Guerilla35, Any Updates??

[Ill Eagle]

I emailed Jonathon a few times but never got a reply, it's June and I was wondering if anybody's spoke to him or somebody at Cinemek??

[Angrius]

Same here. What's the deal J-Ho? We want some updates..it's June.:)

[helloworld]

It's definitely been a while...

[Chris Messineo]

I check the Cinemek site every day, like a kid wondering if today is Christmas. :)

Chris

[Robert Pottorff]

haha :) i use to check it, when the fourm was up - but eventual i got tired of seeing "preorders" at the top

[rawfa]

I wrote him just before NAB and he told me to keep my eyes peeled because some serious stuff was going to happen in the weeks to come. I love cinemeks' adapter so much. I really hope Jonathan comes back from the ashes at once. I'm still number 87 on the waiting list. I only hope that when the adapter is finaly released the price won't change.

[wesley]

i'm checking the site for updates every week as well :D
haven't been able to pre-order or something so i'm not on the waiting list. so i probably won't be able to get one anytime soon

[Ill Eagle]

Uppin...........

[Angrius]

This is ridiculous. All people want is a general update.

[hienben]

The whole thing is a shambles. First of all we were told the servers were down. Now they are back up there is no forum, no updates, no anything. It's a real shame because it looks like an excellent adapter. I'm kicking myself now for not ordering a pre-production unit.

[Policar]

The preproduction units aren't all they're cracked up to be. There's a lot of variation in them, apparently: some have minor ghosting (very very minor), and mine has a ton of static grain quite noticeable at f2 and unusable at f4.

The achromat is phenomenal, though and otherwise I am very happy with it. If there is a final version, it should be good, but the beta unit, while VERY impressive, is far from production-ready.

[hienben]

One other thing that bothers me is that all the tests, screenshots and samples were made using a static system. Now after taking preorders they changed the design to a rotating system. So people are on a waiting list for a product that hasn't even been tested.

I hope I get proved wrong on all this because I have been looking forward to the G35 as much as anyone else. It just seems that it's all been handled so badly.

[Policar]

I agree the distribution aspects have been handled terribly, but I think the product design is smart. It needs a moving screen; I just hope it's well implemented in the final release. Send me a PM and I can send you some more footage if you want, by the way.

[Ill Eagle]

Well, I got an e-mail from the man J.Houser himself. He said they should be shipping the first 50 units in July.........

There was more info but I'm not sure if he wants certain things public.........

[RichardVClark]

good deal!

[Chris Messineo]

I think Cinemek is being smart by not saying anything knew until they have something definite to announce.

Have played briefly with the beta of the g35, if whatever he comes up with is as good as that, then I am sold.

Chris #21

[Ill Eagle]

I think Cinemek is being smart by not saying anything knew until they have something definite to announce.

Have played briefly with the beta of the g35, if whatever he comes up with is as good as that, then I am sold.

Chris #21

I'm #22:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[RichardVClark]

I think I'm (lucky) number 49

[Ill Eagle]

I think I'm (lucky) number 49

You were 2 & 1/2 seconds from being #58...........

[Angrius]

Well, I got an e-mail from the man J.Houser himself. He said they should be shipping the first 50 units in July.........

There was more info but I'm not sure if he wants certain things public.........

Why is it everytime there is a reply, the shipping date gets pushed back another month? I predict the g35 will be released in 2009. Maybe.

[RichardVClark]

We should ban all updates. All they do is get my hopes up, then the date passes and I get pissed.

[Jarred Land]

We should ban all updates. All they do is get my hopes up, then the date passes and I get pissed.

its seems like the new standard in the video industry unfortunately.

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

I just wish they had the forums up on their site. I think some people who were getting too impatient and hostile ruined it for everyone...ah well, at least we've got dvxuser!

-Tom (#1)

[rawfa]

You're the number one on the line, right Tjohara99? Somebody here at the forum receive an email from Jonathan saying the first 50 units would ship NOW in july. Did you receive any update that would confirm this? Man, I want my g%#* G35!

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

You're the number one on the line, right Tjohara99? Somebody here at the forum receive an email from Jonathan saying the first 50 units would ship NOW in july. Did you receive any update that would confirm this? Man, I want my g%#* G35!


hm, I didn't get any emails. yeah, i'm first in line. I hope I still have money left when this thing comes out.

[Ill Eagle]

It was an automated reply sent to people who emailed Jon. Like 5 different people got the same reply WORD FOR WORD.......

I still have faith but if July comes and goes with no Guerilla35, well.......:(

[rawfa]

hm, I didn't get any emails. yeah, i'm first in line. I hope I still have money left when this thing comes out.


Don't worry...if you don't have the money I can always do you a favor and take your place in line. But only because we're friends ;-)

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

Don't worry...if you don't have the money I can always do you a favor and take your place in line. But only because we're friends ;-)


what place in line are you?

[rawfa]

#87...that is...if ther's still a line...

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

haha, yeah man, if I don't have the money when the time comes, I'll trade places with you.

[rawfa]

haha, yeah man, if I don't have the money when the time comes, I'll trade places with you.


Can I have that signed?...in blood? :)

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

Can I have that signed?...in blood? :)


how about I hold everyone here as an eyewitness?

I'm too much of a pansy to sign in blood :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[Robert Pottorff]

Robert Pottorff - Witness to the contract described above.

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

Robert Pottorff - Witness to the contract described above.


uh oh...it's official Rawfa!

That means I better get a job before the G35 comes out! :evil:

[rawfa]

Oh, man! I feel like I just joined the marines!

[rawfa]

Oh cinemek, where art thou?

[helloworld]

Thou hast vanished.

they'll be back soon though im sure.

[delaro]

maybe they can just make an update now. just telling us what's going on. if there is any chance to get one in 2006.
some people here are waiting for more than one year.
why don t they simply sell the beta version? the best footages i've seen with a 35 adapter were made with a beta g35.

[Boomerang]

I still check the site every other day..... how sad.

I have an iFocus for my DVX and it works great, but my poor HVX needs some SDOF lovin.

[delaro]

how did you get the ifocus?? it seems to be great. it reminds me the beta g35.
are you a beta tester or is it on sale? i cant find any information on their website. what is the price?

