadows are, get the mic in closer next time, make this cut sooner at this point, etc.).

Yes, you can help people with telling them what DOESN'T work, but can't you help them even more by also telling them what DOES work (so they'll know to keep that in the next one) and/or what specifically they can do to improve it? Otherwise, more often that not, that type of criticism will simply deflate people, especially the new ones.


yeah but theres too many better luck next time critics and not many harsh one. if you dont prepare for the hard critics then what? you're gonna get eaten up and feel worse than ever. im only trying to make people better film makers.

And honestly, I don't think giving critiques has to be this crusade about helping people to have thicker skin ... they'll get that naturally as they go through life anyway, so why not take the energy and point it in ways to TRULY make them better film makers, by telling them what they can do to improve certain lighting, sound, camera, editing, etc. So they can LEARN from you, not just wonder what they can do to fix what you said stunk.

And lastly, with regards to Kholi, I'm one of the ones that PM'd him. As he's mentioned he was overly harsh in a thread (Briceman, whom he's now friends with), and I simply PM'd him to tell him to tone it down, and if he's going to rip someone a new one to also take the time to say what could have been improved ... which eventually he did. I would never look at Kholi and say he's been "tamed" but simply that he's got some insight into what can help someone vs. just suck the wind out of their sales.

[Blaine]

I LOVE people that give good honest feedback, believe me. But to me, it's all about the delivery.

A person will likely be able to help someone that much more by tactfully saying what worked and even more so what DIDN'T work, than just broad based comments about how the film's on par with a 48 hour film festival entry. Simply put, broad based comments piss me off, so if that seems personal then I guess it is. But attrocities that happen in other countries make me angry as well, although I don't take them personally.

My comment back to Spidey was just an attempt for a wake up call...

But that's my point, Spidey, is you tell it like it is but are you really helping them? Here's what you posted in our film's thread:

Generalities... you could be more beneficial by stating some specific scenes that had issues.

Yes, you can help people with telling them what DOESN'T work, but can't you help them even more by also telling them what DOES work (so they'll know to keep that in the next one) and/or what specifically they can do to improve it? Otherwise, more often that not, that type of criticism will simply deflate people, especially the new ones.

And honestly, I don't think giving critiques has to be this crusade about helping people to have thicker skin ... they'll get that naturally as they go through life anyway, so why not take the energy and point it in ways to TRULY make them better film makers, by telling them what they can do to improve certain lighting, sound, camera, editing, etc. So they can LEARN from you, not just wonder what they can do to fix what you said stunk.
Norm, please forgive the extreme editing but I really believe you have the right thing going here. We have gotten to used to the "Simon Cowells" who want to make sure that people are aware of how bad they are but give little or no advice on how to make it better.

"Have you taken film classes?" "Yes" "Then I'd get a lawyer and sue for your money back"

We all get a laugh out of that but not much CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is given. This time around, I've tried very hard to be constructive. Not alway succeeded but I've tried.

It's called bedside manner. You can really get a point across that might help someone become a better filmmaker by being tactful than by being an ass. Sure, you may be doing them a favor by driving them out of the field before they waste a lot of money, but on the other hand, with some well placed suggestions, you might just help create the next Spielberg...who knows, I certainly don't. :)

[Kholi]

And lastly, with regards to Kholi, I'm one of the ones that PM'd him. As he's mentioned he was overly harsh in a thread (Briceman, whom he's now friends with), and I simply PM'd him to tell him to tone it down, and if he's going to rip someone a new one to also take the time to say what could have been improved ... which eventually he did. I would never look at Kholi and say he's been "tamed" but simply that he's got some insight into what can help someone vs. just suck the wind out of their sales.

You're right, no "taming" at all. This and Honda-Tech are the only two forums I ever frequent on the internet, and Honda-Tech is still scarce. That being said, no need to make enemies at all. I'd much rather not critique anyone's work at all, in fear of not being able to tell the truth about it.

Again, though, it's fine to be honest and helpful on the boards... you guys should just be weary that the criticism will be thirty-worse when you go to pitch your product to a paying audience or investors.

A question to the people asking for criticism, how to make this or that better... how are you really taking it? Is it really "Okay let me write this down and mull over it so that I can implement it into my next project..."... or is it more like.. "Who the hell does this guy think he is? He's no Spielberg/Rodriguez/Ramis... Why would I listen to his crap?".

[Larry Rutledge]

I'd much rather not critique anyone's work at all, in fear of not being able to tell the truth about it. I think it is a mistake to not critique for fear of backlash. Speak your mind and speak it truthfully. If someone doesn't like what you have to say, then they don't have to read it. If they comment on it and you feel put upon, fine, ignore it.


Again, though, it's fine to be honest and helpful on the boards... you guys should just be weary that the criticism will be thirty-worse when you go to pitch your product to a paying audience or investors.
I think we all understand that it is harsh and cruel out there...but it's not just the film world that is harsh and cruel. I for one have worked as a professional for 15+ years and have had my share of harsh critics...so I understand. I don't think the purpose of "DVX Fest" is to see just how harsh/cruel we can be. I didn't see the goal of this contest to see just how thick we can make everyone's skin.

Yes, if we make it, we will be harshly criticised....we'll deal with it, or we'll disappear. In the meantime, how about helping people improve the quality of their work so the criticism is few and far between.


A question to the people asking for criticism, how to make this or that better... how are you really taking it? Is it really "Okay let me write this down and mull over it so that I can implement it into my next project..."... or is it more like.. "Who the hell does this guy think he is? He's no Spielberg/Rodriguez/Ramis... Why would I listen to his crap?".
If you really want to know, I have printed out every comment I have received and have read it several times. I want to have in mind the things I need to think about.

In fact, one of the comments I recieved from several had to do with my framing and editing choices...as a result the last two movies I've watched I spent 80% of the time concentrating on their framing and editing choices.

So yes, I am using what people here have said to improve myself. It doesn't mean I have to take everything 100% at face value, but at least I am concentrating on other's framing and editing and seeing how mine does/doesn't measure up.


... Why would I listen to his crap?".

Because the person reviewing is, at that moment, an audience member...and it doesn't matter what Spielberg/Ramis/Rodriguez/etc would do, what matters is what the viewing audience thinks of the project.

[Kholi]

I think it is a mistake to not critique for fear of backlash. Speak your mind and speak it truthfully. If someone doesn't like what you have to say, then they don't have to read it. If they comment on it and you feel put upon, fine, ignore it.



I think we all understand that it is harsh and cruel out there...but it's not just the film world that is harsh and cruel. I for one have worked as a professional for 15+ years and have had my share of harsh critics...so I understand. I don't think the purpose of "DVX Fest" is to see just how harsh/cruel we can be. I didn't see the goal of this contest to see just how thick we can make everyone's skin.

Yes, if we make it, we will be harshly criticised....we'll deal with it, or we'll disappear. In the meantime, how about helping people improve the quality of their work so the criticism is few and far between.
Thumbs-up, Larry. I don't think anyone's actually trying to be the biggest asshole critic. I for one will make sure to go in-depth in regards to my why's and why nots.