[bgundu]

Jonathan from Cinemek emailed me and said he's unable to confirm when he'll be shipping the adapter. He states he still needs to work out some kinks. Still... this could be sooner or later.

[delaro]

that s some news! i'll still buy the guerilla when it will be released but i'm going to buy something else before that. the letus is really grainy. the m2 gives a dreamy look. i love the ifocus footages i ve seen. does anybody know where i can find some uncompressed ifocus footages?

[Robert Pottorff]

I can help out :) but my camera is pretty terrible i think PaPa just got his adapter too - just see if he will send you some footage. (far better than my sony handycam could produce :) )

[Ill Eagle]

I think if people want a static solution like the Guerilla35 should seriously think about getting an iFocus from Twocik because the footage and grabs seen from this adapter remind me of the BETA Guerilla35, he seriously has a winning adapter. And the grabs are usually just test footage so I can't wait til someone uses it for their movie so they can really put it to test.

[Ill Eagle]

..........

[Thomas J. O'Hara]

I hope the G35 isn't ready for at least a couple more months...I already spent all my G35 money on rent!

[delaro]

the ifocus is nice but it seems that you have to choose the exact lens you will use with it when purchasing. i need something with is adaptable to lenses sd, hd, ..... i can t put that price for a single specific lens to use.

[Ill Eagle]

I didn't know that about the iFocus.......that's strange, but I guess I never noticed it had no mount.......

[bobharlow]

you can change the lenses on the ifocus. you just have to choose the type of mount when you order (like most adapters) then you can put whatever lens you like on it that fits the mount....

I think you usually order it with a lens so that the guy that makes them can make sure it is callibrated for that type of lens mount.

[delaro]

ok, i just read again the mail from the ifocus guy. he gave examples of prices with different konica lenses (very different prices). and asked me what fstop, what milimeter, what kind of lens i wanted the adapter for. and in the end faq:"Is the ifocus interchangeable?""Yes, I just need the lens to calibrate the focal length".
i misunderstood. he's probably selling lenses with the adapter. so i firstly thought he was adapting the ifocus to a specific lens.
it's still a very very nice adapter

[dan]

I have two gorgeous geared primes1,4/50mm for the first and second sharp eyes and minds to find out something unusual in this clip:
http://www.stedeford.com/dvx100picturequality.html
Pay attention to a segment of four seconds, from 3:46 to 3:50 in the movie (the wide shoot from the hallway), spell out what you think may be wrong with that footage and if you see what I see and spell out the cause, my lenses are on the way to you. Third, fourth and fifth to confirm will also receive a free focus gear each (shipping on me!).

I leave it with you (no clues from me, so don't ask). Good luck.

[min lee]

I don't suppose its the little bit of vignetting on the bottom left corner or the flickering of the light on the left side, is it?

[Ed Kishel]

my guess is the vibrating GG is slipping or stuck (there is a speck of grain thats caught on the surface that seems to be moving clockwise)- and the lower left side of the frame seems to be "sliding" to the right and and I think this is causing a dark spot that forms in the very corner. Much more static grain seems to visible.

(Whats most unusual is how we are more concerned with the image than the subject matter in those 5 seconds :evil: )

[ASG]

It's a static GG (G35 beta), there's a fair amount of grain visible throughout on bright surfaces like the sky or the sheets. The flicker is the most obvious problem which is caused by slowing an interlaced clip to 50% and rendering out interpolated progressive. May also be a conflict between flourescent lighting at 50Hz and the shutter speed used. There's a fair hotspot, if not down to condensor set up may be caused by a wide angle lens (they tend to have a smaller aperture) where the light hits the GG at an angle causing grain shadow.

[Ed Kishel]

OR MAYBE....

maybe they were lighting the left wall with some sort of sodium vapor lamp that had a flash rate that messes with the RPMs of a spinning GG?

OR MAYBE....

one side of the vibrating GG is static while the other side is still vibrating- it looked like the right wall had static grain while the left didnt.

I dont think its a static adapter. In anycase- the film looked great and I gotta work tommorow. Time for sleepytime :) :)

[ASG]

It's the Guerilla 35 beta unit, which is static. Macgregor has posted many of his videos using it, including this one. And the flicker is down to the 50% render to progressive. It appears in an outdoor shot as well (Macgregor mentioned the problem on DVinfo a while back).

[twocik23]

I'm seeing a blue tinted flicking of the left side and a little flicking on the right, vignetting in the left bottom corner and also a piece of dust/spot toward the left bottom corner.

[Dennis Wood]

Well, that nasty grain mask is exactly what I've been working so hard to get rid of with the new Brevis f1.4 to f4 match diffuser options :-)

[delaro]

it's the autofocus which was on. i had the same flickering problem the first day with a dvx100 and, since, i'm always on manual focusing and everything is fine. the autofocus can't choose between the room and the wall. well, just my assumption. :-)

[wesley]

I don't suppose its the little bit of vignetting on the bottom left corner or the flickering of the light on the left side, is it?

thats the only thing i'm seeing. but my monitor screen is always dirty so :D

[delaro]

if i'm following my autofocus assumption, it can mean that macgregor didn't put the g35 adapter on the cam that day. which can perhaps be confirmed by the sharpness of the image from one side of the room to the other. do we have to guess why he forgot his adapter this day? :-)

well, maybe they just get one adapter and shot this one with a second camera .....


l.d.
www.supralumen.com
www.tristefin.com

[ASG]

The adapter is definitely on in that shot, you can still see the grain and that spec of dust.

Looks to me like the reason the spec of dust and the grain/vignette in the corner moves is because the OIS was switched on... or the adapter is flexing cos it's not on rails (as seen in the BHS shot)... Did I win Dan? :)

[bgundu]

He definitely left the OIS on. I remember reading it along time ago.

[delaro]

The adapter is definitely on in that shot, you can still see the grain and that spec of dust.

just using some after effects plugins to mimic the look of the rest of the movie, it is not the basics of cinema? :-)

[mike dawson]

Thats right as he said in a post before. "macgregor didn't put the g35 adapter on the cam that day" "forgot it in the car"

[delaro]

nobody else is confirming? ......

[dan]

I have finished wrapping the lenses and gears:love4: yet I have no one to ask for an address:( but you guys are getting there faster than I thought.:)
A few got it right (the "magic word" was spelled:love4: ) but the explanation of the phenomenon is still missing from a complete answer:( .
No further clues from me but here is what I would expect as satisfactory:

>>>> Giving the movie was shoot in such'n'such country, the lights must have been such'n-such.
Now, the movie was shoot using a DVX100A for a ...... intended distribution. That means the camera settings must have been such'n-such. Under those circumstances, this'n-that is not possible, therefore it mush have been THIS (as the only choice left)
If you look at this'n-that you see (or you don't see!) this'n-that. How come? How is it possible to get this'n-that and not get this'n-that? And if this'sthat happens, why doens't it happen here'n-there?
Well, then it must have been THIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiS AND THAaaaaaaaaaaaaT then !
My logic is undeniable:) <<<<<<

or anything similar to the above.

Clear your thoughts of any and all the smoke and mirrors you have come across over the last year:badputer: . Forget what you heard, read or being feed about anything:badputer: , look at the clip and spell out what you SEE.

Those supporting one or another theory (myself included) should be able to duplicate the effect (or indicate how that effect can be duplicated) and provide samples or instruct others (having the means to duplicate the effect) how to achieve it. I will take nobody's words for granted (nor should you take mine). I am just as intrigued as you are (leave my wild guess aside) but this time I am eager hear the answer from you:love4: .

[delaro]

empty

[insanityfw]

I think a contest like this is a great idea Dan...and fun.

Maybe since you're giving away such nice prizes you should start a new Post for this and just for this.

I'm interested to see what the answer is that you're looking for.

I still need to get some of those gorgeous gears from you.

I'm away from my computer off and on this morning, but maybe a modertator will have a way to move some of the posts from this thread to a new thread. Anybody know if this is possible?????

Best,

J.

[delaro]

the movie was shot in europe i think. to recreate the daylight in the room they used some fluos.
we have a big depth of field in this shot, and we shouldn't because if the lighting is the same as in the other shoots we should have a very little depth of field in all that distance (considering the 35 adapter).
to have this big depth of view we need to have a little aperture and to compensate we put our shutter speed at a slower speed (1/25 for example) and the flickering appears because of the fluos frequency (well it's an example as i dont know if macgregor was using a pal or ntsc dvx100, i dont know in what country it was shot and i don't know the rules of the scienfest, so maybe it must be delivered in ntsc so he used 1/60 and then had a frequency problem if he was in a european country, ......., but i don't have all the infos).

[mike dawson]

there is a macro shot without the adapter for the one shot maybe even shot on the fx1e

[dan]

I'm interested to see what the answer is that you're looking for.
I am equally interested to hear (other than mine) opinions and comments. I may or may not have "the answer" (I don't know it all) but if the community arrives to a common conclusion on this issue, than THAT must be the answer. This should be fun anyway.
As for the gear,... I can slip you one (outside the contest) as "promotional material".

[mike dawson]

hmi lights for the indoor shoots. You can get the same kind on dof without the adapter by zooming in and wide opon iris like a long lens shot.

[delaro]

i don't really see the problem in fact :) just the depth of field (which isn't a problem) and the flickering .....
well ..... wait ..... maybe something in fact

[mike dawson]

I see a bit of flicker

[delaro]

less highlights on the bodies compared to the before and after shoots

[delaro]

the autofocus is on and try to focus on the achromat, so the grain appears a lot more.

[ASG]

>>>> Giving the movie was shoot in such'n'such country, the lights must have been such'n-such.
Now, the movie was shoot using a DVX100A for a ...... intended distribution. That means the camera settings must have been such'n-such. Under those circumstances, this'n-that is not possible, therefore it mush have been THIS (as the only choice left)
If you look at this'n-that you see (or you don't see!) this'n-that. How come? How is it possible to get this'n-that and not get this'n-that? And if this'sthat happens, why doens't it happen here'n-there?
Well, then it must have been THIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiS AND THAaaaaaaaaaaaaT then !
My logic is undeniable:) <<<<<<
.


It was shot in Madrid and Lanzarote both 240V 50Hz power supply, PAL, 25fps. So if it was shot 25p on the DVX why isn't there frame blending on the slomo. Answer the slomo stuff was shot 50i slowed to 50% to split the fields into frames, rendered out progressive. As for the flicker it appears in some of the slomo shots. If the shutter speed wasn't a multiple of 50 then you will get flickering caused by the difference in frequency with fluoro lights, but there's flicker on the outdoor shot as well. The flicker is caused by slowing the 50i to 50% and then doing an interpolate deinterlace. It's a problem I keep running into, it's caused by the camera but not sure how.

[delaro]

It was shot in Madrid and Lanzarote both 240V 50Hz power supply, PAL, 25fps. So if it was shot 25p on the DVX why isn't there frame blending on the slomo. Answer the slomo stuff was shot 50i slowed to 50% to split the fields into frames, rendered out progressive. As for the flicker it appears in some of the slomo shots. If the shutter speed wasn't a multiple of 50 then you will get flickering caused by the difference in frequency with fluoro lights, but there's flicker on the outdoor shot as well. The flicker is caused by slowing the 50i to 50% and then doing an interpolate deinterlace. It's a problem I keep running into, it's caused by the camera but not sure how.

it seems a nice explanation.

[dan]

Should we wait another day or two? should I throw my 2c? (hint only!) or should I ask another question? what would you prefer?

[delaro]

maybe the flickering is linked to the amount of grain of the adapter. the walls are darker than the room, the grain is appearing more easily on this part.and the compression is messing there.

[delaro]

Should we wait another day or two? should I throw my 2c? (hint only!) or should I ask another question? what would you prefer?

how far are we from your own explanation? =-)

[mike dawson]

If its the NTSC version camera it would flick uder the lights in europe

[dan]

my explanation... yours... anyone else.... should be supported by a practical test, or, (if that would be impractical) by a solid theory that does not need testing and unanimously accepted to become "the explanation". This is the only way to keep the contest fair to all and rule out errors, don't you think?

[delaro]

ok i shot this example: http://www.supralumen.com/flickering (look at the corner of the table on the left)
it's some european fluos. a dvx100 pal. and the same flickering. but the autofocus is on. nothing happens when it s off.
it must be the difference of frequency between the fluo and the autofocus seeking speed. a bright area, a darker one and it happens.