And glad to know that you take the comments to heart. I've just wondered, time to time, if that's what really goes through people's heads. I for one haven't made a single thing [yet], so I'd wonder why anyone would take my criticism seriously. Guess that's not how it really is.

[Blaine]

A question to the people asking for criticism, how to make this or that better... how are you really taking it? Is it really "Okay let me write this down and mull over it so that I can implement it into my next project..."... or is it more like.. "Who the hell does this guy think he is? He's no Spielberg/Rodriguez/Ramis... Why would I listen to his crap?".
Good question, Kholi. I think JimtheJib paid attention to the criticism on his last (SciFest) short. It was pointed out several times about his poor casting. He had kids doing adult (businessmen) parts. This time around he seemed to work within his casting abilities and it showed a marked improvement. You're a writer. It's gotta be hard to listen to criticism so close to the creation of your work. I know when I write something, I need to get away from it for a bit to allow some distance so I can be realistic about it. Usually, I go through stages, just finishing it, I think it's pretty good, then I think it's shit, then okay, then what can I do to make it better... If I stopped at "pretty good" I'd never have anything any good. If I stopped at "it's shit" I'd never do another. It's the distance that's important for objectivity. And that's the problem with these fests, it's like cramming the night before a test, then thinking you've done pretty good only to get your paper back with a "D" or an "F" on it with no explanation. Even with an explanation, we may not yet have the distance we need for objectivity. :)

But then it's just my http://www.geocities.com/the_callaghans/emoticon-14.gif

[Kholi]

Good question, Kholi. I think JimtheJib paid attention to the criticism on his last (SciFest) short. It was pointed out several times about his poor casting. He had kids doing adult (businessmen) parts. This time around he seemed to work within his casting abilities and it showed a marked improvement. You're a writer. It's gotta be hard to listen to criticism so close to the creation of your work. I know when I write something, I need to get away from it for a bit to allow some distance so I can be realistic about it. Usually, I go through stages, just finishing it, I think it's pretty good, then I think it's shi*, then okay, then what can I do to make it better... If I stopped at "pretty good" I'd never have anything any good. If I stopped at "it's shi*" I'd never do another. It's the distance that's important for objectivity. And that's the problem with these fests, it's like cramming the night before a test, then thinking you've done pretty good only to get your paper back with a "D" or an "F" on it with no explanation. Even with an explanation, we may not yet have the distance we need for objectivity. :)

But then it's just my http://www.geocities.com/the_callaghans/emoticon-14.gif

Absolutely. It takes me forever to actually write something, and then it's a multiple of re-writes after I let a few people rip me apart. When I do let those certain people read, I have to prepare myself every time for what they'll say... because there's ALWAYS something wrong, missing, off, or simply stupid... some of those things that I think are just fine.

I see the point in constructive criticism and not destructive. I might not have felt that I was being too destructive, but I'll certainly make sure in the future.

[Dahopafilms]

I have to admit, I have a framed quote which sits on my desk beside my monitor.

It's from Richard Walter's book, Screenwriting, but personally I think it applies to all aspects of filmmaking:

"What is important for writers to learn about handling criticism is not merely to be polite even when it is unsolicited, or unsound, or downright stupid, but somehow to remain open to that odd, slim fragment that might prove useful."

Yes, I am a weenie.

But it's a nice quote.

[Blaine]

I see the point in constructive criticism and not destructive. I might not have felt that I was being too destructive, but I'll certainly make sure in the future.
Just so we're clear, I wasn't accusing you of being destructive. I was just making a general observation based on some reviews I read...not on yours. The following is an example of what I'd say is more destructive than constructive.

But not a one in my opinion got even close to a 7 for script. I'd give xxxxxxxx a 3 or 4 for script. ... But the script was just cringe-worthy.
To be fair, the review complained about "exposition" but was not particularly specific. It's a broad brush that paints the entire fest without examples of what is bad. It's like a drive by bashing. It's easy to say something is shit but it's much harder to say this is bad and here's why I think it's bad...followed by specific examples.

You've gotta particularly love the guy who comes around with 3 posts, no bonafides and not indication of any expertise on his personal info that comes in, both barrels blazing with nothing to back it up. The guy could be Robert Towne or William Goldman OR he could be a frustrated script reader that can't produce anything himself so he takes it out on others. (THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO REFER TO WILDERWORKS who is a script reader (according to his 'Additional Information'). BUT he has also WRITTEN an interesting story himself.)

[MiataFilmSomething]

(2 cents mode ON)

If someone wants to use a film I was involved with to show someone how not to do something, they darn well better send me a copy of the lecture. Telling someone else what's wrong with a film and not telling the people involved (if you have the chance to tell them anyway) to me is cowardice.

I think that anyone who submits a film to anything should know that there is potential that it's going to be put under a microscope. It's an accepted given.
People will either learn to accpet what others say about it or be too scared to get their feelings hurt to submit anything. Remember George McFly in Back to the Future? Wouldn't let anyone read his stuff, too afraid of rejection. It's something we all have to overcome.

But if you see something that could have been improved or want to give some advice, by all means give it. This was our first DVX entry, and more than prizes or bragging rights, we wanted to gather as much feedback as possible. We NEED to know what went wrong so we know what to improve in the future, and we're way too involved in the film to critique our own work. It's too hard to distance yourself from it.

So far I've been called large, big, (aka fat), poor line deliverer, speaker of cliche dialog, and unconvincing. Thank you! Those are the comments we need!

But please be specific. If you think our film sucks and we wasted our time, fine. But tell us why and how to improve it in a next movie.

(2 cents mode off)

[Matt Sconce]

Just a thought, a couple thoughts. Out of 25 entries Spidey listed six good entries, I would count between 7-8 really great entries. 30-40 percent of the films in competition were solid really good films. People may think it's terrible, but that's actually a very good figure. Of the seventy odd films in sci-fest, the ratio of good to bad was much much lower.

Secondly, you've gotta take into account that most people making films for fests have other responsibilities besides their film. Sure you might have four months to complete a film, but maybe you work forty hours a week and only have the time after work and on the weekends to get things rolling. Or maye you're busy moving across country. If you're lucky you're you've got overlap between work and your film.

Last, I think it's possible to be honest about what's wrong with a film without tearing people down. I'll critique a film but I won't judge the person. It's easy for people to take things personally when you tell them their film sucks. I don't care if you think a film sucks, but I care if you don't tell a person why their film sucks. There's no room for improvement with one line reviews or giving an A to F review of films.(Remember Coltrain?) I like it when there's honesty about what does and doesn't work. That's the only way to get better. But just keep in mind that people have fragile egos. Telling a person their film sucks, and telling them their direction is weak are very different. Basically, be a tactful asshole if you can.

What classifies a good movie? If you watch "Nine to Five Ninja", you will see a corny, tongue in Cheek, campy, silly thing. But it's pacing, editing, lighting, cinematography, score are great. It is supposed to be funny, and was an experiment in movie making (as it was our first try ever). I watched all the Zombiefest movies, and Scifest entries, and I agree that there is a better percentage of entries in herofest that have a semi professional feel to them.

There are surely some amazing movies in this contest, but there are many stand outs. Of course the majority would not be accepted in Cannes or Sundance, but is that the point? (the thing that makes a movie good) I believe we should constantly be striving for perfection of our craft and I believe this site is here to help all of us (from beginner to expert) to reach our goals. I believe a good movie is one that makes people feel something, whether it is hope, laughter, or other emotions. Just because the world is a harsh place does not mean we have to treat people poorly or insult them. In fact, a truly helpful critic, ispires others to be better. he does not break them and say "you suck, be better next time". This lack of tact hurts people, and hurting people does not have to be a part of critique. I have read many comments that have been extremely helpful to becoming better in this craft, and they inspired me to strive for better.

Saying someone did not put their all into a project is an arrogant assumption, as the critic has no idea of the context. Perhaps, it was the best they could do. A helpful critic will applaud them on their effort and then point them in the ways to become better. When I see someone tearing people down, I see an immature individual, who has not yet learned what it means to help someone.

Honesty is paramount but tact is the key. Behind each film is a person, desperately wanting to become better and hoping someone will like their effort and point them in a direction that helps them grow. I hope this site stays this way.

[Kholi]

Have to ask another question... it's for everyone--

Do you take these same things in consideration when you rip Hollywood movies a new one? It's all in the film discussion forums... people literally destroying directors, writers, movies in general.... there's no tact there.

So... how does that translate to judging DVXfest entries?

All I have to say is Uwe Boll... but he's still a person, isn't he?

[Larry Rutledge]

I hate to keep jumping in this thread, but for some reason it has really struck a nerve with me. There are two sentiments expressed in this thread that are just bugging me...one being that the projects entered are not worthy to be watched because the people watching are "professionals" and the projects are not "Cannes"-worthy; and, the other being that blanket criticisms are all that is necessary because "it is a hard world out there and you have to be ready".

Most of my reponses to these thoughts I've already expressed in the previous posts here....but to add to it, I think of this place as an online university. Most of what I know I have learned here from outstanding people, some of who entered this fest, most of whom didn't (and NO, I don't view entering the fest as a pre-requisite to critique the projects entered).

Reading through this thread I almost feel bad for entering...if it was so offensive to some that I enter something that "wasn't up to their level" and is so terrible to endure. It seems like sentiments like that would cause the fest to be less interesting to people, not draw more "professionals".

Sure I would LOVE to see top-quality film, and I would LOVE even more to create something worthy of winning...but how will I get there if no one gives me a chance to show what I know how to do now?



Ok, off my soapbox....I'll try not to get back on :)

[Blaine]

Have to ask another question... it's for everyone--

Do you take these same things in consideration when you rip Hollywood movies a new one? It's all in the film discussion forums... people literally destroying directors, writers, movies in general.... there's no tact there.

So... how does that translate to judging DVXfest entries?

All I have to say is Uwe Boll... but he's still a person, isn't he?
If I thought they were hanging around the boards, looking for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, sure, I'd share some of the nuggets I've garnered throughout my years of success...:grin: :grin: :grin:

[Kholi]

If I thought they were hanging around the boards, looking for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, sure, I'd share some of the nuggets I've garnered throughout my years of success...:grin: :grin: :grin:

LoL.

Nah, I was more wondering why people get to rip hollywood over and over, but get to defend themselves and their creation. That's not fair.

Regardless.


And Larry --

Forums are for discussion... you're free to constantly comment on anything you see fit. If something's totally got you bummed, then speak about it.

Sorry that you're not feeling good about entering your piece. You should feel great, because it's hard to put these things together. Even harder when you're dead serious about it. I had a great time in pre-production, and though I never made it to actual production, I am proud of myself for getting so far.

[Blaine]

Reading through this thread I almost feel bad for entering...if it was so offensive to some that I enter something that "wasn't up to their level" and is so terrible to endure. It seems like sentiments like that would cause the fest to be less interesting to people, not draw more "professionals".
You have absolutely no reason to feel that way. At least you had an entry, which is a lot more that can be said of the rest of us...:thumbsup:

[Anthem78]

I agree with this thread. The criticism we receive on this site is needed and should be welcomed. I don't want anyone to be afraid to tell me the truth about my film because I don't want to be afraid to say it about theirs.

If you give criticism and back it up with reasons or suggestions (as Isaac and others have done on my film's thread), great. My goal isn't to just make a herofest film and forget it. If the criticism I recieve helps me to make a better film, I welcome it and I'll use it.

[Norm Sanders]

I been dissappointed with the overall in the fest. less people and stories that either colide with simularities or poorly executed. there is one movie I really enjoyed because it dark theme but it's character development, camera movement, well designed lighting and lack of words summed up everything. I speak of Cache. A good film quiet and powerful. TGTN by conrad is weird but it did what it was suppose to do and I liked that film as well. and bone hand is shot very well.

BUT everything else is like bad 48 hour film projects. and the thing is people have monthes to make these movies and to be on par with movies that are made in 48 hours is kinda sad or rediculous.

I dunno I know their are learniers here but I want more.

come on, people step it up.

At least on the next one. I know I'm in.

(yes, I added the bold underlining & large font to high light what I'm referrring to below)

Well I can understand why Larry could feel bad, not that he should. But when you've got a respected member who WON the last festival, do a broad stroke with the brush & say EVERY film (other than the 3 he gave his blessing to) is not only bad, but a "bad 48 hour film project" ... it can ruffle some feathers & suck the wind out of people's sails.

So I guess my biggest point is to tell people to THINK before they type, or at the VERY least re-read what they typed & possibly make edits before they hit the submit button, as apparently Spidey didn't really think about what he was saying .... reason being is that when he came back to the thread, he then added 3 more films to the list of films he thought were "great", but which had just previously been massed into the "bad 48 hour film project" category.

Lastly, he had to pull out (even after investing $1,200+ of his own money) of the festival because of circumstances that arose ... but what if he had plowed through & entered anyway? Would the film have been the best it could have been?

I'd wager to say not, which is why he made the personal decision to stay out of this one. Kudos to him, and that's neither a good or bad choice, but his & his alone to make, which I respect.

However, for a lot of people that DID enter this festival, they also had odds up against them, or things fall apart in the last minute, or weren't able to finally get it all together until 10 days before the deadline (or sooner) to even get STARTED ... yet they chose to see what they could do in the amount of time given, or no matter what the obstacle, and they entered anyway.

So, yeah, I can see why people may get a little offended by someone who dropped out of the festival because they couldn't make the perfect film, yet mercilessly bashes nearly everyone else with a broad comment about how bad their film is, and that he "wants more".

Tact, folks, tact. Which requires some thought before hand, in most cases.

[Larry Rutledge]

I think what really got me "bothered" was after those broad statements about "all the other films", then he mentioned he hadn't even watched mine.

So how many did he watch? And how many really were bad after all? Maybe he only watched 5 films, 3 of which were the ones he liked and the other 2 were the "all the other films".

That is what bugged me so much.

Sorry got back on the soapbox, but felt it was necessary.

[D_and_G]

I certainly don't think ANY of these films are beneath "professionals". Hopefully, one day when I can comfortably call me'self that, I'll still respect and treat with fellowship ANY artist who is passionate about what they do and their craft, regardless of the result.