[mike dawson]

macgregor dose have a dvx100ae aka the pal version

[insanityfw]

Dan, I would keep it going for a while. Let some more people find there way here.

The prizes are great and worth waiting for. I really like some of the ideas that have been listed. I still haven't been able to see the clip on anything more than my 12" laptop screen, but if I were to guess I would say it's paranormal activity or something to do with being near true magnetic North. :)

I can't wait to get my gears. Thanks. :)

Good luck everyone.

[mike dawson]

moving gg? or VINGNETTING in the left coners like the the ois is on or Maybe they zoomed out a bit?

[Dennis Wood]

I got Dan, I got it! I've been looking at what I see and I'm pretty sure they weren't practising safe sex :-0 As for reproducing that, I'm not sure the world is ready to see me replicating the shot.

Yer a sharp dude Andy!

[mike dawson]

The movie was shoot using a DVX100A for a ...... FOR SCI FI CONTEST intended distribution. That means the camera settings must have been such'n-such 24P. Under those circumstances, OF PAL OR OTHERE CAMERA LIKE THE FX1 this'n-that is not possible, therefore it mush have been 25p or 50i (as the only choice left)

[dan]

As for reproducing that, I'm not sure the world is ready to see me replicating the shot.

Well.... don't be so hard on yourself, you could be behind the camera (for a change)

On a general note, I think we have one winner (imo). To keep it fun, educational and entertaining, should I provide the first winner with my guess and still allow him to be in the game, providing contra arguments to all those do not suit his view, without letting anyone else know who he is and what he knows?
Or should I not reveal the winner? (not even to himself) so he will keep supporting his POV regardless?

Or... should I just send him the lens (without my "2c" but with compliments)?

What do you guys think? Remember... there is still one more lens and three gears left. And they all have to leave. Education should be fair, fun and free, right?
Yeah right!

[tlorenzo]

It's definately the OIS/autofocus messing up!

[ASG]

I think you should reveal the winner and come up with another contest for the other prizes :)

[twocik23]

Hi Dan,

How's it going?

I agree with ASG, this is very fun!!


Like the other guys said, you should start your own thread.

[delaro]

yeah i agree with ASG!! and also agree for a "dan special contest thread"!

[dan]

OK now, but hear this: what if?..... what I think to be the cause (and based on that belief choose the winner) but most of you do not agree with the cause and the decision? I don't look good and definitely not fair. The contest looses popularity and definitely you don't learn too much in the process.

I think we should all agree that "this'n-that" IS the only way to get "this'n-that" and only then move on to a new thread. The reasoning must come from you.
Agree?
Based on how many readers this board has, we should wait and listern to other opinions as well (imo, lol)

[mike dawson]

lets keep this G35 thread going and maybe the G35 will come out sooner....??

[rawfa]

Word, Mike. Word.

[ASG]

If the problem we are discussing is the flicker, I reckon it's definitely caused by doing 50% speed on 50i, here's what Macgregor himself had to say about it on DVinfo, albeit with HDV:

"I am starting to get upset. Everytime i make a slow motion from HDV 50i to 50% speed, some parts of image start to flicker.
Does anyone notice this?

Here is an extreme example of the problem. Sometimes you dont see the issue. Sometimes footage becames unusable.
How can we fix this? Why is it produced?

www.neotokio.org/flicker.mov (http://www.neotokio.org/flicker.mov)

thanks!"

and:

"The shutter speed is 1/100.
Remember this is recorded at 50i because i am in a PAL country.

Slow motion has been done in Vegas, setting speed at 50% so from each HDV field you get a full rame. At SD resolution i get very decent images.
However some parts of the image sometimes flicker, speacilly with some colors. Skin tones suffer the most. Si i guess it has something to do with color compression.

This is an example of medium flicker. Look at the right part of the girls´face and her shoulder. there is flickering there and it is not a problem of QUicktime sorenson compresion.

http://www.neotokio.org/ellas.mov (http://www.neotokio.org/ellas.mov)"

and:

"Quick reply:
I use 1/100 because it is the way to go as a film camera would do.
The flicker is not a couse of artificial light. both clips have sun light.

The slow motion is done by setting the playback rate at 0,5. It is the same as if i would apply a velocity envelope and set it to 50%.

Then i render a 25p video. It doesnt matter wather it is full res, wmv, avi, mpeg, the same issue appears always even in the preview window.

There is no need to apply any deinterlace method. Vegas does the interpolation from each field atomatically.

I´ve done this with footage from DVX100e, xl1, pd150, betacam and DVcam and never had any problems."

[dan]

It was shot in Madrid and Lanzarote both 240V 50Hz power supply, PAL, 25fps. So if it was shot 25p on the DVX why isn't there frame blending on the slomo...



If the problem we are discussing is the flicker, I reckon it's definitely caused by doing 50% speed on 50i, here's what Macgregor himself had to say about it on DVinfo, albeit with HDV:

"I am starting to get upset. Everytime i make a slow motion from HDV 50i to 50% speed, some parts of image start to flicker..

Slow motion has been done in Vegas, setting speed at 50% so from each HDV field you get a full rame. At SD resolution i get very decent images.

I´ve done this with footage from DVX100e, xl1, pd150, betacam and DVcam and never had any problems."

make up your minds guys, you are postings contradicting statements;
Was it shoot on DVX100e or an HDV camera?
I allways knew it was DVX, now I see talks about HDV.
What was it?

[delaro]

macgregor always stated that similo was shot with the pal dvx100.
it was shot in europe.
so everything is fine with the products compatibility (50hz)
he shot in 25p. but for slowmo he's using the 50i method (not timewarp or anyother interpolating plugin).

right?

[dan]

macgregor always stated that similo was shot with the pal dvx100.
it was shot in europe.
so everything is fine with the products compatibility (50hz)
he shot in 25p. but for slowmo he's using the 50i method (not timewarp or anyother interpolating plugin).

Anyone has any problems with the above statement? True or false?
The credits show it was shoot in Madrid and (another city) both in the 50Hz zone.

Side note:
(The G35 team must enjoy this popularity contest tremeduosly to keep aside without one single comment (not even from the originators of this thread).
Ehh...too bad they don't want to play with us... )

[mike dawson]

its true that macgregor said that.

[Ill Eagle]

It's amazing what this thread has turned in to.............