I've sat in script meetings and had the most ludicrous suggestions and notes by wankers. I expect that kind of bolloxing by pros. When I was in school there was a different criteria. Mostly, it was the achievement of the vision and less on the comparison to Nicholl winning scripts. IMHO, that's a subtle line that shifts when you enter the marketplace.

I agree about tact and providing concrete examples and advice. Mayhap, I should try and do more of that. But I don't think I'm accomplished enough to give that kind of advice. Who knows? I could feel that way for awhile.

I appreciate everyone who got off their butts and made a film. Art is about doing. These fests are an example of that.

Some people want to hold these films to a higher criteria. I appreciate that, but I also want to give artists here a chance at realizing their vision. Professionals or not. I don't know if its possible to achieve those two things without discouraging young filmmakers. It's an interesting balancing act anyway.

And Kholi - no I don't judge these films with the same standards as Hollywood ones. For the most part, those guys have no excuses for turning out the shyte they do. Certainly, when Uwe Boll rolls by in his Porsche, I won't shed a tear if I flip him the bird. :violin:I also wouldn't hesitate to send a Guinness to Colin Farrell's table for "Phonebooth"('cause I dug it)... That's what they get the benjamins for. :beer:








Cheers.

[Larry Rutledge]

Wait! Maybe I haven't explained myself well enough.... I DO hold these films up to the same standards as "hollywood" - including my own. Yes, I fell short of those standards, but that doesn't make my film a failure.

How many films in "hollywood" are perfect successes? How many films in "hollywood" are LOVED by EVERYONE? Take the Village for example....That is one of my favorite films, yet many people dislike it and have bashed it without mercy.

Does that mean the filmmakers shouldn't have submitted the film, since it didn't meet the standards of the people who hated it so much? What about those of us who enjoy it, then we would have missed out.

Yes, I hold myself to very high standards....and one day I hope to achieve them. And, how will I (or others) achieve those standards without means of getting our work completed and reviewed by people who will give honest and fair criticism?

This isn't about looking for pats on the back, this is about making the absolute best project possible under the constraints and difficulties that we face during the process.

[Brandon Rice]

Dude... I'll say it again... Spidey's film DID NOT impress me last festival... but did I sit there and go... "dude it was like a 48 hour film project!" No... I respected him and gave him the props where I felt props due, and negative (subjective mind you) critique when it was due.

Larry, don't feel bad, you went out and freakin' got it done! That's awesome, and I respect that you did that!

And guess what ya'll, some 48 film projects are INCREDIBLE! Some even are better than films that take months or years to make, so it's all subjective really, and we need to all learn HOW to make our comments (primarily the negative) and to show each other a little more respect and common courtesy.

[Kholi]

Wait! Maybe I haven't explained myself well enough.... I DO hold these films up to the same standards as "hollywood" - including my own. Yes, I fell short of those standards, but that doesn't make my film a failure.

How many films in "hollywood" are perfect successes? How many films in "hollywood" are LOVED by EVERYONE? Take the Village for example....That is one of my favorite films, yet many people dislike it and have bashed it without mercy.

Does that mean the filmmakers shouldn't have submitted the film, since it didn't meet the standards of the people who hated it so much? What about those of us who enjoy it, then we would have missed out.

Yes, I hold myself to very high standards....and one day I hope to achieve them. And, how will I (or others) achieve those standards without means of getting our work completed and reviewed by people who will give honest and fair criticism?

This isn't about looking for pats on the back, this is about making the absolute best project possible under the constraints and difficulties that we face during the process.

Yeah, seriously, Larry. If you aren't holding yourself to those standards then what are you doing it for? I'm with you all the way.

I think it's a dis-service not to hold the submissions to those standards. I think I understand the point more-so, now. I expect the same treatment as you do in the future.

[D_and_G]

Yeah, seriously, Larry. If you aren't holding yourself to those standards then what are you doing it for? I'm with you all the way.

I think it's a dis-service not to hold the submissions to those standards. I think I understand the point more-so, now. I expect the same treatment as you do in the future.

Haha, Kholi, i was with ya there for awhile, but I can't agree, totally.

I'll say right out, I won't judge these films with the same criteria I would a Cannes/Sundance/Hollywood film. It's a different ballgame, IMO. How would one go about comparing the results of SAG actors, tens of thousand dollar budgets (yes some of the award winning shorts cost that much -many are gov't grant subsidized) professional crew, and award winning screenplays (culled from hundreds of submissions in each country) ? I don't know...

Don't mistake me, that's the standard I go by, but I feel it would be unfair to apply it to others here. I kind of want to do that, but the mechanics of taking apart the film, all the way down to initial concept, might not be efficacious for the filmmaker in improving,
IMHO.

Also, I don't think I have the props to do that. Like I said, it's a balancing act between wanting to be helpful and constructive, and still give a critical review.

Perhaps I should make a list of people who want to be held to near Oscar-like perfection ? Ok *** takes out pen and paper*** LarryR, Kholi ... :) :)


EDIT - I feel like a d**k reviewing other people's stuff when I haven't shown any of mine yet too.

Cheers

[Kholi]

Haha, Kholi, i was with ya there for awhile, but I can't agree, totally.

I'll say right out, I won't judge these films with the same criteria I would a Cannes/Sundance/Hollywood film. It's a different ballgame, IMO. How would one go about comparing the results of SAG actors, tens of thousand dollar budgets (yes some of the award winning shorts cost that much -many are gov't grant subsidized) professional crew, and award winning screenplays (culled from hundreds of submissions in each country) ? I don't know...

Don't mistake me, that's the standard I go by, but I feel it would be unfair to apply it to others here. I kind of want to do it, but the mechanics of taking apart the film, all the way down to initial concept, might not be efficacious for the filmmaker in improving, IMHO.

Also, I don't think I have the props to do that.

Damn, maybe I should judge others with the high degree I hold myself to? That seems so unfair :grin:
Perhaps I should make a list of people who want to be held to near perfection ? Ok *** takes out pen and paper*** LarryR, Kholi ... :) :)


xD Has nothing to with "perfection" i'd say. Because, and I'm sure you know this, even in a major multi-million-dollar production... well, things go wrong hourly. It's the nature of the craft/business/machine/monster. There's never a perfect movie. Something can always be improved upon. Yeah?

I don't mind being judged on those standards.

S'like... "Wow! Your film is good (as a DVXuser film.)". I don't think that helps at all. S'just me though.

[Alex DePew]

I think the fact that we are having this conversation is indicative that this forum can for the most part coddle our own filmmakers. I entered this fest with my first film. Was it amazing? No. Are there things I would change. Hell yes. Lots of things. Did I learn a crap load that will make my next films way better. You bet your arse. I received some criticism for my film's cursing. And at first I wrote it off as being from prudes or people who just find the cursing or the subject matter inappropriate. But later people mentioned that they didn't have problems with cursing in general, just in this piece and that the delivery or the look of the actors may be the reason it seemed out of place. Now that made me take another look. And I see what they are saying. Criticising a film without providing either a reason or and example is not helpful. And I completely agree that tact should be exercised, but not to the point where people watch a movie they thought was bad (even if it is mine) and say it was good but.....

There are only a very few honest people who speak up when they have something to say that may bruise egos or cause hurt feelings. Most people on this board are very nice and say only positive things. I myself prefer the former. I would rather get critiqued hard and ignore that which I find wrong and take in that which I find merit in, even if it is something that shatters my perception of my movie. I don't care if the person critiquing has never made a film or never seen a short before mine. If they have a valid argument, that's all there is to it.

There is a poetry forum I was on for a little while and it was the exact opposite. They ripped into people who didn't put up what they considered good poetry. But they gave extremely indepth reasons and tons of suggestions as to how to improve. There was one incident when a girl who had to be around 13-18 years old or so juding from her poem got her poem called trite and said that she shouldn't write another poem until she reads enough poetry to understand what makes a poem good. But they also gave her tons of specific critques of lines that didn't work and emotions that were to broad. And they gave her lists of authors and workshops to help her out. I thought that the way they handled her was ridiculously harsh but that the information was extremely useful.

I think there are mostly two types of filmmakers on this board (broad generalization time). Those who make films for themselves and don't have serious aspirations to really challenge themselves. They are primarily working on making small steps and take a lot of time between those steps. There is nothing wrong withg this. Many have paying jobs (maybe related to film, maybe not) and this is their passion outside of that. But then there are those who have that extra something that are required to really make it. Motivation and determination. Filmmaking is a harsh mistress and this board is an island where you can relax and enjoy yourself. But if you have dreams of making it (whatever that is to you), you have to really get used to the pressure, harsh critiques, and dealing with issues that I can't even fathom since I am not yet an accomplished filmmaker.

This will invariably raise the question, well who are you? I am the latter. And if you want to be serious, the first step is to say you are a filmmaker and make it happen. In "Breaking In: How 20 filmmakers Got Their Start" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0767906748/102-8775334-5410522?v=glance&n=283155) there is a quote that you have to say you are a director and then convince others. Noone will tell you you are a director or let you direct untill you say you are a director. There is no career path that automatically graduates you to director. I am a beginner and this board is my AAA ballclub. But I plan on getting called up to the majors eventually. Don't worry I'll still visit. :) I am a director and criticisms are welcome.

See you all in Horrorfest.

Alex

[D_and_G]

Well, I meant perfection in the sense of achieving extremely high quality across the board of all the aspects of a production. Obviously, perfection is an illusion when it comes to filmmaking.

Likewise, I would like to be judged to that international standard aforementioned.

What I have a hard time doing is balancing the encouragement of an artist whilst constructively giving them a critical review. For example, if i reviewed a short film and 9 out of ten points were pointing to the deficiencies, while including tips on fixing them (some unfixable, like originality) - wouldn't that filmmaker come away discouraged, even if you let them know you are judging them by a Hollywood criteria ? The last thing I want to do is discourage an artist from entering again, improving, and prospering. Both LarryR and Envision have shown great improvement over the fests. I find that extremely commendable.

I agree that purely azz kissing responses aren't wanted or needed here. My problem is moderating the critical evaluation with the resources of the filmmakers at hand. That's all I'm saying - I take those kinds of things into account when reviewing, and I don't review if i don't think I can add anything, or detract so much from the piece that it's overwhelmingly negative.

Heck, I'm just figuring all this out too. We seem to be sympatico (Kholi, Alex, LarryR) on how we would like our work to be judged, so that's something at least :beer:

This thread has made me think about how i judge the entrants though. Damn, i'm missing the football highlights ... ;)

:beer:

[Alex DePew]

What I have a hard time doing is balancing the encouragement of an artist whilst constructively giving them a critical review. For example, if i reviewed a short film and 9 out of ten points were pointing to the deficiencies, while including tips on fixing them (some unfixable, like originality) - wouldn't that filmmaker come away discouraged, even if you let them know you are judging them by a Hollywood criteria ? The last thing I want to do is discourage an artist from entering again, improving, and prospering. Both LarryR and Envision have shown great improvement over the fests. I find that extremely commendable.

It is hard. But telling someone that they are unoriginal is more important than saying the acting wasn't good. If you don't think they have a solid foundation you especially need to tell them that. They need to evaluate your take on their work and see if they either A) need to learn how to write a story B) tell that story more effectively C) hire a writer if they can't do it themselves D) pick a position that is more suited to their talents and interests.

[D_and_G]

It is hard. But telling someone that they are unoriginal is more important than saying the acting wasn't good. If you don't think they have a solid foundation you especially need to tell them that. They need to evaluate your take on their work and see if they either A) need to learn how to write a story B) tell that story more effectively C) hire a writer if they can't do it themselves D) pick a position that is more suited to their talents and interests.

gotcha Alex ! :thumbsup:

So you think that we should be reviewing these films as if they are up against an Oscar winner, or Golden Bear/Palm winner ? That's not sarcasm, I was just wondering about your take.

And I just don't know how comfortable I would be telling someone that they need to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch, even if I give them specific reasons and possible alternatives, as you mentioned.

F**k if i know. I just want to help them be better filmmakers, and give them a comparitive analysis for the resources at hand. I want to be a positive dickie bird, and a fair one too... when I say I like something, or don't, i mean it. I'd rather stay silent, then kiss azz...

[J.R. Hudson]

I immediately see people making excuses in terms of reference of Canne or Sundance competing short's with defense of budget's and SAG actor's and I say

Whateva ' !

If you will it; you can make it happen. Forget about budget's and SAG actor's.

We're talking 5 Minute Short's here. It takes effort. Forget about hiring and/or working with your 'buddy's. Hire and work with real talent and can really help beyond P. A.

Peluca (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz2slv0sNYY&search=peluca)was a 9 Minute short from Jared Hess made for less than $500 and shot on 16mm. That is just one example of what we can do within our budget's (The talent being the most impressive aspect of that example).

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5897/pel4fu.gif

What about Jack's shot of the little girl in The Odd Sqaud (http://frenchquarterfeatures.com/) ? I remember this shot alone being super impressive (A lot of the shot's in that were nicely done)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2272/girl1oa.gif

What Rich Lee's Music Video from Buckfast 'Just Like You' (http://www.rich-lee.com/shortfilms.htm)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2629/rlee4fu.gif

Sam and Jesse's Texas Fortune (http://www.earthfirewindwater.com/txf/)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7146/tf9qw.gif

...

I could go on all night with examples of work from here and in the world ....

---

There are some folk's here that make excuses for their work (or lack of) and there those that make none whatsoever and are headed full steam ahead.

It's time we all expected more of each other and definately time for any fear or insecurity with feedback to take a hike.

---

Horrorfest is up next. Let's hope the player's show up.

[Rasquachemedia]

gotcha Alex ! :thumbsup:

So you think that we should be reviewing these films as if they are up against an Oscar winner, or Golden Bear/Palm winner ? That's not sarcasm, I was just wondering about your take.:

I'm curious to hear what others think as well on this question. I've never approached the festivals (beginning with zombiefest) with that criteria for probably a few reasons. One i'm not in the profession, i'm a hobbyist who really enjoys this forum and has learned a lot (but i do have an interest in making a documentary, which I plan to begin in by November) and I was under the assumption that some-to-many joined the festivals for fun rather than competition.