Maybe Jonathon will see the title of the thread, pages and how many replies and think it's all for the Guerilla35 and start shipping them.......

[delaro]

this shoot is slowmo.
we can notice some flickering on both sides. some vigneting slowly appearing in the lower corners. some black dots in the lower left side which are moving.
it looks like a dezooming .... or something moving (a little bit upward maybe).

[dan]

Thanks Ill Eagle (did you watch the clip? any comments on the subject?)
So far, it looks like the word "flicker" and flickering has popped up too many times to ignore.
Has anyone any doubts about its existance in the clip?
Delaro brings up a very good point (very good observation) but not a real explanation (just a guess)

[delaro]

maybe it s because the g35 doesn't have any rods, and when macgregor shot this scene he was trying to focus and bended the adapter a bit with the focusing hand. so we can see everything going upward and the dots and the grain are disappearing in the same time with the good focusing.

[delaro]

and i noticed that this flickering can be found in a lot of shoots in this movie. at 3:35 for example around the neck and the face, and the next shoot, .......
maybe it's just the compression which is messing with the grain of the adapter. and when there is a specific amount and mix of light, blur and grain the flickering appears.

[delaro]

if you're looking the movie between 1:43 and 1:50 i'm pretty sure this has been shot without the adapter (macgregor said that he forgot it one day). no grain, great depth of field,very sharp. if we compare this one with the one around 2:10 (with the adapter) and the one around 2:16 for example (adapter too) we really notice the flickering on the girl when macgregor used the adapter. but not on the part without the g35. so that would mean that its not a problem of fluos frequency.

[dan]

and i noticed that this flickering can be found in a lot of shoots in this movie. at 3:35 for example around the neck and the face, and the next shoot, .......
maybe it's the compression which is messing with the grain of the adapter. and when there is a specific amount and mix of light, blur and grain the flickering appears.
So, you found other spots in the movie with the same flicker, hey? (I must watch it again)
Nothing outside? On the road? (the sky, the road itself?)
I don't have a DVX, HVX nor any other recent cameras (except a SI sample from Ari) and I don't remember how they behave (or don't!).
I did used them all for some time but I am not an expert with any of them (I still have some footage from both but is soooo old).
How about we ask an expert in this cameras to share his view? Barry? What do you think could cause that annoying flicker?

[delaro]

look at 4:18 on the right side. shot outside on the road.look at the girl cloth. same color, this dark blueish white, as the wall. same flickering.

at 2:22, lot of flickering in the sky.
its definitly not the frequency of the fluos and not the autofocus.

[delaro]

it's just that the adapter grain is not visible on the very bright and very dark areas of the image. but a white wall a little dark shows it a lot, and then the compression creates the flickering.
it's very noticeable on the girl skin too on some shoots.

ok it's 6.30am in paris. time to sleep. :-)

[mike dawson]

unleash the g35

[ASG]

it's just that the adapter grain is not visible on the very bright and very dark areas of the image. but a white wall a little dark shows it a lot, and then the compression creates the flickering.
it's very noticeable on the girl skin too on some shoots.

ok it's 6.30am in paris. time to sleep. :-)

Macgregor said that it's not the compression. I get it on my GS400from time to time (with or without adapter), in daylight shots - when you slow interlaced to 50% one frame is created from the even interlaced lines plus odd lines averaged from the two either side, then the next from the odd lines plus even lines averaged, and it's like the frame created using the odd lines is slightly blurred compared to the one from the even lines, which creates the flicker. It's either the way the camera captures the odd vs even lines, or it's the interpolate deinterlace, or both.

I agree it looks like no adapter at 1.43.

[twocik23]

I'm also seeing 2:15 - 2:20 (on the bed). If you watch the socket or whatever it is over her head, go from in focus to out of focus really quick, there's definitely no adapter used in this part. Or I'm really tired and my eyes are playing tricks on me from watching this clip over and over.

[delaro]

Macgregor said that it's not the compression. I get it on my GS400from time to time (with or without adapter), in daylight shots - when you slow interlaced to 50% one frame is created from the even interlaced lines plus odd lines averaged from the two either side, then the next from the odd lines plus even lines averaged, and it's like the frame created using the odd lines is slightly blurred compared to the one from the even lines, which creates the flicker. It's either the way the camera captures the odd vs even lines, or it's the interpolate deinterlace, or both.

I've even tried rendering a clip out twice interpolated deinterlace, once as upper field first, once as lower field first, then shuffle alternate frames from the two clips to slow it to 50%, and the flicker is still there, so I think it's an in camera thing.

I agree it looks like no adapter at 1.43.

so yes, if macgregor has the same result with the uncompressed footage it must be the slowmo with the interlaced thing.

[delaro]

I'm also seeing 2:15 - 2:20 (on the bed). If you watch the socket or whatever it is over her head, go from in focus to out of focus really quick, there's definitely no adapter used in this part. Or I'm really tired and my eyes are playing tricks on me from watching this clip over and over.

at 2:15 the glass grain is noticeable.

[mike dawson]

VINGNETTING encroaching in the left corners like the ois is on or Maybe they zoomed out a bit.

anyone going to Back me up?

[dan]

Rest assured, help is on the way. I PM-ed Barry (I don't think he noticed the thread) and he should be able to help us. Here it is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Barry,
I have noticed something unusual in Similo and I posted here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=60437&page=6
Although many people have (or have used) the DVX camera, none of the assumptions could be explained or reproduced (imo) to match the unusual artifacts from that movie.
Do you mind to have a look at it and give us your opinion, please?
I am asking you as an expert with DVX, HVX being confident you should be able to see and identify the cause or at least point out what "can not be" out of all speculations.
Regards,
Dan Diaconu.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Barry_Green]

I took a brief look at it, and I don't know exactly what it is either. I would initially have thought it had something to do with the adapter, because the flickering pattern seems to be somewhat round in shape, but it being a beta G35 would lend me to think that the adapter would have little or nothing to do with it. A static adapter wouldn't have a rotating ground glass, although a static adapter stopped down too far would cause the 'hot spot' syndrome of the center of the frame being brighter and the edges being darker in a circular pattern (not "vignetting" per se, as that's usually the frame actually being cut off, but this is related to vignetting). And we're definitely seeing that here.

But why should it flicker? Three potential scenarios suggest themselves:

1) it's the famous Premiere 1.5 flickering highlights bug? Did he use Premiere?