My impression was based, i guess, from the zombiefest. Of course we had some great films there, but many seemed like they were put together without much care for one or more areas of filmmaking (story, acting, directing, cinematography, etc.)

So I thought the festivals were for people who wanted to win and for those who wanted to experiment/have fun/develop (specific) skills.

But i can understand the frustration of being asked to watch a film that looks like not much effort was put in to it. In fact, I think thats why I didn't really pay too much attention to scifest, after zombiefest when i watched every single film more than once.

Personally, my critiques would never be based on "experience" or "talent" because I'm novice and am more interested in non-ficition than fiction production, but I do know what I like and what I don't like.

But let me add, that I have been dissappointed with what I have seen this time around. This is not to say it didn't happen before, but I never noticed it.

On at least three occassions I've seen some really harsh and negative "critiques" that not only lacked substance but were posted by someone with only 2 or 3 posts. The worst was deleted by one of the moderators (thnx).

Aside from that quick note, back to the original question. How or by what standards should we review these films?

[Brandon Rice]

I immediately see people making excuses in terms of reference of Canne or Sundance competing short's with defense of budget's and SAG actor's and I say

Whateva ' !

If you will it; you can make it happen. Forget about budget's and SAG actor's.

We're talking 5 Minute Short's here. It takes effort. Forget about hiring and/or working with your 'buddy's. Hire and work with real talent and can really help beyond P. A.

Peluca (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz2slv0sNYY&search=peluca)was a 9 Minute short from Jared Hess made for less than $500 and shot on 16mm. That is just one example of what we can do within our budget's (The talent being the most impressive aspect of that example).

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5897/pel4fu.gif

What about Jack's shot of the little girl in The Odd Sqaud (http://frenchquarterfeatures.com/) ? I remember this shot alone being super impressive (A lot of the shot's in that were nicely done)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2272/girl1oa.gif

What Rich Lee's Music Video from Buckfast 'Just Like You' (http://www.rich-lee.com/shortfilms.htm)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2629/rlee4fu.gif

Sam and Jesse's Texas Fortune (http://www.earthfirewindwater.com/txf/)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7146/tf9qw.gif

...

I could go on all night with examples of work from here and in the world ....

---

There are some folk's here that make excuses for their work (or lack of) and there those that make none whatsoever and are headed full steam ahead.

It's time we all expected more of each other and definately time for any fear or insecurity with feedback to take a hike.

---

Horrorfest is up next. Let's hope the player's show up.

Good points John and I agree... BUT... like I said before, IMO there is a right way and a wrong way to make critique. I think you have a very good sense of that.

[D_and_G]

It's time we all expected more of each other and definately time for any fear or insecurity with feedback to take a hike.

Hmmm, I expect a lot. Like I said, i don't think there has been ANY dvxuser film that stands up to the best of international competition. There have been vast improvements by many though.

I'll have to think about reviewing with that standard in mind. Maybe, as you suggest it's applicable in these contests. That would certainly be putting the bar much much higher.



cheers.

[J.R. Hudson]

I agree with you

SIMILO I would offer up. Curugon's Texas Fortune as a maybe for International competetion

I have been delighted with a handful of film's:

CPU
THE LAUGHING BLOOD
ODD
BONEHAND
SIMILO
WE ARE NOT ALONE

and some other's ...

I believe a few of the member's here are really ready to make a Quantam Leap; but they;re gonna have to want it. '

[Brandon Rice]

I believe a few of the member's here are really ready to make a Quantam Leap; but they;re gonna have to want it. '

Amen. I WANT it.

[Edgen]

"see ya'll in horrorfest." My favorite quote of this entire thread.

/j

[Ralph Oshiro]

My two cents . . . more hot chicks!

[spidey]

for the hunderth time i know you didnt like my movie briceman I know you told me that alot and I dont care. one person opinion see? But i took what you said into concideration but it doesnt mean my next movie will has less violence language nudity.... in fact my horror fest will probli be more. I want to go to the extremes. Each movie I make the more complex I want to make the shots. I want to make the story more complex. I learn something since the last one, make a 7 min script at least and nothing more. CPU script was 20 pages then I had to trim 20 mins out of it thas why the movie is the way it is. but in either case I knew the flaws. and when people to me I said thanks I will use this to help me. Not go: WHAT NU UH! I take each thing with concideration of where people are coming from.

Briceman I know your convictions and I know my film probli didnt fall in you watching catagory but it did with many others.

I want make those type of movies.

Envision, I know what I said because I meant what I said. there are alot of films here that feel like no effort. when you have one go over the top and other lack what do you do. I plan on watching them all today. also envision my critique was quick if you want a more longer one I will give you one if you like.


I think there is alot of people here that agree but are afraid to say it.

John Hudson I totally agree with you. After I saw texas Fortune I set my goals to compete to films like that.

talent, story and money. If you expect to compete in these things shouldnt you try to out do whats nesscessary to win? Go beyond it?

I mean call me an ass for telling you how it is... sorry. But I do plan on telling my critques today to each person.

[Alex DePew]

So you think that we should be reviewing these films as if they are up against an Oscar winner, or Golden Bear/Palm winner ? That's not sarcasm, I was just wondering about your take.

The only standard I think you should hold the films to is whether or not you were entertained. Did you feel something while watching the short. If it is a comedy, did it make you laugh. If it is a drama, was the idea interesting and well told. I think that all films regardless of budget should be held to this standard. As long as indie filmmakers are operating with small to no budgets there will always be something to critique. The question is whether or not the film succeeded in telling it's story and wether or not that story was worth telling (i.e. original, new, interesting, funny, etc..) If the movie was ruined by bad acting, say so. If the movie was ruined by a bad script say so. If the movie was poorly directed, keep your comments to yourself:nads: (just kiding, of course say so.) But if the movie worked and was only diminished by one or more of these integral aspects, then I think the movie was a success. And the people involved have understood what it takes to make a movie because with such small budgets there will always be sacrifices. But did these sacrifices compromise your telling of the story? That is the method I use for judgement. And I try to offer criticism in a tactful way.


And I just don't know how comfortable I would be telling someone that they need to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch, even if I give them specific reasons and possible alternatives, as you mentioned.

F**k if i know. I just want to help them be better filmmakers, and give them a comparitive analysis for the resources at hand. I want to be a positive dickie bird, and a fair one too... when I say I like something, or don't, i mean it. I'd rather stay silent, then kiss azz...

I agree, it is hard to tell someone, especially someone over the internet who doesn't know you from Adam, that you think their movie didn't work. That they need to re-examine their entire movie. Especially when there are other people saying how good they think it is. Why would they listen to you? But they should. Because the viewer knows what they like. Other filmmakers may tell you how wonderful the look is, but a viewer generally only sees the whole picture not the details.
Making them better filmmakers is what this is board should be all about. Not just patting people on the back for getting something done. I too want to be a positive dickie bird (I guess, not really sure what the hell that is:) ) and I also would rather stay silent than tear apart a movie that I didn't like, but I think I should change on this front if I want there to be a truly open and honest dialogue on this board. I guess I have to put my money where my keyboard is. I know this may rub people the wrong way, but I think it is the best thing to do. And I suggest more people do it. If there is a prevailing attitude that we are all aspiring to be professionals and not hobbyists, and that our criticisms should be based on that premise, then this board will become even more serious and everyone's work will improve for it.

[Matthew B. Moore]

Should these be judged as Oscar worthy (what ever that is) or Sundance worthy? That doesn't make much sense. All of the films will set the level at which the others should be judged by. Doesn't this make the most sense?

Take this idea on for a moment. Imagine that you are in competition with others in a football game or boxing. The shame and in your faceness is all over it. Sh#t is being talked. Crowds are yelling and screaming from the stands. The critisism is right in your face and you have to fight around it. Film doesn't give that option. You are done. You can only defend your work with words at that point. Your work has to stand on its own.

If you are a light weight, you don't fight heavy weights. You fight other light weights.

With that said, there are several stages to being a light weight. If you are in your first fight, you will most likely loose to some one that has been in a few. The same goes for your first film. It's like you have to get your ass kicked to know how to do it better, or to get an idea of how to win. If you have fought a few times and you know the game, then you can apply the past knowledge. You are still a light weight, but you are more deadly and effective with your punches.

Most film people are artistic people. More sensitive, more emotional, etc. Competition is a difficult thing for some people like that because their mental world is different. If you can't see this, you haven't made enough film.

There is the point that this site is about film and not competition. That is cool with me. The comp is for those who want to take each other on to drive the skill. If you are easily hurt, you might not want to play. I find them exciting, challenging, and I enjoy the challenge. With all that emotion swirling around, there is going to be a darker more critical side to it.

I think the next comp. will be better. Not because of the genre, but because this honesty has been finally opened and people can stop kissing each others asses for fear of being ousted by the rest of the DVX folks and loosing the comp because of their opinions of others work and not their film itself.

This doesn't open the gates to be a prick to people, but it does open a gate for realism and honesty.

...and yes, more hot chicks...and explosions...and violence...ooo and blood.

[Alex DePew]

Should these be judged as Oscar worthy (what ever that is) or Sundance worthy? That doesn't make much sense. All of the films will set the level at which the others should be judged by. Doesn't this make the most sense?

Take this idea on for a moment. Imagine that you are in competition with others in a football game or boxing. The shame and in your faceness is all over it. Sh#t is being talked. Crowds are yelling and screaming from the stands. The critisism is right in your face and you have to fight around it. Film doesn't give that option. You are done. You can only defend your work with words at that point. Your work has to stand on its own.

If you are a light weight, you don't fight heavy weights. You fight other light weights.

With that said, there are several stages to being a light weight. If you are in your first fight, you will most likely loose to some one that has been in a few. The same goes for your first film. It's like you have to get your ass kicked to know how to do it better, or to get an idea of how to win. If you have fought a few times and you know the game, then you can apply the past knowledge. You are still a light weight, but you are more deadly and effective with your punches.

Most film people are artistic people. More sensitive, more emotional, etc. Competition is a difficult thing for some people like that because their mental world is different. If you can't see this, you haven't made enough film.

There is the point that this site is about film and not competition. That is cool with me. The comp is for those who want to take each other on to drive the skill. If you are easily hurt, you might not want to play. I find them exciting, challenging, and I enjoy the challenge. With all that emotion swirling around, there is going to be a darker more critical side to it.

I think the next comp. will be better. Not because of the genre, but because this honesty has been finally opened and people can stop kissing each others asses for fear of being ousted by the rest of the DVX folks and loosing the comp because of their opinions of others work and not their film itself.

This doesn't open the gates to be a prick to people, but it does open a gate for realism and honesty.

...and yes, more hot chicks...and explosions...and violence...ooo and blood.

Great post. I completely agree. I'm sure you would agree that boxers who are in the amateurs, but show lack of skill and deficiencies in many aspects of the sport (can't slip punches, throw wide punches, etc...) need to be told how the pros do it and how to get there. They need to be told that if they aspire to be champ, they need to fix those things. The same is true of filmmakers. The major difference is that boxers are emotionally (and most certainly physically tougher) than filmmakers and take criticism much better. It is the nature of the game. There are people who are doing this without the competetive edge and there is nothing wrong with that. But I think we should treat all the films with the same guidelines. And if the person being judged harshly reacts poorly, and by poorly I don't mean by defending their work I mean saying things like that was hurtful or that was out of line, (unless the comments really were tactless without supporting their position) then we just stop criticizing their work and let them be. If they are happy with what they are producing and that is enough for them, they shouldn't have opinions forced upon them. There is room enough for both on this board. I am glad this discussion has been opened. I too hope that Horrorfest will garner more open, honest discussion without all the ass kissing. That being said, there is a right and a wrong way to do it and I hope people show common sense when letting the filmmakers know their opinions.

And I'm all for hot chicks and violence. As long as it serves the story. But then again what story isn't served by using hot chicks?:)

[Norm Sanders]

Envision, I know what I said because I meant what I said. there are alot of films here that feel like no effort. when you have one go over the top and other lack what do you do. I plan on watching them all today. also envision my critique was quick if you want a more longer one I will give you one if you like.

Perhaps I'm just WAY to litteral of a person, but Spidey WHICH did you mean to say? Your opening comment only gave praise to three films and ALL the others were bad. Then you come back & suddenly it's now 6 films that are great. That's why I said think before you type, so you're not having to change it up later.

A critique can be quick, but still have some kind of helpful direction. If our you felt our entire film was underlit, etc. then leave your comment(s) as is. If you feel there were specific areas that didn't meet your expectations, or you've got a helpful tip on what/how you think something can be improved, feel free.

Otherwise, no worries.




I think there is alot of people here that agree but are afraid to say it.


To me, it's just about tact & some thoughtfulness about other people, which I believe you currently lack. Sure, it may take a little extra time/effort to word things in a constructive way & allow people to feel like there's hope for improvement.




I mean call me an ass for telling you how it is... sorry. But I do plan on telling my critques today to each person.

You're not an ass for telling it like it is, but you come across as an ass because of your delivery techniques & lack of forethought to what you say (see first example).

[Norm Sanders]

Oh, and Matthew, GREAT analogy with the boxers. Thanks for that post.

[Larry Rutledge]

Let's not swing to the opposite end of the pendulum...it's ok to also say what we DID like about these films. People like to know when others enjoy something they created. But it needs to be balanced somewhere in there. If you liked something, say so...if you didn't like something, say so.... but take the extra few moments and say why you did, or didn't, like it.

If someone enters the contest, they are entering knowing they will be judged and scrutinized. It is an "assumed risk" that there will be comments/criticisms. If you can't handle the scrutiny, then stay out of the contest.

I'm also not bothered by the critiques being harsh or hard hitting, tact is nice, but I can live with tact-less responses...as long as they are thoughtful in terms of being fair and honest about your thoughts...not just, "that was crap". What was crap?

On a slightly separate note....right or wrong, what I took from some of the comments in this thread is that if you aren't already at "Hollywood" levels then you are wasting everyone's time by submitting an entry. And in further discussion about it, other comments seemed to indicate that discussion about time, budget, talent, etc were being offered as excuses for less than stellar quality. I submit these are not excuses but merely facts.