2) it could maybe be related to slowing down the footage for slow-mo, if data was leaping from one field to the other, but frankly that shouldn't happen on a white wall. Unless, as has been suggested, that it's due to the grain being visible on the edges of the adapter, and it's the grain that's leaping from field to field, causing the perception of flicker? But I doubt it.

3) My guess would be that if it's not caused by Premiere 1.5, then he had auto knee on. The auto knee can cause exactly this type of flickering on highlights, and a white wall would qualify.

This assumes that he's using a 50Hz camera with appropriate 50Hz lights; if he shot with 60Hz lights and a 50Hz camera, and then slowed that footage down by 50% in post, that could cause a similar circumstance, but I would assume from his general expertise that he wouldn't have committed such an obvious mistake. Whereas the auto knee is biting people left and right, and it's hidden in the menus so I expect that it's the more likely culprit.

[filmmaker1977]

I took a brief look at it, and I don't know exactly what it is either. I would initially have thought it had something to do with the adapter, because the flickering pattern seems to be somewhat round in shape, but it being a beta G35 would lend me to think that the adapter would have little or nothing to do with it. A static adapter wouldn't have a rotating ground glass, although a static adapter stopped down too far would cause the 'hot spot' syndrome of the center of the frame being brighter and the edges being darker in a circular pattern (not "vignetting" per se, as that's usually the frame actually being cut off, but this is related to vignetting). And we're definitely seeing that here.

But why should it flicker? Three potential scenarios suggest themselves:

1) it's the famous Premiere 1.5 flickering highlights bug? Did he use Premiere?

2) it could maybe be related to slowing down the footage for slow-mo, if data was leaping from one field to the other, but frankly that shouldn't happen on a white wall. Unless, as has been suggested, that it's due to the grain being visible on the edges of the adapter, and it's the grain that's leaping from field to field, causing the perception of flicker? But I doubt it.

3) My guess would be that if it's not caused by Premiere 1.5, then he had auto knee on. The auto knee can cause exactly this type of flickering on highlights, and a white wall would qualify.

This assumes that he's using a 50Hz camera with appropriate 50Hz lights; if he shot with 60Hz lights and a 50Hz camera, and then slowed that footage down by 50% in post, that could cause a similar circumstance, but I would assume from his general expertise that he wouldn't have committed such an obvious mistake. Whereas the auto knee is biting people left and right, and it's hidden in the menus so I expect that it's the more likely culprit.
Rest assured, help is on the way. I PM-ed Barry (I don't think he noticed the thread) and he should be able to help us. Here it is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Barry,
I have noticed something unusual in Similo and I posted here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=60437&page=6
Although many people have (or have used) the DVX camera, none of the assumptions could be explained or reproduced (imo) to match the unusual artifacts from that movie.
Do you mind to have a look at it and give us your opinion, please?
I am asking you as an expert with DVX, HVX being confident you should be able to see and identify the cause or at least point out what "can not be" out of all speculations.
Regards,
Dan Diaconu.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
mac/Miguel?

[mike dawson]

Moving ground glass as it looks like its curves and we all know that can cause all of the above flickering ect.



but not if it was THE G35 we all know

[dan]

It was shot in Madrid and Lanzarote both 240V 50Hz power supply, PAL, 25fps.


If he shot with 60Hz lights and a 50Hz camera, and then slowed that footage down by 50% in post, that could cause a similar circumstance, but I would assume from his general expertise that he wouldn't have committed such an obvious mistake
The end credits state it was shoot in Madrid, (a 50HZ zone). Where would one find 60HZ power in Madrid anyway? Is using a 60HZ power supply a "realistic scenario" (assuming you could find one in Madrid) ? Let's just say they found (and used) a 60 HZ power source.

How come in the room there is no flicker and outside (on the walls) there IS ! ( I am talking about the wide shoot from the hallway) Did they use 50HZ inside and 60Hz on the hallway in this shoot?

Is this a “realistic” possibility?
Let's just say they did (regardless how silly it may sound to some)
Did they switch from 50Hz lights inside/60Hz outside (on the wide) to 60Hz inside for the close-ups?

Is this a realistic scenario?
Let's just say they did go through all this trouble (don't make a bit of sense to me, but hey... film makers are by definition free spirits) and shooting “that kind of footage” may have lead to.... hmmm let's say “un-orthodox decisions” in regards to the power supply.

Well then, this means that I (or anyone else) should be able to get the same effect under the same circumstances, right? (I don't think I can though)

But that still does not explain the flicker outside (on the road) unrelated to artificial >>light<< (changed by me 7 hours latter from <<power>>).
Further; there is a circular moving specs of dust hard to ignore (one in the left bottom corner) moving "in sink" with the flicker.

Perhaps we should define first (and agree) on what is flicker?
imo, flicker is a variation in brightness. Some frames are brighter than others.

But this specific flicker has a "unique" look (to me). It looks like the corners of the frames show more flicker than the center. Further; old movies (hand crancked) do flicker, but that flicker is different. That flicker is NOT periodic, it could happen three times a second and then nothing for one second and... is EVEN for the whole frame (the whole frame got exposed more/or less\ than the average.
As opposed to this flicker which seems very consistent speed wise (but obviously out of sink with the frame rate of the camera)
Post your pro/cons please with any of the above (step by step). I will wait for a white flag before I give more hints.

[ASG]

I think we can discount the power source since it's on outside shots and I've got it myself on outside shots. Barry Green's reply gave me an idea - what if it's down to video noise, worse in low light areas? It's just an idea but when you interpolate to create every other line maybe it's the nature of averaging where there's video noise that creates the flicker.

I'm convinced the flicker is caused by the deinterlacing somehow, it looks like it's flickering in sync with 25fps, i.e. every other frame is brighter.

The moving dust is either OIS left on or flexing of the adapter or cam (BTS shot shows no rails were used). From memory I wouldn't say the clip was long enough to say the dust was in sync with the flicker, I think they are unrelated. If it's OIS then as long as the camera is moving the OIS will amplify the movement because it corrects the flipped image in the wrong direction.

[Ill Eagle]

I GOT IT!!!!!!!

Somebody accidently got just a pinch of their nail in the frame and it's confusing the lens OIS as to what is to be focused on. WOO HOO!!!!!!!

Dan, PM me for my address for those Lenses, you said a 1.4 50mm, right??

*Dodges Tomatoes*

[delaro]

Barry Green's reply gave me an idea - what if it's down to video noise, worse in low light areas?

we already discussed that before. i'm pretty sure the video noise and adapter grain mixed with the 50i slowmo are linked to the flickering. when you look at the shoot where macgregor forgot the adapter (1:43), which had also been slowed down, there should be the same flickering if it was not linked to the adapter on. the flickering is almost in every adapter shot if you look carefully. inside, outside. not in the car. the car shoot is the only one which is not slowed down. and the adapter is on.
so it's the slowmo process which creates the flickering.

[ASG]

Ok enough speculation, here’s one of my own examples. It’s got nothing to do with the adapter, except maybe the light loss means you need gain hence more noise with the adapter.

http://files.filefront.com/flickerwmv/;5266241;;/fileinfo.html
(click continue to filefront)

An interlaced clip shot on a GS400 (no auto knee) slowed to 50% in vegas with smart resample so it does an interpolate deinterlace, compared to 50% speed with field double deinterlace done in virtualdub (I’m on dial up so I had to compress). I applied an extreme colour curve to emphasize the flicker. Look at the tree on the left. In the field doubling the noise and compression look worse but it’s not flickering like the interpolation does.

If I render the clip at 100% speed with interpolate it doesn’t flicker. Now here's something weird - if I render two clips at 100% speed one as upper field first with interpolate, one lower first with interpolate, then make a clip by alternating the frames from the two clips manually to get 50% speed, it doesn't flicker!!!

The flicker is caused by the way vegas renders at 50% speed with smart resample and interpolate deinterlace.

[ASG]

Same shot better example:

http://files.filefront.com/flicker2wmv/;5268512;;/fileinfo.html

First clip is 50% speed rendered with interpolate deinterlace and force resample - flickers.

Second clip made by alternating frames from 2 clips rendered at 100% speed interpolate deinterlace, one upper field first and one lower field first - no flicker.

The flicker has nothing to do with power supply, frequency, autofocus, auto knee, the camcorder, the adapter, the compression - It's a software render glitch affecting Vegas 5, Vegas 6 and probably others (McG says he uses Vegas). I rest my case. :)

[macgregor]

Hahahahaha. What a funny post. It is so interesting how people tries to get how some shots were done.

If you wanted to hear my answer this is it. I DONT KNOW YET WHY THIS IS HAPPENING.

"The flicker has nothing to do with power supply, frequency, autofocus, auto knee, the camcorder, the adapter, the compression - It's a software render glitch".

That is the truth. It has nothing to do with the G35. I started watching this effect with HDV content months before shooting Similo (that is when i tought it was a HDV fault), but DV content has shown to have the same problem. Some areas flicker.

I tried to slow down the footage from the 50i source with other software but i got the same result, so i did not blame Vegas for the problem.

The betaG35 is static. Vignetting happens some times.

The dust spot moving in the wide bed shot is caused by reframing done in vegas (animated crop).

[ASG]

Hahahahaha. What a funny post. It is so interesting how people tries to get how some shots were done.


It was more about trying to solve the flicker issue for me, it's something that I've had problems with for a while - and I've found a solution now since it is eliminated by alternating frames from two renders (it's easy to set up a mask to do this with the two clips on the tracks below) - give it a try Miguel it works!

Haha - fake camera shake, no one guessed that. I want to know how you did the glowing light overlays. :)

[macgregor]

Great, can you explain then how to create slow motions that do not flicker in Vegas? Is there an easy way?

[ASG]

I've only tried this once as shown on the clip I posted above but it seems to work.

Render your clip twice at 100% speed with interpolate deinterlace (or smart deinterlacer might give better res). Render once as lower field first, once as upper field first.

Create a project with three tracks, put generated media solid white on top track, one frame long, then copy it over and over so you have evey other frame white on the top track. Set composite mode to multiply mask.

On track two put the lower first render, parented to track one. Set the playback rate to 0.5 with disable resample.

On track three put the upper first rendered clip, one frame to the right. Set playback rate to 0.5 with disable resample.

Render this out as progressive with no deinterlace and it shouldn't flicker. It's a bit of a pain but you can save the project and you only need to do it on problematic clips.

[mike dawson]

VINGNETTING encroaching in the left corners like the ois is on would also make the dust move around or Maybe they zoomed out a bit also.

is this what dans Talking about maybe?

[macgregor]

Ok. i understood what you said before. Thanks. I was thinking if there was a better way to do this.
In the end you are cutting frame by frame, that is too much work.

[macgregor]

VINGNETTING encroaching in the left corners like the ois is on would also make the dust move around or Maybe they zoomed out a bit also.

is this what dans Talking about?


The OIS was on only the 2 first days of shooting, wich are the shoots on the road (not the close ups in the end, which were done in a different location).

All the indoor shooting that was done with the G35 was done with the OIS off.

[mike dawson]

OK maybe just the VINGNETTING encroaching in the left side of the frame that he saw?

[ASG]

Ok. i understood what you said before. Thanks. I was thinking if there was a better way to do this.
In the end you are cutting frame by frame, that is too much work.


The only frame by frame cutting is to set up the solid white every other frame, and you can copy those in blocks and save the project so you only need to do it once. The rest is just a matter of 3 renders. It takes a few minutes to fix a clip, worth it if the flicker annoys you enough. I'm sure this could be automated but that is beyond me :)

[insanityfw]

Macgregor, thanks for posting.

Despite the fact that it seems like people are picking at a very, VERY small element of your film there is no denying that the movie is a great piece of work ( I haven't heard otherwise from anybody). I would like to say congratulations on such a great film.

As for the technical issues I only noticed a couple of things that I can still not define and they in no way detracted from the viewing experience. It will be interesting to see what the final consensus is as it's good to keep learning.

Best regards,

Jason

[macgregor]

Thank you. By the way, for now on, use these 3 links for viewing the shortfilm:

www.macgregor.autoecstasy.com/similo.eng.mov

www.macgregor.autoecstasy.com/similo.esp.h264.mov

http://www.macgregor.autoecstasy.com/similoenglish.wmv

Thanks

[mike dawson]

There is a zoom out on the dvx100 hence the VINGNETTING encroaching and the dust moving in towards the middle of frame.