I for one am not a professional filmmaker, nor do I play one on TV :) .... I want to become one someday and am working and striving to that end. In the meantime, however, I have a family to take care of. So I can't just quit my job and sit home all day testing every function on each piece of equipment. For me the opportunity to learn, and make mistakes, comes from being challenged to complete a project. Sure, I may not fully succeed, but I also may not fully fail.

I just want to be treated fairly and not unfairly criticized, or lumped into a category of failures, especially when my work has not even been viewed.

[Isaac_Brody]

Great post Larry.

[Kholi]

Larry and Matt B-- Great posts.

Matt's right about the heavyweight and lightweight classes.

And Larry is absolutely fair in saying that... well.. he wants to be treated faiir. Everyone has to start out somewhere.

Guys, I am jawing off with you and I am [probably] the only one that's never actually made a short movie. When I lay down the cash for my next two projects, I expect to hear a lot of feedback that'll make me question why I chose to become a cliche. So, I get ya, and probably more so when I'm at that point.

To those that I might have offended by giving tactlessly harsh feedback, sorry. And to those that I simply did not give enough feedback too, sorry. I know that I went into more depth with msconoe's ninja short, why I liked and what I disliked and what didn't work. I'll try to do that with everyone.

[Kholi]

for the hunderth time i know you didnt like my movie briceman I know you told me that alot and I dont care. one person opinion see? But i took what you said into concideration but it doesnt mean my next movie will has less violence language nudity.... in fact my horror fest will probli be more. I want to go to the extremes. Each movie I make the more complex I want to make the shots. I want to make the story more complex. I learn something since the last one, make a 7 min script at least and nothing more. CPU script was 20 pages then I had to trim 20 mins out of it thas why the movie is the way it is. but in either case I knew the flaws. and when people to me I said thanks I will use this to help me. Not go: WHAT NU UH! I take each thing with concideration of where people are coming from.

Briceman I know your convictions and I know my film probli didnt fall in you watching catagory but it did with many others.

I want make those type of movies.

Envision, I know what I said because I meant what I said. there are alot of films here that feel like no effort. when you have one go over the top and other lack what do you do. I plan on watching them all today. also envision my critique was quick if you want a more longer one I will give you one if you like.


I think there is alot of people here that agree but are afraid to say it.

John Hudson I totally agree with you. After I saw texas Fortune I set my goals to compete to films like that.

talent, story and money. If you expect to compete in these things shouldnt you try to out do whats nesscessary to win? Go beyond it?

I mean call me an ass for telling you how it is... sorry. But I do plan on telling my critques today to each person.

I am behind you and Matthew. I agree with everything you say. I think, though, that you also know how to deliver tactful criticism...

Don't get me wrong. You could rip me one and I'd probably thank you for your unabashed and abrasive honesty, maybe I'm masochistic (don't quote me.) It's good to know that you have high hopes for your community peers, because if anyone hasn't noticed... you do. You expect everyone to be on the tip-top, and that's not a bad thing... but maybe you (and a few others) just need to really show a bit more class when telling it how it is.

Otherwise, I do agree with what you've been saying. Your example of Texas Fortune and how you "upped" your game is how everyone should be thinking. If you're serious about it... you need to be serious about it.

To everyone (including myself):

[Literally] Put your money where your mouth is, invest it in your product. Invest as much time as humanly possible, between work hours, sleep hours, life hours, as humanly
possible. Invest your blood, sweat, and in some cases ... tears. You guys might consider yourselves lightweights right now, but I don't think you want to remain there... right?

Not saying that you guys don't do that already, by the way.

[Larry Rutledge]

No, wait...you're still missing my point. It's not about the tactful/tactless criticism. And it's not about how much or how little you comment/criticise.

I have only been able to comment on a few of the films. I intend to comment on others as soon as I can (I do have a day job after all). But I have watched ALL of them, several times.

The issue is the treatment of the projects as garbage or a waste of someones time, when the project hasn't even been viewed. How can you make blanket comments/statements about something when you don't know anything about it?

[Brandon Rice]

Yep...

[Kholi]

No, I get what you're saying, Larry.

You're upset because Spidey didn't even watch yours and he made the comment. I already got that.

I was saying that he's right about stepping up the production.

[Larry Rutledge]

Yes, I agree...every production should be the best possible work that filmmaker can turn out. Who would disagree with that. And I don't care if he ever watches my film or not, but I do care that he makes such a wide sweeping statement when who knows what he actually watched. It's not about me or my film, it's about unfair judgement.

It's been well established he likes to be harsh and has no time/desire for tact, that's fine...but doesn't excuse him, or anyone, from accusing people of wasting everyone's time, or stating that they don't belong simply because their work is not up to a predetermined (in his mind only) level.

I think the fact that this is a jury-less entry festival then it is open to ALL, and that means those who don't know what they are doing yet as well as Spielberg if he wants to get involved. And everyone knows they are going to get judged to the same criteria and if they don't measure up, they don't win. That alone should drive the attempt at increased production.

I know I strove to create the highest production level I possibly could. I tackled things I'd never done before...new equipment, recording dialog, trying visual effects, directing multiple actors. Did my "stepped up production" measure up to what Spidey, or Norm, or Jack, or others could produce....clearly no. But it was better than anything I had done before and it was as a result of trying to attain to levels exceeding Texas Fortune or CPU. I didn't reach that level, but I was reaching for it.

The issue, in my mind, is about fair treatment for all.

[Brandon Rice]

well... all men are created equal... I get your point Larry... indeed. And I think everyone does. Like you said, its a juryless film fest. If only films that were at a certain level were accepted, we wouldn't necessarily be having this "debate". But the beauty is the fact we can have this fest, and all learn while having a friendly competition.

[Larry Rutledge]

Ok, I think I've rounded this circle enough times....I'll step back down off my soapbox, and put it away this time.

I'm not trying to stir anything up....just expressing my feelings.

Peace,
Larry

[Matt Sconce]

I know I strove to create the highest production level I possibly could. I tacked things I'd never done before...new equipment, recording dialog, trying visual effects, directing multiple actors. Did my "stepped up production" measure up to what Spidey, or Norm, or Jack, or others could produce....clearly no. But it was better than anything I had done before and it was as a result of trying to attain to levels exceeding Texas Fortune or CPU. I didn't reach that level, but I was reaching for it.


This is what I thought the point of these competitions was. Inspiring filmmakers to rise to the next level, not whipping them for not achieving another person's subjective vision of it. I know that, like Larry, We tried a ton of new things, and learned a lot through this competition. It is an amazing opportunity to grow as a film maker and for the most part, people have really helped us in that growing process through Hero-Fest. Thank you for that.

[Isaac_Brody]

I think a lot of great points have been brought up but the conversation is starting to go around in circles. How about everyone take some of these lessons and review some more Herofest films?

And maybe by the time Horrorfest comes along we can revive some of these points before people start judging films, or write up some reviewer guidelines so that filmmakers get the most from the viewers, and viewers give honest feedback that helps filmmakers.