I did that a few times doing hand held my thumb on the handle servo

Back me up guys.

Please

[dan]

Thanks for stopping by MacGregor (and for your 2c). Nice flick btw!(no doubt about!)
If YOU (all the readers) want to keep this thread open and continue to discuss (and learn) is OK.
As long as nobody will have a different view about the editing's "side FX", the learning experience was great and beneficial to all. I will hold on the lenses till we all have an unanimously agreement (and I might upgrade the first prise from the 1.4/50 to a set of gears if the winner accepts it ! ! !) EVERYONE did a very good job, thank you all for participating.:love4:
I am very busy finalizing Felix (production unit) and I will not have the time to check back very often, sorry.
In terms of G35, my business partners and I decided not to share the movement with the G35 team (to avoid competition) but bring to you the original product (redesigned from the ground up by me, without any inspiration from any other image converters on the market and new features).
I hope in a few days to post some pictures of the new unit. It will work with a minimum of changes on popular cameras as well as SI. (yes the same unit). So, if you own a DVX or an HVX and your career cryies for an upgrade (SI?), the change will be painless.
Some food for the thought:
So... it looks like the footage straight from the camera is all good and clean till it ended up in postproduction were everything discussed went to hell, hey? What a shame....
In the good'ol'days, the word was: "don't worry....they'll fix it in post".
Looks like we're going backwards :2vrolijk_08:
:badputer: Dam' bad editing programs....:badputer:
Tz, tz, tz.....
:beer:

[mike dawson]

is it over?

[rawfa]

Thanks for stopping by MacGregor (and for your 2c). Nice flick btw!(no doubt about!)
If YOU (all the readers) want to keep this thread open and continue to discuss (and learn) is OK.
As long as nobody will have a different view about the editing's "side FX", the learning experience was great and beneficial to all. I will hold on the lenses till we all have an unanimously agreement (and I might upgrade the first prise from the 1.4/50 to a set of gears if the winner accepts it ! ! !) EVERYONE did a very good job, thank you all for participating.:love4:
I am very busy finalizing Felix (production unit) and I will not have the time to check back very often, sorry.
In terms of G35, my business partners and I decided not to share the movement with the G35 team (to avoid competition) but bring to you the original product (redesigned from the ground up by me, without any inspiration from any other image converters on the market and new features).
I hope in a few days to post some pictures of the new unit. It will work with a minimum of changes on popular cameras as well as SI. (yes the same unit). So, if you own a DVX or an HVX and your career cryies for an upgrade (SI?), the change will be painless.
Some food for the thought:
So... it looks like the footage straight from the camera is all good and clean till it ended up in postproduction were everything discussed went to hell, hey? What a shame....
In the good'ol'days, the word was: "don't worry....they'll fix it in post".
Looks like we're going backwards :2vrolijk_08:
:badputer: Dam' bad editing programs....:badputer:
Tz, tz, tz.....
:beer:

I wonder how this will affect the G35s' release. It is taking long enough as it is.

Hey Dan, how much is this new unit of yours going to cost?

[insanityfw]

Rawfa. Dan had mentioned on another thread that the goal was to keep the adapter (including rods and support) somewhere between $1250-1500 (give or take a bit).

Given the fact that the unit is going to be made from the best elements available if Dan gets near this pricepoint Felix should prove to be a formidable competitor in the crowded 35mm adapter market. The idea is to create an product that is the first choice for people in the market for a 35mm adapter. Give the best quality for a competitive price.

We should know fairly soon.

Best,

Jason

[rawfa]

Man, it does sound great! Keeps us informed, Dan. I'm really looking forward to seing some footage.

[delaro]

is it over?

yes ..... BUT ..... i'm offering $250.000 and my left kidney to the one who can answer to the following question:
What is the question?
good luck .....

just kidding.

i have a bad feeling about the g35 if jonathan houser is not working anymore with dan diaconu ....
this felix thing is very exciting.

[jennyD]

I was going through this thread and you said there was a winner...who was that winner and is there still a chance for 2nd and 3rd? I agree with the theory stated above about the vignetting. Thanks.

[insanityfw]

Dan, Dan The-Riddle-Man should be giving a bit more clarification by some time tomorrow (Wednesday).

[mike dawson]

1 more makes three

Thanks

[insanityfw]

1 more makes three

Thanks


.... :)

[JHouser]

Hello gang,
I received a phone call from Dan today gloating and asking me to check this thread out. I did, and found it quite interesting. As Macgregor already stated, there are no "smoke and mirrors". Let me dispel some rumors floating around. The unit Mac has is a static unit WITHOUT a Beattie screen (contrary to what Dan thinks). For some reason the plastic grocery bags at my local store look the best anyways. Any "artifacts" found are from the OIS (as Macgregor has already stated) or from 50i slo-mo anomalies. Vignetting is due to not zooming in far enough. Hope this helps clear things up. Dan, do I a lens now?

[mike dawson]

Because the slow mo anomalies were in various parts of Macgregor's film and the OIS, the only thing that is in the 4 seconds of the hallway is the encroaching vignetting. Dan, was this the first thing you noticed about the clip in the hallway? I am dying to know what your original observation was of the 4 second hallway shot.

[Ill Eagle]

The mystery man himself makes a cameo.........

[dan]

The mystery man himself makes a cameo.........
Leave personal remarks/allusions or suggestions out of this board please, or at least leave me out if it. It could rapidly degenerate, thank you.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............
Looking back and going over all post, I found no definite answer and definitely not a real consensus from all participants as what the causes WERE.

By the rules of the contest, we should all agree that "this-n-that" is the only possible explanation.

I did not see it happen so.. there ain't no winner.

There are a few theories, but each of them has flaws imo (and most of them are wild or educated guesses)

I (since I started the contest) would go by the film maker's (cameraman/editor) best guess:

I don't know
and end this quest here.

We could (alternatively) all continue to read, argue and speculate here till "the screens come home" and get nowhere.

I am confident when Jonathan will have updates for you, he will definitely let you know without any useless pressure and gossip from the public.

[mike dawson]

thats not any fun no winner.

[Jarred Land]

and its over.. this never was a official contest so i dont know what went wrong, but can see this going in a very bad direction, so its closed.